As you all know my main is a GWF and was always at the top of the lists in pvp PRIOR to the changes with Shadowbreakall. What we got was NOT love, it was poor development and stacking broken game design.
I refused to use the GF <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and still stood strong and was still in the tops. Really, the one poster on the first page said it, it took skill to be a gwf - and again now I say it has fallen to the level of trained monkeys can do that build, just like the perma stealth rogue.
Face the music. They refuse to fix basic issues such as targeting, and plans for the future just show they are going to compound new issues onto the old.
I have no respect for the developers of Neverwinter anymore, its obvious they just want the dollars to keep rolling in as long as possible.
Ice wind dale curse will cut sentinels damage by a lot it seems. These changes may very well give the destroyer tree his DPS role and cut sentinels damage enough to make them less powerful in PvP.
Still, i think the whining about GWFs will keep going. Well, if someone could open a thread to complain about takedown, i guess the bullcrap will keep going.
Waiting to test these changes and looking forward to see how they work!
Ice wind dale curse will cut sentinels damage by a lot it seems. These changes may very well give the destroyer tree his DPS role and cut sentinels damage enough to make them less powerful in PvP.
Still, i think the whining about GWFs will keep going. Well, if someone could open a thread to complain about takedown, i guess the bullcrap will keep going.
Waiting to test these changes and looking forward to see how they work!
The whining will continue nonetheless as you've foreseen -- because the frustrations against the GWF class does not stem from damage, but rather the ability to deal damage.
Personally, I don't think they should lower the damage of GWFs anymore. Sure, the damage is strong, even after the survivability of the class has been toned down. But it's not that their damage is powerful itself that's the problem, but rather the ability to totally incapacitate someone with 2~3 consecutive prones which is the no-brainer.
...
Honestly, folks, let me ask you a question.
Did Tenacity change anything for you when you are fighting GWFs and GFs?
Once, people thought Tenacity will significantly help avoid the chane prones.. but meh... in reality, not a chance.
It's still prone.. prone. prone.. prone.. lose +50% HP in the initial 10 seconds of the fight against any fighter class, if you fail to dodge Takedown or FLS, with TD being one of the fastest activating CC powers that registers a hit even though the "hit" part of the animation isn't even activated yet. Literally you need to anticipate and roll before even you see anything to dodge it successfully. When the fighter closes in and even just starts raising his hilt, if you go into a dodge at that timing, you will be hit mid-dodge.
Wasn't the whole point of Tenacity's CC resistance to stop this bullshi*? But no. It doesn't work. It's still chain-prones no matter how high your Tenacity is... the only victim being the poor CWs (although some of them can still do the choke-meatball combo easily, as I've experienced first hand).
Leave the damage alone. Just do something about the guaranteed non-stop attacks and chained combos once any of the prone-spamming connects even once, and that should be fine.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Honestly, folks, let me ask you a question.
Did Tenacity change anything for you when you are fighting GWFs and GFs?
Once, people thought Tenacity will significantly help avoid the chane prones.. but meh... in reality, not a chance.
It's still prone.. prone. prone.. prone.. lose +50% HP in the initial 10 seconds of the fight against any fighter class, if you fail to dodge Takedown or FLS, with TD being one of the fastest activating CC powers that registers a hit even though the "hit" part of the animation isn't even activated yet. Literally you need to anticipate and roll before even you see anything to dodge it successfully. When the fighter closes in and even just starts raising his hilt, if you go into a dodge at that timing, you will be hit mid-dodge.
Wasn't the whole point of Tenacity's CC resistance to stop this bullshi*? But no. It doesn't work. It's still chain-prones no matter how high your Tenacity is... the only victim being the poor CWs (although some of them can still do the choke-meatball combo easily, as I've experienced first hand).
Leave the damage alone. Just do something about the guaranteed non-stop attacks and chained combos once any of the prone-spamming connects even once, and that should be fine.
You a halfling or maybe a dwarf? You should be able to dodge out of an Icy Rays/Entangle/Shard combo 90% of the times. If not, sorry... you're kinda outta luck if you don't deflect some CC. You should also be able to sometimes resist or get away from GWF prone chains if you choose the correct race.
As for GWFs... some things changed. Repel is pretty much dead, which is more than annoying. Combos are way harder to land. Damage from at will still very high. Encounters still very dangerous and with very short animations, and prone chain working flawlessly still. High deflect, Tenacity geared halfling is an almost impossible to CC combination.
But the very first source of annoyance is Threatening Rush. Take it away and GWF vs CW fights are suddenly different.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
But the very first source of annoyance is Threatening Rush. Take it away and GWF vs CW fights are suddenly different.
+1 rushing abilities of meele classes should have charges or a cooldown so it has to be used intelligently and can not be spammed mindlessly.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Chain prone is a specific rotation of powers. GWFs have it, GFs have it. It's not guaranteed cause the prones are now so fast that you need very perfect timing or the enemy is able to slip away. It already happens.
For GWFs, the reason is also that their powers are slow. Takedown? Dodged easily. IBS? Not a chance to land it unless the enemy is proned. That's why GWFs have prones. Do CWs have problems hitting GWFs? Or is it a problem for TRs or HRs to land their powers? Nope. GWFs have to prone the target to land IBS, which is the main source of damage.
If you look closely, you'll see most encounters of a GWF are specifically designed to slow/ stun/ prone the target in order to be able to land the heavy DPS blow with IBS. Even like this, takedown and flourish have such slow animations that most players are able to dodge roll/ teleport in time and make them crush against immunity, in a 1v1 situation. Frontline has a 19 seconds CD and i can dodge it many times with sprint in 1v1 situations, just sprinting to the back of the GWF when you guess they will use it. So it can be dodged/ evaded, and sent to a long cooldown. Roar stuns the enemy. Not-so- fast slows it down a lot.
