I don't consider the freeze fix a PVP fix since you can kill most people in PVP without freezing them twice. I think it's intended to discourage CW stacking in PVE.
The "huge gap" isn't between Oppressor and Thaum, it's between any CW and any other class (besides SW), and it's still a problem even with this fix because who cares if stacking CWs means less control- other classes can't control better nor do better dps.
Since you are stating it in a nice way please forgive me if i do not come across as such. Sorry but a good HR will get with a thaum in PVE. And i don't think any honest HR or CW will dispute that. Because in the new content there are not very many mobs. (this may be the only reason don't really know. I have no reason to run the previous stuff. Not saying that arrogantly just honestly.) The gap is within the CW path. I don't really want to talk about other classes but if you wish to we can. HR is not hurting at the moment :-). But im sure if you keep going you will get alot of "hate spam" about HR and how its broken in many areas. This is about the CW I wish for people to be able to play more than just 1 path.
Since you are stating it in a nice way please forgive me if i do not come across as such. Sorry but a good HR will get with a thaum in PVE. And i don't think any honest HR or CW will dispute that. Because in the new content there are not very many mobs. (this may be the only reason don't really know. I have no reason to run the previous stuff. Not saying that arrogantly just honestly.) The gap is within the CW path. I don't really want to talk about other classes but if you wish to we can. HR is not hurting at the moment :-). But im sure if you keep going you will get alot of "hate spam" about HR and how its broken in many areas. This is about the CW I wish for people to be able to play more than just 1 path.
If HR is so great for PVE why do I see lf4m CWs and not lf4m HRs (or TRs, or GFs or GWFs). The reason is that currently CW is by far the best at controlling and at least tied for top for dps. Stacking them only makes this even better. Hopefully the changes will help with that.
Ideally CW dps should be lower than the pure dps classes (HR/TR) because even with this nerf they're still by far the best at control (even with other CWs in the party), but that's not likely to happen.
As for having only 1 spec line that's viable, 1: it's not true oppressor still brings more support and respectible dps, and 2: welcome to the club- almost every class has only 1 viable spec.
My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited September 2014
it's between any CW and any other class
No. Even in mod 3, GWFs weren't far behind CWs. Now only thaums, and maybe oppressors, (I don't think I know any oppressors) are way ahead of TR, GWF, SW, and HR in mod 4.
No. Even in mod 3, GWFs weren't far behind CWs. Now only thaums, and maybe oppressors, (I don't think I know any oppressors) are way ahead of TR, GWF, SW, and HR in mod 4.
Honestly I couldn't care less about renegades. Every class in the game has a useless spec line. It's a shame but it's not at all unusual.
I mean honestly if you're biggest complaint is that you can't be an OP class in all three spec lines, then you're doing pretty well.
The point is the game is not fully enjoyable for most people because they have a hard time getting into groups. You don't have to nerf CWs to get them viable, but it's easier than buffing all the other classes.
My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited September 2014
Honestly I couldn't care less about renegades
Obviously, and neither does anyone but renegades. Just like you're the only one who cares about you.
I mean honestly if you're biggest complaint is that you can't be an OP class in all three spec lines, then you're doing pretty well.
No. My complaint is that I can't compete with them at all, because of cry babies. My complaint is that I've spent a lot of time and money perfecting him, buying gear and companions to match my renegade play style, and now it's all for nothing. My stuff does not match a thaums play style.This game is a businesses, and when other businesses promise you one thing, and give you another, they get in trouble for it.
Anyone who can't find a group is looking in the wrong places.
Anyone who can't find a group is looking in the wrong places.
Certainly not the looking for group channel, because all anyone wants there is CWs.
As for your sob story, classes change all the time in MMOs. Nothing is permanent. What about an HR that was specced for healing. WE DON'T EVEN HAVE A HEALING TREE ANYMORE. That's not the only example, every class has gone through it.
Obviously, and neither does anyone but renegades. Just like you're the only one who cares about you.
The point is CWs dominate PVE to the point of exclusion of other classes and they make content a total joke. "Yes but we can't do it in all 3 spec lines" is not a counter argument or even relevant.
If HR is so great for PVE why do I see lf4m CWs and not lf4m HRs (or TRs, or GFs or GWFs).
People are dumb though lol.
I outdpsed lots of CWs these days in the new skirmish, with my Combat HR, with PvP gear. There were just a few 18-20K CWs with 9-10K Power that were outDPSing me consistently, somewhat about twice my DPS. Which they should, since I was in bad spec, bad gear and have 16-17K GS or so, and no PvE companions besides a cheap stone with r7s on it.
