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Cut the CC out of pvp. This is getting stupid.

ysil6969ysil6969 Member Posts: 42 Arc User
edited July 2014 in PvE Discussion
There is WAY to much cc in pvp. A fight pretty much amounts to two classes stunlocking you and focusing you down. Or you and another teammate stunlocks someone and focuses them down. It's stupid. There's no gameplay there, it's all just cc and pound. Imo this makes pvp really really boring.
Post edited by ysil6969 on
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Comments

  • vasdamasvasdamas Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    CC isn't the problem. Prone is.

    It's gonna change in m4 though.
  • ahsherahsher Member Posts: 208 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    CC is not as important as CC IMMUNITY
    What you will find is the top 3 classes in PVP have both CC immunity and CC
    GWF
    TR
    HR
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    magenubbie wrote: »
    The only thing these 3 have in common is that they can work independently and require no assistance, which makes them the classes to play for the average, selfish PvPer. They don't want a challenge, they want to win. So it's obvious they go for the classes that can assure them that win. Let's not discuss that attitude for now.
    Why would you play something competitive other than to win? You don't play to lose.
    magenubbie wrote: »
    1: they still think the name of the game is "whos the better killer?" instead of domination. And it works. Dead people cannot control nodes. I hardly believe Cryptic meant the game to be played like that, but it's what players make of it.
    What else do you do with people attacking your node, you kill them. Really not getting what you're trying to say at all. At face value it makes absolutely no sense.
    magenubbie wrote: »
    2: they never heard or proper teamwork with classes that don't do damage or hold nodes. More or less like they play in PvE.
    3: they like to use the most vulgar and most humiliating of languages to intimidate and persuade people not to PvP. This is helpful in the way that it creates reasons to complain about the lack of PvP available in the game.
    While vulgar language is uncalled for and something that should be avoided. You are indulging in the same kind of anger and hate with a well spoken rant right here in this post with your rant against players.
  • plaviaplavia Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    CC is the major problem in PVP
    I play with DC.
    if GWF and CW attack me... I better go make a coffee. if they have very low GS, I might bake some muffins as well
    GWF, CW, GF all have way too much CC. and with a very simple nooob rotation they will take half of your HP while you wont be able to move
    I am not a big fan of perma TR or bugged HR, but fighting them is less frustrating then die without retaliate
  • kingcalouskingcalous Member Posts: 55
    edited July 2014
    CC is a very important aspect of PvP combat in games such as these. There are not very many competitive MMOs or MOBA's that donot have CC in its many forms.

    If there was no CC you could not interrupt, root, slow, stun, or prone. Without that option PvP becomes two people standing infront of eachother holding autoattack and pushing damage encounters. CC breaks, and dodges would be piontless, taking away yet another aspect of skilled play.

    CC allows for skill to come into play in many different ways. When do you interrupt? What abilities should you avoid this way? It allows an avenue for squishies to team up on tankies and take them out in a reasonable amount of time, which would not be possible without CC. It allows ranged classes to Kite melee, and gives melee classes a chance to catch ranged.

    Without CC PvP would be skillless and empty. It is a necessary component, doing away with it would destroy competitive PvP almost completely.

    You may not have been around pre-tenacity, but if you were, you would know that PvP has gone downhill since. The main reason for this is they buffed durability, while at the same time nerfing CC. You will be hard pressed to find someone who PvPd heavily pre tenacity that disagrees with this.

    CC should be limited for sure, nothing is more frustrating then being locked down in PvP for an extended period of time, but if its 2v1 and you are getting chain stunned.... thats fair... its 2v1, you should not win. However if you save your dodges/stun breaks and use them wisely you CAN come out on top. Thats where CC is beautiful, if a class needs their CC, then you always have the ability to take that away through skillfull play allowing you to win in a situation when you technically should not. This would not happen as often or be nearly as satisfying without CC.

    People complained, they nerfed CC, PvP suffered. They are nerfing CC even more come mod4, the game will suffer more. You have to step outside of your personal experience sometimes and look at the bigger picture for the greater good.

