I played cw, for both pve(maxed int,elf) and pvp(maxed cons, halfling) before tenacity and healing depression, and they can hardly beat(you will probably beat the HR if u dodge all the CA's) a equally geared and specced for pvp HR.
Yes, before tenacity CW was able to do pretty good cc, but against good specced HR,TR(semiperma),GWF(IVsenti).. that cc is nothing(once u burst all encounters u going to die in 80% of the time)
Yes, i know TR's used to 1 shot people, i was able to LB and 25k to squissy(but against good builded GWF,HR,TR(semiperma), u will die once u use ur encounters) targets easily.
About the gwf.. well i dont know, when i started playing this game, the GWF(pvp builded) were able to facetank 1 vs 5 and kill the 5..
GWF is broken atm, they should fix roar atleast.
People complaining a lot about HR's and not that much against GWF,TR, since they notice that HR can kill GWF,TR in 1 vs 1 situations most of the time, they have more mobility than TR,GWF since the 4 piece set bonus....that makes HR more op than GWF and TR, consequently more qq for HR's
Youre totally missing the keyword here... NOT EVERY TR/HR/GWF rolls the same stats! Youre going to judge based on what you as a CW can do? Not every GWF is iv, not every TR went permastealth, not every HR went pathfinder with pvp set.
Actually, when HRs first came out, the ONLY and I mean ONLY HRs I had problems with were ones that used Constricting Arrow. before tenacity, and pre-mod3, the CW had no equal on the battlefield. GWF was only just picking up their stride, TR was being nerfed into permastealth(still had some burst damage TRs), and HR didn't even exist.
In fact, as stated by devs, tenacity was a big hit on all classes, but CWs were only hit hardest because they did just that CC and burst damage! the other classes basically had just burst damage! Do you see why people went with tankier builds? The pvp went from 1 shot fests, to players tanking other players, and CW were the main class hurt in that aspect...
Pre-mod3 and tenacity, I had no problem as a CW. Even when HR came out, it was 50/50(on my HR, kill/killed by CWs. on my CW, kill/killed by HRs). It was all fair until tenacity.
Youre judging a class on how it performs in UNBALANCED, MISQUEUED PUGS VERSUS PREMADE PVP? Against similarly geared opponents, whos more OP? the GWF who CAN tank 5v1, or the HR whos a better 1v1 class? The TR made to contest nodes, or the TR that kills lower geared squishies that don't know when theyre outgunned?
So, saying a statement like "no no no GWF is just fine currently....." just further perpetuates the imbalance. So now HRs get nerfed to the ground... now the GWFs have no equal on the battlefield again, wheres the balance in that? Nerf everything else, while leaving me alone IS NOT balance.
Many people forget that:
-theres never going to be balance
-people are just going to complain and QQ that x person beat me, so his class needs to be nerfed
-QQ fests by biased people lead to further imbalance
-balance would be best served by bringing everyone in line, NOT QQing until somethings worse than everything else...
P.S. sorry if I sounded so offensive in my post before this. Ive played EVERY CLASS SINCE OPEN BETA in both PvP and PvE. Yet I end up finding more people who whine about something without at least trying it first, or understanding the mechanics of what theyre arguing against. ie, HRs are on the up right now, but too many people QQ instead of look up things(like Forest Meditation), so they don't realize that it has limited uses, and not as strong as they think... Its the combination of what some people are doing that make the class powerful, not the whole class. My highest geared pvp class is my HR, and I don't see myself tanking 5v1 players. My GWF is my 2nd highest, and he can fight with 3 similarly geared players, and put up quite the fight, but I can and will lose to more skilled players than me.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
And that gf is a pretty good geared 1(40khp+- high regen, high def)
just sit and see that guy attacking you dies....
Youre also watching a biased, non-variable setup too. GF obviously doing jack for damage(especially Swordmaster... thank god its getting boosted in mod4!), WITHOUT stuns/knockbacks/prones, only attack an HR with at wills. That's not a GWF/HR/CW... that's a "I can tank hits, but hit like a pillow" class right now. low dps/low hits versus the heal effect=hes able to heal more than you can dish out. And that is being changed...
Go Conqueror, build big power/armor pen, use knockbacks/stuns/prones to move him out of split the sky/thornward range(your other vid showed that GFs can be mobile, and fight while doing so), actually use your encounters/dailies. Using a lopsidedly made video for an example isn't right.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Youre totally missing the keyword here... NOT EVERY TR/HR/GWF rolls the same stats! Youre going to judge based on what you as a CW can do? Not every GWF is iv, not every TR went permastealth, not every HR went pathfinder with pvp set.
