Mark based threat working for GWFs?

germmaniac · October 2014

Not sure if anyone has discussed this here in the forums a lot (but could not find any recent threads on this topic); my apologies if I am missing some already existing thread on this. But as a GWF, I somehow do not seem to be able to generate or hold threat with Marks. Although I am a Swordmaster/Destroyer build, I am trying to optimize mark-based damage (using 4 points in Powerful Challenge and Daring Shout as a part of my regular rotation) and try to perform the role of an off tank or sometimes solitary tank (Yes, yes..I get it GWFs aren't supposed to be the sole tanks..but even an off tank should have a chance at grabbing/holding aggro).

While I had not tested it on Preview, nor do I use ACT, I am unable to feel the threat. If I understand correctly, the Marks are supposed to put me on the top of the Threat table (or did they change that). However, I rarely seem to gain the intended aggro, even when I am the sole tank, especially with a CW or SW around (or worse an HR), which is pretty much most PvE groups.

So my question here is, are Marks working as intended? If they are supposed to throw me at the top of the threat list, how long is it expected to hold me at the top of that list? Do I lose aggro immediately as soon as someone attacks the marked mobs- that would be pointless. Marks seem to last the intended 20 seconds or so. Do Marks work more effectively for GFs (non-Tab based) or Iron Vanguard GWFs (Not sure why it should, although I see Threatening rush is getting fixed this week) in terms of threat-generation?

And no, I am not discussing Mark based damage here. I have not tested that yet, but I don't seem to be seeing too much complaining about it (and pretty sure there would be a lot considering that is a lot of dps lost..or maybe my search for threads was not thorough enough).

Note to Mods: Please feel free to move it to GWF thread if you feel that is more appropriate. I left it here for the general community to discuss. Besides, there may be observations on the part of non-GWF players too which may be significant.

ortzhy · October 2014

i am full sentinel using all threat skills and cant hold anything, so our marks arent doing much... I guess they want to sell those threat companions:)

gentlemancrush · October 2014

Marks do move you to the top of the threat table, but they are not a traditional "Hard Taunt" that forces the mob to look at you for 6 seconds as well. In general after Marking you will need to lay on the hurt to keep that threat lead (which is currently only 10%). This is one of the major reasons GWF Marks no longer fall off from damage.

colonelwing · October 2014

gentlemancrush wrote: »

Marks do move you to the top of the threat table, but they are not a traditional "Hard Taunt" that forces the mob to look at you for 6 seconds as well. In general after Marking you will need to lay on the hurt to keep that threat lead (which is currently only 10%). This is one of the major reasons GWF Marks no longer fall off from damage.

So basically it is the same as in champions online, right?

germmaniac · October 2014

gentlemancrush wrote: »

Marks do move you to the top of the threat table, but they are not a traditional "Hard Taunt" that forces the mob to look at you for 6 seconds as well. In general after Marking you will need to lay on the hurt to keep that threat lead (which is currently only 10%). This is one of the major reasons GWF Marks no longer fall off from damage.

Thanks for the quick response, Crush. Much appreciated.

Also trying to understand how threat currently works based on what you have just explained(please forgive me if this has already been shared and I am overlooking it). Also using hard numbers, albeit hypothetical, to understand how it works in certain scenarios.

Case1:
GWF does w amount of damage generating 50 Threat.
CW does x amount of damage generating 100 Threat.
SW does y amount of damage generating 150 Threat.
HR does z amount of damage generating 200 Threat.
If a GWF were to use unfeated Daring Shout (not using Threatening rush or IBS here for example, since they will deal damage as well) to Mark targets at this point, would the GWFs threat jump to 220 (200+20) to get to the Top of the table?

Case 2:
GWF does w amount of damage generating 50 Threat.
CW does x amount of damage generating 100 Threat.
SW does y amount of damage generating 150 Threat.
HR does z amount of damage generating 200 Threat.
If a GWF were to use a damage dealing skill to Mark such as Threatening Rush to do t amount of damage generating another 50 Threat, would the GWFs Threat be at 220 or 270? The question here is, will the Threat from damage be added after the GWF has already jumped to the top of the List or factor in before?

Case 3 (May already get answered if/when case 2 is explained):
If ever there was a scenario where the GWF was already at 190 Threat (with threat of other members as is, displayed above) and the damage of Threatening Rush creates the 50 Threat but also Marks simultaneously, what would the end result of the GWF be?
a)220 (200+10%), b)240 (190+50), c) 260 (240+10% of 200)

Would it ever be possible for Devs to actually display the threat generation numbers (Overall) along with the others stats such as "Paingiver" (Yes, I am wondering how helpful this will be as well, but just a thought..if people can modify their gameplay/strategy around these numbers)? Also, if a Hard Taunt from a GF is on mobs, would the Threat generated by Marking jump you to the Top of the Threat table and distract mobs off the GF?