    Nerfing CC hurts everybody and does not generally help those that asked for it, they still get the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> kicked out of them because CC wasn't the problem, their play, or their teams play was.
  • g4nj4m4n0g4nj4m4n0 Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    HR has CC immunity? Really!
    I must have missed it last 6 months playing HR!
    Dont give out false information just to say something!
  • williep30williep30 Member Posts: 773 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    ahsher wrote: »
    CC is not as important as CC IMMUNITY
    What you will find is the top 3 classes in PVP have both CC immunity and CC
    GWF
    TR
    HR

    I got to ask this... umm... since when does HR have CC immunity? They have a daily that if you put points in it makes you CC immune, BUT YOU ALSO CANT DO ANYTHING WHILE ITS UP!

    If youre judging classes by CC immunity and CC, does:

    GF have both CC and CC immunity(prones/villain's menace/block)?

    CW have both CC and CC immunity(do I even have to explain CWs CC powers?, and they have Maelstrom of Chaos, not to mention the best cc immune timeframe dodge)?

    No, the real reason the top 3 pvp classes ARE the top 3 is one shared investment: survivability. They share the ability to have some form of tanky build, and yes, 2 of them have CC immunities. But of those 3, only 1 of them has significant CC immunity(GWF). The HR/TR turns to survivability in the form of stealth(TR), and deflection healing based build(HR with pvp set).

    -GWFs have Unstoppable with more than enough prone/stunlock combos
    -TRs stealth, tankiness(by means of ITC, permastealth)
    -HRs have tanky builds, and can still output damage like GWF(Not to mention one of the most mobile gameplay styles currently in the game)

    By all means, call out the 3 top pvp classes, idc. But at least call them out for the right reasons...
    I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
  • aulduronaulduron Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,351 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    CW have both CC and CC immunity(do I even have to explain CWs CC powers?, and they have Maelstrom of Chaos, not to mention the best cc immune timeframe dodge)?

    ROFL! MoC is absolutely useless.
  • hmdq#4491 hmdq Member Posts: 508 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    what should be officially extinct this game is PVP since it was not developed for this purpose! is difficult to please Greeks and Trojans! the only thing you can try to "balance" is chars cause confusion about confusion. my opinion.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    williep30 wrote: »
    I got to ask this... umm... since when does HR have CC immunity? They have a daily that if you put points in it makes you CC immune, BUT YOU ALSO CANT DO ANYTHING WHILE ITS UP!

    I've heard more and more people claim that HR have their own version of ITC, I wish I knew where the bad information was coming from.
  • billyhoppertbillyhoppert Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I am playing CW myself. Top CW players use Shard, entangle and Ice rays. (prone / choke / freeze)
    some use repel... meh.

    Anyway. there is so much immunity ingame.. which almost makes CW useless in PVP! just check out leaderboard.

    I wonder what mod4 will do on CW. (nerf moar!!)

    Best 1 v 1 class = HR
    HR > GWF > TR > CW/GF>DC

    No wonder not many ppl play CW................... (topplayers in pvp)
    All reroll HR/GWF.
  • oicidrazoicidraz Member Posts: 627 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    g4nj4m4n0 wrote: »
    HR has CC immunity? Really!
    I must have missed it last 6 months playing HR!
    Dont give out false information just to say something!

    Well, nobody is 100% CC inmunity all the time. but if I'm not wrong, the 6 dodges, Forest Meditation and Fox Shift grant CC inmunity.
  • brun2000brun2000 Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I am playing CW myself. Top CW players use Shard, entangle and Ice rays. (prone / choke / freeze)
    some use repel... meh.

    Anyway. there is so much immunity ingame.. which almost makes CW useless in PVP! just check out leaderboard.

    I wonder what mod4 will do on CW. (nerf moar!!)

    Best 1 v 1 class = HR
    HR > GWF > TR > CW/GF>DC

    No wonder not many ppl play CW................... (topplayers in pvp)
    All reroll HR/GWF.

