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Potions in PvP - Please Disable Them

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  • rollingonitrollingonit Member Posts: 1,322 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Companions don't contribute in domination. And I have yet to see a Doohickey there either, so I'm assuming it's the same for them. They both do in IWD, though, but that's as it's meant to be since it's supposed to be open world PvP.

    Doohickeys work in PVP. They are actually quite fun in both PVP and PVE.

    Most MMOs Ive seen/played had some type of healing pot. So Im no way against that, especially if its attainable by all at very little cost.

    The other buffs. Im pretty much indifferent too. I never pot up on purpose for pvp, but I dont play premades. Sometimes If I run a match after PVE (dungeon/skirm) it just happens im running them, but thats even rare.
    We can pretend.
    Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
    Oh Wonder - Without You

    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
    - Dylan Thomas
  • gomok72gomok72 Member Posts: 616 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    As someone that optimizes for PvP (Which is a good bulk of my play), I at first did not take this thread serious. Pots do not give an unfair advantage in PvP as much as enchants do (Try playing PvP without enchants with Pots). It's a combination of player gear, pots, EXPERIENCE and coordination among groups.

    Now I have been witness to a pot saving a life and taking mine in PvP but again, that was my fault for not being prepared. I say do your home work and be better prepared when you step into the big boy court as you can get and make the same exact potions the people you are fighting can make.
    I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.

    -Kymos
  • aulduronaulduron Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,351 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    As a PvE specced and geared CW on page 900 or so, who doesn't use pots, they don't bother me.
  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    If person A goes through the process of making preparations to gain an advantage in whatever way he can, while person B is more lazy and does not make the same preparations... then it is only fitting that person A should have a clear advantage and be more likely to win.

    Potions are not exclusive to certain people. Anyone can get their hands on it easily. If someone brings up the competition up to that level where even the small advantages provided through potion buffs mean something, then you either match the level of preparation, or do not and shut up.


    Nothing is "unfair" when everyone is given the same freedom and opportunity. You chose not to use any performance enhancers, so you deal with the likely consequences.

    Geez, do people have to actually explain this?? :rolleyes:
    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    The only issue I see is that you can bot some of the better potions (invoking). And since the PVP community is very high on "not so legal" activities.

    You get it I guess.
  • crixus8000crixus8000 Member Posts: 1,205 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    kweassa wrote: »
    If person A goes through the process of making preparations to gain an advantage in whatever way he can, while person B is more lazy and does not make the same preparations... then it is only fitting that person A should have a clear advantage and be more likely to win.

    Potions are not exclusive to certain people. Anyone can get their hands on it easily. If someone brings up the competition up to that level where even the small advantages provided through potion buffs mean something, then you either match the level of preparation, or do not and shut up.


    Nothing is "unfair" when everyone is given the same freedom and opportunity. You chose not to use any performance enhancers, so you deal with the likely consequences.

    Geez, do people have to actually explain this?? :rolleyes:

    You seem to not get the point at all....

    Doohickey, tymoras lucky coin and adorable pocket pet come from events, if a new player missed them events then for now the other player already has an advantage and yes the extra stats help a lot. Also the potions you get from spending ardent coins are very very powerful and last even through death, no player can save up enough coins to keep these going for pvp each day so you have to purchase them with AD and only rich, already maxed chars usually can afford to do this, giving them even more of an advantage.


    Icewind pvp is the place for unfair advantages and cockatrices but domination should be as fair as it can be and more about your character and less about potions, doohickeys and summer feasts lol

    EDIT: also "Nothing is "unfair" when everyone is given the same freedom and opportunity." ? The people who played the game when it first came out, have a much bigger advantage over newer players because they have had time to make much AD and can now afford to buy the ardent potions that cost about 4k each every day. Also as i said, they could have played past events and got the doohickey, adorable pocket pet and Tymora's Lucky Coin. In the past things was also different, items was much cheaper and many things was easier to get so pvp should not be about who has played longer, or who can afford to buy the best potions, it is already unfair but should be made fair as possible.
    Crixus - PVP GF
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • lwedarlwedar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 790 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    and if you think the potions are bad, wait till you see the new decaying enchantments for mod 4. You are going to need potions to just survive
    "we all love this game and want it to thrive"
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    does disabling potions include pocket pets, lucky coins and those doohickeys?