Edit: Edited for typo for the word "stats".

germmaniac · October 2014

germmaniac wrote: »

Thanks for the quick response, Crush. Much appreciated.

Also trying to understand how threat currently works based on what you have just explained(please forgive me if this has already been shared and I am overlooking it). Also using hard numbers, albeit hypothetical, to understand how it works in certain scenarios.

Case1:
GWF does w amount of damage generating 50 Threat.
CW does x amount of damage generating 100 Threat.
SW does y amount of damage generating 150 Threat.
HR does z amount of damage generating 200 Threat.
If a GWF were to use unfeated Daring Shout (not using Threatening rush or IBS here for example, since they will deal damage as well) to Mark targets at this point, would the GWFs threat jump to 220 (200+20) to get to the Top of the table?

Case 2:
GWF does w amount of damage generating 50 Threat.
CW does x amount of damage generating 100 Threat.
SW does y amount of damage generating 150 Threat.
HR does z amount of damage generating 200 Threat.
If a GWF were to use a damage dealing skill to Mark such as Threatening Rush to do t amount of damage generating another 50 Threat, would the GWFs Threat be at 220 or 270? The question here is, will the Threat from damage be added after the GWF has already jumped to the top of the List or factor in before?

Case 3 (May already get answered if/when case 2 is explained):
If ever there was a scenario where the GWF was already at 190 Threat (with threat of other members as is, displayed above) and the damage of Threatening Rush creates the 50 Threat but also Marks simultaneously, what would the end result of the GWF be?
a)220 (200+10%), b)240 (190+50), c) 260 (240+10% of 200)

Would it ever be possible for Devs to actually display the threat generation numbers (Overall) along with the others tsats such as "Paingiver" (Yes, I am wondering how helpful this will be as well, but just a thought..if people can modify their gameplay/strategy around these numbers)? Also, if a Hard Taunt from a GF is on mobs, would the Threat generated by Marking jump you to the Top of the Threat table and distract mobs off the GF?

Hoping I have not completely gone off the tracks here and misunderstood your explanation completely.

gentlemancrush · October 2014

Not at all. Threat can be mildly confusing. This might be a good chance to shine some light on how threat works.

As far as critters are concerned there are 3 kinds of threat.

Damage - You gain 1 point of this when you deal 1 point of damage.
Healing - You gain 1 point of this when you heal an ally for 1 point of damage. This threat is divided by the number of foes you are in combat with. So if I heal an ally for 1000 and there are ten foes, each would get 100.
Threat - You gain 1 point of this when we use a special command to cause you to generate threat. Many of your powers that generate bonus threat use this, and it should be treated exactly like damage except that you can't see it

Given this, your current threat on a target is pretty simple.

D + H + T = Hate (a shorthand name we use for your threat value).

Now, if you have the most Hate on a target (or are the foe's current target more specifically) your calculation changes slightly.

It becomes (D + H + T) * 1.1 = Hate.

This is what we commonly refer to as the "threshold". When you gain aggro on a mob you immediately gain a 10% threshold that the next person has to surpass before they take threat back from you. Now this is why Mark works the way it does. It gives you the highest threat on the list, and then forces the mob to give you that threshold, which puts you 10% above anyone else. This is why allowing tanks to establish a "threat lead" is a pretty important practice (otherwise you get mobs ping ponging until they have enough threat for that threshold to be meaningful).

It is important to note that Mark actually sets all of your values, rather than adding some amount to get you to the top of the list, so in theory even if I have no threat on a target Mark will still allow me to draw aggro on them, and then keeping it is requisite on me dealing enough Damage+Threat to keep that threshold.

In practice this means that to pull a target off another player, you really need them to stop hitting it momentarily while you build threat, or they will just immediately pull it back and get that 10% threshold on you, putting them in danger.

Hopefully that clarifies threat a little more! Show your tanks some love, let them get threat

beckylunatic · October 2014

gentlemancrush wrote: »

In practice this means that to pull a target off another player, you really need them to stop hitting it momentarily while you build threat, or they will just immediately pull it back and get that 10% threshold on you, putting them in danger.

This is also illustrated by how when there is nobody with marks in their toolkit on the scene, DPSa may go for a long time without peeling aggro from DPSb, but as soon as DPSb makes a mistake and falls, aggro is switched to DPSa. (This is why when I am "tanking" a dragon, no matter what class I'm playing, I'd love to go pick fallen people up but you're really better off if I don't.)

