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One way to clear backlog on ZAX

ameyaw1ameyaw1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 11 Arc User
edited July 2014 in General Discussion (PC)
Ppl have suggested that one way to clear the backlog is to make some zen store items purchable on the wondorous bazaar, i agree with this if only those items r bound to account and one item i wod truly appreciate is the pres. wards u can sell ur 100% coal just lemme buy a stuck of 1% press wards from WB account bound of course

Another one is make items of previous cta and events avaliable on the WB purchasable with only AD and not event currencies since event is long past eg. weapon transmutes,refiners cache, dyes,amour transmutes etc account bound dont sell cta pets

Add new kinds of mount with 50% at the Wb whether white or green at least with say 50k ad i can ride a cool looking mount than the sabino

Add lastly like all other central banks do create zen and dump in the economy( wod only happen in ma dreams i know) but hey who knows
Post edited by ameyaw1 on
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    khimera906khimera906 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    It might happen ...
    First step would be to acknowledge the problem, something that they don't see to be doing right now.
    I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
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    cdnbisoncdnbison Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    It really comes down to having an AD sink of some sort. Some way to remove AD from circulation.

    Adding items to the WB would seem like a good way of doing this, but it needs to be done in a way that doesn't affect / impact zen store sales. A good start might be to try a sale on some of the appearance-related items that are there already, and measure the response. If it works, maybe move some of the trade bar items to the bazaar, even if only for a limited time.
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    frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Well the coal wards would be a very big ad sink, everyone needs them. For most of their lifetime they were bought for ad, the difference being that its AD was mostly being given to other players, though that was never a problem.

    Coal wards as a rare dungeon drop, coal wards permanently reduced, coal wards in the bazaar (preferably cheaper than 500k AD), what ever the choice something should be done.
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    beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    frishter wrote: »
    Coal wards as a rare dungeon drop, coal wards permanently reduced, coal wards in the bazaar (preferably cheaper than 500k AD), what ever the choice something should be done.

    As long as certain people think that it's remotely feasible to get at least some customers to pay $10 for them, or $7.50 or $8 on sale, it will never happen. And since some people actually do pay $10 for them, or heck why not $50 so they can get a companion unlock... nope, don't get your hopes up.
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
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    rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    khimera906 wrote: »
    It might happen ...
    First step would be to acknowledge the problem, something that they don't see to be doing right now.

    This.

    We first have to make sure Cryptic is unhappy with the current situation because frankly, depending on your perspective, one could say the current situation is fine. Paying players get more bang for their zen. F2P players can still get zen just not instantly.

    Let's see cryptic/devs release a statement about this first instead of using a couple of spoiled crying f2p players complaining they can't get zen instantly.
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    query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I don't see how this would clear the backlog. Coals and Pres can already be purchased for Zen. Why would someone who had zen turn it into AD to buy something they could have bought with Zen? Unless they were selling at a rate of less than 500AD/ Zen.
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited July 2014
    query523 wrote: »
    I don't see how this would clear the backlog. Coals and Pres can already be purchased for Zen. Why would someone who had zen turn it into AD to buy something they could have bought with Zen? Unless they were selling at a rate of less than 500AD/ Zen.

    You can only purchase Coal Wards with AD by paying others via the AH (which only takes a 10% cut) and those players must have first purchased tradeable wards with Zen.

    If Coal Wards were shifted into a store, not player transfer, that sold them for AD instead of Zen...

    -100% of the AD would be removed from the system
    -Demand for Zen drops as no Zen is needed for said coal wards

    I hope I don't have to explain how less supply of AD and less demand for Zen would increase AD value?
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    query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Well no but you have to understand that it still creates no incentive to trade Zen on the ZAX. If nothing else 10 pres trades at over 60k and is a better way to turn zen into AD. So even if you have zen and want AD the ZAX is still not a good way to exchange it. Hence to create an incentive to trade Zen for AD on the ZAX you would have to Price everything in the zen store at an AD cost equal to the 500AD conversion rate (AH tax would remove the profit motive). This, however, is not a good business model for PWE. because it also removes the incentive to buy zen for those rich in AD. Look at the current promotion. If you want these items you either A) have collected a signifigant sum of Zen through the ZAX over time or B) have to spend cash. I'm assuming that people spending money is part of their business model please do not be upset at that I like money too.
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited July 2014
    Doesn't matter. All values, in this scenario, are mainly comprised of supply and demand.

