This thread and discussions about leadership are as pointless as discussing politics as people have their minds set before the conversation starts.
They'll likely have an agenda that suits their personal gain as well. Everyone is serving their own selfish wants. Me, I don't want to get rid of leadership as an AD source because it's my only reliable source outside of invoking. I don't believe my 'small scale operation' is going to have any noticable impact of the game economy.
Here is the thing everyone who says that leaderships is not broken, i agree with you, yes i have invested the time my leadership is 19 atm and yes i have green and blue mercenaries. Oh and thinking that investing a month into a game clicking a few times is a big investment must not play very many games at all. I mean most phone games expect you to do more and play a lot longer before it pays off. And I don't want a leadership nerf but to change the way you get your AD from it, because the developers probably never envisioned people using it to this extent. Basically it has to be changed so that the casual gamer can still reap the benefit but the people who only run leadership hundreds of times a day are unable to take advantage of the devs short sightedness. As for the AD sinks, i think its a great idea for some better ones, but you have to ask yourselves who will be using said sinks? I guarantee it will not be the people who only farm AD, on the contrary the people who can't afford them are the ones who will want them the most, I want the dancing blade but can i afford to spend 750k ad on it hell no, but at least it gets some AD out of the game.
Here is the thing everyone who says that leaderships is not broken, i agree with you, yes i have invested the time my leadership is 19 atm and yes i have green and blue mercenaries. Oh and thinking that investing a month into a game clicking a few times is a big investment must not play very many games at all. I mean most phone games expect you to do more and play a lot longer before it pays off. And I don't want a leadership nerf but to change the way you get your AD from it, because the developers probably never envisioned people using it to this extent. Basically it has to be changed so that the casual gamer can still reap the benefit but the people who only run leadership hundreds of times a day are unable to take advantage of the devs short sightedness. As for the AD sinks, i think its a great idea for some better ones, but you have to ask yourselves who will be using said sinks? I guarantee it will not be the people who only farm AD, on the contrary the people who can't afford them are the ones who will want them the most, I want the dancing blade but can i afford to spend 750k ad on it hell no, but at least it gets some AD out of the game.
Again - stats please? most of this is just conjecture that it is leadership as the cause for the economic woes. Fine you hit hit 19 in a month, you must have a bunch of colored assets and crank on this every chance you can - min maxing the time and experience gains by running protect the mines (a 4 hour task) many times a day. Again li have leveled 8 toons to 20th leadership and i am not dedicating all 9 slots to leadership either because i normally will take one of the other professions to 20 to open the slot for having a profession to 20 first. enven once i have all 9 slots open, it still takes a few months of doing leadership every day hit 20. you can get the first 15 levels in a short time, but the last ones take a long long time.
regardless, you still can only get 24k a day tops (which means i can almost buy a blue potency for refinement), and given i can run one DD get a n HV set piece and sell it for 600K or more, you are really focusing on the wrong aspect of what is broken. not to say it is broken.
Besides you are making a judgement call on what is playing the game. Doing leadership and invoking are playing the game. Using gateway is playing the game. it takes me well over a half hour to take my toons through leadership tasks on the gateway (on my phone) so i do not do it. the idea of doing leadership hundreds of times a day is just demonstrating an opinion that has no basis in reality.
so let me know when you hit 20 on leadership. If you just hit 19 it will be a month or 2 from now. i have toons at the 160 day mark that have not hit 20th in leadership.
I'm going to weigh in on this, there is NOTHING wrong with leadership. You can only perform 3 of the same task at a time, and most of the time frames are rather lengthy unless you have some high end assets which not everyone does (although i'm sure a lot do). Leadership is only really problematic if you take into consideration bots and people that have 15+ characters or accounts. I have 5 and only one near level 20 leadership and it will be quite sometime before the rest have it. It is more ideal to level up your weapon crafting skill for your class first then maybe another skill like leadership.
It takes a lot of time and effort to level leadership, a lot of dedication and the reward is that you can get a few thousand AD/day from it if you are diligent (more if you have lots of characters). People that spend time leveling multiple characters and working them all up and working up their skills should be rewarded for their effort.
Need I also remind you all that refining AD is capped at 24k/day and anyone can reach that cap with or without leadership. Its all you people that transfer wealth to others cause you can't seem to figure out that you can buy some things from places other than the AH which transfers refined AD directly into their wallets. If you want to impact the AD market STOP buying stuff from the auction house, go run dungeons and earn your own gear and for the love of god buy you marks of potency and the like from the vendor instead of the AH. Like all those greater marks of potency that sell for 105 - 110k in the AH and straight up 100k from the vendor.