Against this ability to prone (which still can be evaded/ dodged) chain the enemy, other classes have:
block immunity
dodge roll immunity
teleport immunity
ITC immunity
ranged DPS and CC with 100% chance to hit the GWF
ranged debuff with 100% chance to debuff the GWF
Prones (yes, you have them in any class) which prevent the GWF from going unstoppable
100% chance to hit the GWF in any moment
Now, i'm happy about the changes since they could improve internal balance, and i hope they'll work well in the future.
But i also know that it won't be enough to stop the whining, just because i see what people writes, and most of the time it's a out-of-target rage against the Whole class rather than a specific pointing out the real issues. And many posts are simply out of reality, with more fantasy stuff rather than real experience. Like the point of view of a clueless and gearless player who ended up fighting a veteran 16k sentinel.
But the very first source of annoyance is Threatening Rush. Take it away and GWF vs CW fights are suddenly different.
I'd just reduce the damage of TR increase, on the other hand, the range of CWs teleport. HRs and TRs are fine the way they are in PvP.
But i can guarantee you that people will keep complaining, pointing the finger on frontline, unstoppable, roar, exc...
These changes are very good for internal balance of the class. In PvP it's still to see how these will work. Sure thing, SoTS nerf and deep gash changes will reduce sentinels damage. Which adds to regeneration nerf through healing depression= reduced survivability. Now i think people should stop the whining a bit and try to test the changes, adapt and learn. Then discuss stuff again later.
+1 rushing abilities of meele classes should have charges or a cooldown so it has to be used intelligently and can not be spammed mindlessly.
Some of them, like punishing charge(gwf) are. But, in return, CW CC shouldnt be so constant too i think. This is coming from someone who uses both melee and wizard in pvp... i can get perma-controlled by wizards, and have perma-controlled melees with my wizard. The melees have to have some form of gap closing, and if you take away rush abilities(by making threatening rush cooldown, or have charge) the CWs 3 dashes pretty much means no melee will touch them...ever.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
I'd just reduce the damage of TR increase, on the other hand, the range of CWs teleport. HRs and TRs are fine the way they are in PvP.
But i can guarantee you that people will keep complaining, pointing the finger on frontline, unstoppable, roar, exc...
These changes are very good for internal balance of the class. In PvP it's still to see how these will work. Sure thing, SoTS nerf and deep gash changes will reduce sentinels damage. Which adds to regeneration nerf through healing depression= reduced survivability. Now i think people should stop the whining a bit and try to test the changes, adapt and learn. Then discuss stuff again later.
^ this +1. Most of these guys are complaining w/o thoroughly testing out the new pvp...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
+1 rushing abilities of meele classes should have charges or a cooldown so it has to be used intelligently and can not be spammed mindlessly.
It still would not be a problem if it wasn't for the chain-prones. I know, because I use a Whisperkife TR with Vengeance's Pursuit.
VP is a zero-cooldown gap-closer. Spammable. However, it needs the follow-up Dazing Strike to mean anything, otherwise I may get easily retaliated, or the distance grows without much of damage dealt to the target. I have only that one CC, and its difficult to connect, and if it fails then there's not much to do.
Now, imagine I had like 2~3 more powers that dealt CC so quicky and easily, so I close gap, try CC. Misses? Try another one, and another one until one of them just has to land, and I'm given a chance to deal huge damage. If the first one does connect, then I prone, and then prone again, in a chained combo until the target is half-dead and desparately trying to run, at which point I chase with the gap-closer, and after about maybe 10~12 seconds, prone again, and again, and again.
It's not the gap closer that's the problem. It's the knock-prones. So many problems with it.
Being knocked is the most powerful CC in the game, can't activate immunity from it, much too long duration, and a single class wielding 3~4 of it at a time? Why do they even call the Control Wizards a "Control" Wizard? As it is the game's most powerful control class is fighters -- "Control Fighters", "CF"s.
I dunno what the hell the developers were thinking, but my guess is they've just seen too much WoW IceMage vs Warrior videos.
(ps) even the sprint is bullshi*. A spammable speed-buff that just ignores any control effect??? Why the heck does any GWF even need any other gap closer???
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'd just reduce the damage of TR increase, on the other hand, the range of CWs teleport. HRs and TRs are fine the way they are in PvP.
But i can guarantee you that people will keep complaining, pointing the finger on frontline, unstoppable, roar, exc...
These changes are very good for internal balance of the class. In PvP it's still to see how these will work. Sure thing, SoTS nerf and deep gash changes will reduce sentinels damage. Which adds to regeneration nerf through healing depression= reduced survivability. Now i think people should stop the whining a bit and try to test the changes, adapt and learn. Then discuss stuff again later.
Yeah the changes need to be tested. However, for the current state of affairs...
... CW has great difficulty hitting pro GWFs. I'll explain why.
- CW animations EXTREMELY long and obvious. This results in a pro GWF countering you as soon as you stopped to cast. For example, many times I happen to cast a choke on a GWF, yet he FLSed me at the same time as I needed to stop jumping around for my cast, and now I cannot continue with shard. Other good trick is sprinting the choke.
To land shard combo, you really need some fast and exact moves. It's unlike anything else in the game. Sprinting during choke will result in a badly cast shard. I usually try to predict where the GWF is with it though, most of the times not working.
If you attempt Icy Rays to stuck the GWF in place you risk a ton. Why? cause if they crit, it will turn the GWF unstoppable, and your combo is dead yet again.
- roar is actually much better against (good) CWs than FLS. This spell is kinda broken - you get CCed for long seconds, I'm not the first person wondering if it considers Tenacity. Takedown is easy from a roar.
- no good GWF will attempt their slower encounters on "active", good CWs. The GWF will spam TR for a HUGE chunk of damage, and then attempt a FLS when the CW is out of dodges. If the GWF is half good, the FLS will connect, and from then on, it's simple. If the GWF is smart to slot Roar, it's much simpler. Roar currently stuns me from teleports too BTW...
