The system isn't broken. It's not working the way you or others would like it to, but it's working the way it was intended to work. if you don't like it, stop looking at the leaderboard. It's completely meaningless anyway.
It is broken 100%.
You go down in rank by winning against lower rank adversary.
A few of us took EXTENSIVE time to explain this a few pages ago, we were finally understood by a moderator who forwarded our concerns.
This was provable until they hid the true rank...
Winning should not make you drop in rank. At the very worst you should remain with same score. I am not talking about leaderboard position - but rank score. The one that was hidden. It is going down, on win.
Do you have any arguments for your position that your score lowering on winning is WAI? Any previous systems in sports or somewhere where leaderboard exists where your score is getting lower because you won?
You go down in rank by winning against lower rank adversary.
A few of us took EXTENSIVE time to explain this a few pages ago, we were finally understood by a moderator who forwarded our concerns.
This was provable until they hid the true rank...
Winning should not make you drop in rank. At the very worst you should remain with same score. I am not talking about leaderboard position - but rank score. The one that was hidden. It is going down, on win.
Do you have any arguments for your position that your score lowering on winning is WAI? Any previous systems in sports or somewhere where leaderboard exists where your score is getting lower because you won?
I am looking forward to hear them.
Completely agree with this. Winning against low ELO players as a group of high ELO players will drop you in the leaderboard, and everyone with high ELO who PvPs often has noticed this. It's not plausible that, as someone who is in the top 5-10 pages, the leaderboard is constantly being updated in a way that strictly drops me (and others in my party) in ranking after a streak of winning versus low ELO players. I've yet to see anyone drop from winning against a high ELO group because the leaderboard was being updated.
You go down in rank by winning against lower rank adversary.
A few of us took EXTENSIVE time to explain this a few pages ago, we were finally understood by a moderator who forwarded our concerns.
This was provable until they hid the true rank...
Winning should not make you drop in rank. At the very worst you should remain with same score. I am not talking about leaderboard position - but rank score. The one that was hidden. It is going down, on win.
Do you have any arguments for your position that your score lowering on winning is WAI? Any previous systems in sports or somewhere where leaderboard exists where your score is getting lower because you won?
I am looking forward to hear them.
Akromatic told you why that was. Not my problem if you can't/won't understand what he told you. The leaderboard is utterly without value in any case and nobody with any sense cares about it.
Since I'm feeling super helpful, here's the explanation again:
Thanks to degraafination, futuun, Zeb, and everyone for pointing this out. However, this is not actually a bug. When a player with a high certainty rank plays in a match where the rank spread is high and happens to win, the uncertainty of that player’s rank can actually increase. An increase in uncertainty actually reduces rank. This occurs because our algorithm mixes in a slight amount of uncertainty of a player’s rank every time they play a match. This is what allows players to move quickly up the ranks when they go on a winning streak.
Akromatic told you why that was. Not my problem if you can't/won't understand what he told you. The leaderboard is utterly without value in any case and nobody with any sense cares about it.
Since I'm feeling super helpful, here's the explanation again:
Enjoy.
No disrespect meant, but akromatik, while a very nice person and great community manager, know close to nothing about PvP. This seems to be the case with you as well, since you are refusing (or are not able) to understand the issue and you had to resort to being funny and posting what is pretty much a completely OFF TOPIC explanation instead of...
... actually bring any meaningful arguments yourself.
People that PvP often understood the issue easily.
The leaderboard is here. There is no reason whatsoever to have meaningless, useless devices in the game.
It needs to be perfected and fixed. Also needs to be reset and PvP seasons created.
No disrespect meant, but akromatik, while a very nice person and great community manager, know close to nothing about PvP. This seems to be the case with you as well, since you are refusing (or are not able) to understand the issue and you had to resort to being funny and posting what is pretty much a completely OFF TOPIC explanation instead of...
... actually bring any meaningful arguments yourself.
People that PvP often understood the issue easily.
The leaderboard is here. There is no reason whatsoever to have meaningless, useless devices in the game.
It needs to be perfected and fixed. Also needs to be reset and PvP seasons created.
I understand the issue. The problem is that you don't understand the explanation. And if you think that Akromatik just made up that explanation by himself without reference to how the system actually works then you're more foolish than I thought. He has told you why you lose ranking points when you beat low ranked players. No amount of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la la" will change that. He also said that they are looking at ways to maybe change that behaviour although it might be a purely cosmetic solution.
And now I'm done with you. You're either unable or unwilling to understand how the system works and I have better things to do with my time than attempt to educate you. You carry on losing sleep over a meaningless frippery.
I understand the issue. The problem is that you don't understand the explanation. And if you think that Akromatik just made up that explanation by himself without reference to how the system actually works then you're more foolish than I thought. He has told you why you lose ranking points when you beat low ranked players. No amount of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la la" will change that. He also said that they are looking at ways to maybe change that behaviour although it might be a purely cosmetic solution.
And now I'm done with you. You're either unable or unwilling to understand how the system works and I have better things to do with my time than attempt to educate you. You carry on losing sleep over a meaningless frippery.
He didn't make that up, he picked it from some dev that wouldn't come discuss things with us instead.
You are still yet to bring arguments for your position that losing rank in winning should be tolerable and WAI.
Well, I have a few minutes till my profs are done and I'm off to bed. I am well aware that most of you will dismiss these facts and come up with some excuse to do so, and you are free to do so. I'm doing this for the few top PvPers who want to know why is it that elo isn't shown, how can it be fair that they "lose" ranking when they win etc etc. It's a bit late, so my apologise if I mistype something.