People are stuck with the "LF3M CWs for CN, have HV set" mindset from a year ago. Many things changed. Now GFs, SWs, HRs, GWFs can all be awesome in PvE. I hope the changes to TR and DC will offer them more opportunities as well.
I apologize for a wall of text in advance. It all relates to Renegade specifically, so if you don't care skip it. TL;DR Renegade is the CW version of a debuff DC.
Ok, so I went back once again and tried out a bunch of different options for making a Renegade on test server. One thing that I did not test, that I should have, is pairing Shadow Weaver with Renegade on a MoF. Shadow Weaver, as many will point out, is a generally subpar 4/4 set with it's internal cooldown. It does, however, have a lot of critical rating. More than you can use, in fact, but it pairs well with everything else from Renegade. At a higher GS High Vizier's is still probably better but it isn't possible to get enough crit rating that way until you have all of the crit rating boons in my opinion. So Shadow Weaver is training wheels until you're at tip-top GS it seems to me.
What I found is that when Nexus proc's from Chaos Magic, wearing Shadow Weaver, it gives me roughly a 45% crit rate with a 173% critical damage when using a P.Vorpal. (The added ArP is basically wasted, but hey 10% extra crit rate.)
Alternatively, P.Plaguefire will stack with your Swath and Bitter Cold for an 80% mitigation debuff and Chaotic Fury will tack on another 10% damage & some extra lifesteal that stacks with Shadow Weaver. (The LS is basically valueless since everyone has a lot of it, but it's a thing it does if you care.)
So there are options within Renegade still. The fact does remain that it is very random and is not sustainable in the same way that Thaumaturge or Oppressor are. Chaos Magic is quite definitely a big deal for everyone on your team but since you have no idea what it will do from one moment to the next it makes this option occasionally awesome but normally hard to notice.
Nexus is as close as you'll get to EotS for a MoF. (There is also some sort of glitch where you can have two Chaos Magic effects. Possibly three although I didn't see that happen. No idea what was causing it but it seemed to happen most when using Ray of Frost with lots of DoT's active.)
Even with all of this, Nightmare Wizardry still needs to have at least a 10% proc rate. As it stands it usually goes off on one thing, proc's Phantasmal, and everything is dead before either have much of a chance to do anything. Big single-targets are virtually the only thing it works on at the moment and even then it is unreliable. During the clear you'll get very little use out of 10 feat points, but perhaps that's where Cryptic wants it.
Even if Nightmare Wizardry was a 100% chance to proc it is still overall less useful than Frozen Power Transfer which provides a flat 15% bonus to damage. If you have a 25 CHA they break even but only if the proc rate was 100%.
Either way I'm back to Renegade spec. The downsides are many, it doesn't do the same damage as Thaum, but in my opinion it is still more useful than Oppressor in PvE simply as a force multiplier on team damage paired with other CW who also have high CHA. Death is, after all, the most potent CC.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited September 2014
Anyone who even reads the LFG channel deserves what they get. Thats where the stupid people are.
The point is CWs dominate PVE to the point of exclusion of other classes and they make content a total joke. "Yes but we can't do it in all 3 spec lines" is not a counter argument or even relevant.
No. only Thaums do that, and they're doing it with Assailant and Storm Spell. If 5 DCs can clear dungeons, any combination can.
I get out DPSed by every class but DCs and GFs now, but I don't run to those class forums to whine and cry for nerfs.
Anyone who even reads the LFG channel deserves what they get. Thats where the stupid people are.
No. only Thaums do that, and they're doing it with Assailant and Storm Spell. If 5 DCs can clear dungeons, any combination can.
I get out DPSed by every class but DCs and GFs now, but I don't run to those class forums to whine and cry for nerfs.
/LFG is the built in chat channel to find groups. There's nothing dumb about people using it, they just want the fastest and easiest runs possible, and for that you want CWs- as many as you can get. I don't know if things will change much but this game is the most broken balance-wise that I've ever seen in all my years gaming. It's good that they at least are looking to address it even if today's changes won't solve the problem; at least it's a step.
As for getting out-dpsed, well I can't help it if you refuse to respec. But that's totally on you and has nothing to do with class balance, and what's more it has very little to do with this thread. Renegade doesn't even use chill so it's affected by this change the least of all the trees.
My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited September 2014
If nobody but CWs can find groups in it, then it's dumb for anyone but CWs to use it, don't you think?
I did respec, thank you very much.
Renegade doesn't even use chill so it's affected by this change the least of all the trees.
Many, if not all, Renegades use chill. In fact, we have to now, because Arcane powers were all trashed.