This is about now. What's gonna be in the future, remain to be seen. I made 0 comments on GWF changes cause I didn't test them. For me DG was never a huge issue (only 15% damage in PvP compared to 50-60% in PvE. I'm also believing in the fact that GWFs should enjoy themselves in PvE by all means, and top damage if they are specced for it), Threatening Rush was however, and FLS combo as well to a smaller degree. Also killing Repel didn't help either.
To be clear, most GWFs are hardly a decent challenge. The challenge comes from the properly PvP specced IV sents with gear comparable to mine and even lower. I might have a good balanced thrilling duel with a GWF and win by a very small margin, only to inspect him later and find he was a Destroyer or a normal-greater vorpal guy with r7s. Meeting good GWFs with proper spec and R9s+/Perfect Vorpal is almost always a loss. I think besides managing to proc Soulforge on 2 top GWFs, my CW always lost, and many times badly, without having even time to cast. So I pretty much avoid these beasts and only 2vs1 them if possible.
come on man. BiS CW vs BiS GWF is pretty much 50/50 now. No need to nerf em more. Maybe just fix some bugs like deep gash etc. But other then that i think its pretty balanced now.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
come on man. BiS CW vs BiS GWF is pretty much 50/50 now. No need to nerf em more. Maybe just fix some bugs like deep gash etc. But other then that i think its pretty balanced now.
I never saw any evidence for these 50/50 claims. All I see is CWs getting destroyed quite easily in top PvP by GWFs. Not even talking about myself, let's just ignore that, there are better CWs. They still die pretty easy to top GWFs.
Also what nerfs were applied that didn't affect anybody? Cause Tenacity is blanketing all.
I would like to see some top GWFs here being killed 50/50 by CWs, with video proof.
Some top GWFs examples:
- Pretty Woman
- PRLHydra
- Mjolnir
- Steamroller
- Bizzy
- esteena (GG Meld winning about 30% or so of matches back when Repel still worked)
There are many many other extremely good GWFs that would probably win just as easy as the ones above though.
I'm not taking into consideration fights where we start at 1 and finish at 3 and I hide around all pillars that I see around and repel GWFs down and nuke them. 1vs1 are pretty much to be played on point, sure you might teleport away a bit, but that doesn't mean you should kite all map.
Also nobody calling for nerfs. Changes will come very soon, what point is there in calling for something that will never be applied?
if i ever beat a gwf while recording ill put it up on the forums
No worries man. I know theyre not immortal. Some people just dont even try.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
come on man. BiS CW vs BiS GWF is pretty much 50/50 now. No need to nerf em more. Maybe just fix some bugs like deep gash etc. But other then that i think its pretty balanced now.
For GWFs, the reason is also that their powers are slow. Takedown? Dodged easily. IBS? Not a chance to land it unless the enemy is proned. That's why GWFs have prones. Do CWs have problems hitting GWFs? Or is it a problem for TRs or HRs to land their powers? Nope. GWFs have to prone the target to land IBS, which is the main source of damage.
If you look closely, you'll see most encounters of a GWF are specifically designed to slow/ stun/ prone the target in order to be able to land the heavy DPS blow with IBS. Even like this, takedown and flourish have such slow animations that most players are able to dodge roll/ teleport in time and make them crush against immunity, in a 1v1 situation. Frontline has a 19 seconds CD and i can dodge it many times with sprint in 1v1 situations, just sprinting to the back of the GWF when you guess they will use it. So it can be dodged/ evaded, and sent to a long cooldown. Roar stuns the enemy. Not-so- fast slows it down a lot.
With all respect, but only the bad GWFs use knockdown in the obvious way. Most spam TR until you waste all your dodges (if you had the chance to do it at all, if frontline surge hits its over anyways), then you can knockdown easily. Besides: Abilities with a range like Frontline surge are nearly impossible to dodge by reacting due to its instantaneous animations. You always have to guess and often dodge 'into the blue'. Most GWFs are incredible bad and cast an ability as soon as they are in range, meaning that this guessing often works well, BUT good ones just spam threatening rush - which almost always has to be dodged afterwards, because it is no point casting spells while a GWF can hit you in the face - you waste your dodges fast. Now combine this with frontline surge, unstoppable and rush... Do you really think that 3 dodges and one entangle are enough to counter this? not the slightest. It is impossible to keep these GWFs at distance.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
It's not only about CWs. There are other classes in PvP. Right now, GWF PvP spec vs TR perma hybrid build, is pretty much an even fight if both are fighting on a point.
Threat rush cannot be spammed anymore, they added a short cooldown if the animation is cancelled. If it seems to you like it's being spammed, it's usually due to the skill lagging. But it does not hit and rubberbands the GWF back a bit. Annoying.
Frontline is predictable most of the times. On a good GWF, it's not a guarantee dodge. And it shouldn't be, in fact. Would it be balanced if a 19 seconds CD prone could be easily dodged at will?
It works this way for most things. GFs can block. Is it a guarantee defense? No. I can burn the guard down with my at-wills. He can stop blocking, tank, and block again to fool me. Run and turn to block. I wouldn't know when he would use his block, and he wouldn't know when i would use my prones.
Same goes for teleport/ dodge rolls. I don't know when you will teleport if the CW is not predictable in using it. And the CW does not know when i will use my prone. With this i'm not saying there are not things to improve on CWs for PvP, as much as they should be fixed in PvE to stop being a 1 man army. What i'm saying is that immunities vs prone is mostly a battle of mind: there is no guarantee success with a move. The point is, many GFs just block everything and waste their guard, and most CWs just teleport as soon as the GWF is close to them. As much as some GWFs use frontline as soon as they get in range, which is a easy dodge, and that's why i'm able to dodge it with just sprint, many times.
Anyway, i would reduce threat rush damage at least to a simbolic low damage. GFs use it as a gap closer and would not change much. GWFs would still have the gap closer, but lose the damage it deals.
After that, one way to do things could be to increase the number of teleports for CWs, may be 4, in between what they have now and what HRs can do.