Actually, when HRs first came out, the ONLY and I mean ONLY HRs I had problems with were ones that used Constricting Arrow. before tenacity, and pre-mod3, the CW had no equal on the battlefield. GWF was only just picking up their stride, TR was being nerfed into permastealth(still had some burst damage TRs), and HR didn't even exist.
In fact, as stated by devs, tenacity was a big hit on all classes, but CWs were only hit hardest because they did just that CC and burst damage! the other classes basically had just burst damage! Do you see why people went with tankier builds? The pvp went from 1 shot fests, to players tanking other players, and CW were the main class hurt in that aspect...
Pre-mod3 and tenacity, I had no problem as a CW. Even when HR came out, it was 50/50(on my HR, kill/killed by CWs. on my CW, kill/killed by HRs). It was all fair until tenacity.
Youre judging a class on how it performs in UNBALANCED, MISQUEUED PUGS VERSUS PREMADE PVP? Against similarly geared opponents, whos more OP? the GWF who CAN tank 5v1, or the HR whos a better 1v1 class? The TR made to contest nodes, or the TR that kills lower geared squishies that don't know when theyre outgunned?
So, saying a statement like "no no no GWF is just fine currently....." just further perpetuates the imbalance. So now HRs get nerfed to the ground... now the GWFs have no equal on the battlefield again, wheres the balance in that? Nerf everything else, while leaving me alone IS NOT balance.
Many people forget that:
-theres never going to be balance
-people are just going to complain and QQ that x person beat me, so his class needs to be nerfed
-QQ fests by biased people lead to further imbalance
-balance would be best served by bringing everyone in line, NOT QQing until somethings worse than everything else...
P.S. sorry if I sounded so offensive in my post before this. Ive played EVERY CLASS SINCE OPEN BETA in both PvP and PvE. Yet I end up finding more people who whine about something without at least trying it first, or understanding the mechanics of what theyre arguing against. ie, HRs are on the up right now, but too many people QQ instead of look up things(like Forest Meditation), so they don't realize that it has limited uses, and not as strong as they think... Its the combination of what some people are doing that make the class powerful, not the whole class. My highest geared pvp class is my HR, and I don't see myself tanking 5v1 players. My GWF is my 2nd highest, and he can fight with 3 similarly geared players, and put up quite the fight, but I can and will lose to more skilled players than me.
Im only talking about pvp builded classes(CW,TR,HR,GWF), im not even mentioning pvp builded vs pve builded chars, since we all know what happens in these situations....
Since the start of the game, the endgame pvpers used to run tanky builds....
So many myths. I can kill similarly geared HRs (not all the time, which is fair) on my perma and GWF as well. Yes, they kill me on my CW, what's new about this.
So let me dispel the myths and the fear by giving some advice:
- HRs need to be burst down usually in one go. What this means is that you need some specific stuff to overcome their PvP set healing and meditation
- DC artifact helps immensely, because you can basically double daily them in a very short while, especially as a perma with lower DPS. To be honest though, only bad permas have low DPS, good ones know to flurry out of stealth. If you don't, learn it.
- HR has pretty much no CC immunity, besides fox shift (if anybody is close enough), Meditation (if it's up, every 40 seconds) and their shift. So, all it takes is a coordinated CW+GWF couple: Icy Rays, debuff, GWF combo-->HR almost dead or dead.
- as a GWF you need to understand that staying on Thorn Ward will shred you in time. Jump around it, wait for unstoppable, roar/takedown/IBS the HR and hope you will crit and they don't deflect. If you're geared, you can kill HRs quite easily and it's a matter of skill who wins.
- do NOT spam at wills while they are on 100% deflect mode Meditation. They will heal even more because of their set. Wow, now you know why they healed to full, because pugs spammed their stuff on them... Do not touch meditation unless you know you have something up that can kill the HR if they are low, even while deflected. I can only think of an Ice Knife during Eye of the Storm proc, if the HR is really low, or GWF IBS, but you need to get lucky and crit.
- as usual, do not waste 3 people on one HR. If he is really tanky and good, you need someone to stall him - a good DC or perma should do.
- if you have a good DPS couple with a bit of a brain, they should go clear the HR fast. I'd say CW/GWF is ideal at this job.
In the end, HR is still quite OP (but not as OP as these tears-topics made it to be), mostly because people do not understand the class:
Also some classes such as a CW or a GF are quite badly equipped to deal with HRs alone.
But these topics are made by people with bad specs, without BiS gear, when they meet top tier, full rank 10 HRs with the whole arsenal of elixirs on them.
Why are you expecting to kill such players on your rank 7s/PvE specs? Get to their level first, and learn about the other class, practice against them, and then come back.