And why multiple GFs generating threat on a dragon from all sides is a very bad thing.

Very useful information Crush, thanks. I understood threat to a degree from observation but a better understanding of the underlying mechanics should mean I can work with it even better.

germmaniac · October 2014

gentlemancrush wrote: »

Not at all. Threat can be mildly confusing. This might be a good chance to shine some light on how threat works.

As far as critters are concerned there are 3 kinds of threat.
Damage - You gain 1 point of this when you deal 1 point of damage.

Healing - You gain 1 point of this when you heal an ally for 1 point of damage. This threat is divided by the number of foes you are in combat with. So if I heal an ally for 1000 and there are ten foes, each would get 100.

Threat - You gain 1 point of this when we use a special command to cause you to generate threat. Many of your powers that generate bonus threat use this, and it should be treated exactly like damage except that you can't see it

Given this, your current threat on a target is pretty simple.

D + H + T = Hate (a shorthand name we use for your threat value).

Now, if you have the most Hate on a target (or are the foe's current target more specifically) your calculation changes slightly.

It becomes (D + H + T) * 1.1 = Hate.

This is what we commonly refer to as the "threshold". When you gain aggro on a mob you immediately gain a 10% threshold that the next person has to surpass before they take threat back from you. Now this is why Mark works the way it does. It gives you the highest threat on the list, and then forces the mob to give you that threshold, which puts you 10% above anyone else. This is why allowing tanks to establish a "threat lead" is a pretty important practice (otherwise you get mobs ping ponging until they have enough threat for that threshold to be meaningful).

It is important to note that Mark actually sets all of your values, rather than adding some amount to get you to the top of the list, so in theory even if I have no threat on a target Mark will still allow me to draw aggro on them, and then keeping it is requisite on me dealing enough Damage+Threat to keep that threshold.

In practice this means that to pull a target off another player, you really need them to stop hitting it momentarily while you build threat, or they will just immediately pull it back and get that 10% threshold on you, putting them in danger.

Hopefully that clarifies threat a little more! Show your tanks some love, let them get threat

Thanks again for the detailed explanation on Threat and Hate mechanics. Makes sense that you would generate a number individually for each mob, so guess my scenarios were a bit too simplistic to account for all scenarios. I am still chewing on some of the concepts you have just explained, but if I do come up with queries, I'll be sure to add them here.

Had actually forgotten to ask how much threat x amount of damage or heals causes, so great that you added that in as well. Cheers

query523 · October 2014

This needs to be pinned because so many people, even a lot of tanks, do not understand the threat mechanic.

theoddis1 · October 2014

I really appreciate the explanation of threat good stuff .
I was also wondering if there is a fix in the works for the GWF mark only marking one target?

theosymphany · October 2014

gentlemancrush wrote: »

Not at all. Threat can be mildly confusing. This might be a good chance to shine some light on how threat works.

As far as critters are concerned there are 3 kinds of threat.
Damage - You gain 1 point of this when you deal 1 point of damage.

Healing - You gain 1 point of this when you heal an ally for 1 point of damage. This threat is divided by the number of foes you are in combat with. So if I heal an ally for 1000 and there are ten foes, each would get 100.

Thank you for sharing this info. I have a few follow on questions regarding threat that I'd love to get answered.

Damage threat:
1. You mentioned the formula for threat on a target. How does this interact when there are multiple targets? Is it possible to get damage threat on something you never touched personally when attacking other targets? (eg Let's say there is a boss and 5 minions. If player only attacks the boss will he only score threat against the boss or will the other mobs also get the threshold (but with zero points).

Healing threat:
2. You mention healing an 'ally', does that include self? If I use sunburst and heal both self and ally for say 500 points each with 1 mob in the room does that mean I have 1000 points of healing threat?
3. Is the healing restricted to encounters/abilities/feats that procs healing?
4. Does it include regen, lifesteal, artifact/gear set/enchantment procs?
5. Is temp HP treated the same as healing?

Proximity treat:
6. You didn't mention this but is there such a thing a proximity threat? Is that an actual numerical value or just determines who gets threshold first? I know in zones simply by entering and loitering in a mob's zone of control you will pull threat. How does this relate to dungeons. If a mob spawn next to you will you already gain the threshold? In Frozen Heart for example golems tend to chase the one closest to them even if their damage/healing output is low or on a different target.

AoEs:
7. On say a boss fight, will the boss always target the player with highest combined threat or will they prefer to use AoE or abilities that can strike down multiple other players who are on the threat table but are not the highest. Is it dependent on the combined threat values (plus 10% threshold) of those players?