With ice wind dale changes, it would be enough imho.
persephone, the changes are pretty much:
- deep gash reduced in damage, depending on power alone. Moved further on the destro tree. Read as: sentinels lose deep gash damage.
- increased the overall ability of Destroyers to deal damage thorugh their feats and improved destroyer's purpose for both PvE and PvP.
- SoTS nerfed a lot (5% def debuff, does not stacks (icewind dale), vs 15% def debuff stacked 3 times= 45% (now)). Read as: sentinels critical builds in particular, GWFs in general, lose damage mainly in PvP since their crits now do not debuff the enemy much
Overall, sentinels get hurt decently in PvP and consistently in PvE, since you now miss deep gash if you go sentinel. My hybrid build will no longer be half decent, so i'm already working on changes. May be i'll go back to destroyer.
Even in PvP now destroyers will have noticeable damage advantage over sentinels. Sentinels will still deal good damage in PvP, but losing deep gash and SoTS debuff will make them less Dangerous, on top of the survivability heavy reduction though healing depression.
Moving ArP to STR would probably give another good hit to their damage, while DoT resistance moved from STR to CON would make them a bit more tanky.
I'll say again, however, that it's most of the times a player fault if a GWF, now, can tank multiple enemies. It happens to me 90% of the times that i'm fighting an enemy sentinel, often better geared. I'm taking him down thanks to good strategy and chain prones.
Then a team mate butts in and suddenly the enemy GWF is unstoppable 99% of the time, and i can't take it down anymore. And we spend 5 minutes trying to kill him.
I think people should understand by now that, against GWFs, you either:
- leave the job to another GWF or GF
- leave the job to a TR
- if you gonna fight 2-3 against him, you have to: prone first if you have prones, then use encounters, and use at wills only when he is unstoppable. If you have no prones, do not <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> attack until he is proned by someone else, and spam at-wills and debuffs when he's in unstoppable.
DO NOT, FOR GOD SAKE, SPAM YOUR PUNY AT-WILLS AGAINST A NORMAL GWF. Do not attack at all, it's better. Really.
I keep experiencing this in PvP.
It's such a nightmare when there are other players "helping", as much as it is easy as a pie when i'm 1v1ing them.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Making the GWF big&red all time is one of the things I hate most and is rendering my shard pretty useless, but you cannot talk reason with most pugs
As for the changes, I really need to test them, I read them myself but can't really tell how things will go. Destroyers are now pretty dangerous in PvP if they get to hit you first, but they drop very fast Doubt they gonna be viable without significant survivability changes as they might even die in one prone rotation with their typical 23-26K HP.
As for the sentinels, this really needs to be tested quite extensively. My guess is that people will find something and still be OP, just as it happened with the TRs - so much tragedy&drama about Tenacity (one of my guildies even gave away his stuff... left game... returned after the PotB/SE style emerged and now plays with borrowed R7s...), but people took just a few days to come up with something way more annoying than the usual Impact Shot stuff.
Still waiting for the day some CW discovers some OP build that allows us to do stuff that other classes do right now, specifically be the predator instead of the prey and the strongest 1vs1 class. Dreams, I know.
Threat rush cannot be spammed anymore, they added a short cooldown if the animation is cancelled. If it seems to you like it's being spammed, it's usually due to the skill lagging. But it does not hit and rubberbands the GWF back a bit. Annoying.
I was referring to the current state, not to future changes.
Frontline is predictable most of the times. On a good GWF, it's not a guarantee dodge. And it shouldn't be, in fact. Would it be balanced if a 19 seconds CD prone could be easily dodged at will?
First: It is absolutely not possible to dodge by reacting to this skill, what you say is completely wrong. Second: No ability should be a guaranteed dodge, but this ability gives prone over a long distance which is very strong. Take a HR grasping roots for example which have a similar CD (of over 17s).
It works this way for most things. GFs can block. Is it a guarantee defense? No. I can burn the guard down with my at-wills. He can stop blocking, tank, and block again to fool me. Run and turn to block. I wouldn't know when he would use his block, and he wouldn't know when i would use my prones.
Same goes for teleport/ dodge rolls. I don't know when you will teleport if the CW is not predictable in using it. And the CW does not know when i will use my prone. With this i'm not saying there are not things to improve on CWs for PvP, as much as they should be fixed in PvE to stop being a 1 man army. What i'm saying is that immunities vs prone is mostly a battle of mind: there is no guarantee success with a move. The point is, many GFs just block everything and waste their guard, and most CWs just teleport as soon as the GWF is close to them. As much as some GWFs use frontline as soon as they get in range, which is a easy dodge, and that's why i'm able to dodge it with just sprint, many times.
I agree with you that you have to anticipate moves etc. but saying that you waste dodge when a GWF is infront of you is not correct - this works only if you are 100% sure that his abilities are on cooldown. Therefore if he is continously using TR (the original) in the first place it is necessary to dodge afterwards or you will get a knockdown - even entangle is often too risky if you have it ready.
Anyway, i would reduce threat rush damage at least to a simbolic low damage. GFs use it as a gap closer and would not change much. GWFs would still have the gap closer, but lose the damage it deals.
After that, one way to do things could be to increase the number of teleports for CWs, may be 4, in between what they have now and what HRs can do.
If nothing would be changed for GWFs (i.e. a cooldown on TR) i'd prefer to increase the shield (FYI I dont use shield normally in pvp, because the gain you get is not so much in what you loose) to make it more useful. Or add mirror images / invisiblity as a survival ability. But I dont play only CW and GWFs are strong against almost everyone...
Anyways, lets see how the upcoming changes will alter the PvP experience. I hope for the best.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Congratulations on achieveing your goal, guys. GWF is effectively nerfed into the ground, once again.
Well done.