Your post started with a bold " here is how you beat a HR " and ended with " basically avoid the HR or throw 2 people at him at once " which means ' lose the match while trying to take a HR down '. You didnt bust any "myths" here, you confirmed them, just fyi
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Your post started with a bold " here is how you beat a HR " and ended with " basically avoid the HR or throw 2 people at him at once " which means ' lose the match while trying to take a HR down '. You didnt bust any "myths" here, you confirmed them, just fyi
Pretty much what he's suggesting (stall with DC or perma TR, send CW/GWF or other DPS couples to dispose of him) is the exact same strategy that was used against pre-tenacity sentinel regeneration tanks.
He said HRs are a bit OP, and i'd say the self healing/ tankyness is the main reason, just like it was with old sentinels. That's why their ability to self-heal is getting a nerf.
The way it is now for GWFs, tank builds/ classes are meant to last longer but eventually go down, slowly.
Your post started with a bold " here is how you beat a HR " and ended with " basically avoid the HR or throw 2 people at him at once " which means ' lose the match while trying to take a HR down '. You didnt bust any "myths" here, you confirmed them, just fyi
I can still kill BiS PvP HRs 1vs1, with proper spec, on both GWF and TR. I already said it's not something I can do reliably, but it's not impossible for me to do it at all. I might not be able to kill the very best ones, but you can bet I can kill the wave of new HRs riding high on how forgiving the class is. Also why should I be able to kill the very best HRs? I'm not among the very best GWFs or TRs myself.
And I did dispel myths such as "he heals to full" (no it doesn't unless your team is dumb), or "omg he tanked 3-4 people on the node" (no he didn't unless they were all badly specced&geared pugs and he's a fully rank 10 good HR). TRs or GWFs can do the same.
But most importantly, I said the HR is quite OP now. HR NEEDS to be OP right now, to be able to counter the dumb GWF and TR PvP specs we have nowadays. Yet in less than a month, the QQ topics will have managed to make it (possibly) yet another broken, bad for PvP class.
I can tell you exactly what is going on with HRs in PVP and it started before Mod3. They were the new thing and had that whole FOTM thing going for them. Of course most of them were alts and 1/2 the server pop were HRs for a while then. Most of them alts and most of them pretty bad. The outcome of this was enough Splitshot spamming, mob scattering, poorly designed HRs that nobody would accept them in a party. So most HRs re-specced for a pure PVP build. Which is not broken in the way that the GWF was because a IV GWF can still PVE and was welcomed in most groups. A PVP HR is built completely ignoring PVE it's more like a perma PVP TR. And the factor that wins matches, the guy behind the keyboard, does nothing but PVP on that toon. So much like a perma if you have not built one and played it and figured out how to counter it it is going to beat you with relative ease.
Don't know...got in a match yesterday. Have to say, the HR was from page 1 of the ranking and most likely BiS gear and full tank build+ rank 10 radiants...
Now, i usually take down with my GWF most players easily, and usually can hold my own even against BiS players from other classes and, even if they outgear me, at least take down their health quite a bit.
Well, we got against this HR 2v1-3v1 and we could at best take down his hp to 30%, yet he would consistently self heal more than a Module 1 sentinel. It didn't even work to do not hit him while he was during forest meditation. And he still got enough damage to take us down.
Don't know how things are in end game right now, may be full tank sentinels can last a lot and tank, but if these are BiS HRs, i think that right now it's just the same as it was with old sentinels in module 1. Which means, send another HR or a ultra tanky DC/ GWF/ Perma TR to stall him.
What crossed my mind while fighting him was "it's stronger than the old sentinels".
Page 1 of rankings is also full of HRs, so i think they are the strongest PvP class right now...
...which is why I've been asking for a regen/heal debuff power.
Regen/heal debuff is one of the most crucial types of debuff powers in these games... and there isn't any. I would figure DCs would be prime candidates to receive such crucial debuff powers.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited July 2014
Some posts have been moved to the Depths. Folks, please stay civil and respectful, even when arguing and disagreeing. Thanks!
Safe travels,
Archmage Zebular of Mystryl PWE Community Moderator
Comments
So you've followed none of the changes since then.
Youre totally missing the keyword here... NOT EVERY TR/HR/GWF rolls the same stats! Youre going to judge based on what you as a CW can do? Not every GWF is iv, not every TR went permastealth, not every HR went pathfinder with pvp set.
Actually, when HRs first came out, the ONLY and I mean ONLY HRs I had problems with were ones that used Constricting Arrow. before tenacity, and pre-mod3, the CW had no equal on the battlefield. GWF was only just picking up their stride, TR was being nerfed into permastealth(still had some burst damage TRs), and HR didn't even exist.