If you are a diligent player you can easily earn more rough AD than you can refine, and odds are you can find things to spend them on faster than you can refine them.
I cant say it better than this.
If you actually learn how to play effectively, you will quickly hit the daily refine cap of 24k ad oer day. All leadership tasks produce *rough* ad. When you salvage a bound item from an epic chest you get *rough* ad. When you participate in special events like the gift of tymora or waukeen coin events, the rewards are returned to you in *rough* ad. Rhix's daily quests, again *rough* ad; same with Lord Never's Daily quests.
ALL sources of rough AD hit the same refine limit. You can EASILY hit the limit without leadership tasks. Nerfing one way to get rough AD is not going to change the economy, it will only annoy the people using that way as their preferred way.
Yes, people can get around the 24k refine cap by having multiple characters. But as a person that plays multiple characters, let me tell you, having more than one drains more ad away than 24k ad/day it creates. Buying wards/enchants/marks is very expensive. So are the costs of obtaining pets. (Though I actually avoid t2 gear costs, because I obtain that by playing the games and delving through dungeons.)
Even the high end "Destroy Enemy Camp" leadership task with its 1600 *rough* AD payout is not able to get you to the refine limit. You can only have 3 of one task running at once... and Destroy Enemy camp takes 12 hours. This means you make 9600 *rough* ad per day from this task. (3 tasks at a time * 2 per day * 1600) Nerfing this will not fix the economy.
Assuming you are willing to buy a 400k ad hero.. this worker reduces the time to 8 hours allowing you to run one extra time a day for a total of 14,400 ad per day. It will take 250 days just to get back the initial investment. (you will make 4800 extra ad from 3 heros which cost 1.2m. 1.2m/4800ad = 250 days.)
LEADERSHIP is NOT the problem with the Economy.
As said here before... There needs to be AD sinks to encourage people to spend AD not hoard AD. These sinks need to be reasonably priced in order to be effective. No one is going to spend 3million AD to upgrade a blue mount to purple on a single toon, when for less money they can buy a purple mount for less and have it unlocked on all characters. Same thing for companions, 1.2m ad to make a green companion purple is a larger investment then just buying a purple companion in the first place. We need properly priced items that can only be bought with AD in order to make ad worthwhile and fix the economy.
And just a note, the AH is not a true AD sink... It only passes the ad from one person to another. (The 10% house cut is a sink, but not effective, and if it grows, fewer people will use the AH.)
If you actually learn how to play effectively, you will quickly hit the daily refine cap of 24k ad oer day. All leadership tasks produce *rough* ad. When you salvage a bound item from an epic chest you get *rough* ad. When you participate in special events like the gift of tymora or waukeen coin events, the rewards are returned to you in *rough* ad. Rhix's daily quests, again *rough* ad; same with Lord Never's Daily quests.
ALL sources of rough AD hit the same refine limit. You can EASILY hit the limit without leadership tasks. Nerfing one way to get rough AD is not going to change the economy, it will only annoy the people using that way as their preferred way.
Yes, people can get around the 24k refine cap by having multiple characters. But as a person that plays multiple characters, let me tell you, having more than one drains more ad away than 24k ad/day it creates. Buying wards/enchants/marks is very expensive. So are the costs of obtaining pets. (Though I actually avoid t2 gear costs, because I obtain that by playing the games and delving through dungeons.))
I'm not arguing with you about how many ways to accumulate the AD, the only difference between all the above mentioned ways of making AD vs leadership is that they take time and you actually have to be playing the game, unlike leadership. Where you don't have to gear your char out, enter the game, or do anything besides click start task and refine, all of which can be done through the gateway. I have more then 1 char geared so know exactly what ur talking about thus why i have no AD, but alas you miss the point, maybe you can't comprehend the possibility of some bots or people doing nothing but grinding out AD and that's the problem, not the people who actually log in and play the game. Not everything is about you... Oh and i have no data, math, or any other "evidence". All i know that if there is a way to abuse something to get wealthy someone somewhere will do it and if you don't believe that you need to live a few more years on this blue marble. I don't even know why i posted this he won't get it...
Yes, people can get around the 24k refine cap by having multiple characters. But as a person that plays multiple characters, let me tell you, having more than one drains more ad away than 24k ad/day it creates.