    Ohh look, someone mad with CW's nerfs... Sorry m8 but giving out 100k of damage on AOE is not healthy either... Besides, a good CW can win the game for the team. If you are trying to CC everyone while they are using their immunities... Sorry m8, but you s*ck.
    "No wonder not many ppl play CW" - You made me LOL... I see more CW than HR, TR, GF and DC's!
    Again, sorry m8, but the nerf was needed.

    Have a nice day :)
  • aulduronaulduron Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,351 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    brun2000 wrote: »
    Again, sorry m8, but the nerf was needed.

    Needed for what?
  • brun2000brun2000 Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    aulduron wrote: »
    Needed for what?

    Dungeon balance! Go see the "LFG" chat, all spammed with wanted CWs and NONE TRs, GFs or even HRs!
    Current PVE balance:
    CW: Absolutely needed
    GWF: Needed for tanking
    GF: Not needed
    TR: Not needed
    DC: Wanted but not needed (cuz GWF can take all the damage they want and be K)
    HR: Not needed

    Want me to continue m8? This is not balance at all, dungeons are the main resource of good equipment and most classes have trouble getting in groups to do so.
  • plaviaplavia Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    every post on PVP end up to be which class is better...
    this post written by a player that probably didn't manage to play PVP because some classes have way too much CC
    I am in the same problem...
    some ppl say you need to keep your dodge and learn how to play, well if you think you are that smart plz start a DC bring it to level 60 and try PVP. (try being a luskan if you think you can master the art of dodging)

    there are many things that can improve PVP, class balance, reward at icewind, maybe even bring the option of PVP to the foundry for new maps + adds

    but again, for this thread, I totally agree. please reduce CC so it will be possible to play
  • aulduronaulduron Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,351 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    brun2000 wrote: »
    Dungeon balance! Go see the "LFG" chat, all spammed with wanted CWs and NONE TRs, GFs or even HRs!
    Current PVE balance:
    CW: Absolutely needed
    GWF: Needed for tanking
    GF: Not needed
    TR: Not needed
    DC: Wanted but not needed (cuz GWF can take all the damage they want and be K)
    HR: Not needed

    Want me to continue m8? This is not balance at all, dungeons are the main resource of good equipment and most classes have trouble getting in groups to do so.

    There's you problem: stop reading LFG. These are just people looking for the fastest, easiest farming groups.

    The only way to balance classes is to make them exactly the same.

    I've run plenty of dungeons without a CW and I've run them without a GWF. All dungeons need is AoE DPS. Nerfing AoE DPS is no way to make single target DPSers, DCs or GFs needed more. All it will do is require more AoE DPSers in groups.

    Granted, I've never beat CN without a CW, but neither have I beat it without a DC.

    FH and SP are hard to do without a GF, unless everyone outgears the dungeon.

    My DC and TR have no problems finding groups, though I DDs with my TR are not fun.
  • brun2000brun2000 Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    aulduron wrote: »
    There's you problem: stop reading LFG. These are just people looking for the fastest, easiest farming groups.

    The only way to balance classes is to make them exactly the same.

    I've run plenty of dungeons without a CW and I've run them without a GWF. All dungeons need is AoE DPS. Nerfing AoE DPS is no way to make single target DPSers, DCs or GFs needed more. All it will do is require more AoE DPSers in groups.

    Granted, I've never beat CN without a CW, but neither have I beat it without a DC.

    FH and SP are hard to do without a GF, unless everyone outgears the dungeon.

    My DC and TR have no problems finding groups, though I DDs with my TR are not fun.

    You prove my point anyways, means that these classes are unbalanced for PVE, thats why they are FASTER, because they could just be stacked and they would make the dungeon alone themselves.

    FH and SP WERE hard to do without a GF but cryptic had to nerf the ammount of adds because there was too much lag going on. Now its just easy...
    I have a TR to wich is decently geared and the only way I can get into a DD dungeon is either: Player VT/MC (They are wanted there); only 10mins left to the end of DD and groups can't find anyone else at the time; Premade a party. Ofcourse there are certain exceptions but, its the general idea.