In fact, as stated by devs, tenacity was a big hit on all classes, but CWs were only hit hardest because they did just that CC and burst damage! the other classes basically had just burst damage! Do you see why people went with tankier builds? The pvp went from 1 shot fests, to players tanking other players, and CW were the main class hurt in that aspect...
Pre-mod3 and tenacity, I had no problem as a CW. Even when HR came out, it was 50/50(on my HR, kill/killed by CWs. on my CW, kill/killed by HRs). It was all fair until tenacity.
Youre judging a class on how it performs in UNBALANCED, MISQUEUED PUGS VERSUS PREMADE PVP? Against similarly geared opponents, whos more OP? the GWF who CAN tank 5v1, or the HR whos a better 1v1 class? The TR made to contest nodes, or the TR that kills lower geared squishies that don't know when theyre outgunned?
So, saying a statement like "no no no GWF is just fine currently....." just further perpetuates the imbalance. So now HRs get nerfed to the ground... now the GWFs have no equal on the battlefield again, wheres the balance in that? Nerf everything else, while leaving me alone IS NOT balance.
Many people forget that:
-theres never going to be balance
-people are just going to complain and QQ that x person beat me, so his class needs to be nerfed
-QQ fests by biased people lead to further imbalance
-balance would be best served by bringing everyone in line, NOT QQing until somethings worse than everything else...
P.S. sorry if I sounded so offensive in my post before this. Ive played EVERY CLASS SINCE OPEN BETA in both PvP and PvE. Yet I end up finding more people who whine about something without at least trying it first, or understanding the mechanics of what theyre arguing against. ie, HRs are on the up right now, but too many people QQ instead of look up things(like Forest Meditation), so they don't realize that it has limited uses, and not as strong as they think... Its the combination of what some people are doing that make the class powerful, not the whole class. My highest geared pvp class is my HR, and I don't see myself tanking 5v1 players. My GWF is my 2nd highest, and he can fight with 3 similarly geared players, and put up quite the fight, but I can and will lose to more skilled players than me.
Youre also watching a biased, non-variable setup too. GF obviously doing jack for damage(especially Swordmaster... thank god its getting boosted in mod4!), WITHOUT stuns/knockbacks/prones, only attack an HR with at wills. That's not a GWF/HR/CW... that's a "I can tank hits, but hit like a pillow" class right now. low dps/low hits versus the heal effect=hes able to heal more than you can dish out. And that is being changed...
Go Conqueror, build big power/armor pen, use knockbacks/stuns/prones to move him out of split the sky/thornward range(your other vid showed that GFs can be mobile, and fight while doing so), actually use your encounters/dailies. Using a lopsidedly made video for an example isn't right.
Im only talking about pvp builded classes(CW,TR,HR,GWF), im not even mentioning pvp builded vs pve builded chars, since we all know what happens in these situations....
Since the start of the game, the endgame pvpers used to run tanky builds....
Your post started with a bold " here is how you beat a HR " and ended with " basically avoid the HR or throw 2 people at him at once " which means ' lose the match while trying to take a HR down '. You didnt bust any "myths" here, you confirmed them, just fyi
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Pretty much what he's suggesting (stall with DC or perma TR, send CW/GWF or other DPS couples to dispose of him) is the exact same strategy that was used against pre-tenacity sentinel regeneration tanks.
He said HRs are a bit OP, and i'd say the self healing/ tankyness is the main reason, just like it was with old sentinels. That's why their ability to self-heal is getting a nerf.
The way it is now for GWFs, tank builds/ classes are meant to last longer but eventually go down, slowly.
I can still kill BiS PvP HRs 1vs1, with proper spec, on both GWF and TR. I already said it's not something I can do reliably, but it's not impossible for me to do it at all. I might not be able to kill the very best ones, but you can bet I can kill the wave of new HRs riding high on how forgiving the class is. Also why should I be able to kill the very best HRs? I'm not among the very best GWFs or TRs myself.
And I did dispel myths such as "he heals to full" (no it doesn't unless your team is dumb), or "omg he tanked 3-4 people on the node" (no he didn't unless they were all badly specced&geared pugs and he's a fully rank 10 good HR). TRs or GWFs can do the same.
But most importantly, I said the HR is quite OP now. HR NEEDS to be OP right now, to be able to counter the dumb GWF and TR PvP specs we have nowadays. Yet in less than a month, the QQ topics will have managed to make it (possibly) yet another broken, bad for PvP class.
...which is why I've been asking for a regen/heal debuff power.
Regen/heal debuff is one of the most crucial types of debuff powers in these games... and there isn't any. I would figure DCs would be prime candidates to receive such crucial debuff powers.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Safe travels,
Archmage Zebular of Mystryl
PWE Community Moderator
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