You do realize that a lot of people have many many accounts with characters who do not gear up or incur any costs at all don't you? they do nothing at all except pray and run leadership , that is what some people in this thread are talking about , these people are creating tens of thousands of ad each week that is going into the economy , they aren't running dungeons or refining gear or doing anything on their leadership accounts except flooding ad into the game , every single ad they earn on these accounts is gravy .
You do realize that a lot of people have many many accounts with characters who do not gear up or incur any costs at all don't you? they do nothing at all except pray and run leadership , that is what some people in this thread are talking about , these people are creating tens of thousands of ad each week that is going into the economy , they aren't running dungeons or refining gear or doing anything on their leadership accounts except flooding ad into the game , every single ad they earn on these accounts is gravy .
Don't forget praying too. Elixirs are getting more and more expensive nowadays so praybots have something to look forward to
What needs to be done is make all items from the Zen Shop Account Bound.
If you buy from the zen shop it should be to benefit your chars and your account.
Not to circumvent the zen/ad exchange and sell keys and wards for inflated prices.
Nerfing Leadership Wont fix the Exchange.
Nerfing Leadership Wont fix the high prices in the AH.
What needs to be done is make all items from the Zen Shop Account Bound.
If you buy from the zen shop it should be to benefit your chars and your account.
Not to circumvent the zen/ad exchange and sell keys and wards for inflated prices.
Nerfing Leadership Wont fix the Exchange.
Nerfing Leadership Wont fix the high prices in the AH.
Make all items from the Zen Shop Account Bound.
My 2 Cents...
Oh this would be lovely, then I could call the game what is already is, except the definition would match perfectly.
I log in and have the time to either play a campaign or run dungeon, but not both. Without the Leadership AD, I would not be able to buy the crafting tools and people to make any AD that way. So if I just play a campaign, where do I get my AD from if not from my one character's Leadership?
What needs to be done is make all items from the Zen Shop Account Bound.
If you buy from the zen shop it should be to benefit your chars and your account.
Not to circumvent the zen/ad exchange and sell keys and wards for inflated prices.
Nerfing Leadership Wont fix the Exchange.
Nerfing Leadership Wont fix the high prices in the AH.
Make all items from the Zen Shop Account Bound.
My 2 Cents...
Agree. But left option to re-sell Zen stuff for those who bought zen goodies with real cash. I think Cryptic is not interested in giving away zen to anyone for free, all they need to say is "you can have it too if play enough long time". Longer backlog is "incentive" to pay. We may end up with 30-60 days waiting for exchange, but as free2play i don't think we deserve any better. If there was any desire to keep things real, there were no fixed limit on ZAX exchange rate in first place.
Leadership is boring farm. Best thing in doing it are alts with which you can try some diffrent classes/races/builds through progression to 60. What cryptic should do, is to detect and prevent any automation. I think regular players mostly focused on doing leadership once a day and smaller part doing it twice. And they use no scripts. Why legit players should suffer nerf because cryptic allows bots/cheaters to exist?
I log in and have the time to either play a campaign or run dungeon, but not both. Without the Leadership AD, I would not be able to buy the crafting tools and people to make any AD that way. So if I just play a campaign, where do I get my AD from if not from my one character's Leadership?
/agree
(playing the AH would be too time consuming)
I'm not arguing with you about how many ways to accumulate the AD, the only difference between all the above mentioned ways of making AD vs leadership is that they take time and you actually have to be playing the game, unlike leadership.
See, unfortunately this is where it stops being an economic argument and becomes a preferred mode of gameplay argument. Making rough AD through leadership has the same impact as running dailies, or salvaging epics as they all run up against the same rough AD refinement limit. Some might argue that leadership makes less since it takes quite a while to level your profession up to such an extent that you're even close to that limit (while I can hit that limit with dailies relatively regularly upon hitting 60). The crux of this argument is effectively leveling professions and making AD through them is not really playing.
Fortunately, it isn't up to any of us to decide what is really playing this game.
Much as the poster above me, I primarily play through the campaigns for end-game content. I have 3 60, and three others between 30-60. If I'm not actively playing them, they turn into leadership mules while I actively play my other characters. My three 60s have leadership all at 16-17, none of them have hit 20 (although my main has 20 in alchemy for the extra slot). Is my playstyle badwrongfun?