Looking forward to hearing more.

theoddis1 · October 2014

beckylunatic wrote: »

(This is why when I am "tanking" a dragon, no matter what class I'm playing, I'd love to go pick fallen people up but you're really better off if I don't.)

I second this with great enthusiasm
when I am tanking on my GWF in a dungeon (pug) I have been yelled at for not picking people up but
1. I am a lifesteal tank (IV destro) if I stop swinging my beatstick I die... apart from when I am unstoppable but even then its risky
2. I will lose threat
3. I will pull a whole bunch of ugly on top of you so that as soon as you rez if you dont pot and dodge immediately you will die again

query523 · October 2014

theoddis1 wrote: »

I second this with great enthusiasm
when I am tanking on my GWF in a dungeon (pug) I have been yelled at for not picking people up but
1. I am a lifesteal tank (IV destro) if I stop swinging my beatstick I die... apart from when I am unstoppable but even then its risky
2. I will lose threat
3. I will pull a whole bunch of ugly on top of you so that as soon as you rez if you dont pot and dodge immediately you will die again

Dungeon =/= dragon. Against a dragon res time is usually enough that you will get hit by something really nasty if you stop. Normal (epic) dungeoun I use unstoppable (or villians menace on my GF) to pick people up if there is an 'oopsie'. Also if you are IV you can use FLS to clear the nasties away from your fallen comrade.

germmaniac · October 2014

theoddis1 wrote: »

I really appreciate the explanation of threat good stuff .
I was also wondering if there is a fix in the works for the GWF mark only marking one target?

Think it was fixed in this last patch, wasn't it?

germmaniac · October 2014

theoddis1 wrote: »

I second this with great enthusiasm
when I am tanking on my GWF in a dungeon (pug) I have been yelled at for not picking people up but
1. I am a lifesteal tank (IV destro) if I stop swinging my beatstick I die... apart from when I am unstoppable but even then its risky
2. I will lose threat
3. I will pull a whole bunch of ugly on top of you so that as soon as you rez if you dont pot and dodge immediately you will die again

Since I dont have aggro I usually tend to risk it and Ress people. Although with my current rotation with Daring Shout, I do have to worry about this a bit more

beckylunatic · October 2014

@kaelac
Proximity threat was removed at some point while they were reworking stuff, so it's no longer a factor. Sorry I don't have a link to specific notes.

@ dragon rezzing
I will rez people if I can do so safely if I'm not holding threat. When I do have aggro, I need to not drop focus from that. If I lose DPS-based threat to someone else, chances are pretty good that they won't be as skilled as I am in keeping the dragon pointed in one direction, which makes the fight go worse for everyone there.

epclipseingmoon · October 2014

for gwfs daring shout needs to be a hard threat over some silly system afterall gwfs are off tanks we may not do damage with daring but the caster should be target number 1 for atleast a few secs doing nothing like gfs enforced threat.

beckylunatic · October 2014

It would be cool if it did work as a hard taunt.

germmaniac · October 2014

epclipseingmoon wrote: »

for gwfs daring shout needs to be a hard threat over some silly system afterall gwfs are off tanks we may not do damage with daring but the caster should be target number 1 for atleast a few secs doing nothing like gfs enforced threat.

While I feel what you are saying, I am not sure if DS will ever be made into a hard threat or taunt. As an AoE, it would probably even aggro too much more than an off tank can handle.

However, I do feel it could use some buff (probably weak DoT effect, even when unfeated..feated in Sentinel tree will increase DoT effect or cause more DPS) or a Cooldown reduction. Currently, if Threatening Rush is indeed fixed and can AoE mark, SM paragon is again at a huge disadvantage, where they have to sacrifice an Encounter Slot to be able to Mark.

germmaniac · October 2014

beckylunatic wrote: »

@kaelac
Proximity threat was removed at some point while they were reworking stuff, so it's no longer a factor. Sorry I don't have a link to specific notes.

If Proximity threat was indeed 0, would you be able to aggro mobs at all by moving in-range of their radar? While I understand that his point is more related to threat based on who is closest, but there must be some initial value of threat that a person gains when it gets in range of an aggroable mob for the mob to chase the player/companion?

germmaniac · October 2014

gentlemancrush wrote: »

It becomes (D + H + T) * 1.1 = Hate.

This is what we commonly refer to as the "threshold". When you gain aggro on a mob you immediately gain a 10% threshold that the next person has to surpass before they take threat back from you. Now this is why Mark works the way it does. It gives you the highest threat on the list, and then forces the mob to give you that threshold, which puts you 10% above anyone else. This is why allowing tanks to establish a "threat lead" is a pretty important practice (otherwise you get mobs ping ponging until they have enough threat for that threshold to be meaningful).

