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Announcing the Dragonborn Race

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  • refracted0dawnrefracted0dawn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 894 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    stomac wrote: »
    one the rules in that video was you NEVER ever split your player base, that being said I do think you are being overdramatic
    that this will split the community

    I think differences between PvE and PvP gear has already done that.

    I REALLY believe that either Tenacity should be removed completely and replaced with boosts in class-useful stats like Life Steal for TR, Regeneration for DC etc, or Tenacity should also work in PvE.

    But making a new Race available only to those who pay real-world cash is definitely driving a wedge into the community, and it is not necessary

    ~
  • candinho2candinho2 Member Posts: 550 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I think differences between PvE and PvP gear has already done that.

    I REALLY believe that either Tenacity should be removed completely and replaced with boosts in class-useful stats like Life Steal for TR, Regeneration for DC etc, or Tenacity should also work in PvE.

    But making a new Race available only to those who pay real-world cash is definitely driving a wedge into the community, and it is not necessary

    ~

    Regeneration for DC??? Realy???? i know Devoted CLERICS doesnt have a HEALING SKILL but well they'r dps class right?
  • refracted0dawnrefracted0dawn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 894 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    candinho2 wrote: »
    Regeneration for DC??? Realy???? i know Devoted CLERICS doesnt have a HEALING SKILL but well they'r dps class right?

    Quite right - cannot damage and cannot heal themselves as all their spells have something like a 70% Righteousness Nerf.

    Tenacity should either be gone or should also work in PvE, as it is driving a wedge between the community as much as the Dragonbron pack pricing.

    Their most powerful healing spell, Bastion of Health, does about the same healing as Sunburst, about 2000 hp with 4 to 5000 Power, but does NOT damage enemies and so normally does not replenish Divinity.

    It is so slow to cast that people run away out of the area before it triggers and it is also nerfed by Righteousness in both PvE and PvP and by Healing Depression in PvP.

    Plus, in PvE, people can heal themselves by 8,500 hp every 12 seconds with a potion. And this Massive AoE Heal does about 2000?

    Bastion of Health should do at least 5000 hp healing, have a faster cool down a MUCH faster casting time with no delay and when Divinely Channeled should provide 12% Damage Reduction plus 12% Regeneration for 6 seconds, which should stack with Regeneration and Damage Reduction from Astral Shield. Otherwise it is a complete waste of space.

    More Regeneration on PvP gear would at least allow a DC to hide and heal up a bit in PvP when the party abandons you. But you could substitute Power, Recovery, Crit, Defence or Max HP if you prefer. Or even Deflection, but that would only really be worthwhile with a Halfling with high DEX.

    Anyway, we have gone off topic enough, as the main point is that Dragonborn is splitting the fan base, which is a very poor business decision as pointed out by that video, just as Tenacity on PvP gear was a very poor decision, as it already has split the community. That is why it should be either gone or should also work in PvE, and also why the DB Pack should be more sensibly priced.

    ~
  • katwilliams22katwilliams22 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Pretty dumb decision locking a race behind a pay wall, very poor decision indeed.

    I'm not buying it, but this is extremely disappointing to see.
  • teflondon75teflondon75 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Have to agree with the general consensus here. The cost is simply higher than my perceived value of the pack. Affording it is not the problem, my issue, like so many here, is that the race is basically all that is wanted. The rest is just fluff, for me. Dragonborn race and even a nice Warlock themed account unlockable mount would have me feeling like it's a decent purchase(have to remember, this is the cost of not one...but almost TWO games)