If this nerf were applied to leadership, and I needed AD (like most of us in endgame do), I'd just stop playing the campaigns and run 15min foundries, pvp, etc and have an even greater impact on the AD economy since I won't have the AD drain the campaigns provide. Is that a better alternative?
See, unfortunately this is where it stops being an economic argument and becomes a preferred mode of gameplay argument. Making rough AD through leadership has the same impact as running dailies, or salvaging epics as they all run up against the same rough AD refinement limit. Some might argue that leadership makes less since it takes quite a while to level your profession up to such an extent that you're even close to that limit (while I can hit that limit with dailies relatively regularly upon hitting 60). The crux of this argument is effectively leveling professions and making AD through them is not really playing.
Fortunately, it isn't up to any of us to decide what is really playing this game.
Much as the poster above me, I primarily play through the campaigns for end-game content. I have 3 60, and three others between 30-60. If I'm not actively playing them, they turn into leadership mules while I actively play my other characters. My three 60s have leadership all at 16-17, none of them have hit 20 (although my main has 20 in alchemy for the extra slot). Is my playstyle badwrongfun?
If this nerf were applied to leadership, and I needed AD (like most of us in endgame do), I'd just stop playing the campaigns and run 15min foundries, pvp, etc and have an even greater impact on the AD economy since I won't have the AD drain the campaigns provide. Is that a better alternative?
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
I'm not arguing with you about how many ways to accumulate the AD, the only difference between all the above mentioned ways of making AD vs leadership is that they take time and you actually have to be playing the game, unlike leadership. Where you don't have to gear your char out, enter the game, or do anything besides click start task and refine, all of which can be done through the gateway. I have more then 1 char geared so know exactly what ur talking about thus why i have no AD, but alas you miss the point, maybe you can't comprehend the possibility of some bots or people doing nothing but grinding out AD and that's the problem, not the people who actually log in and play the game. Not everything is about you... Oh and i have no data, math, or any other "evidence". All i know that if there is a way to abuse something to get wealthy someone somewhere will do it and if you don't believe that you need to live a few more years on this blue marble. I don't even know why i posted this he won't get it...
I keep hearing over and over about the boting - the botting is the problem, not the system. your statement of not everything is about you (not sure who you mean because you quote on post but seem to respond to my asking for stats) applies to you as well. this is not all about you either. If you said boting was a problem, i do not think you would find anyone arguing, but you are making a judgement call and saying my way of sustaining my toon army is not playing and wrong. I spent a million ad yesterday on the ah on professions packs trying to get tools and such. you say this is at not cost. the armor needed to be able to run the task you feel is so out of balance costs 1 gold i believe. You need 9 pieces of armor to run full leadership and swords as well... you cannot get the gold without playing. It has taken a long time and millions of ad (and as explained getting purple heros is about 250 days of leadership) to get where i am so it is upsetting that someone is making a judgement call on how i 'keep up with the jones' and saying thier method is better than mine. I am still logging in, I am still playing, I check the ah every day.
I can run my low level toon when a skirm is up for an hour and earn 30K easy. is this really playing? i mean you just go and stand there and pew pew, turn pew pew, turn pew pew... So will this be the next judgement if leadership is 'fixed?' How long till you make a judgement call and say 'Skirms are not really playing, or not playing like I think it should be and must be nerfed to fix the economy'
the economy is broken because of price points and supply and demand.
I'm not an economist, so can't say exactly what would fix some of the issues, but I agree nerfing leadership is not one of them. All I can suggest is trying to slow down the gold farmers and bots. Every time I see a site in zone chat, I report it as spam. Not super effective, I know, since they create accounts super fast. I also report the bots. The leadership bots are easy to spot if you watch zone chat (dunno if they use any others), as repeat "battle undead" or other related search will show up in the chat. They also have the toon set to perform at-will moves, to keep them from timing out. It may seem a waste of time, but I report them as spam. Anything that makes it harder for them.
A few more AD sinks couldn't hurt, just please no nerfing leadership. And please, no killing the ZAX to transfer. That's the only way I have to get items sometimes, and it takes forever even with that.
First off, Cryptic is; well Cryptic. The formula for the economy in most Cryptic games is generally pretty similar. Imho the economy isn't "Broken", it's just more folks playing. Wait until Guild Housing is released, then you'll see your AD sink.
Now, define playing; I enjoy in all MMO's Helping Others > Playing with the economy > gearing myself. I know some folks that play just to have fun with the AD exchange (which isn't viable at the moment, the AH and other parts of the economy. Is that not "playing"? What's wrong with someone who enjoys amassing large amounts of AD through Dungeon Runs, Dailies, Professions etc?