Not a single person stopped to ask "why wont they show us the numbers? They are our numbers, we make them, what is so secrety about it?", most are just rampaging around screaming "broken, fix". Try to comprehend 2 facts:
1. The elo system was created by a psyhics professor. After more years thinking about it then you lived. When some of you try to explain it, it makes me laugh. Thousands of people worked on this system to adapt it to various games, leaderboards, etc. and you think you can just do a few pvp matches and understand it entirely. No, sorry. Dont try to understand it, you cannot know anything for certain because the numbers you need aren't public.
2. The system has been reworked for various purposes. The original system was intended for chess. How do you count in your kills, GS, bots into chess? Every elo system is unique because it uses diferent variables. You can guess why the simple "use win/loss to determine elo" idea wont work. Because you would have tons of carried bots rampaging around in high tier games. Nobody has the elo system, every time it's used it's a elo system, reworked for the purposes needed.
And lets say the mods lose it, and open the whole system to public. The anarchy would destroy pvp in this game in a matter of days. We would go to number 1, where everyone would "know" exactly what is going on. What is this uncertainty factor? We dont want it losing our rating in games we won, delete it! What do you mean, it's that same factor that got us where we are now? Bollocks! And what is this other thing? Not only would the devs have to explain every little aspect of such a delicate system, it would still leave people angry. So please, dont ask for it to be public, it will only create negative outcomes.
And here we are, finaly to the one thing you people really need. Again, everyone overlooks a very tiny, but a very important fact: the system applies to ALL. Most of posts in this thread aren't realy concerned about the quality of the games, just about the outcome. That makes it a lot easier to explain this little cube of suggar. No matter what the system uses, everyone plays the same game. You lost a game because of bots? You can be **** sure everyone that is in the top hast lost a game thx to bots? Lost rating after you won? Have no fear, it has happened to your rivals too!
I hope I made it easier for those dedicated few that wanted some answers, and are willing to accept them. The reason elo system is so widely accepted is because if you are the best, it doesn't matter what is thrown at you, at the end of the day you will still be #1 on the list.
It just happens that I am one of the few people that like to educate people, no matter how stubborn they are. I dont guarantee success, not every egg can be cracked. Some of them are made of wood. But I'll do my best to explain your questions, should you have any. Please keep in mind I can only explain how come hunders of leaderboards are made using this system and so far ZERO (0) have been proven to be broken, or how the system works generally, I do not work for this company nor do I have access to the numbers and factors needed to go into any further debate.
Well, I have a few minutes till my profs are done and I'm off to bed. I am well aware that most of you will dismiss these facts and come up with some excuse to do so, and you are free to do so. I'm doing this for the few top PvPers who want to know why is it that elo isn't shown, how can it be fair that they "lose" ranking when they win etc etc. It's a bit late, so my apologise if I mistype something.
Not a single person stopped to ask "why wont they show us the numbers? They are our numbers, we make them, what is so secrety about it?", most are just rampaging around screaming "broken, fix". Try to comprehend 2 facts:
1. The elo system was created by a psyhics professor. After more years thinking about it then you lived. When some of you try to explain it, it makes me laugh. Thousands of people worked on this system to adapt it to various games, leaderboards, etc. and you think you can just do a few pvp matches and understand it entirely. No, sorry. Dont try to understand it, you cannot know anything for certain because the numbers you need aren't public.
2. The system has been reworked for various purposes. The original system was intended for chess. How do you count in your kills, GS, bots into chess? Every elo system is unique because it uses diferent variables. You can guess why the simple "use win/loss to determine elo" idea wont work. Because you would have tons of carried bots rampaging around in high tier games. Nobody has the elo system, every time it's used it's a elo system, reworked for the purposes needed.
And lets say the mods lose it, and open the whole system to public. The anarchy would destroy pvp in this game in a matter of days. We would go to number 1, where everyone would "know" exactly what is going on. What is this uncertainty factor? We dont want it losing our rating in games we won, delete it! What do you mean, it's that same factor that got us where we are now? Bollocks! And what is this other thing? Not only would the devs have to explain every little aspect of such a delicate system, it would still leave people angry. So please, dont ask for it to be public, it will only create negative outcomes.
And here we are, finaly to the one thing you people really need. Again, everyone overlooks a very tiny, but a very important fact: the system applies to ALL. Most of posts in this thread aren't realy concerned about the quality of the games, just about the outcome. That makes it a lot easier to explain this little cube of suggar. No matter what the system uses, everyone plays the same game. You lost a game because of bots? You can be **** sure everyone that is in the top hast lost a game thx to bots? Lost rating after you won? Have no fear, it has happened to your rivals too!
I hope I made it easier for those dedicated few that wanted some answers, and are willing to accept them. The reason elo system is so widely accepted is because if you are the best, it doesn't matter what is thrown at you, at the end of the day you will still be #1 on the list.
It just happens that I am one of the few people that like to educate people, no matter how stubborn they are. I dont guarantee success, not every egg can be cracked. Some of them are made of wood. But I'll do my best to explain your questions, should you have any. Please keep in mind I can only explain how come hunders of leaderboards are made using this system and so far ZERO (0) have been proven to be broken, or how the system works generally, I do not work for this company nor do I have access to the numbers and factors needed to go into any further debate.