Not truly nerfed to the ground. More like there's now a more marked DPS gain in destroyer path over sentinels. I can sum it up quite easily here:
- In PvP, as persephone says, probably sentinels are still the way to go, due to the better survivability. People go full HP and tankiness is valued above DPS in PvP, probably due to design of the maps. You've to tank a lot as a GWF in PvP, so being squishy/ glass cannon is not really a good choice. Still, with proper gear this can be reduced (aka, high deflection, i'd go for a profund sentinel set or grim sentinel set).
- In PvE, probably now Destroyers PvE specced can keep their damage (high power for deep gash, destroyer purpose and focused destroyer stacks, and so on...), since DPS feats are now moved further in the destroyer tree. Destroyer's purpose buff/ rework, power rework and focused destroyer changes will probably balance the deep gash nerf, with GWF DPS more linked to how they play rather than being a flat damage coming from a feat that procs. Sentinels are now not really viable in PvE... with deep gash DPS gone, and no real ability to generate enough threat/ tank in dungeons as much as GFs, i believe sentinels will be PvP-only.
Hope they'll introduce dual spec, cause the way i read the changes, you'll either go destroyer and be good DPS in PvE but suck in PvP, or go sentinel and be good in PvP but suck in PvE.
Still waiting for the day CWs will stop being one-man-armies in PvE. But looks like it's not a top-priority for devs.
- Instigator tree is lol. I mean, with SoTS nerfed, the less-wanted tree is now probably useless. Could as well remove it. Don't know.
This tree needs love. Could use more flexibility to be the tree that allows people to switch from increasing survivability to increasing DPS, depending on the strategy applied.
My guess is that people will find something and still be OP, just as it happened with the TRs - so much tragedy&drama about Tenacity (one of my guildies even gave away his stuff... left game... returned after the PotB/SE style emerged and now plays with borrowed R7s...), but people took just a few days to come up with something way more annoying than the usual Impact Shot stuff.
Still waiting for the day some CW discovers some OP build that allows us to do stuff that other classes do right now, specifically be the predator instead of the prey and the strongest 1vs1 class. Dreams, I know.
TRs community are the worst crybabies among all the classes. For a class that uses to be so aggressive when people cry about them, telling other players to "L2P" everytime, they sure cry a lot and complain a lot over nothing.
They cried and cried for months about GWFs. Then they cried and cried a ton over tenacity. And their class is stil lthere being probably the most powerful PvP class.
Geez.
About CWs, i'd love to see them finding their place/ balance in PvP, as much as i'd love to see them stop being so unbelievably OP in PvE, with a proper change in the design af all the PvE content. Right now, and for the past, at least, 8 months, they are and have been one-man-armies, top CC class and top DPS class in PvE, able to single-handedly clear huge mob crowds, monopolyzing all the PvE groups. Except may be FH. But since it's PvE, there are few people trying to point out the issue.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
About CWs, i'd love to see them finding their place/ balance in PvP, as much as i'd love to see them stop being so unbelievably OP in PvE, with a proper change in the design af all the PvE content. Right now, and for the past, at least, 8 months, they are and have been one-man-armies, top CC class and top DPS class in PvE, able to single-handedly clear huge mob crowds, monopolyzing all the PvE groups. Except may be FH. But since it's PvE, there are few people trying to point out the issue.
Well, first its the map design which favours the CWs by the large amounts of adds. Second: There are GWFs who can deal alot damage as well, more than most wizards. Third: In PVE all players work on the same side... personally I find an 'adjustment' in the meters not so much of priority than the pvp experience.
One can be frustrated not to be on top damage, but IMO that is alot less frustrating than getting smashed frequently because of certain imbalances in PvP. In the end I think all we want is a fair experience with different classes, thats a challenge which comes only over time and feedback. So let us all work on that goal
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
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bobiwanMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
I think OP was actually closer to a solid fix than any may realize, goes further than GWF as well - make prone on a player trigger a 3-second immunity to prone for said player.
Kills prone-locking outright, and forces prone to be something the player will need to exploit the opportunity it grants, not spam.
As it stands now with prone-lock, a skilled player has to work their bum off to compete with a trained monkey.
This shouldn't affect PVE at all, leaving the closing ability as it stands for PVE/PVP and full prone abilities in PVE, but making prone overall less overpoweringly difficult to deal with in PVP.
Either that, or make tenacity resist prone. I don't want to get off my back quicker, I want to resist being knocked on my back in the first place..... it's not Like I don't have a high enough dex to land on my feet.
Well, first its the map design which favours the CWs by the large amounts of adds. Second: There are GWFs who can deal alot damage as well, more than most wizards. Third: In PVE all players work on the same side... personally I find an 'adjustment' in the meters not so much of priority than the pvp experience.
One can be frustrated not to be on top damage, but IMO that is alot less frustrating than getting smashed frequently because of certain imbalances in PvP. In the end I think all we want is a fair experience with different classes, thats a challenge which comes only over time and feedback. So let us all work on that goal
- Yes, and nothing has changed so far, and all the crybabies focused on complaining about GWFs
- Yes, PvE GWFs can deal lots of damage. Equally geared PvE CWs can deal the same damage or slightly more, and at the same time CC the entire mob army with no target CAP. Tells everything.
- All players work on the same side, but when someone's looking to create a strong Group, what do you think they do first? I'l lanswer you: they stack CWs. It is like that right now, it's been like that for the past 8 months at least.
One can be frustrated not by not being top damage. One can be frustrated when he tries to get in a good Group for a dungeon and can't be joined cause every good party stacks CWs 2-3 at least, to clear the dungeon faster. Only exception being FH, where usually a tank GF is needed.
Valindra's Tower is the dungeon with the highest GS requirement. You can clear it fast with stacked CWs, no problem. CC and nuke the sea of adds. Final boss fight? The first video i can recall of a party Killing Valindra nice and easy was a 3CWs, 1 HR, 1 DC Group. Tells everything. Not a casket missed.
Is it possible to clear dungoens with other compositions? Yes.
Do people care about Rainbow groups or joining different classes? No. They want a easy and fast ride. And CWs can provide it all-in-one.
Want more?