What someone chooses to do with their time is their business. If a person like to hop on vent and click through professions on Gateway for 45 minutes, that's their play style and what they enjoy. To me that's playing the game, and what they enjoy.
I suspect some of the economy woes will be fixed naturally after mod 4. There will be a massive rush to play the new class. That means countless people suddenly spending AD again to gear up. And you can bet the new drops will be horribly overpriced and inflated initially. So there will be new demand for gear, enchants, artifacts, companions, and wards. That should be more then enough to increase the value of AD, and help balance thing out. After all, the mystery egg event proved that just a single, in demand, item was enough to remove the backlog completely in less the 48 hours.
I keep hearing over and over about the boting - the botting is the problem, not the system. your statement of not everything is about you (not sure who you mean because you quote on post but seem to respond to my asking for stats) applies to you as well. this is not all about you either. If you said boting was a problem, i do not think you would find anyone arguing, but you are making a judgement call and saying my way of sustaining my toon army is not playing and wrong.
the economy is broken because of price points and supply and demand.
I think it's because people like to make assumptions even without having a fundamental understanding of what is going on.
Botting and leadership are not the cause of the problem. Most likely they aren't even contributing to the existing issue.
All these Zen/AD issues started after they made more and more items BoP. This includes dungeon drops (like VT and MC), although the Zen echange was ok back then. But once they made the tarmulane wards BoP as well there were fewer and fewer items that people regularly spent AD on. Call it the straw that broke the camels back.
So it's less an issue of "too much AD" as it is an issue of less and less to spend AD on, therby causing the surplus of AD.
I think it's a big mistake on their part to move so heavily into BoP for all new dungeons. Having dungeons that can be farmed, provides folks with an incentive to keep doing those dungeons, as well as a sustainable source of AD as well as a supply of items that people actually want to buy for AD. Then to top it off, instead of being able to buy those items for AD, you have to buy them for Zen, wich then even further magnifies the Zen shortage.
So in summary, bots and leadership were around from the beginning. None of that changed, and we didn't have any of these problems back then. So what has changed? It the increase of more and more BoP taking away more and more things for people to spend AD on - and forcing them to have to convert it to Zen to buy those very same items.
Well, except that all those now-BoP items that you're saying people spent AD on.... those were on the exchange. Which means that the AD "spent" on them was just moving back and forth between players. The only part going out of the game was the AH fee.
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
edited July 2014
No, but they have been RAISED, last year they were 250k and 375k.
grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
edited July 2014
A good start, but Companions have a Barracks and Mounts have to be stored in Pack or Bank and SHOULD have a Stable. Too bad you can't change upgrading to Gold as rune/enchant removal was done.
Mount upgrade II 50 Gold, upgrade III 60 Gold.
Companion upgrade to Green 50 Gold, Blue 60 Gold, Purple 75 Gold.
Professional upgrade level III common to Uncommon 60 Gold.
The issue isn't Leadership, it's that you have (as others have pointed out) removed sinks from the game without adding new ones to take their place. I'd be beyond ticked of if they removed/reduced/nerfed Leadership. It's my only viable way of equipping my alts, upgrading companions, etc...
And no, I don't have dozens of characters (only 7 currently with one slot open for a Warlock) 6 of which have Leadership maxed out.
If they wanted to quickly correct the economy and sell some Zen they could simply reduce the cost of upgrading companions and mounts and introduce some niftly new green companions and mounts.
First off, Cryptic is; well Cryptic. The formula for the economy in most Cryptic games is generally pretty similar. Imho the economy isn't "Broken", it's just more folks playing. Wait until Guild Housing is released, then you'll see your AD sink.
Now, define playing; I enjoy in all MMO's Helping Others > Playing with the economy > gearing myself. I know some folks that play just to have fun with the AD exchange (which isn't viable at the moment, the AH and other parts of the economy. Is that not "playing"? What's wrong with someone who enjoys amassing large amounts of AD through Dungeon Runs, Dailies, Professions etc?
What someone chooses to do with their time is their business. If a person like to hop on vent and click through professions on Gateway for 45 minutes, that's their play style and what they enjoy. To me that's playing the game, and what they enjoy.
That is fine, but you should be able to earn at least as much AD by actually playing the game as you can from professions.