Broken is used to loosely, perhaps. Unfair might be a more appropriate word. You say don't worry if you win and go back a few pages because it has happened to others, I say that is rubbish. Looks to me like the dedicated pvp'ers suffer the most from this as they would most likely be on the winning side of things and losing at the same time.
Do you find it makes sense to win and not, at the very minimum, stay at the same level? When players have no choice what their competition will be and winning still makes them lose... what they (devs) think they have gifted us becomes worthless. It is no longer a feature of the game, if you will, it's a broken idea that has no purpose.
ELO is not working, some player with 18k+ gs gear, they take off their gear and queue for pvp, which will let them have 90% chance to join the low gs match, then ware their top gear turn on the god mode!
ELO is not working, some player with 18k+ gs gear, they take off their gear and queue for pvp, which will let them have 90% chance to join the low gs match, then ware their top gear turn on the god mode!
This is complete nonsense. Players are match on ELO rating not GS for this very reason.
Does nobody actually read anything posted on here by the devs?
He didn't make that up, he picked it from some dev that wouldn't come discuss things with us instead.
You are still yet to bring arguments for your position that losing rank in winning should be tolerable and WAI.
How long am I supposed to wait?
You'll wait forever as that is not my position.
My position is that the ELO system is WAI because the devs say it is and have explained why it works the way it does. Losing rank by winning is inconsequential.
Broken is used to loosely, perhaps. Unfair might be a more appropriate word. You say don't worry if you win and go back a few pages because it has happened to others, I say that is rubbish. Looks to me like the dedicated pvp'ers suffer the most from this as they would most likely be on the winning side of things and losing at the same time.
Do you find it makes sense to win and not, at the very minimum, stay at the same level? When players have no choice what their competition will be and winning still makes them lose... what they (devs) think they have gifted us becomes worthless. It is no longer a feature of the game, if you will, it's a broken idea that has no purpose.
We are making progress! But still, no, the system is not unfair when looked at as a whole, only when you look at individual games you find this "unfairness" because you win and you drop. Lets look at it this way: top 10 PvPers are playing their games. Number 6 gets a win and drop. He drops to 10th place and he is pissed because of it. However, in a few days or less, it is very likely that numbers 7,8,9 and 10 are also going to get a win and drop, restoring numbers 6 to his rightful place. Hell, he might even jump to number 5 or 4, because the win&drop happened to them too! Talk about unfair. And so it goes on, the wheel keeps turning, but eventualy it all balances out and everyone is where they deserve to be. If everyone is affected by it, it's not unfair because you all have the same pros/cons of the system. To try to demonstrate: the leaderboard is like a nice cup of milk, and the players are cocoa. Drop the cocoa into the milk, and it's gonna be mayhem, cocoa everywhere, no organisation etc. Then you take the spoon (which is time) and you stir the whole thing. The longer you stir, the more balanced the drink will be, eventualy all the cocoa will be absorbed, and you have a nice, delicious beverage. Drinking it would probably be the end of the season, but we still dont have seasons here
As for the second part, I already stated that it is next to impossible to teach people just how the system works. Taking Akro's "uncertainty" factor which most of you believe is the main reason for this win&drop, here's a rough scetch of what happens: To reach the top of the list, you need around 2000 elo. When you get a "perfect" match, perfectly balanced etc, you will get aprox 4-5 elo for winning it. Keep in mind these numbers are made up by me, they aren't connected to this system. Anyway, you need around 400 wins to get to the top, and that's just wins, dont think you will have a 400 winning streak. And then we got uncertainty. You win 1 game, 5 elo. 2 game streak, 6 elo. 3 game, 10 elo. 4 game streak, 15 elo. 5 game streak, 30 elo. You can reach the top with 50 wins. Not bad, not bad at all. Also, just because you lost a game or 2 doesn't mean you uncertainty will reset. That's a 100% fact. You willl prety much be scoring big on wins, and losing little on losses. THIS STUFF IS GREAT! But wait, what is stopping me from just slingshotting when I reach the top, and scoring 50-100 elo per win, making me uncatchable once I win just 3-4 games? Well, this is what win&drop is. Are you still certain it is unfair? Or would you prefer there was no uncertainty and every new char/player would have to grind hundreds of games to reach the place they deserve?
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
edited July 2014
Are you losing ranking? Or is someone gaining?
Look if the ELO system is working the way intended, and people below you go past you in rank because they are fighting harder opponents it MAKES sense. Why this is so hard to understand is beyond me. Especially if it only refreshes on intervals?
You fight weak opponents - you get the win, but your rank doesn't move up or down.
Someone fight's strong opponents and gets the win - they move from under you to above you... but not down.
It's simple math.
On a win:
Rank A) strong versus weak - does not move
Rank weak versus strong - moves up 1 spot
Rank C) weak versus very strong -moves up 2 spots
So now the order would be this on instant refresh:
Rank moved up 1 rank past A
Rank A)
Rank C)
Then:
Rank C) moved up 2 ranks past B and A
Rank
Rank A)
Then you throw in the delay, where it processes several matches and THEN updates... it easy to see. You didn't move down for winning, people moved up for winning against stronger opponents.