    By decreasing the supply of AD you by definition increase the value of AD.
    By decreasing the demand of Zen you by definition decrease the value.

    You do not need to increase the supply of Zen to decrease the value. Decreasing the demand will, be definition, do the same thing. If a major demand for Zen such as Coal Wards was shifted to cause demand for AD it will result in a price increase for AD and a price decrease for Zen.

    Purely basic economics at work. There's no if, ands or buts.
    Whether PWE Marketing is willing to do something like that, though, is a completely different matter.

    EDIT - Basically the same doom and gloom couch economics nonsense was spouted before Chicken Eggs. 'It won't have any effect because it dsoesn't increase the supply of Zen.'
    I said the same thing then as I am now and...low and behold that was the last time the backlog was gone.

    MMO Economics are not overly complicated. However if you only make changes based on supply without considering demand then it is doomed to fail.
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    query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    No simple supply and demand does not work because these are currency markets. Or rather zen is a form of specie ( a currency backed by a commodity) whilse AD is a more like our current rand of currency ( we can create it from thin air more or less). So long as the value of our specie is greater than 500 per there is not proper incentive to convert it to currency at that rate. This is actually how currency values used to ballance each other back when all currencies were specie. The chicken eggs were an artificial incentive that did affect the ZAX purely on the fact that it was time sensitive. People had to convert immediately to take advantage of it and such immediacy is the only value add that the ZAX provides to zen holders because, once again, the goods concersion rate is higher. So unless you need AD right this moment it is a bad idea to trade on the ZAX. Look before the ZAX peaked it was the indicator for the price of zen goods. Wards were priced relative to the ZAX conversion rate as were Iuons. But that was when it was elastic. Zen has become an inelastic product since the ZAX peaked. It does not operate on supply and demand any longer.
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    query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Maybe I'm not explaining this well. You know why they don't make pennies out of copper anymore? Because the copper it takes is worth more than a penny. Zen in this case are pennies. Except that every player has a smelter and instant access to a metals purchaser in the form of the zen market. This means actually spending your pennies on the ZAX is a loss.
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited July 2014
    The argument of "omg AD is unlimited so it's hopeless" is just plain flawed and outright wrong.

    Again...the doom and gloom economics is great at being wrong and little more. Just because AD is added to the game more regularly than Zen doesn't mean it is destined to be worthless. It means it will always be worth less and that is intended.

    Again chicken eggs proved how AD sinks can and do decrease enough supply to increase AD value.

    Because that's the ultimate fact the doom and gloomers don't ever consider. If you give people a reason to buy items with AD you not only decrease the supply by flushing the AD but you also create demand for AD as well. The system would work fine if there was a reason to want AD. The problem is right now people do not want AD. Most people view AD as nothing more as a means to get Zen...

    That's why AD is valueless. It has far less to do with the amount of AD entering the game and far more to do with the lack of it leaving the game. That's what none of the doom and gloomers get...
    'OMG there's unlimited supply and it will never work!' It works just fine as long as AD leaves the system and currently it does not. In fact it really never has.
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    query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    AD has plenty of value there are a lot of high ticket items that can only be purchased with AD. Perfect enchants, Crafting materials (have you seen the price of dragon eggs?) that is not the problem. I keep a reserve supply if zen but if I wanted AD right now I would never turn to the ZAX because it will only pay me 50000AD per 100 Zen. The Zen market will pay me 10 pres wards that will sell for 62500 (I'd price them a little higher as it usually goes up over the course of the weekend) paying 6250 more AD after market tax. Of course my profit if I am not in a huge hurry is much higher because I will buy tradeable goods when a coupon drops for an even greater return. So demand for AD =/= supply of Zen on ZAX. This is not doom and gloom. This is ellementary math.
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    query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Now if there were no ZAX cap for instance it would be elastic again and people say, looking for pres wards, would reasonably say I'll pay 600 per for 100 zen and buy my wards off of the Zen market it would reach an equilibrium because of the market tax. This is, more or less, how the price of these commodities fluctuated before the ZAX peaked.
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited July 2014
    AH is not a sink. Sinks take currency out of the game. AH transfers currency minus 10%.