    Your DC having no problems finding groups is because every group wants one, they just go without one because they know that there are not enough DC's for every party, but if you ask them, its like insta-invite.

    I've had people saying "sorry, TR's suck for dungeons, I need a decent DPS class", and I went like... "What the hell m8, how'd you feel if I said that to your class?" *No answer*

    How the balance in this game should be:

    CW: Medium Damage, High Control, Low Mobility, Low Res = 7/8
    TR: High Damage, Low Control, Medium Mobility, Low Res = 7/6
    GWF: Medium Damage, Low Control, Medium Mobility, Medium Res = 7/9
    GF: Low Damage, Medium Control, Low Mobility, High Res = 7/6
    DC: Low Damage, Medium Control, Low Mobility, Medium Res + Heals = 7/7
    HR: Medium Damage, Low Control, High Mobility, Low Res = 7/7

    Low = 1
    Medium = 2
    High = 3
    Heals = 1

    All stats added toguether should be 7
    *What is wrong right now should be as blue*
  • williep30williep30 Member Posts: 773 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    charononus wrote: »
    I've heard more and more people claim that HR have their own version of ITC, I wish I knew where the bad information was coming from.

    Thing is, other than forest meditation daily, THEY HAVE NOTHING!

    No cc immunity. I don't even consider forest meditation daily cc immunity, BECAUSE YOU CANT ATTACK OR DO ANYTHING WHILE YOURE USING IT!!!
    I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
  • williep30williep30 Member Posts: 773 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    aulduron wrote: »
    ROFL! MoC is absolutely useless.

    I know that. Just proving a point with that guy's post. Hes judging pvp based on CC AND CC immunity...
    I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    williep30 wrote: »
    Thing is, other than forest meditation daily, THEY HAVE NOTHING!

    No cc immunity. I don't even consider forest meditation daily cc immunity, BECAUSE YOU CANT ATTACK OR DO ANYTHING WHILE YOURE USING IT!!!
    Exactly, I can't stand the bad information about HR's with it.
  • williep30williep30 Member Posts: 773 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    brun2000 wrote: »
    You prove my point anyways, means that these classes are unbalanced for PVE, thats why they are FASTER, because they could just be stacked and they would make the dungeon alone themselves.

    FH and SP WERE hard to do without a GF but cryptic had to nerf the ammount of adds because there was too much lag going on. Now its just easy...
    I have a TR to wich is decently geared and the only way I can get into a DD dungeon is either: Player VT/MC (They are wanted there); only 10mins left to the end of DD and groups can't find anyone else at the time; Premade a party. Ofcourse there are certain exceptions but, its the general idea.

    Your DC having no problems finding groups is because every group wants one, they just go without one because they know that there are not enough DC's for every party, but if you ask them, its like insta-invite.

    I've had people saying "sorry, TR's suck for dungeons, I need a decent DPS class", and I went like... "What the hell m8, how'd you feel if I said that to your class?" *No answer*

    How the balance in this game should be:

    CW: Medium Damage, High Control, Low Mobility, Low Res = 7/8
    TR: High Damage, Low Control, Medium Mobility, Low Res = 7/6
    GWF: Medium Damage, Low Control, Medium Mobility, Medium Res = 7/9
    GF: Low Damage, Medium Control, Low Mobility, High Res = 7/6
    DC: Low Damage, Medium Control, Low Mobility, Medium Res + Heals = 7/7
    HR: Medium Damage, Low Control, High Mobility, Low Res = 7/7

    Low = 1
    Medium = 2
    High = 3
    Heals = 1

    All stats added toguether should be 7
    *What is wrong right now should be as blue*

    Ah, yet another mad TR who wants TR and no other class to be top dog... sigh. Maybe newer TRs don't realize this, but there was a reason they've been NERFED SINCE BETA.

    TR used to have:

    high dps output
    -single target dps by FAR outshined GWF(part of the reason GWFs were garbage in beta)
    -stealth made you able to not need a DC as much as other classes(permastealth, and you could solo dungeons(still can)!)
    -aoe dps wasn't horrible(path of blades wasn't as weakened either)
    -the original "1 shot" class!