    if potions give an unfair advantage and if they disable them, then they should just make everyone fight with the same stats across the board to be fair.

    then each pvp match is a battle of skill. yes?
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    To provide another outlet of discussion on this topic:

    If the dozen elixirs, pets, alchemy pots, food and event buffs are fine for play, why doesn't Cryptic let everyone use their augments and companions' active stats in PVP?
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited August 2014
    To provide another outlet of discussion on this topic:

    If the dozen elixirs, pets, alchemy pots, food and event buffs are fine for play, why doesn't Cryptic let everyone use their augments and companions' active stats in PVP?

    This is kind of my view. Why can't I use my PvE Healing Potions if I can use PvE Buff Potions?

    Gear is earned over time. It's natural progression. Potions are not.

    Potions are a paid consumable. Using them is directly costing money for a temporary advantage.

    What's the old saying? You can buy a man a meal and feed him for a day but if you teach him to cook you'll feed him for a lifetime? Something like that?

    Well when it comes to video games I only buy the latter. I have no problem investing in gear, runes and artifacts. I have no issue facing off against people who have invested more in gear, runes and artifacts than me. However I do have a problem facing people who are spending money on temporary advantages.

    Potions aren't "preparing" for PvP. That's just an excuse to make it seem fair. Everybody has access to them but people should not be required to spend money on temporary buffs to be competitive. PvP should be like learning to cook, not buying meals.

    And if it's not then let me use my PvE healing potions, companions and companion activated bonuses.
  • qq88ppqq88pp Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    What makes a potion a "PvE potion"?
    I never knew that enchants drop in PvP. As far as I know they are PvE rewards/drops.
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited August 2014
    The fact that there are PvP potions balanced for PvP makes all potions not purchased with glory "PvE" potions.

    Additionally, potions not lasting through deaths are pretty blatantly not designed around Domination PvP as has been described throughout this thread numerous times.
  • proneificationproneification Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 494 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    does disabling potions include pocket pets, lucky coins and those doohickeys?

    if potions give an unfair advantage and if they disable them, then they should just make everyone fight with the same stats across the board to be fair.

    then each pvp match is a battle of skill. yes?

    That would be almost IDEAL.

    What would make it ideal is to put everything needed for PvP purchasable with Glory.

    - few small buff potions
    - PvP enchantments (all with Glory)
    - gear

    Then we would see the dedicated PvPers being top geared - as they deserve, and nothing but Glory and bracket position should determine your gear opportunities.
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I fully agree with the OP. PvP should be a battle among players with their characters and gears (I see no problem in having companions) but not a shopping list of potions every time.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    This is kind of my view. Why can't I use my PvE Healing Potions if I can use PvE Buff Potions?

    Gear is earned over time. It's natural progression. Potions are not.

    Potions are a paid consumable. Using them is directly costing money for a temporary advantage.

    What's the old saying? You can buy a man a meal and feed him for a day but if you teach him to cook you'll feed him for a lifetime? Something like that?

    Well when it comes to video games I only buy the latter. I have no problem investing in gear, runes and artifacts. I have no issue facing off against people who have invested more in gear, runes and artifacts than me. However I do have a problem facing people who are spending money on temporary advantages.

    Potions aren't "preparing" for PvP. That's just an excuse to make it seem fair. Everybody has access to them but people should not be required to spend money on temporary buffs to be competitive. PvP should be like learning to cook, not buying meals.

    And if it's not then let me use my PvE healing potions, companions and companion activated bonuses.

    So your problem is you cannot afford buff potions ?
    I help you go grind pve zones or just use Alcemy http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Alchemy.
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • magiquepursemagiquepurse Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Potions are a paid consumable. Using them is directly costing money for a temporary advantage.

    You are still talking against (cannot say it). I am sympathetic to what you are trying to achieve, but unsympathetic about all others being unable to do what you do or having to use analogy and hidden meanings to get their message through.
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited August 2014
    It has nothing to do with if I can afford...