GWFs got good DPS thanks to deep gash. Now, what happened? Loads of crying on forum about GWFs dealing too much damage in PvE due to deep gash. Who cares if CWs can do the same AND CC the Whole dungeon at the same time.
A PvE specced CW is as OP in PvE as old Module 2 sentinels were pre-PvP patch. And is there, untouched, since ages. Dungeon design, untouched.
Main focus of the last months was: monsternerf GWFs in PvP, nerf them in PvE too.
About the changes: could be good. But caould also trigger a ton of whining again.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I think OP was actually closer to a solid fix than any may realize, goes further than GWF as well - make prone on a player trigger a 3-second immunity to prone for said player.
Kills prone-locking outright, and forces prone to be something the player will need to exploit the opportunity it grants, not spam.
As it stands now with prone-lock, a skilled player has to work their bum off to compete with a trained monkey.
This shouldn't affect PVE at all, leaving the closing ability as it stands for PVE/PVP and full prone abilities in PVE, but making prone overall less overpoweringly difficult to deal with in PVP.
This is another very good suggestion!!! Dimish returns should come in place here.
- Yes, and nothing has changed so far, and all the crybabies focused on complaining about GWFs
I find it highly disrespectful to call people names just because they write against the current state of the GWFs. Granted, sometimes it happends that an undergeared and/or unexperienced player meets a geared and experienced one, but I find that in general people are making constructive posts and suggestions.
- Yes, PvE GWFs can deal lots of damage. Equally geared PvE CWs can deal the same damage or slightly more, and at the same time CC the entire mob army with no target CAP. Tells everything.
As you already said: 'the entire mob army'. There is no reason to add so many mobs into the dungeons. Besides: There was never be a choice to play a DPS caster class in this game. And before module 2 there wasnt even another ranged DPS class in the game. Some people want to play mages entirely as DPS class. In the early days I remember that TRs were on top of all meters anyways and no one had a problem with CWs damage performance.
- All players work on the same side, but when someone's looking to create a strong Group, what do you think they do first? I'l lanswer you: they stack CWs. It is like that right now, it's been like that for the past 8 months at least.
One can be frustrated not by not being top damage. One can be frustrated when he tries to get in a good Group for a dungeon and can't be joined cause every good party stacks CWs 2-3 at least, to clear the dungeon faster. Only exception being FH, where usually a tank GF is needed.
Valindra's Tower is the dungeon with the highest GS requirement. You can clear it fast with stacked CWs, no problem. CC and nuke the sea of adds. Final boss fight? The first video i can recall of a party Killing Valindra nice and easy was a 3CWs, 1 HR, 1 DC Group. Tells everything. Not a casket missed.
(...)
Is it possible to clear dungoens with other compositions? Yes.
Do people care about Rainbow groups or joining different classes? No. They want a easy and fast ride. And CWs can provide it all-in-one.
Then make your own party. I was in enough parties with no CW or just a few and everything worked fine. For example I played CN 4/4 with only me as CW and 2 GWFs with no wipes.
Main focus of the last months was: monsternerf GWFs in PvP, nerf them in PvE too.
Come on... they ARE superior in PvP in its current state (mod2). It is normal that this causes alot of complains.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
No one wants that, but people do want things to be fair. The GWF has always been a top tier pick for pvp. The 1st 5 months they werent played often because of their lack of desire in pve! but in pvp they have always been god tier tanks, able to apply alot of agression to a node and stick around permanently to score points with thier unstoppable, sprint and jump abilities. It alows the player the option of always running before dying, to get a potion heal up and come back. Only rogues get this thru the mercy of stealth, which is closebut not as strong as gwf.
The biggest issue that should be addressed with all this pvp hubbub..is the the gf and the gwf are almost the same character, but the gear and ability score scaling on the gwf have always been better. The gf is limited in play choices and always over shadowed by other classes.
What? GWF top tier for pvp?, you are terribly wrong. The top tier is rogue with permanent stealth and impossible to catch skills, those are absolutely OP. CW's hit a ton and make you stay in one place for like 7 seconds. Hr's with regeneration skill are just as impossible to kill as a rogue. And you think GWF is unbalanced? go get a life.
Comments
+1 .
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?635921-Deep-Gash-Change-Ice-Wind-Dale-Expansion-Test-Shard
Ice wind dale curse will cut sentinels damage by a lot it seems. These changes may very well give the destroyer tree his DPS role and cut sentinels damage enough to make them less powerful in PvP.
Still, i think the whining about GWFs will keep going. Well, if someone could open a thread to complain about takedown, i guess the bullcrap will keep going.
Waiting to test these changes and looking forward to see how they work!
The whining will continue nonetheless as you've foreseen -- because the frustrations against the GWF class does not stem from damage, but rather the ability to deal damage.
Personally, I don't think they should lower the damage of GWFs anymore. Sure, the damage is strong, even after the survivability of the class has been toned down. But it's not that their damage is powerful itself that's the problem, but rather the ability to totally incapacitate someone with 2~3 consecutive prones which is the no-brainer.
...
Honestly, folks, let me ask you a question.
Did Tenacity change anything for you when you are fighting GWFs and GFs?
Once, people thought Tenacity will significantly help avoid the chane prones.. but meh... in reality, not a chance.
It's still prone.. prone. prone.. prone.. lose +50% HP in the initial 10 seconds of the fight against any fighter class, if you fail to dodge Takedown or FLS, with TD being one of the fastest activating CC powers that registers a hit even though the "hit" part of the animation isn't even activated yet. Literally you need to anticipate and roll before even you see anything to dodge it successfully. When the fighter closes in and even just starts raising his hilt, if you go into a dodge at that timing, you will be hit mid-dodge.
Wasn't the whole point of Tenacity's CC resistance to stop this bullshi*? But no. It doesn't work. It's still chain-prones no matter how high your Tenacity is... the only victim being the poor CWs (although some of them can still do the choke-meatball combo easily, as I've experienced first hand).