If nobody but CWs can find groups in it, then it's dumb for anyone but CWs to use it, don't you think?
It's not dumb, it's "basically impossible". But that's not because of the players, it's because there's no reason to pick anything but a CW for groups.
Hamlet, stop your anti-CW whining. It's getting old. Want to find a group in /LFG on your HR? It's not "basically impossible". Grab some GS-padding gear and advertise yourself as "21k HR LFG ToS speed run exp only plz!!!" You will absolutely find a group. Want to find a group without resorting to GS padding and speed running? Then look for a group elsewhere, such as in /legit or within your guild. Unless your guild is full of a bunch of CW snobs, you'll find helpful people who don't care about astronomical GS's or clearing dungeons in a minimal amount of time by stacking CWs, and who just want to get through dungeons in a reasonable time while having an enjoyable experience and maybe get some loot. Do you want to be able to speed-run through dungeons with a 5xHR party at the same rate as a 5xCW party? That won't ever happen *due to the nature of the dungeon design itself*. Deal with it. But stop using your anti-CW chip on your shoulder as an excuse to get all of the other CWs nerfed.
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited September 2014
Try doing LoL or Shores with 5 CWs....or even 3. It's no speed run, that's for sure. There really is no reason to have 1.
It's not dumb, it's "basically impossible". But that's not because of the players, it's because there's no reason to pick anything but a CW for groups.
Of course it's because of the players. There is no other reason. Do yourself a favor and turn that channel off.
Actually I run CN old way (GWFs, CWs and a SW) and it was fail. Once you get more end game SWs you will not need a CW anymore. SWs will outdps every class by far.
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems!
And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
Actually I run CN old way (GWFs, CWs and a SW) and it was fail. Once you get more end game SWs you will not need a CW anymore. SWs will outdps every class by far.
I presume you're aware that the SW feeds off the damage of every other team mate? So without the high damage CW the SW doesn't actually do that much from what I've seen. That doesn't mean I have an opinion about them one way or the other but I doubt you'll see a lot of 5x SW teams forming up without even one Control Wizard. If anything it makes more sense to just bring one SW with lots of CW since you only really need one TT but you need lots of damage to feed it.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Try doing LoL or Shores with 5 CWs....or even 3. It's no speed run, that's for sure. There really is no reason to have 1.
Of course it's because of the players. There is no other reason. Do yourself a favor and turn that channel off.
Whilst playing a GF i find having atleast 1 CW makes it so much easier. Those mobs can easily make my GF go splat (has close to 50k hp) with a CW stunning/ccing i have enough breathing space to heal myself up.
When I'm pugging and there is neither a healer or CW I leave the group. It's just too much of a headache running it without one.
Whilst playing a GF i find having atleast 1 CW makes it so much easier. Those mobs can easily make my GF go splat (has close to 50k hp) with a CW stunning/ccing i have enough breathing space to heal myself up.
When I'm pugging and there is neither a healer or CW I leave the group. It's just too much of a headache running it without one.
I play an CW Oppressor, prefer PvE and look to use party based support elements in my build such as Enfeeblement & Greater Plaguefire, Time steal etc. To be blunt I always look to have a fighter type (agro, meat shield, dps etc.) and a DC (healing, protection etc.) in a party if possible. Particularly for the new Skirmish shore of T. if you don't have a balanced party your chances of success are badly reduced. In fact I prefer diversity. So here is what I think two of the issues are... firstly there seems to be no imperative reason for taking a rogue/stealth type character... in other games the rogue specialises in removing 'lethal traps'... if NW wants to address the balance then a mechanism that throws in the need for TR's (such as trap dis-arming, spotting hidden etc.) IMO would help. Secondly this will potentially be unpopular... for me the nerf/dps/CC argument in CW (and other builds) miss a fundamental point... I attempt to balance my build with survivability... this is a habit from playing lots of RPG (e.g. DnD, Cult of C etc.) over the years. Death is quick to any wizard who does not think about defence as well as offence... but in NW the penalty for death (PvE) in most cases is non-existent. My theory is simple - make death more unpleasant/prohibitive and a lot of builds (CW and other) will suddenly have to think about survival and will begin to self-balance. A 'glass-cannon' one-rotation-kills-all type build needs a counterbalance... in most RPGs it is death!
And of course the moment a new thread comes up,asking for some short of Cw positive change, the usual people,we all know,that don't even play a Cw,most of the time,pop up crying for more nerfs. Well if it was up to me i would ban for a few days anyone who is spamming the threads,with more than 5 nerf requests ,per day,for any given class . Having said that I'd like to state that the oppressor path has indeed become unattractive and feels lacking,so basically it all comes down to Thauma. I would suggest moving the Chilling Control feat higher,from tier 2 to tier 3 so that it's accessible only to those investing in the oppressor tree,but even that would be a minor fix in my view. Control Wizards are the Masters of Control,so in a game where CC immunity is abundant it doesn't make much sense to nerf the Control Aspect of CONTROL Wizards.