    I'll likely end up buying it anyhow =/ as I'm one of the dumb arses that spends on things I know are over priced. I'll know full well that the pack is basically a money grab. For me the 75$ would break down like such: 55$ for the race, way off base price for a race unlock. 20$ for the rest, my personal value on that stuff. After the sale, not a chance. The price is just nuts after the sale ends. I'd be willing to bet most of the devs don't even feel the price justifies the goods, never to be voiced of course :P They are simply banking on enough people that just GOTTA have it or don't really care what they spend on what(it's not about having the money, it's about being smart about your money imo)
  • psychicslugpsychicslug Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    You got to remember the healer here is a combat medic not just a straight healing class and as said most can use potions. A priest in this is a support heal and a buffer as well as filling a general role for everyone in the group. Now I have seen some great healers but as a non healer you have to be mind full of what there doing and whats going on other wise you end up dead because you are not were you need to be to get the buff or healing. Have to say they did a good job in making the game hard to not participate because as is right now everyone has to work as a group or you end up dead. This makes PUG groups very hard as some people just don't know the game and power level up to 60 with out truly getting to know there class. Most have bought there way here and have no concept of what there doing and have uber gear and feel if you do not have all purple uber gear you are not worth being in there group. I don't have a issue with these people because if your like this then I don't want to be in your group. Seen this one that was in a group with who wanted to be leader and refused to play until was give leader. Well the leader did a great job and just ignored him till he left she then got a good priest and one other and we took are time and finished the dungeon. The other guy was running in and grouping creatures and died so many times as he was a trickster rogue "I was a great weapon fighter and should have been the tank ". He did not let us even regroup and rest for those who needed he just kept going" Speed kills people ". Any way sorry for the rant, as for the dragon born wanted to play one but not if I have to pay $100 dollars. As was going to change my CW who is a fire caster into one but not now, give us an option to have the race in the store for AD. Because right now I will just wait and keep playing for free and not pay a cent for anything as this is over priced.
  • glaciauzumakiglaciauzumaki Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Seriously give us a mount and a special title to go with it.....
  • dndbencdndbenc Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I just wanted to say that I'm appalled by the price tag associated with the new Dragonborn addon. Having already laid out to be a founder right at the start and then having sunk tons of cash into the game since then I am literally shocked by this announcement. Development costs for a single additional race could never justify such a huge price tag. It's so huge for so little 'virtual content' that it's shameful. Isn't Neverwinter enough a cash-cow for it's developers anyway? Neverwinter is a great game with a loyal following and I think its players deseve better than being exposed to such blatant greed. I'd love to hear a justification for the price-tag :(
  • glaciauzumakiglaciauzumaki Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Agreed and I think they need to add a LOT more to the pack ie a million zen half a million AD a mount and an exclusive player title. Additionally refund a large chunk to the players who already sunk cash into it.
  • iambecks1iambecks1 Member Posts: 4,044 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    So I wonder why the epic acc wide version of this couldn't be added to the pack leaving the race free for everybody?...

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  • tang56tang56 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    That's been mentioned several times already - the €uro price has to include local VAT/Sales Taxes, which in the UK is 20%.

    The numbers do not match precisely, but explains why there is such a difference between U$D and €uro prices.

    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?714881-Announcing-the-Dragonborn-Race&p=8500541&viewfull=1#post8500541


    Try converting the € price to your local currency and see what you end up with.

    ~

    Yeah, it's a thing.
    http://www.deloitte.com/assets/Dcom-UnitedStates/Local%20Assets/Documents/Tax/us_Tax_VAT_POV_2011Sept_100711.pdf

    http://ebiz.pwc.com/2013/01/eu-2015-vat-changes-to-eservices-the-keep-it-simple-edition/

    Sadly, PWE/Cryptic charge ~27-30% which is about the same as the highest VAT rate in the EU(Hungary afaik). Kinda fks everyone else who doesn't have a 27% VAT rate in the EU though. They are supposed to charge the VAT based on the place of the customer, not just charge 27-30% then pocket the difference.
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  • arcanaxearcanaxe Member Posts: 192 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Their most powerful healing spell, Bastion of Health, does about the same healing as Sunburst, about 2000 hp with 4 to 5000 Power, but does NOT damage enemies and so normally does not replenish Divinity.~

    Laughed so hard when I was reading this, in what frame of mind would you ever use BOH on a DC. It's one of the worst healing spell of all for the DC. The best encounters to use is for healing is as follows.