We are making progress! But still, no, the system is not unfair when looked at as a whole, only when you look at individual games you find this "unfairness" because you win and you drop. Lets look at it this way: top 10 PvPers are playing their games. Number 6 gets a win and drop. He drops to 10th place and he is pissed because of it. However, in a few days or less, it is very likely that numbers 7,8,9 and 10 are also going to get a win and drop, restoring numbers 6 to his rightful place. Hell, he might even jump to number 5 or 4, because the win&drop happened to them too! Talk about unfair. And so it goes on, the wheel keeps turning, but eventualy it all balances out and everyone is where they deserve to be. If everyone is affected by it, it's not unfair because you all have the same pros/cons of the system. To try to demonstrate: the leaderboard is like a nice cup of milk, and the players are cocoa. Drop the cocoa into the milk, and it's gonna be mayhem, cocoa everywhere, no organisation etc. Then you take the spoon (which is time) and you stir the whole thing. The longer you stir, the more balanced the drink will be, eventualy all the cocoa will be absorbed, and you have a nice, delicious beverage. Drinking it would probably be the end of the season, but we still dont have seasons here
Well, this is what win&drop is. Are you still certain it is unfair? Or would you prefer there was no uncertainty and every new char/player would have to grind hundreds of games to reach the place they deserve?
I guess I'll start by saying, no, it does not all balance out and yes, it is still unfair. In the perfect world you have created in your first paragraph it would balance out. In the game, your standing can literally never balance out. A random player at, let's say, your equal level can just simply have more favorable match-ups then you...forever(since new players will join the game and old ones will leave). We cannot control who we play against besides seein' who in your friends list is in an instance (and que around them) or sinc que to play against them but that is a gamble of convenience depending on who is around. Otherwise you get what the game gives you. If the match is against low elo players, what is your option? Leave...counts as a loss, lose...and take a big hit or win and still drop. Although the elo here is an attempt, I don't think anything in this game directs this to ever balance out. So the proper way to look at this is to instead, fill your cup with water, add oil -then stir away.
And yes, new players should have to grind whatever number of games to get to where they deserve. If they win against tougher opponents they will progress faster. Then all of those at the top can continue to battle for the top positions. If a champ wants to keep fightin', he has to defend his title.
So, you are saying that I am wrong because your whole explanation is based on someone getting better matchups then me ALL the time? ****, find me that person so we can go to a casino and then we can buy all the stuff we want! What I said still stands, simply because if you follow the leaderboard for a week-2 you will see that it's true, whether you understand how and why or not. The top PvP players will still be up top, with some minor adjustments because people are supposed to keep climbing and improving, somebody will make it to the top lodge. You say the whole system will never balance out, and yet you use only point out the fact that YOU won&dropped, while it has happened to EVERYONE in the top bracket at some point. You talk about a player that keeps getting favorable matches, and yet you say you are "scared" to que because you can't control who you are up against. Mb we should introduce fixed PvP matches, and the Neverwinter mafia. So much about the wish of "balancing PvP"
But your main concern is still the win&drop. I'll explain to you what I would do if they removed the option of winning and dropping: First off, I make a new char. Then, I get some decent gear, with AD, I dont fight in arena yet. Then I use the fact that I know that there is no brake to hold me back on a killer winning streak, because it was just removed (for your convenience). I get a KILLER squad which I most likely pay 50$ each to carry me. And then I started quing. I am winning HARD, and my elo gain just keeps rising, it never falls off. At one point,I reach you, the top player, who is at lets say 2300 elo. While you are sitting there for a while, I'm so juiced on elogain that, when I win, I will score 500 elo and rise to 2800 elo, while you will never reach me there because you only win 2-3 elo per game. Done! I Am now officialy #1 forever, because nobody can reach me. And this is just one possible scenario. Like I said, I do not work for PW and I do not have insight into how the system works, I can only gather information from this thread and what other devs/mods posted.
While the previous idea is just a speculation, a possibility, here is what is a 100% fact: The last thing PW wants is to make you guys angry. You are the people that keep the game alive. I know you guys dont like it, but this win&drop is part of a main component that cannot be replaced without wrecking the whole system. Believe it or not, it also protects you top players from scenarios like above. They did the best they could, and the elo system is prety new. It will be improved, but it takes time. If you want top quality service, then pay a monthly fee. Oh, this is a 100% free game? Well, then I'm **** happy it's this good, and minor glitches like this doesn't bother me one bit. And I know the devs are hard at work to improve this game every day.
and even if you stir oil and water, it will still balance to a point, forming a fine oil layer on top. Instead of thinking about how to undermine my methaphor with a thought that only has the goal of conflicting mine, read a few more times and try to understand.
Jeez, butthurt much? Here man, I'll keep it simple. Yes, the win/drop has happened to everyone at the top. It simply CAN happen to someone more often than another. And it can keep happening in that fashion forever. You seem to have a problem with someone "conflicting" your point. I am not doing it for sport, I don't agree with you. If I tell you this and why I do not agree with it...we are having a discussion. That's just kind of how things work. I used your metaphor because you seemed to be in your happy place discussing the nice warm glass of milk and cocoa...yum. But after a simple, small exchange of differences you get a bit bent about the disagreement...so with that I'll leave you to your social awkwardness and your chocolate milk until you can calm down bro.
Ahem, well I have to say this whole thread has been incredibly enlightening. I was under the impression that leaderboard score was somehow based off of a win/loss, kill/death, assists/matches metric. Now that I know that it is based on a ELO score, and a general idea of how the ELO system works I am alot more comfortable with it. I want to give Lakson props for giving me greater understanding of this.