    It's not about making people buy items in the AH. It's about making them buy items and have the AD removed from the game.

    Examples: Companion Upgrades, Mount Upgrades, Wondrous Bazaar.
    Sadly these three sinks are so expensive nobody uses them. In fact the prices drive people who might consider using these three sinks into obtaining Zen for alternatives with better value.

    The AH is not an adaquate sink. The Zen Exchange proves that. Which is what the point the OP made which you continue to ignore. We need sinks which are actually used by players, en mass, to remove AD from the game.
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    query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    You're missing my point. AD sinks do not matter if the AH offers a better exchange rate than the ZAX. It's not cpomplicated bro. The chicken thing only alleviated because it was time sensitive so people took a lower (ZAX) rate of exchange a persistent sink would not effect that because people would not want their AD 'Right this moment' which is the only reason to use the ZAX to sell zen. If you want Zen 'right this moment' you open your wallet. Which of course makes the current promotion a wise business move. Hot Dogs instead of AD. No number of hotdogs consumed ( a hotdog sink if you will) will make me buy your 1$ 8 pack when there is a 1$ 10 pack available. Unless (as with the chickens) I am put in the condition of wanting a hotdog immediately and there is a line for the 10 packs.
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    khimera906khimera906 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    What ambisinisterr is saying is very true, and it's what many of us have been saying for quite some time: we need desirable AD sinks. We need a lot of AD removed from the market, not passed to other people in the AH or the ZAX. When the AD will be rarer, they will be more valuable. It's a very simple concept.
    query, you're missing the point. Right now the AD are worthless, but if the AD would be rarer and, therefore, more valuable people wouldn't give them away easily. Yes, you can try to sell a Coal Ward in the AH for 700k, but, if nobody is willing to pay that much, you will drop the price to 600k, or 500k, or until people are willing to pay your price.
    Putting Coal. Wards in the Bazaar would help so much, but I doubt we will ever see that.
    I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
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    query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    You know you're not even right when you say that the AH is not an AD sink? 10% and posting fees. Given the volume of traade that occurs there it may be the largest AD sink in the game. I know supply and demand is econ 101. Would you listen for a second to someone who took more than the freshman required class?
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited July 2014
    It is an AD sink but it is not enough. It still transfers far more AD than it sinks.

    And those sales most often result in Zen Exchange offers. Many sales on the AH end up putting the proceeds right back into the Zen Exchange for more Zen, especially Zen Purchases like overpriced Coal Wards and lockbox items.

    Seriously, you are looking at such a narrow view. You can not look at a slice of the equation in economics. You have to look at the entirity and saying "We have a sink called the AH" means NOTHING if it isn't enough.

    You are saying sinks won't work because AD is printed...
    But refuse to accept the solution is to put more effective sinks in...
    You are not making any sense. You are in fact at this point arguing in circles.
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    cloud990plcloud990pl Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    just give people what they want: transmutes, fashions, mounts and companions + decrease price of mount training and voila! Many AD sinks avaible.
    Add permanent eggs to bazaar (I don't understand why were thoose limited in the first place) and add daily lottery to WB in which player can win various prizes (from prof. resources and XP/Glory boosters through transmutes and fashion including dyes to even companions and mounts-some limited to lottery, all BoA), add more professions tasks giving i.e black ice gloves & orb using AD&BI&somesortofgloves for people who doesn't like to farm HE for eternity or even companions from leadership and alchemy (green slime from alchemy would be nice).
    Reinforments that might be comming with mod4 are a good start but NWO needs moar :P
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    antovarasantovaras Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    query523 wrote: »
    You know you're not even right when you say that the AH is not an AD sink? 10% and posting fees. Given the volume of traade that occurs there it may be the largest AD sink in the game. I know supply and demand is econ 101. Would you listen for a second to someone who took more than the freshman required class?


    A 10% posting fee on the AH is completely ineffective as a sink, as has been proven over the last year with steadily decreasing AD values. What is required is more effective sinks operating at all levels of value. STO proved this was effective when they created the fleet system.