Comments
Since you are stating it in a nice way please forgive me if i do not come across as such. Sorry but a good HR will get with a thaum in PVE. And i don't think any honest HR or CW will dispute that. Because in the new content there are not very many mobs. (this may be the only reason don't really know. I have no reason to run the previous stuff. Not saying that arrogantly just honestly.) The gap is within the CW path. I don't really want to talk about other classes but if you wish to we can. HR is not hurting at the moment :-). But im sure if you keep going you will get alot of "hate spam" about HR and how its broken in many areas. This is about the CW I wish for people to be able to play more than just 1 path.
If HR is so great for PVE why do I see lf4m CWs and not lf4m HRs (or TRs, or GFs or GWFs). The reason is that currently CW is by far the best at controlling and at least tied for top for dps. Stacking them only makes this even better. Hopefully the changes will help with that.
Ideally CW dps should be lower than the pure dps classes (HR/TR) because even with this nerf they're still by far the best at control (even with other CWs in the party), but that's not likely to happen.
As for having only 1 spec line that's viable, 1: it's not true oppressor still brings more support and respectible dps, and 2: welcome to the club- almost every class has only 1 viable spec.
No. Even in mod 3, GWFs weren't far behind CWs. Now only thaums, and maybe oppressors, (I don't think I know any oppressors) are way ahead of TR, GWF, SW, and HR in mod 4.
Honestly I couldn't care less about renegades. Every class in the game has a useless spec line. It's a shame but it's not at all unusual.
I mean honestly if you're biggest complaint is that you can't be an OP class in all three spec lines, then you're doing pretty well.
The point is the game is not fully enjoyable for most people because they have a hard time getting into groups. You don't have to nerf CWs to get them viable, but it's easier than buffing all the other classes.
Obviously, and neither does anyone but renegades. Just like you're the only one who cares about you.
No. My complaint is that I can't compete with them at all, because of cry babies. My complaint is that I've spent a lot of time and money perfecting him, buying gear and companions to match my renegade play style, and now it's all for nothing. My stuff does not match a thaums play style.This game is a businesses, and when other businesses promise you one thing, and give you another, they get in trouble for it.
Anyone who can't find a group is looking in the wrong places.
Certainly not the looking for group channel, because all anyone wants there is CWs.
As for your sob story, classes change all the time in MMOs. Nothing is permanent. What about an HR that was specced for healing. WE DON'T EVEN HAVE A HEALING TREE ANYMORE. That's not the only example, every class has gone through it.
The point is CWs dominate PVE to the point of exclusion of other classes and they make content a total joke. "Yes but we can't do it in all 3 spec lines" is not a counter argument or even relevant.
People are dumb though lol.
I outdpsed lots of CWs these days in the new skirmish, with my Combat HR, with PvP gear. There were just a few 18-20K CWs with 9-10K Power that were outDPSing me consistently, somewhat about twice my DPS. Which they should, since I was in bad spec, bad gear and have 16-17K GS or so, and no PvE companions besides a cheap stone with r7s on it.
People are stuck with the "LF3M CWs for CN, have HV set" mindset from a year ago. Many things changed. Now GFs, SWs, HRs, GWFs can all be awesome in PvE. I hope the changes to TR and DC will offer them more opportunities as well.
In short, People Are Dumb.
Ok, so I went back once again and tried out a bunch of different options for making a Renegade on test server. One thing that I did not test, that I should have, is pairing Shadow Weaver with Renegade on a MoF. Shadow Weaver, as many will point out, is a generally subpar 4/4 set with it's internal cooldown. It does, however, have a lot of critical rating. More than you can use, in fact, but it pairs well with everything else from Renegade. At a higher GS High Vizier's is still probably better but it isn't possible to get enough crit rating that way until you have all of the crit rating boons in my opinion. So Shadow Weaver is training wheels until you're at tip-top GS it seems to me.
What I found is that when Nexus proc's from Chaos Magic, wearing Shadow Weaver, it gives me roughly a 45% crit rate with a 173% critical damage when using a P.Vorpal. (The added ArP is basically wasted, but hey 10% extra crit rate.)
Alternatively, P.Plaguefire will stack with your Swath and Bitter Cold for an 80% mitigation debuff and Chaotic Fury will tack on another 10% damage & some extra lifesteal that stacks with Shadow Weaver. (The LS is basically valueless since everyone has a lot of it, but it's a thing it does if you care.)