    Not justifying how FAR the nerfs to TRs have been, just realizing WHY they were put in the first place...
    I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
  • williep30williep30 Member Posts: 773 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    charononus wrote: »
    Exactly, I can't stand the bad information about HR's with it.

    Actually, Fox's Shift offers a BRIEF cc immunity phase, forgot about that. But its not nearly as long as ITC. Not to mention horrid damage now, due to the whining of TRs/CWs/GWFs of "OMG SOMETHING CAN DO AS MUCH DAMAGE AS ME, RAWR NERF TO GROUND!!!"
    I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    ahsher wrote: »
    CC is not as important as CC IMMUNITY
    What you will find is the top 3 classes in PVP have both CC immunity and CC
    GWF
    TR
    HR

    spot on .
    +1

    GWF/TR/HR have both CC abilities aswell some sort of CC immunity.

    As for the HR that some metioned that has not CC abilities.Going into stealth and dodging to be revealled 60 feet from you.To me that is some CC immunity in a wide meaning of the word.You cannot CC something you cannot see or touch.

    TR the same.Hell even his att wills(DF) gives him stun immunity.Not to mention stealth ,ITc.

    GWF.What to say.The master of both CC and immunity.Endless prones,stuns,and every 10 secs going into god mode gaining 50% more dr,adding to the existing 40% DR and his 30% Deflect(14% of one of his feat lmao)
  • aulduronaulduron Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,351 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    brun2000 wrote: »
    You prove my point anyways, means that these classes are unbalanced for PVE, thats why they are FASTER, because they could just be stacked and they would make the dungeon alone themselves.

    Again: the only way to make each class equally balanced, is to take 5 of them out of the game. Otherwise balance is just a fairy tale. There will always be more and less useful classes. TRs should never have been nerfed, and neither should CWs and GWFs.
    FH and SP WERE hard to do without a GF but cryptic had to nerf the ammount of adds because there was too much lag going on. Now its just easy...

    Meh, i haven't noticed any fewer adds.
    I have a TR to wich is decently geared and the only way I can get into a DD dungeon is either: Player VT/MC (They are wanted there); only 10mins left to the end of DD and groups can't find anyone else at the time; Premade a party. Ofcourse there are certain exceptions but, its the general idea.

    Join a guild or the legit channel. Or start your own. My TR has never been turned down for a group. You're obviously trying to group with idiots.

    How the balance in this game should be:

    CW: Medium Damage, High Control, Low Mobility, Low Res = 7/8
    TR: High Damage, Low Control, Medium Mobility, Low Res = 7/6
    GWF: Medium Damage, Low Control, Medium Mobility, Medium Res = 7/9
    GF: Low Damage, Medium Control, Low Mobility, High Res = 7/6
    DC: Low Damage, Medium Control, Low Mobility, Medium Res + Heals = 7/7
    HR: Medium Damage, Low Control, High Mobility, Low Res = 7/7

    Low = 1
    Medium = 2
    High = 3
    Heals = 1

    All stats added toguether should be 7
    *What is wrong right now should be as blue*

    That's pretty arbitrary.

    Only a TR should be high damage?? Lol, it's not hard to see which class you play.

    Going by D&D, both wizards and clerics should be high damage, high control. (FYI damage=control). In the Forgotten Realms, wizards can wipe out armies.
  • williep30williep30 Member Posts: 773 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    magenubbie wrote: »
    As it was supposed to. GWFs are AoE dps. Meaning lower damage per target, but higher overall damage.
    My TR doesn't need higher dps per se, but that is how the 2 should be balanced.
    Right now I've seen 12k at-wills on GWFs. That's the other side of the coin, and just as unwanted in my opinion.

    Don't argue with that at all. Should have some bit of balance in between. I don't need to have my GWF pushing 12k at will(talking about threatening rush, right?), and TRs should have better. Just that it was the opposite side of the coin pre mod 2. GWF was garbage(look at him now), TR was awesome(look at him now).
    I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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