    Multiple people have provided plenty of ideas for sinking AD so I won't repeat them.
    A world to defend
    A city to protect
    innocents to save
    "Why?" They ask "they hate you"
    We're heroes it's what we do.
    *patiently waiting on Paragon City*
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    khimera906khimera906 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    They could add tokens to the Bazaar that help you upgrade your companion gradually, similar to the refinement system for Artifacts and Enchantment. Make them affordable at lower levels and more expensive at higher levels, but not ridiculously so. We've been coming up with AD sinks ideas for a long long time. For a while there were pools and threads on the forum in which they asked for our opinions and ideas, now we are bombarded wit Zen announcements. I refuse to buy anything with Zen till I see some serious interest in the games well being from the developers.
    I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
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    saini50990saini50990 Member Posts: 309 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    u do know that new AD sink are arriving in form of armor kits , refinable weapons and belts , new shirt and pants transmute so wait till they arrive :)
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    query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    ambisinisterr wrote: »
    It is an AD sink but it is not enough. It still transfers far more AD than it sinks.

    And those sales most often result in Zen Exchange offers. Many sales on the AH end up putting the proceeds right back into the Zen Exchange for more Zen, especially Zen Purchases like overpriced Coal Wards and lockbox items.

    Seriously, you are looking at such a narrow view. You can not look at a slice of the equation in economics. You have to look at the entirity and saying "We have a sink called the AH" means NOTHING if it isn't enough.

    You are saying sinks won't work because AD is printed...
    But refuse to accept the solution is to put more effective sinks in...
    You are not making any sense. You are in fact at this point arguing in circles.

    No that's not what I am saying. It's like I don't have the crayons to draw you a simple enough picture. Sinks will not work so long as there is a more profitable mens of selling Zen for AD than the ZAX. As long as I can get 600AD per Zen I will not trade my Zen on the ZAX for 500. How do you not understand that?
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    ulvielulviel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 741 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    query523 wrote: »
    No that's not what I am saying. It's like I don't have the crayons to draw you a simple enough picture. Sinks will not work so long as there is a more profitable mens of selling Zen for AD than the ZAX. As long as I can get 600AD per Zen I will not trade my Zen on the ZAX for 500. How do you not understand that?

    You kinda confused the symptom with the cause. That using ZAX is currently unprofitable is a symptom, and lack of AD sinks and therefore low value of AD is the cause.

    Better AD sinks > less AD in the system and AD more desirable > ZAX ratio under 1/500 again = using AH instead of ZAX not profitable.

    And as an altoholic I'm telling you that making countless accounts with 50 leadeship/invoking chars is simply not a viable option, unless you are a bot. At some point I had 20 chars, I reduced this number to 16 and still leadership/invoking takes about 1 hour daily, not to mention it is not fun at all. I cannot imagine doing that on 50 chars (plus, character slots need to be bought first).
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    query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    ulviel wrote: »
    You kinda confused the symptom with the cause. That using ZAX is currently unprofitable is a symptom, and lack of AD sinks and therefore low value of AD is the cause.

    Better AD sinks > less AD in the system and AD more desirable > ZAX ratio under 1/500 again = using AH instead of ZAX not profitable.

    And as an altoholic I'm telling you that making countless accounts with 50 leadeship/invoking chars is simply not a viable option, unless you are a bot. At some point I had 20 chars, I reduced this number to 16 and still leadership/invoking takes about 1 hour daily, not to mention it is not fun at all. I cannot imagine doing that on 50 chars (plus, character slots need to be bought first).

    Incorrect. Because the demand for wards is not driven by AD demand but demand for enchants. Which is currently going up. An AD sink may affect the price of enchants but not the demand for them. Actually no an AD sink cannot even affect the price of enchants as the primary manufacturing cost is wards and marks.
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    query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    kalindra wrote: »
    ...or not - WAY too much hassle.
    The common casual player fells sorry that there's no way to close the gap to the premium league and limits him-/herself to do T1/PK.
    The other 1% pull their wallet or create an army of bots / alts; but again, witout investing millions of AD in upgraded worker this is quite slow going, and playing all those toons up to Level 10 or 15, and then managing them and transferring their profit to the real toons ist IMHO forbidding time-consuming.

    Or just play the markets which makes more AD per hour. And you can do it while watching NetFlix....
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