Leave the damage alone. Just do something about the guaranteed non-stop attacks and chained combos once any of the prone-spamming connects even once, and that should be fine.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You a halfling or maybe a dwarf? You should be able to dodge out of an Icy Rays/Entangle/Shard combo 90% of the times. If not, sorry... you're kinda outta luck if you don't deflect some CC. You should also be able to sometimes resist or get away from GWF prone chains if you choose the correct race.
As for GWFs... some things changed. Repel is pretty much dead, which is more than annoying. Combos are way harder to land. Damage from at will still very high. Encounters still very dangerous and with very short animations, and prone chain working flawlessly still. High deflect, Tenacity geared halfling is an almost impossible to CC combination.
But the very first source of annoyance is Threatening Rush. Take it away and GWF vs CW fights are suddenly different.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
For GWFs, the reason is also that their powers are slow. Takedown? Dodged easily. IBS? Not a chance to land it unless the enemy is proned. That's why GWFs have prones. Do CWs have problems hitting GWFs? Or is it a problem for TRs or HRs to land their powers? Nope. GWFs have to prone the target to land IBS, which is the main source of damage.
If you look closely, you'll see most encounters of a GWF are specifically designed to slow/ stun/ prone the target in order to be able to land the heavy DPS blow with IBS. Even like this, takedown and flourish have such slow animations that most players are able to dodge roll/ teleport in time and make them crush against immunity, in a 1v1 situation. Frontline has a 19 seconds CD and i can dodge it many times with sprint in 1v1 situations, just sprinting to the back of the GWF when you guess they will use it. So it can be dodged/ evaded, and sent to a long cooldown. Roar stuns the enemy. Not-so- fast slows it down a lot.
Against this ability to prone (which still can be evaded/ dodged) chain the enemy, other classes have:
block immunity
dodge roll immunity
teleport immunity
ITC immunity
ranged DPS and CC with 100% chance to hit the GWF
ranged debuff with 100% chance to debuff the GWF
Prones (yes, you have them in any class) which prevent the GWF from going unstoppable
100% chance to hit the GWF in any moment
Now, i'm happy about the changes since they could improve internal balance, and i hope they'll work well in the future.
But i also know that it won't be enough to stop the whining, just because i see what people writes, and most of the time it's a out-of-target rage against the Whole class rather than a specific pointing out the real issues. And many posts are simply out of reality, with more fantasy stuff rather than real experience. Like the point of view of a clueless and gearless player who ended up fighting a veteran 16k sentinel.
I'd just reduce the damage of TR increase, on the other hand, the range of CWs teleport. HRs and TRs are fine the way they are in PvP.
But i can guarantee you that people will keep complaining, pointing the finger on frontline, unstoppable, roar, exc...
These changes are very good for internal balance of the class. In PvP it's still to see how these will work. Sure thing, SoTS nerf and deep gash changes will reduce sentinels damage. Which adds to regeneration nerf through healing depression= reduced survivability. Now i think people should stop the whining a bit and try to test the changes, adapt and learn. Then discuss stuff again later.
Some of them, like punishing charge(gwf) are. But, in return, CW CC shouldnt be so constant too i think. This is coming from someone who uses both melee and wizard in pvp... i can get perma-controlled by wizards, and have perma-controlled melees with my wizard. The melees have to have some form of gap closing, and if you take away rush abilities(by making threatening rush cooldown, or have charge) the CWs 3 dashes pretty much means no melee will touch them...ever.
^ this +1. Most of these guys are complaining w/o thoroughly testing out the new pvp...
It still would not be a problem if it wasn't for the chain-prones. I know, because I use a Whisperkife TR with Vengeance's Pursuit.
VP is a zero-cooldown gap-closer. Spammable. However, it needs the follow-up Dazing Strike to mean anything, otherwise I may get easily retaliated, or the distance grows without much of damage dealt to the target. I have only that one CC, and its difficult to connect, and if it fails then there's not much to do.
Now, imagine I had like 2~3 more powers that dealt CC so quicky and easily, so I close gap, try CC. Misses? Try another one, and another one until one of them just has to land, and I'm given a chance to deal huge damage. If the first one does connect, then I prone, and then prone again, in a chained combo until the target is half-dead and desparately trying to run, at which point I chase with the gap-closer, and after about maybe 10~12 seconds, prone again, and again, and again.
It's not the gap closer that's the problem. It's the knock-prones. So many problems with it.
Being knocked is the most powerful CC in the game, can't activate immunity from it, much too long duration, and a single class wielding 3~4 of it at a time? Why do they even call the Control Wizards a "Control" Wizard? As it is the game's most powerful control class is fighters -- "Control Fighters", "CF"s.
I dunno what the hell the developers were thinking, but my guess is they've just seen too much WoW IceMage vs Warrior videos.
(ps) even the sprint is bullshi*. A spammable speed-buff that just ignores any control effect??? Why the heck does any GWF even need any other gap closer???
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Yeah the changes need to be tested. However, for the current state of affairs...
... CW has great difficulty hitting pro GWFs. I'll explain why.
- CW animations EXTREMELY long and obvious. This results in a pro GWF countering you as soon as you stopped to cast. For example, many times I happen to cast a choke on a GWF, yet he FLSed me at the same time as I needed to stop jumping around for my cast, and now I cannot continue with shard. Other good trick is sprinting the choke.
To land shard combo, you really need some fast and exact moves. It's unlike anything else in the game. Sprinting during choke will result in a badly cast shard. I usually try to predict where the GWF is with it though, most of the times not working.
If you attempt Icy Rays to stuck the GWF in place you risk a ton. Why? cause if they crit, it will turn the GWF unstoppable, and your combo is dead yet again.
- roar is actually much better against (good) CWs than FLS. This spell is kinda broken - you get CCed for long seconds, I'm not the first person wondering if it considers Tenacity. Takedown is easy from a roar.