Not to mention the bots that run profession...nobody hopping on to do profession on that...just bots running scripts and flooding the world with AD.
One more thing, playing professions is not playing the game. It is simply clicking tabs. I can't imagine a whole lot of people are playing neverwinter due to the fun they have doing profession tasks.
If the fastest and best way to progress at a game is to not play it, then something is broken.
I should have stressed the AD sink part of my post more. Once guild housing is implemented, there's your AD sink.
My main point remains the same, people play how they play. In all MMO's some people like to do nothing but "craft", in this one leadership is a profession. What's wrong with people enjoying that aspect of the game?
Is leadership the fastest and best way to progress? Anything but. It takes months to build up AD to purchase assets, character slots, etc. There are much faster ways to progress at the game.
Well, except that all those now-BoP items that you're saying people spent AD on.... those were on the exchange. Which means that the AD "spent" on them was just moving back and forth between players. The only part going out of the game was the AH fee.
Those drops, when they were BoE, essentially created an item out of thin air (worth a lot of AD) that players could sell. This item's worth in AD added a significant amount of AD to the economy/exchange. So BoE drops actually put more AD into the game. As you said, the AH fee then magically takes a small amount of that AD back out of the economy/exchange.
Now that those same items are BoP, they aren't adding nearly as much AD to the economy/exchange, since their only value in terms of AD is what you can get from salvage.
BoP items are actually slowing the amount of AD being magically added to the economy/exchange, which is probably the original intention of the developers.
Those drops, when they were BoE, essentially created an item out of thin air (worth a lot of AD) that players could sell. This item's worth in AD added a significant amount of AD to the economy/exchange. So BoE drops actually put more AD into the game. As you said, the AH fee then magically takes a small amount of that AD back out of the economy/exchange.
Now that those same items are BoP, they aren't adding nearly as much AD to the economy/exchange, since their only value in terms of AD is what you can get from salvage.
BoP items are actually slowing the amount of AD being magically added to the economy/exchange, which is probably the original intention of the developers.
Items that are found generate no AD themselves unless salvaged.
You pick up item A and sell to Person B who has to already have the astral diamonds to make the purchase.
You did not generate any AD into the economy, but actually took 10% of whatever the item sold for out of the economy.
So BoE actually sinks AD from the game as weird as that sounds.
Comments
Again - stats please? most of this is just conjecture that it is leadership as the cause for the economic woes. Fine you hit hit 19 in a month, you must have a bunch of colored assets and crank on this every chance you can - min maxing the time and experience gains by running protect the mines (a 4 hour task) many times a day. Again li have leveled 8 toons to 20th leadership and i am not dedicating all 9 slots to leadership either because i normally will take one of the other professions to 20 to open the slot for having a profession to 20 first. enven once i have all 9 slots open, it still takes a few months of doing leadership every day hit 20. you can get the first 15 levels in a short time, but the last ones take a long long time.
regardless, you still can only get 24k a day tops (which means i can almost buy a blue potency for refinement), and given i can run one DD get a n HV set piece and sell it for 600K or more, you are really focusing on the wrong aspect of what is broken. not to say it is broken.
Besides you are making a judgement call on what is playing the game. Doing leadership and invoking are playing the game. Using gateway is playing the game. it takes me well over a half hour to take my toons through leadership tasks on the gateway (on my phone) so i do not do it. the idea of doing leadership hundreds of times a day is just demonstrating an opinion that has no basis in reality.
so let me know when you hit 20 on leadership. If you just hit 19 it will be a month or 2 from now. i have toons at the 160 day mark that have not hit 20th in leadership.
I cant say it better than this.
If you actually learn how to play effectively, you will quickly hit the daily refine cap of 24k ad oer day. All leadership tasks produce *rough* ad. When you salvage a bound item from an epic chest you get *rough* ad. When you participate in special events like the gift of tymora or waukeen coin events, the rewards are returned to you in *rough* ad. Rhix's daily quests, again *rough* ad; same with Lord Never's Daily quests.
ALL sources of rough AD hit the same refine limit. You can EASILY hit the limit without leadership tasks. Nerfing one way to get rough AD is not going to change the economy, it will only annoy the people using that way as their preferred way.
Yes, people can get around the 24k refine cap by having multiple characters. But as a person that plays multiple characters, let me tell you, having more than one drains more ad away than 24k ad/day it creates. Buying wards/enchants/marks is very expensive. So are the costs of obtaining pets. (Though I actually avoid t2 gear costs, because I obtain that by playing the games and delving through dungeons.)