So there are options within Renegade still. The fact does remain that it is very random and is not sustainable in the same way that Thaumaturge or Oppressor are. Chaos Magic is quite definitely a big deal for everyone on your team but since you have no idea what it will do from one moment to the next it makes this option occasionally awesome but normally hard to notice.
Nexus is as close as you'll get to EotS for a MoF. (There is also some sort of glitch where you can have two Chaos Magic effects. Possibly three although I didn't see that happen. No idea what was causing it but it seemed to happen most when using Ray of Frost with lots of DoT's active.)
Even with all of this, Nightmare Wizardry still needs to have at least a 10% proc rate. As it stands it usually goes off on one thing, proc's Phantasmal, and everything is dead before either have much of a chance to do anything. Big single-targets are virtually the only thing it works on at the moment and even then it is unreliable. During the clear you'll get very little use out of 10 feat points, but perhaps that's where Cryptic wants it.
Even if Nightmare Wizardry was a 100% chance to proc it is still overall less useful than Frozen Power Transfer which provides a flat 15% bonus to damage. If you have a 25 CHA they break even but only if the proc rate was 100%.
Either way I'm back to Renegade spec. The downsides are many, it doesn't do the same damage as Thaum, but in my opinion it is still more useful than Oppressor in PvE simply as a force multiplier on team damage paired with other CW who also have high CHA. Death is, after all, the most potent CC.
No. only Thaums do that, and they're doing it with Assailant and Storm Spell. If 5 DCs can clear dungeons, any combination can.
I get out DPSed by every class but DCs and GFs now, but I don't run to those class forums to whine and cry for nerfs.
/LFG is the built in chat channel to find groups. There's nothing dumb about people using it, they just want the fastest and easiest runs possible, and for that you want CWs- as many as you can get. I don't know if things will change much but this game is the most broken balance-wise that I've ever seen in all my years gaming. It's good that they at least are looking to address it even if today's changes won't solve the problem; at least it's a step.
As for getting out-dpsed, well I can't help it if you refuse to respec. But that's totally on you and has nothing to do with class balance, and what's more it has very little to do with this thread. Renegade doesn't even use chill so it's affected by this change the least of all the trees.
I did respec, thank you very much.
Many, if not all, Renegades use chill. In fact, we have to now, because Arcane powers were all trashed.
It's not dumb, it's "basically impossible". But that's not because of the players, it's because there's no reason to pick anything but a CW for groups.
Of course it's because of the players. There is no other reason. Do yourself a favor and turn that channel off.
I presume you're aware that the SW feeds off the damage of every other team mate? So without the high damage CW the SW doesn't actually do that much from what I've seen. That doesn't mean I have an opinion about them one way or the other but I doubt you'll see a lot of 5x SW teams forming up without even one Control Wizard. If anything it makes more sense to just bring one SW with lots of CW since you only really need one TT but you need lots of damage to feed it.
Whilst playing a GF i find having atleast 1 CW makes it so much easier. Those mobs can easily make my GF go splat (has close to 50k hp) with a CW stunning/ccing i have enough breathing space to heal myself up.
When I'm pugging and there is neither a healer or CW I leave the group. It's just too much of a headache running it without one.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
I play an CW Oppressor, prefer PvE and look to use party based support elements in my build such as Enfeeblement & Greater Plaguefire, Time steal etc. To be blunt I always look to have a fighter type (agro, meat shield, dps etc.) and a DC (healing, protection etc.) in a party if possible. Particularly for the new Skirmish shore of T. if you don't have a balanced party your chances of success are badly reduced. In fact I prefer diversity. So here is what I think two of the issues are... firstly there seems to be no imperative reason for taking a rogue/stealth type character... in other games the rogue specialises in removing 'lethal traps'... if NW wants to address the balance then a mechanism that throws in the need for TR's (such as trap dis-arming, spotting hidden etc.) IMO would help. Secondly this will potentially be unpopular... for me the nerf/dps/CC argument in CW (and other builds) miss a fundamental point... I attempt to balance my build with survivability... this is a habit from playing lots of RPG (e.g. DnD, Cult of C etc.) over the years. Death is quick to any wizard who does not think about defence as well as offence... but in NW the penalty for death (PvE) in most cases is non-existent. My theory is simple - make death more unpleasant/prohibitive and a lot of builds (CW and other) will suddenly have to think about survival and will begin to self-balance. A 'glass-cannon' one-rotation-kills-all type build needs a counterbalance... in most RPGs it is death!