    It has everything to do with not wanting to spend money on temporary buffs.

    Every AD spent on buffs is AD I could have invested in something worthwhile such as better gear. Really not sure what is so complicated to understand, PvP should be skill and gear, not how much AD you spend for a temporary advantage.

    I can afford it...but shouldn't have to in order to compete. Spending money on temporary advantages is not "dedication" to PvP. It's a paid advantage and absolutely should not be standard...
    And if it is then please give me my real paid advantages such as my companions.
  • magiquepursemagiquepurse Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    It has nothing to do with if I can afford...

    It has everything to do with not wanting to spend money on temporary buffs.

    Every AD spent on buffs is AD I could have invested in something worthwhile such as better gear. Really not sure what is so complicated to understand, PvP should be skill and gear, not how much AD you spend for a temporary advantage.

    I can afford it...but shouldn't have to in order to compete. Spending money on temporary advantages is not "dedication" to PvP. It's a paid advantage and absolutely should not be standard...
    And if it is then please give me my real paid advantages such as my companions.

    Yet this game is functioning by annoying people until they spend so they can compete - especially in PvP. Elixirs are an AD sink. If you would not buy elixirs, you would get other stuff, and might be less inclined to buy Zen. If you get elixirs from Ardent coins, you won't get your Angel and won't be able to sell it, or you won't be able to put the elixirs on the AH for more AD.

    This game is constantly trying to frustrate its players by throwing them to the rank 10 "lions" in PvP - maybe, just maybe, you will spend money on Zen so you will have Rank 10s as well. Even if you decide to farm for rank 10s as a f2p player, it's still good, because you will be in the game for months, and constitute content for the paying customers.

    So it is advantageous for the game to frustrate you and make you spend your hard-earned AD.

    You have to understand I do not sympathize with these practices, but it is surprising to me that you, as a long time moderator, cannot see how the game works.

    I do support you however fully in removing elixirs/other consumables such as alchemy items from PvP. But I think your chances to achieve it are next to 0.
  • galaxy1045galaxy1045 Member Posts: 95 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I can afford it...but shouldn't have to in order to compete.
    I don't understand where it is OK to have enchantments costing several millions, without which one can not seriously compete, but it is not OK to use more or less temporary pots.
    A player who can buy more simply has an edge. No matter if it's gear, enchants or pots.
    "There is always a bigger fish" - Obi Wan Kenobi
    It's an arms, race, and in your opinion any kind of pots is where you found out that you are already deeply involved in this race.

    What about the decaying BI items? You have to PvE to acquire BI.
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited August 2014
    Because not only do I compete with far less gear...it's hardly a rule set in stone...they are permament.

    Again, you can give a man a meal and feed him for a day but you can teach a man to cook and feed him for a lifetime.

    The difference between the two is that they are not temporary. In time you will get better gear. The same can not be said of temprary potions, particularly when they cost the same currency as that better gear you should be investing in.


    And <rages>, just because you make something doesn't make it free. Every potion you use is a potion you can sell.
  • xgrandz02xgrandz02 Member Posts: 702 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    , PvP should be skill and gear, not how much AD you spend for a temporary advantage.

    I don't understand why are potions a big deal for you, it's only for a temporary time,like you saying.
    but nothing more.

    How about artifacts or enchantments R8-R10 / Perfects ?
    Peoples buy Zen trade to AD and buy instant a perfect enchantment, why is this not an advantage to others?
    who don't spend real money on the game ,they have the biggest disadvantage overall,

    So they dont have any perfects ore higher enchantment ,
    How realistic are the " PvP should be skill and gear", now?.

    the fact is you can have better enchantment , equip , artifacts just by spending Real money.

    [example the new dragon Artifact got Really Good stats but its only available for players who spend Real-Money]
    So they have an advantage opposite to other,
    <::::::[]==0 GwF 0==[]::::::> ● Still waiting for the promised Improvement ●
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited August 2014
    I'm feeling like a broken record now...