    AS - Astral shield - Best healing (Regeneration healing)
    FF - Forge master - 2nd best healing (Regeneration healing)
    HW - Healing word - 3rd best (Instant health/in divine gives regen as well)
    BOH - Bastion of health - 4th (Provides an x - amount of health)once of, while FF still heals as people are taking damage.
    SB - Sunburst - 5th best - provides a small amount of healing (But rapidly builds divinty, debuffs adds, heals allies, and damages adds)

    Sorry I know this is off topic but just want to clear this out.
  • stah01stah01 Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    stomac wrote: »
    here is the Link to that Video if anyone wants to watch it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXA559KNopI


    this video so speaks the truth.
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  • khimera906khimera906 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    kalindra wrote: »
    Really?
    How comes I never noticed that with the other PWE-hosted games (Jade Empire, Forsaken World, Perfect World, etc.) but just with NWO?
    It's Jade Dynasty, and that game was run into the ground by the same bs policies that PWE seem to implement into Neverwinter lately. Jade Dynasty is almost deserted now compared to how it was a few years ago when I was playing it.
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  • zomdzomd Member Posts: 166 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    stomac wrote: »
    here is the Link to that Video if anyone wants to watch it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXA559KNopI

    There's a few things in that video where I think he's slightly off base, but I wanted to address the idea that paying for speed and convenience are structurally benign on the final game design. Ultimately, if you're paying for xp boosts, you're paying for gear rather than playing the game for it, or you're skipping some other structural (rather than literal) time gate, you're paying a company basically to not play their game. And now the incentives between making a game fun for everyone and making money are at cross purposes.

    There's no way around it. Those incentives are going to butt heads because companies generally don't want to make just some money. Sometimes just some money isn't enough to stay in business, plus they want to make all the monies too. So they end up making pain points where it becomes just unfun enough that they convert a percentage of people into paying customers to skip that pain point.

    I'm definitely glad the video ended saying F2P doesn't fit all games and game types, because I'm skeptical of microtransactions and other f2p schemes entering boxed/paid games because of the inherent incentives to make the game unfun (and breaks the game flow too).

    Edit: Anyway, to stay more on topic, I don't think putting the dragonborn behind a paywall is splitting the player base. I'm not happy about the price--I was expecting maybe a 35 dollar pack with the race and other stuff--but it's not preventing people from playing the dungeons/pvp/etc. Think of it more like Neverwinter's monocle haha. :)
  • iambecks1iambecks1 Member Posts: 4,044 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    zomd wrote: »
    Think of it more like Neverwinter's monocle haha. :)

    Or Horse armor , yes , The Dragonborn race is Neverwinters version of Horse armor.
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  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    ghobepong wrote: »
    Copyright infringement, copyright infringement. Read all about it, Perfectworld plagiarizes Bethesda Studios on the name "Dragonborn". News to Zenimax Online and Bethesda Studio's at 11!

    Yeah, about that, if anything, Bethesda was infringing on D&D intellectual property, but conceptually, I think the idea of dragons having hybrid offspring with other races is generic enough that nobody needs to sue anyone over it. It would be like trying to copyright rescuing a princess.

    Regarding the pack, I'm in the school of thinking that the $100 price tag is too high, $60 would be more in line with other packs (but still not really as good of value as previous $60 packs considering fluff vs. useful contents), and the sale price brings it down to the point where I'm affluent enough to be waffling over it. I probably would not make more than one Dragonborn character, nor would I change the race of any of my existing ones.