It is important to note that Mark actually sets all of your values, rather than adding some amount to get you to the top of the list, so in theory even if I have no threat on a target Mark will still allow me to draw aggro on them, and then keeping it is requisite on me dealing enough Damage+Threat to keep that threshold.

I am still unsure if Marks are working as intended, in terms of the threat/hate mechanics. Did a few eSOT runs with the following group setup:
2x GWF (both SM/Destroyers, including me) 2x CWs and 1DC
The other GWF was not using DS (only IBS based Marks) but had much higher DPS than me (think I saw his Power shoot up to 12k ranges while I am around 7.5k-9k range, depending on buffs and set effects).
However, I could rarely make the Boss turn toward me (Yes, I seek attention at times

) when I marked him.

So my first follow-up question here would be: What do you mean that the Mark sets up all the values? Is it a hard reset of the overall threat to the mob (or Hate value)?
So if I am the sole person Marking the mob, everyone else has their Hate value set to 1x (wrt this mob/boss) and I get a value of 1.1x and they will need to overcome the 0.1x lead I have to pull aggro off me? (Is my understanding correct?)

If this is indeed the case, what is the value of x?

The reason why I am curious about the value of x is (if not obvious), what is order of magnitude a person would have to outdps/outheal someone to pull off aggro. eg: If x was 1000, the other GWF would have to do 101 more damage than me to the mob to pull it off (would be way too easy).

Again, I understand the answer may not be as simple, but would love some clarity on this concept.

germmaniac · October 2014

germmaniac wrote: »

I am still unsure if Marks are working as intended, in terms of the threat/hate mechanics. Did a few eSOT runs with the following group setup:
2x GWF (both SM/Destroyers, including me) 2x CWs and 1DC
The other GWF was not using DS (only IBS based Marks) but had much higher DPS than me (think I saw his Power shoot up to 12k ranges while I am around 7.5k-9k range, depending on buffs and set effects).
However, I could rarely make the Boss turn toward me (Yes, I seek attention at times ) when I marked him.

So my first follow-up question here would be: What do you mean that the Mark sets up all the values? Is it a hard reset of the overall threat to the mob (or Hate value)?
So if I am the sole person Marking the mob, everyone else has their Hate value set to 1x (wrt this mob/boss) and I get a value of 1.1x and they will need to overcome the 0.1x lead I have to pull aggro off me? (Is my understanding correct?)

If this is indeed the case, what is the value of x?

The reason why I am curious about the value of x is (if not obvious), what is order of magnitude a person would have to outdps/outheal someone to pull off aggro. eg: If x was 1000, the other GWF would have to do 100 more damage to the mob to pull it off (would be way too easy).

Again, I understand the answer may not be as simple, but would love some clarity on this concept.

Also, another question that comes to mind is, do Hate/Threat/Mark mechanics change for Bosses? Have had similar experience as my eSOT runs with Dragon or other Open world bosses.

theoddis1 · October 2014

germmaniac wrote: »

Think it was fixed in this last patch, wasn't it?

threatening rush only marks one target currently
dairing shout as far as i know marks mutiple.

beckylunatic · October 2014

Yesterday's patch fixed Threatening Rush to mark AoE for GWFs.

theoddis1 · October 2014

beckylunatic wrote: »

Yesterday's patch fixed Threatening Rush to mark AoE for GWFs.

oh wow i guess it is ... ill shut up now lol

fdsakhfduewhfiuf · October 2014

gentlemancrush wrote: »

Not at all. Threat can be mildly confusing. This might be a good chance to shine some light on how threat works.

I wonder how thread reduction works. Assuming my threat is reduced by 6% due to some feat do I get a hate value of 0.94 * (D * H * T)?

nazghul22 · October 2014

germmaniac wrote: »

But as a GWF

We feel for you. We really do.

germmaniac · October 2014

nazghul22 wrote: »

We feel for you. We really do.

Huh? If that was sarcasm, it isn't transmitted too well over the internet unless you wrap it between [sarcasm] [/sarcasm].
Anything worth contributing?

germmaniac · October 2014

Any other GWFs that have tried Marks for grabbing or holding aggro think it works? Holding aggro would require consistent dps, but grabbing aggro should not. If everyone stop attacking the mob/boss and the GWF marks it, it should ideally switch aggro to GWF, as per the explanation given earlier. Anyone would like to try/report back their finding?

Mark based threat working for GWFs?

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