I do think that match ups would greatly benefit from roughly dividing the end game pvp population into two brackets. I mean, imagine if a PVP que brought in players from the 1-59 range and mixed them with 60s. There is enough of a substantial difference between BIS spec and a fresh 60 that they should NEVER be brought into contact with each other. The argument that que times would increase is valid, however, I for one would much rather wait 5 minutes for a 50% chance at a decent matchup, than to have a que pop within a minute that has a 80% chance of a bad match-up.
The whole issue of ELO falling on a win has me in fits of giggles. I can easily see this coming from BIS spec twinks forming full premades and being completely obsessed with the leaderboard. I took a break from NW for about 4 months and came back to find new armor sets, a need for glory, tenacity, and a leaderboard. I climbed the ranks rapidly and made it to page 30 or so within about a week. Afterwards I could find no rhyme or reason to my rise or fall in the rankings and for the most part just stopped caring.
In looking back I see now that my ranking is probably pretty accurate and that it does not jump around nearly as much as it did at the beginning and it tends to go up when I win. This is probably because I ONLY solo que. If anything the only inaccurate part of my ranking is that-I haven't really been trying. As a perma-stealth TR who is more than proficient with flurry I find that if I back cap I will win the majority of any match-ups that are remotely balanced. I find that if I do this the match often results in the other team giving up early and everyone standing around with their thumbs up their rear, so instead I go mid and play the match as close as possible. This usually makes people try harder for longer and is on the whole, alot more fun. It also costs me a lot of wins. Now that I know that being pounded by a premade is not as damaging as I had thought, and that winning in close matches is likely to up my ranking I might just see how high I can go, although this would cut down on my fun.
In the end the leaderboard is a indication of what exactly again.
Which class is currently the most broken and un-balanced? Which individuals are exploiting broken and bugged powers/enchants/etc? Which players spent money, exploited dungeons, or exploited their fellow players to achieve levels of BIS gear and wealth that they would never have from playing legit and fair? Which players are the most skilled, tactical, and competent?
I would say the first three questions are equally important as the last one, and therefore the leaderboard essentially means jack-all.
In the end the leaderboard is a indication of what exactly again.
Which class is currently the most broken and un-balanced? Which individuals are exploiting broken and bugged powers/enchants/etc? Which players spent money, exploited dungeons, or exploited their fellow players to achieve levels of BIS gear and wealth that they would never have from playing legit and fair? Which players are the most skilled, tactical, and competent?
I would say the first three questions are equally important as the last one, and therefore the leaderboard essentially means jack-all.
Although I agree that the leaderboard in its current form is horsecrap, it still shows how desperately PVP is in need of a competitive system. Smart players pointing at their ranking in the leaderboard and using it to define their "skill" is pathetic but understandable. They have nothing else.
@macjae Only a small number of people that realy have the will to understand the problem will come that far. Yes, that is the core of almost every MMO problem. It has been worked on for years, and while there have been improvements, the good old saying will always stand: You can't please the world. To add to it, devs spend years learning how to code, and people that work in public relations spend years learning human behavior. Devs code, while PR ppl deal with grumpy people that are always grumpy and always want more for themselves, disregarding others. A few pages back I saw something that is most likely a real quote from a developer (but not official, just something picked up in a casual chat) that stated that he realy can't be bothered explaining the system to someone who doesn't have the will or capacity to understand it. To sum it up, you will never please the psychological factor of the crowds. The simpler you make it, happier will the crowds be. And you can't make a simple elo system. Or at least one that is simple to understand.
"The simple solution is to not penalize people's ratings for winning as long as they have little control over who their opponents are." Indeed it is simple, but I already said that to remove this win&drop, devs would have to remake the whole system, find new factors, plausibles etc. Also, there is A LOT of control in who your opponents are. Numerous times it is mentioned that "we all know who drops and who doesn't, because we are all in each others friendlists, and we que when we see them in dungeons to avoid them." The win&drop also prevents high tier players from "farming elo" thanks to the fact that they get very low people in matches, but nobody in high tier PvP will admit this, because all they care about is how much points they make once the game is done, they dont care about other players or prety much anything else.
@shadowbunslice thank you for the kind words, and most of what you said is an even simpler explanation of what I said, so thanks again. However, what you said in the end is not entirely true. The main concept of forming a premade party for any MMO activity is that there are always pros and cons that every class brings to the pool. And that is something that Neverwinter did a very good job on. THere isn't an obsolete class for PvP. Everything can be played in high tier PvP and they all have unique mechanics. True, TRs are a bit above others considering PUGs, because they can hold bases well, assault bases well, and are very annoying to 1v1. They are good in premades too, but their assault potential is countered by organisation that premades often have. I see a lot of HRs in the top bracket, and playing one myself I understand why. The amaising versatility and survival, comboed with decent damage makes HRs great for any premade setup. Also our grasping root mechanic is prety much made MADE for PvP. As for GWF, I hear "broken, broken, broken" all the time, but the only thing that is slightly anoying is the CC immunity they can activate once in a while. As for what they bring to the team, I dont realy have to say much. Great survival, great dmg, one of the best for holding choke points. DC prety much explains it. Heals, debuffs, buffs, what's there not to like? GF might be a bit neglected, as is expected of a PvE oriented tanking class. However, I have grown to have their ability to throw me out out of the control point radius, making us lose control over it when contesting, as well as insane survival, also nice prone/dmg to boot. To sumarise, there isn't a class you can't reach top tier with if you have enough skill and will. So no, they aint broken to the point of having 90% GWF fill the top tiers like warriors did in WoW wotlk module. The meaning of leaderboard is simple: without it, PvP would lose much of interest and people would just play it cause of "meh, lets get that daily AD"
Comments
It is broken 100%.