Even the high end "Destroy Enemy Camp" leadership task with its 1600 *rough* AD payout is not able to get you to the refine limit. You can only have 3 of one task running at once... and Destroy Enemy camp takes 12 hours. This means you make 9600 *rough* ad per day from this task. (3 tasks at a time * 2 per day * 1600) Nerfing this will not fix the economy.
Assuming you are willing to buy a 400k ad hero.. this worker reduces the time to 8 hours allowing you to run one extra time a day for a total of 14,400 ad per day. It will take 250 days just to get back the initial investment. (you will make 4800 extra ad from 3 heros which cost 1.2m. 1.2m/4800ad = 250 days.)
LEADERSHIP is NOT the problem with the Economy.
As said here before... There needs to be AD sinks to encourage people to spend AD not hoard AD. These sinks need to be reasonably priced in order to be effective. No one is going to spend 3million AD to upgrade a blue mount to purple on a single toon, when for less money they can buy a purple mount for less and have it unlocked on all characters. Same thing for companions, 1.2m ad to make a green companion purple is a larger investment then just buying a purple companion in the first place. We need properly priced items that can only be bought with AD in order to make ad worthwhile and fix the economy.
And just a note, the AH is not a true AD sink... It only passes the ad from one person to another. (The 10% house cut is a sink, but not effective, and if it grows, fewer people will use the AH.)
Murphster - SS CW | Jennsen Rahl - MoF CW
Taarna - GWF
Eowyn - Protector OP | Leela - Devoted OP
Mara Jade - TR
Leeloo - Tempt SW | Kahlan Amnell - Fury SW | Galadriel - Damnation SW
Sturm Nightblade - GF
You do realize that a lot of people have many many accounts with characters who do not gear up or incur any costs at all don't you? they do nothing at all except pray and run leadership , that is what some people in this thread are talking about , these people are creating tens of thousands of ad each week that is going into the economy , they aren't running dungeons or refining gear or doing anything on their leadership accounts except flooding ad into the game , every single ad they earn on these accounts is gravy .
Don't forget praying too. Elixirs are getting more and more expensive nowadays so praybots have something to look forward to
If you buy from the zen shop it should be to benefit your chars and your account.
Not to circumvent the zen/ad exchange and sell keys and wards for inflated prices.
Nerfing Leadership Wont fix the Exchange.
Nerfing Leadership Wont fix the high prices in the AH.
Make all items from the Zen Shop Account Bound.
My 2 Cents...
Oh this would be lovely, then I could call the game what is already is, except the definition would match perfectly.
Leadership is boring farm. Best thing in doing it are alts with which you can try some diffrent classes/races/builds through progression to 60. What cryptic should do, is to detect and prevent any automation. I think regular players mostly focused on doing leadership once a day and smaller part doing it twice. And they use no scripts. Why legit players should suffer nerf because cryptic allows bots/cheaters to exist?
— (The unwritten rule)
/agree
(playing the AH would be too time consuming)
See, unfortunately this is where it stops being an economic argument and becomes a preferred mode of gameplay argument. Making rough AD through leadership has the same impact as running dailies, or salvaging epics as they all run up against the same rough AD refinement limit. Some might argue that leadership makes less since it takes quite a while to level your profession up to such an extent that you're even close to that limit (while I can hit that limit with dailies relatively regularly upon hitting 60). The crux of this argument is effectively leveling professions and making AD through them is not really playing.
Fortunately, it isn't up to any of us to decide what is really playing this game.
Much as the poster above me, I primarily play through the campaigns for end-game content. I have 3 60, and three others between 30-60. If I'm not actively playing them, they turn into leadership mules while I actively play my other characters. My three 60s have leadership all at 16-17, none of them have hit 20 (although my main has 20 in alchemy for the extra slot). Is my playstyle badwrongfun?
If this nerf were applied to leadership, and I needed AD (like most of us in endgame do), I'd just stop playing the campaigns and run 15min foundries, pvp, etc and have an even greater impact on the AD economy since I won't have the AD drain the campaigns provide. Is that a better alternative?
Thanks for the excellent response!