    Gear is an expected advantage every time. You will earn better gear by playing the game.

    Buff potions in PvP is akin to adding a 50K, for the sake of numbers, fee to queue for PvP.

    That's not dedication. Let's say they removed pots from PvP but said every time you queue you have to spend 50K AD. How would you feel?

    Well that's what you guys are saying. It's okay you can spend 50K per match too! No...that's not okay. I shouldn't be expected to pay a fee to participate in PvP. And if me and my team ends up sitting in the base because the enemy team is paying 50K per match then we're not participating.
  • meldan3nmeldan3n Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Potions are a paid consumable. Using them is directly costing money for a temporary advantage.

    I use the Black Ice set. The stats, both from the Overload Slot enchantments and the set, are temporary. In order to keep them at their maximum, I have to mine and refine Black Ice. I also need to craft the Overload Slot enchantments (or I can buy them for AD).

    With regard to Alchemy, from which I always have 99 Potions of each kind just by crafting them regularly, where do you draw the line?

    Now, of course I keep all kinds of "superpots" and elixirs ready-to-go in case I need them (heavy troll comp premades), but the one-time-potions are enough to counter any elixir user. Is it bad that I'm C2W (craft-to-win)?

    I pug a lot. And of course there are certain players that like to roflstomp the enemy: 3 GWFs, 2 HRs, all full Rank 10s and Legendaries, every single pot and elixir on the planet, no mercy attitude straight into your spawn. Yes, the matchmaking isn't perfect, but this is what it's been introduced for.

    The queue system is supposed to set up even matches. If people are running full-elixir troll comps, they will be facing other full-elixir troll comps.

    From my own experience, I can tell you that potions and elixirs look op on the paper, but skill and build-perfection play a way bigger role in how a match is decided.

    EDIT:

    P.S.: With Module 4, there will be an even bigger variety of temporary stats/buffs through gear, which you can either craft by yourself or buy on the AH from others (same way potions and elixirs work).
  • gorrinacogorrinaco Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I've always thought that pots and elixirs for pvp are not cool. Specially if we are talking of a matchmaking mode, which should be newbie friendly. Now this is a personal opinion. However we must look for the more equilibrated way of doing pvp and not ruining its fun. Old players must have some advantage over the new players ofc, but new players still must have a chance. Being a veteran doesn't make you pro automatically, and if a new player plays better than an old one he deserves to win, no matter how much time does the veteran guy spend on farming consumables.
    In the first place, we can't compare elixirs with gear (and enchantments). As some people already stated, you earn your gear as a natural progression in the MMO. It's something you need yes/yes, not only for PVP, but also for PVE. And there must be some kind of reward for those guys who spent hours to get those OP gears, being that reward something more than killing mobs faster (if you are into something more than PVE, ofc). Gearing is part of a MMO experience, since you learn more aspects of the game while you do it, and makes you socialize with other users (another important part of an MMO).
    On the other hand, farming consumables always looked somewhat wrong. While you have the gear aspect on every MMO, not every MMO has the op consumables. And it makes sense, since everyone knows that usually consumables can be game breaking, specially if they come together with a far better gear. Anyone remembers this? Get proper element + hero + tons of pots = 1 guy killing whole guilds and defending castles alone = something is wrong. Cof cof.
    Since i'm a new player to neverwinter, i dont really know to what point does consumables give an advantage. But as an old MMO player, i know that balance is perfection, and fun for everyone on pvp, not only for the victorious side. It's better loosing to an intense match that i had chances to win rather to go into god mode and win with no challenge at all (and no chances for the other team to defeat me).
    We should think about elixirs as part of the more competitive scene of pvp. What we call the min/maxers. But it should not affect the casual players, they deserve fun too. Maybe a new pvp mode could be a solution... castles/territory control maybe? Or just split the queue into buffs allowed/not buffs allowed, separating the competitive scene and the casual scene.
    Sorry for my english, i hope you understand me.
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited August 2014
    meldan3n wrote: »
    The queue system is supposed to set up even matches. If people are running full-elixir troll comps, they will be facing other full-elixir troll comps.