You go down in rank by winning against lower rank adversary.
A few of us took EXTENSIVE time to explain this a few pages ago, we were finally understood by a moderator who forwarded our concerns.
This was provable until they hid the true rank...
Winning should not make you drop in rank. At the very worst you should remain with same score. I am not talking about leaderboard position - but rank score. The one that was hidden. It is going down, on win.
Do you have any arguments for your position that your score lowering on winning is WAI? Any previous systems in sports or somewhere where leaderboard exists where your score is getting lower because you won?
I am looking forward to hear them.
Completely agree with this. Winning against low ELO players as a group of high ELO players will drop you in the leaderboard, and everyone with high ELO who PvPs often has noticed this. It's not plausible that, as someone who is in the top 5-10 pages, the leaderboard is constantly being updated in a way that strictly drops me (and others in my party) in ranking after a streak of winning versus low ELO players. I've yet to see anyone drop from winning against a high ELO group because the leaderboard was being updated.
Since I'm feeling super helpful, here's the explanation again:
Enjoy.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
No disrespect meant, but akromatik, while a very nice person and great community manager, know close to nothing about PvP. This seems to be the case with you as well, since you are refusing (or are not able) to understand the issue and you had to resort to being funny and posting what is pretty much a completely OFF TOPIC explanation instead of...
... actually bring any meaningful arguments yourself.
People that PvP often understood the issue easily.
The leaderboard is here. There is no reason whatsoever to have meaningless, useless devices in the game.
It needs to be perfected and fixed. Also needs to be reset and PvP seasons created.
And now I'm done with you. You're either unable or unwilling to understand how the system works and I have better things to do with my time than attempt to educate you. You carry on losing sleep over a meaningless frippery.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
He didn't make that up, he picked it from some dev that wouldn't come discuss things with us instead.
You are still yet to bring arguments for your position that losing rank in winning should be tolerable and WAI.
How long am I supposed to wait?
Not a single person stopped to ask "why wont they show us the numbers? They are our numbers, we make them, what is so secrety about it?", most are just rampaging around screaming "broken, fix". Try to comprehend 2 facts:
1. The elo system was created by a psyhics professor. After more years thinking about it then you lived. When some of you try to explain it, it makes me laugh. Thousands of people worked on this system to adapt it to various games, leaderboards, etc. and you think you can just do a few pvp matches and understand it entirely. No, sorry. Dont try to understand it, you cannot know anything for certain because the numbers you need aren't public.
2. The system has been reworked for various purposes. The original system was intended for chess. How do you count in your kills, GS, bots into chess? Every elo system is unique because it uses diferent variables. You can guess why the simple "use win/loss to determine elo" idea wont work. Because you would have tons of carried bots rampaging around in high tier games. Nobody has the elo system, every time it's used it's a elo system, reworked for the purposes needed.
And lets say the mods lose it, and open the whole system to public. The anarchy would destroy pvp in this game in a matter of days. We would go to number 1, where everyone would "know" exactly what is going on. What is this uncertainty factor? We dont want it losing our rating in games we won, delete it! What do you mean, it's that same factor that got us where we are now? Bollocks! And what is this other thing? Not only would the devs have to explain every little aspect of such a delicate system, it would still leave people angry. So please, dont ask for it to be public, it will only create negative outcomes.
And here we are, finaly to the one thing you people really need. Again, everyone overlooks a very tiny, but a very important fact: the system applies to ALL. Most of posts in this thread aren't realy concerned about the quality of the games, just about the outcome. That makes it a lot easier to explain this little cube of suggar. No matter what the system uses, everyone plays the same game. You lost a game because of bots? You can be **** sure everyone that is in the top hast lost a game thx to bots? Lost rating after you won? Have no fear, it has happened to your rivals too!
I hope I made it easier for those dedicated few that wanted some answers, and are willing to accept them. The reason elo system is so widely accepted is because if you are the best, it doesn't matter what is thrown at you, at the end of the day you will still be #1 on the list.
It just happens that I am one of the few people that like to educate people, no matter how stubborn they are. I dont guarantee success, not every egg can be cracked. Some of them are made of wood. But I'll do my best to explain your questions, should you have any. Please keep in mind I can only explain how come hunders of leaderboards are made using this system and so far ZERO (0) have been proven to be broken, or how the system works generally, I do not work for this company nor do I have access to the numbers and factors needed to go into any further debate.
Broken is used to loosely, perhaps. Unfair might be a more appropriate word. You say don't worry if you win and go back a few pages because it has happened to others, I say that is rubbish. Looks to me like the dedicated pvp'ers suffer the most from this as they would most likely be on the winning side of things and losing at the same time.
Do you find it makes sense to win and not, at the very minimum, stay at the same level? When players have no choice what their competition will be and winning still makes them lose... what they (devs) think they have gifted us becomes worthless. It is no longer a feature of the game, if you will, it's a broken idea that has no purpose.
Does nobody actually read anything posted on here by the devs?