    Here are some observations regarding the announced pack contents:
    Dragonborn Warrior fashion set - This has to be the wrong model on display. The half-orc is wearing what looks like a GWF armor set, not remotely like the leather shorts and harness described in the tooltip... the outfit shown is most certainly not leather at all. The actual description sounds more like what the Dragonborn cleric is wearing in the images in the news post.
    Heart of the Red Dragon - Each character can claim once or claim infinite if you no longer have the original? Needs to be more clear and if the latter, you need to address potential refinement exploits as with class artifacts.
    Dragon Glyphs - Are poor value. Considering these 5 epic items seem to be a big rationale for the attached price tag, maybe increasing their duration or changing them to less potent but permanent overload enchantments might be reasonable. As it stands, they're not a whole lot better than getting a potion pack. Nobody likes to spend a lot of money on something they don't get to keep.
    Draconic and Gemfinder Enchantments - Fair enough only being able to claim once but I don't think one per character would be out of line in the slightest (like Loamweave and whatever the pre-slotted Delzoun weapon enchant is called), and the perceived value of the pack in relation to the price tag would go *way* up.
    Regardless, they need to be made unrefinable (like Loamweave) because there is no way to upgrade them.
    Bahamut Regalia - Claim once, claim once per character, claim infinite? Good value requires the latter. The Wings are pretty danged cool-looking and nobody who paid for them is going to want to be limited to one use forever, not even once per character. Without knowing what the heck Tears of Bahamut are, we dunno if these are worthwhile.

    Hope somebody see this and addresses some of these specific concerns. Whether or not you adjust the pricing, the pack info needs to be crystal-clear on what you're getting for your money.
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  • godlysoul2godlysoul2 Member Posts: 661 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    Id be interested if it were like $25 for the new race and a race change. To me, that is the only object of interest in the pack. The rest is pretty much trash, (unique cosmetics are always nice though), for anyone who is experienced with the game, and just seems like adding more items to rationalize an outrageous price. I love the game to death and would love to blow money on it for cool stuff. To me, a new/unique character model with some minor stat/passive benefits over other races is definitely cool and would be something nice to blow a bit of money on, but it does not hold $75 value. Maybe next time if the price is right.
  • ministerofchangeministerofchange Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Dragon Glyphs - Are poor value. Considering these 5 epic items seem to be a big rationale for the attached price tag, maybe increasing their duration or changing them to less potent but permanent overload enchantments might be reasonable. As it stands, they're not a whole lot better than getting a potion pack. Nobody likes to spend a lot of money on something they don't get to keep.
    Gemfinder Enchantments - Fair enough only being able to claim once but I don't think one per character would be out of line in the slightest

    Worse part of these thing, they are all available in game as part of the Dragon Campaign, so its not like its even a special thing
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    If they're identical to items you can get in the campaign, then yeah, that's ludicrous. I'm not totally up on the ToD campaign because of the preview crashing bug and limited time.
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  • iambecks1iambecks1 Member Posts: 4,044 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Heart of the Red Dragon - Each character can claim once or claim infinite if you no longer have the original? Needs to be more clear and if the latter, you need to address potential refinement exploits as with class artifacts.

    Wow , good call out , I'm guessing that the developers are pretty much ignoring this thread due to the overwhelmingly bad feedback so I'll put in a bug report pointing this out just incase.
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  • refracted0dawnrefracted0dawn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 894 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    tang56 wrote: »
    Sadly, PWE/Cryptic charge ~27-30% which is about the same as the highest VAT rate in the EU(Hungary afaik). Kinda fks everyone else who doesn't have a 27% VAT rate in the EU though.

    They are supposed to charge the VAT based on the place of the customer, not just charge 27-30% then pocket the difference.

    Yes, indeed. That would be surely criminal?

    Content purchased from an American vendor, in an EU nation that charges a different level of local Sales Tax, should surely be taxed at the local level of that EU nation where the sale is made? The Sales Tax is then collected by the American Vendor and then sent to the government of that EU nation?