    This is only true if they use the potions consistently. Which is part of the issue.

    The Elo system only works if there is a consistent tend in your gear. Sudden spikes will throw it off.

    This means since I do not use potions my Elo rating is based on data without potions. If I suddenly use potions one match it will result in an imbalanced match because the system was matching me based on a record without using potions. The same is true in reverse.

    And please for the love of...
    Every time the word free is used brain cells are destroyed.

    If you make potions with alchemy they are not free.

    Let's say you walk down the street and find a gold bar worth a million dollars. Would you give it to the first person you saw because it was free? Of course not.

    Making the potion may mean there is no AD cost to acquire it but the potion is still worth whatever the market value is. Every time you use a potion you could have sold it instead for market value. Nothing in the world is free...not even dirt.
  • refracted0dawnrefracted0dawn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 894 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    It's bad enough dealing with somebody with a PvP specific build and better gear without also having to deal with them buffed to all hell by fifteen different potions. The solution can't even be 'pot up too' unless you truly expect every person to waste AD on potions that have an effect which expire when a player is killed.

    I do not understand this at all. Who would ever spend AD on potions? You get them free several times a day. And you can make batches of potions that never drop with Alchemy, as well as make boosted healing potions. The only ones that do not drop and cannot be brewed are the PvP Battle healing potions.

    We have a Guild Vault full of 99-potion stacks of all colours. Plus a load in an overspill Vault with all the kits, scrolls and altars. We use them to equip new characters once we get to PE. In fact, we are going to have to sell a load off as we have so many, but it's better than filling your inventory with rubbish and carting round stuff you do not need.

    I put new ones in there several times a day after doing Invocations, Professions, Skirmishes, Dungeons etc.


    I also do not understand why anyone would use the normal potions in PvP, much less pay AD for them and take the risk of them lasting for 8 seconds, as sometimes that is as long as I last in PvP.

    I only ever use the Ardent Coin Elixirs as they persist through death. And even then I only use them for Epic Bosses and in PvP if things are going badly. They often do not actually help all that much if we are out-classed, anyway. They are no substitute for Rank 10 Enchants on BIS gear, three Rank 100 Artifacts, basic Skill and good team work. My two DCs have Grim and Profound gear, but that is because you save the Glory and buy what you want and do not have to rely on RNG drops and end up with partial sets of five or six different sets of gear.

    They are geared, but they are not specced, for PvP - they are specced for solo and party play.

    In dungeons, I use healing potions when I have to (especially as a DC), but since my DO's GS got to about 15k I do not need to even use them as much anymore.

    If people want to waste their Ardent coins on the gear, mounts or companions you can get, that's fine with me. Every 10 days I buy one of each Elixir with my 10 Ardent coins from each character and send them to my two main characters.

    But trying to stop me making wise use of the Ardent Coin elixirs because other people did not think of it or want to buy other things with them?

    I don't think so.

    And you cannot have fifteen different potions active at one time. It's more like six or seven. What you are seeing is buffs from their team's Feats, like Critical Teamwork from a TR, some Augment thing from a CW and active spell effects. I get nearly a dozen icons during combat even when I have not quaffed a potion.

    I suggest you save your Ardent Coins and buy the elixirs. Then, if you are getting smashed in PvP, try drinking the potions and see if it helps. Or stop doing PvP if you do not want to gear up for it.

    ~
  • meldan3nmeldan3n Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    If you make potions with alchemy they are not free.

    Who said they're free? Of course they are worth something. But their worth depends on demand (and supply). Potions and elixirs make a huge market, because there are people striving for an advantage (in stats). And this is how crafters make their AD.

    But you kind of ignored the Black Ice. You craft an overload enchantment, use it, then it disappears. Same as the Black Ice tiers. Should Black Ice gear be banned from Domination?

    And if yes, isn't any "sink" (something where wealth goes *poof*) good for an MMO?

    I do not feel like pots in PvP are mandatory. They are an option that you may or may not go for that gives perfectionists a further option to "perfect" their stats. And still: Skill/Team Communication >> Gear/Stats
This discussion has been closed.