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
My position is that the ELO system is WAI because the devs say it is and have explained why it works the way it does. Losing rank by winning is inconsequential.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
We are making progress! But still, no, the system is not unfair when looked at as a whole, only when you look at individual games you find this "unfairness" because you win and you drop. Lets look at it this way: top 10 PvPers are playing their games. Number 6 gets a win and drop. He drops to 10th place and he is pissed because of it. However, in a few days or less, it is very likely that numbers 7,8,9 and 10 are also going to get a win and drop, restoring numbers 6 to his rightful place. Hell, he might even jump to number 5 or 4, because the win&drop happened to them too! Talk about unfair. And so it goes on, the wheel keeps turning, but eventualy it all balances out and everyone is where they deserve to be. If everyone is affected by it, it's not unfair because you all have the same pros/cons of the system. To try to demonstrate: the leaderboard is like a nice cup of milk, and the players are cocoa. Drop the cocoa into the milk, and it's gonna be mayhem, cocoa everywhere, no organisation etc. Then you take the spoon (which is time) and you stir the whole thing. The longer you stir, the more balanced the drink will be, eventualy all the cocoa will be absorbed, and you have a nice, delicious beverage. Drinking it would probably be the end of the season, but we still dont have seasons here
As for the second part, I already stated that it is next to impossible to teach people just how the system works. Taking Akro's "uncertainty" factor which most of you believe is the main reason for this win&drop, here's a rough scetch of what happens: To reach the top of the list, you need around 2000 elo. When you get a "perfect" match, perfectly balanced etc, you will get aprox 4-5 elo for winning it. Keep in mind these numbers are made up by me, they aren't connected to this system. Anyway, you need around 400 wins to get to the top, and that's just wins, dont think you will have a 400 winning streak. And then we got uncertainty. You win 1 game, 5 elo. 2 game streak, 6 elo. 3 game, 10 elo. 4 game streak, 15 elo. 5 game streak, 30 elo. You can reach the top with 50 wins. Not bad, not bad at all. Also, just because you lost a game or 2 doesn't mean you uncertainty will reset. That's a 100% fact. You willl prety much be scoring big on wins, and losing little on losses. THIS STUFF IS GREAT! But wait, what is stopping me from just slingshotting when I reach the top, and scoring 50-100 elo per win, making me uncatchable once I win just 3-4 games? Well, this is what win&drop is. Are you still certain it is unfair? Or would you prefer there was no uncertainty and every new char/player would have to grind hundreds of games to reach the place they deserve?
Look if the ELO system is working the way intended, and people below you go past you in rank because they are fighting harder opponents it MAKES sense. Why this is so hard to understand is beyond me. Especially if it only refreshes on intervals?
You fight weak opponents - you get the win, but your rank doesn't move up or down.
Someone fight's strong opponents and gets the win - they move from under you to above you... but not down.
It's simple math.
On a win:
Rank A) strong versus weak - does not move
Rank
Rank C) weak versus very strong -moves up 2 spots
So now the order would be this on instant refresh:
Rank
Rank A)
Rank C)
Then:
Rank C) moved up 2 ranks past B and A
Rank
Rank A)
Then you throw in the delay, where it processes several matches and THEN updates... it easy to see. You didn't move down for winning, people moved up for winning against stronger opponents.
I guess I'll start by saying, no, it does not all balance out and yes, it is still unfair. In the perfect world you have created in your first paragraph it would balance out. In the game, your standing can literally never balance out. A random player at, let's say, your equal level can just simply have more favorable match-ups then you...forever(since new players will join the game and old ones will leave). We cannot control who we play against besides seein' who in your friends list is in an instance (and que around them) or sinc que to play against them but that is a gamble of convenience depending on who is around. Otherwise you get what the game gives you. If the match is against low elo players, what is your option? Leave...counts as a loss, lose...and take a big hit or win and still drop. Although the elo here is an attempt, I don't think anything in this game directs this to ever balance out. So the proper way to look at this is to instead, fill your cup with water, add oil -then stir away.
And yes, new players should have to grind whatever number of games to get to where they deserve. If they win against tougher opponents they will progress faster. Then all of those at the top can continue to battle for the top positions. If a champ wants to keep fightin', he has to defend his title.
But your main concern is still the win&drop. I'll explain to you what I would do if they removed the option of winning and dropping: First off, I make a new char. Then, I get some decent gear, with AD, I dont fight in arena yet. Then I use the fact that I know that there is no brake to hold me back on a killer winning streak, because it was just removed (for your convenience). I get a KILLER squad which I most likely pay 50$ each to carry me. And then I started quing. I am winning HARD, and my elo gain just keeps rising, it never falls off. At one point,I reach you, the top player, who is at lets say 2300 elo. While you are sitting there for a while, I'm so juiced on elogain that, when I win, I will score 500 elo and rise to 2800 elo, while you will never reach me there because you only win 2-3 elo per game. Done! I Am now officialy #1 forever, because nobody can reach me. And this is just one possible scenario. Like I said, I do not work for PW and I do not have insight into how the system works, I can only gather information from this thread and what other devs/mods posted.
While the previous idea is just a speculation, a possibility, here is what is a 100% fact: The last thing PW wants is to make you guys angry. You are the people that keep the game alive. I know you guys dont like it, but this win&drop is part of a main component that cannot be replaced without wrecking the whole system. Believe it or not, it also protects you top players from scenarios like above. They did the best they could, and the elo system is prety new. It will be improved, but it takes time. If you want top quality service, then pay a monthly fee. Oh, this is a 100% free game? Well, then I'm **** happy it's this good, and minor glitches like this doesn't bother me one bit. And I know the devs are hard at work to improve this game every day.
and even if you stir oil and water, it will still balance to a point, forming a fine oil layer on top. Instead of thinking about how to undermine my methaphor with a thought that only has the goal of conflicting mine, read a few more times and try to understand.