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
I keep hearing over and over about the boting - the botting is the problem, not the system. your statement of not everything is about you (not sure who you mean because you quote on post but seem to respond to my asking for stats) applies to you as well. this is not all about you either. If you said boting was a problem, i do not think you would find anyone arguing, but you are making a judgement call and saying my way of sustaining my toon army is not playing and wrong. I spent a million ad yesterday on the ah on professions packs trying to get tools and such. you say this is at not cost. the armor needed to be able to run the task you feel is so out of balance costs 1 gold i believe. You need 9 pieces of armor to run full leadership and swords as well... you cannot get the gold without playing. It has taken a long time and millions of ad (and as explained getting purple heros is about 250 days of leadership) to get where i am so it is upsetting that someone is making a judgement call on how i 'keep up with the jones' and saying thier method is better than mine. I am still logging in, I am still playing, I check the ah every day.
I can run my low level toon when a skirm is up for an hour and earn 30K easy. is this really playing? i mean you just go and stand there and pew pew, turn pew pew, turn pew pew... So will this be the next judgement if leadership is 'fixed?' How long till you make a judgement call and say 'Skirms are not really playing, or not playing like I think it should be and must be nerfed to fix the economy'
the economy is broken because of price points and supply and demand.
A few more AD sinks couldn't hurt, just please no nerfing leadership. And please, no killing the ZAX to transfer. That's the only way I have to get items sometimes, and it takes forever even with that.
Now, define playing; I enjoy in all MMO's Helping Others > Playing with the economy > gearing myself. I know some folks that play just to have fun with the AD exchange (which isn't viable at the moment, the AH and other parts of the economy. Is that not "playing"? What's wrong with someone who enjoys amassing large amounts of AD through Dungeon Runs, Dailies, Professions etc?
What someone chooses to do with their time is their business. If a person like to hop on vent and click through professions on Gateway for 45 minutes, that's their play style and what they enjoy. To me that's playing the game, and what they enjoy.
I think it's because people like to make assumptions even without having a fundamental understanding of what is going on.
Botting and leadership are not the cause of the problem. Most likely they aren't even contributing to the existing issue.
All these Zen/AD issues started after they made more and more items BoP. This includes dungeon drops (like VT and MC), although the Zen echange was ok back then. But once they made the tarmulane wards BoP as well there were fewer and fewer items that people regularly spent AD on. Call it the straw that broke the camels back.
So it's less an issue of "too much AD" as it is an issue of less and less to spend AD on, therby causing the surplus of AD.
I think it's a big mistake on their part to move so heavily into BoP for all new dungeons. Having dungeons that can be farmed, provides folks with an incentive to keep doing those dungeons, as well as a sustainable source of AD as well as a supply of items that people actually want to buy for AD. Then to top it off, instead of being able to buy those items for AD, you have to buy them for Zen, wich then even further magnifies the Zen shortage.
So in summary, bots and leadership were around from the beginning. None of that changed, and we didn't have any of these problems back then. So what has changed? It the increase of more and more BoP taking away more and more things for people to spend AD on - and forcing them to have to convert it to Zen to buy those very same items.
When were the mount training manuals that cheap? I've been playing since June last year and they were nowhere near that cheap.
Yeah a thread from last May they were 768,000 and 2,064,000 respectively http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?231311-What-s-the-logic-behind-mount-training-prices
Mount upgrade II 50 Gold, upgrade III 60 Gold.
Companion upgrade to Green 50 Gold, Blue 60 Gold, Purple 75 Gold.
Professional upgrade level III common to Uncommon 60 Gold.
Not to mention the bots that run profession...nobody hopping on to do profession on that...just bots running scripts and flooding the world with AD.
One more thing, playing professions is not playing the game. It is simply clicking tabs. I can't imagine a whole lot of people are playing neverwinter due to the fun they have doing profession tasks.
If the fastest and best way to progress at a game is to not play it, then something is broken.
My main point remains the same, people play how they play. In all MMO's some people like to do nothing but "craft", in this one leadership is a profession. What's wrong with people enjoying that aspect of the game?
Is leadership the fastest and best way to progress? Anything but. It takes months to build up AD to purchase assets, character slots, etc. There are much faster ways to progress at the game.
Now that those same items are BoP, they aren't adding nearly as much AD to the economy/exchange, since their only value in terms of AD is what you can get from salvage.
BoP items are actually slowing the amount of AD being magically added to the economy/exchange, which is probably the original intention of the developers.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
You pick up item A and sell to Person B who has to already have the astral diamonds to make the purchase.
You did not generate any AD into the economy, but actually took 10% of whatever the item sold for out of the economy.
So BoE actually sinks AD from the game as weird as that sounds.