    What happens if they charge the 27% VAT applicable to Hungary, but the customer lives in Luxembourg where the rate is 15%, or Malta where the rate is 18%, or Germany where it is 19%, or even Britain where the rate is 20%?

    Do we get a rebate from Customs and Excise?

    Does anyone know how this works and whether we have to put in a claim for a rebate of the tax we have been overcharged?

    Surely, PW would not take 27% from all of us, and then only pay our governments the rate those governments actually charge, thereby corruptly generating fraudulent income from nothing?

    ~

    PS, I just realised, when I suggested converting the €uro price to your local currency, for everyone in the EU, the local currency IS €uro! DUH!! It is only the UK that has refused to convert and uses Sterling.

    Norway, of course, is not in the EU, so still uses Norwegian Krone.

    But the VAT charged should be at the local rate where the customer is, not the highest rate in Europe.


    ~
  • bioshrikebioshrike Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,729 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    It's possible that PWE charges the flat rate to all areas in Europe, and then simply pays the required taxes based off that amount, regardless of the variability of said taxes. In other words, you aren't paying the pre-tax/vat price, but one that already includes said fees, and PWE simply makes a varying amount of profit based upon the actual country the buyer is from - instead of charging X for the item, then presenting you with a checkout screen that shows X + Y% tax/vat for total price Z.

    So let's say that they charged 100 Euros. In country A, that might work out to be 80 + 20 in taxes & VAT, but in country B the breakdown is 85 + 15.
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  • zomdzomd Member Posts: 166 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    iambecks1 wrote: »
    Or Horse armor , yes , The Dragonborn race is Neverwinters version of Horse armor.

    I may be not remembering correctly, but the interesting thing about horse armor is it was the best selling add on for oblivion. It may have even generated the most revenue too. And at least for a while, the monocle generated the most revenue total compared to the other items. There's just a lot of people out there with a lot of money.
  • iambecks1iambecks1 Member Posts: 4,044 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    zomd wrote: »
    I may be not remembering correctly, but the interesting thing about horse armor is it was the best selling add on for oblivion. It may have even generated the most revenue too. And at least for a while, the monocle generated the most revenue total compared to the other items. There's just a lot of people out there with a lot of money.

    Oblivion had 10 DLC's , Horse armor was the #9 seller , the only one below it was fighters Stronghold and that was only down to the fact it was given away free several times in promotions so nobody was willing to buy it , so yes Horse armor sold but it was by no means a best seller.
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  • huxley2012huxley2012 Member Posts: 1
    edited July 2014
    I was really excited about Dragonborn race until I saw the price tag and what comes with. 72€ for a whole lot of nothing sounds like belated April Fool's. At least give people an account-wide blue/purple mount (take the most ugly horse you have, I dont care) or companion at least.
    Let's hope they release Dragonborn race independent of this capitalist-profit greedy **** pack otherwise I'll pass on it sad as it is.
  • zomdzomd Member Posts: 166 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    iambecks1 wrote: »
    Oblivion had 10 DLC's , Horse armor was the #9 seller , the only one below it was fighters Stronghold and that was only down to the fact it was given away free several times in promotions so nobody was willing to buy it , so yes Horse armor sold but it was by no means a best seller.

    What just struck me about the interview was the way it made it seem like horse armor did really well, despite people's complaints. Maybe that was in terms of profit, or just the fact it continues to sell. I can't find the interview now, so thanks for the correction. :)
  • dragobsstitchdragobsstitch Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I am really disappointed. I've been waiting since open beta from the Dragonborn to be added. so I could make my first tabletop character. A dragonborn/Paladin in the game. Even my favorite race in 4e I don't think it is worth the $100/$75. Really They should have done what they did with the Moon elf/sun elf. Like giving the Dragonborn with the common scale colors from free. But have the ones that can have the metallic/chromatic scales be the ones you have to pay for. Since those ones are rare.

    Edit: Also keep in mind that if a Dragonborn has chromatic scales. It does not make them evil by default.
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