This is why we need SEASONAL RESETS.
What is a PvP Season? Well I am too lazy to explain use Google.
@cbrowne:
No, you win, and you lose ranking score.
Ranking Score IS NOT your position on Leaderboard. Ranking Score is a hidden number that goes up to 53 or so.
Explaining further:
Not long ago there was a command (that was disabled in a patch) that revealed the hidden score. So it would look like:
- Player X, leaderboard position 1, GS: 17050, Score: 53.000345
Now.
The Score is what determines Leaderboard position.
The Score can and will go down by winning against low score players.
This in turn will drop you on the leaderboard.
All I have to say.
Even gentlemancrush, the dev, has stated, that IT IS NOT WORKING AS INTENTED and that u not should loose rating while winning! Search the dev tracker.
It dazzles me how people can defend this flaw…
I do think that match ups would greatly benefit from roughly dividing the end game pvp population into two brackets. I mean, imagine if a PVP que brought in players from the 1-59 range and mixed them with 60s. There is enough of a substantial difference between BIS spec and a fresh 60 that they should NEVER be brought into contact with each other. The argument that que times would increase is valid, however, I for one would much rather wait 5 minutes for a 50% chance at a decent matchup, than to have a que pop within a minute that has a 80% chance of a bad match-up.
The whole issue of ELO falling on a win has me in fits of giggles. I can easily see this coming from BIS spec twinks forming full premades and being completely obsessed with the leaderboard. I took a break from NW for about 4 months and came back to find new armor sets, a need for glory, tenacity, and a leaderboard. I climbed the ranks rapidly and made it to page 30 or so within about a week. Afterwards I could find no rhyme or reason to my rise or fall in the rankings and for the most part just stopped caring.
In looking back I see now that my ranking is probably pretty accurate and that it does not jump around nearly as much as it did at the beginning and it tends to go up when I win. This is probably because I ONLY solo que. If anything the only inaccurate part of my ranking is that-I haven't really been trying. As a perma-stealth TR who is more than proficient with flurry I find that if I back cap I will win the majority of any match-ups that are remotely balanced. I find that if I do this the match often results in the other team giving up early and everyone standing around with their thumbs up their rear, so instead I go mid and play the match as close as possible. This usually makes people try harder for longer and is on the whole, alot more fun. It also costs me a lot of wins. Now that I know that being pounded by a premade is not as damaging as I had thought, and that winning in close matches is likely to up my ranking I might just see how high I can go, although this would cut down on my fun.
In the end the leaderboard is a indication of what exactly again.
Which class is currently the most broken and un-balanced? Which individuals are exploiting broken and bugged powers/enchants/etc? Which players spent money, exploited dungeons, or exploited their fellow players to achieve levels of BIS gear and wealth that they would never have from playing legit and fair? Which players are the most skilled, tactical, and competent?
I would say the first three questions are equally important as the last one, and therefore the leaderboard essentially means jack-all.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
"The simple solution is to not penalize people's ratings for winning as long as they have little control over who their opponents are." Indeed it is simple, but I already said that to remove this win&drop, devs would have to remake the whole system, find new factors, plausibles etc. Also, there is A LOT of control in who your opponents are. Numerous times it is mentioned that "we all know who drops and who doesn't, because we are all in each others friendlists, and we que when we see them in dungeons to avoid them." The win&drop also prevents high tier players from "farming elo" thanks to the fact that they get very low people in matches, but nobody in high tier PvP will admit this, because all they care about is how much points they make once the game is done, they dont care about other players or prety much anything else.
@shadowbunslice thank you for the kind words, and most of what you said is an even simpler explanation of what I said, so thanks again. However, what you said in the end is not entirely true. The main concept of forming a premade party for any MMO activity is that there are always pros and cons that every class brings to the pool. And that is something that Neverwinter did a very good job on. THere isn't an obsolete class for PvP. Everything can be played in high tier PvP and they all have unique mechanics. True, TRs are a bit above others considering PUGs, because they can hold bases well, assault bases well, and are very annoying to 1v1. They are good in premades too, but their assault potential is countered by organisation that premades often have. I see a lot of HRs in the top bracket, and playing one myself I understand why. The amaising versatility and survival, comboed with decent damage makes HRs great for any premade setup. Also our grasping root mechanic is prety much made MADE for PvP. As for GWF, I hear "broken, broken, broken" all the time, but the only thing that is slightly anoying is the CC immunity they can activate once in a while. As for what they bring to the team, I dont realy have to say much. Great survival, great dmg, one of the best for holding choke points. DC prety much explains it. Heals, debuffs, buffs, what's there not to like? GF might be a bit neglected, as is expected of a PvE oriented tanking class. However, I have grown to have their ability to throw me out out of the control point radius, making us lose control over it when contesting, as well as insane survival, also nice prone/dmg to boot. To sumarise, there isn't a class you can't reach top tier with if you have enough skill and will. So no, they aint broken to the point of having 90% GWF fill the top tiers like warriors did in WoW wotlk module. The meaning of leaderboard is simple: without it, PvP would lose much of interest and people would just play it cause of "meh, lets get that daily AD"