- no good GWF will attempt their slower encounters on "active", good CWs. The GWF will spam TR for a HUGE chunk of damage, and then attempt a FLS when the CW is out of dodges. If the GWF is half good, the FLS will connect, and from then on, it's simple. If the GWF is smart to slot Roar, it's much simpler. Roar currently stuns me from teleports too BTW...
This is about now. What's gonna be in the future, remain to be seen. I made 0 comments on GWF changes cause I didn't test them. For me DG was never a huge issue (only 15% damage in PvP compared to 50-60% in PvE. I'm also believing in the fact that GWFs should enjoy themselves in PvE by all means, and top damage if they are specced for it), Threatening Rush was however, and FLS combo as well to a smaller degree. Also killing Repel didn't help either.
To be clear, most GWFs are hardly a decent challenge. The challenge comes from the properly PvP specced IV sents with gear comparable to mine and even lower. I might have a good balanced thrilling duel with a GWF and win by a very small margin, only to inspect him later and find he was a Destroyer or a normal-greater vorpal guy with r7s. Meeting good GWFs with proper spec and R9s+/Perfect Vorpal is almost always a loss. I think besides managing to proc Soulforge on 2 top GWFs, my CW always lost, and many times badly, without having even time to cast. So I pretty much avoid these beasts and only 2vs1 them if possible.
come on man. BiS CW vs BiS GWF is pretty much 50/50 now. No need to nerf em more. Maybe just fix some bugs like deep gash etc. But other then that i think its pretty balanced now.
I never saw any evidence for these 50/50 claims. All I see is CWs getting destroyed quite easily in top PvP by GWFs. Not even talking about myself, let's just ignore that, there are better CWs. They still die pretty easy to top GWFs.
Also what nerfs were applied that didn't affect anybody? Cause Tenacity is blanketing all.
I would like to see some top GWFs here being killed 50/50 by CWs, with video proof.
Some top GWFs examples:
- Pretty Woman
- PRLHydra
- Mjolnir
- Steamroller
- Bizzy
- esteena (GG Meld winning about 30% or so of matches back when Repel still worked)
There are many many other extremely good GWFs that would probably win just as easy as the ones above though.
I'm not taking into consideration fights where we start at 1 and finish at 3 and I hide around all pillars that I see around and repel GWFs down and nuke them. 1vs1 are pretty much to be played on point, sure you might teleport away a bit, but that doesn't mean you should kite all map.
Also nobody calling for nerfs. Changes will come very soon, what point is there in calling for something that will never be applied?
It's all just theoretical discussion.
if i ever beat a gwf while recording ill put it up on the forums
No worries man. I know theyre not immortal. Some people just dont even try.
*falls over laughing*
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Why dont we do a 1v1 then Trace ?
PM me! im in your guild
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Threat rush cannot be spammed anymore, they added a short cooldown if the animation is cancelled. If it seems to you like it's being spammed, it's usually due to the skill lagging. But it does not hit and rubberbands the GWF back a bit. Annoying.
Frontline is predictable most of the times. On a good GWF, it's not a guarantee dodge. And it shouldn't be, in fact. Would it be balanced if a 19 seconds CD prone could be easily dodged at will?
It works this way for most things. GFs can block. Is it a guarantee defense? No. I can burn the guard down with my at-wills. He can stop blocking, tank, and block again to fool me. Run and turn to block. I wouldn't know when he would use his block, and he wouldn't know when i would use my prones.
Same goes for teleport/ dodge rolls. I don't know when you will teleport if the CW is not predictable in using it. And the CW does not know when i will use my prone. With this i'm not saying there are not things to improve on CWs for PvP, as much as they should be fixed in PvE to stop being a 1 man army. What i'm saying is that immunities vs prone is mostly a battle of mind: there is no guarantee success with a move. The point is, many GFs just block everything and waste their guard, and most CWs just teleport as soon as the GWF is close to them. As much as some GWFs use frontline as soon as they get in range, which is a easy dodge, and that's why i'm able to dodge it with just sprint, many times.
Anyway, i would reduce threat rush damage at least to a simbolic low damage. GFs use it as a gap closer and would not change much. GWFs would still have the gap closer, but lose the damage it deals.
After that, one way to do things could be to increase the number of teleports for CWs, may be 4, in between what they have now and what HRs can do.
With ice wind dale changes, it would be enough imho.
persephone, the changes are pretty much:
- deep gash reduced in damage, depending on power alone. Moved further on the destro tree. Read as: sentinels lose deep gash damage.
- increased the overall ability of Destroyers to deal damage thorugh their feats and improved destroyer's purpose for both PvE and PvP.
- SoTS nerfed a lot (5% def debuff, does not stacks (icewind dale), vs 15% def debuff stacked 3 times= 45% (now)). Read as: sentinels critical builds in particular, GWFs in general, lose damage mainly in PvP since their crits now do not debuff the enemy much
Overall, sentinels get hurt decently in PvP and consistently in PvE, since you now miss deep gash if you go sentinel. My hybrid build will no longer be half decent, so i'm already working on changes. May be i'll go back to destroyer.
Even in PvP now destroyers will have noticeable damage advantage over sentinels. Sentinels will still deal good damage in PvP, but losing deep gash and SoTS debuff will make them less Dangerous, on top of the survivability heavy reduction though healing depression.
Moving ArP to STR would probably give another good hit to their damage, while DoT resistance moved from STR to CON would make them a bit more tanky.
I'll say again, however, that it's most of the times a player fault if a GWF, now, can tank multiple enemies. It happens to me 90% of the times that i'm fighting an enemy sentinel, often better geared. I'm taking him down thanks to good strategy and chain prones.
Then a team mate butts in and suddenly the enemy GWF is unstoppable 99% of the time, and i can't take it down anymore. And we spend 5 minutes trying to kill him.
I think people should understand by now that, against GWFs, you either:
- leave the job to another GWF or GF
- leave the job to a TR
- if you gonna fight 2-3 against him, you have to: prone first if you have prones, then use encounters, and use at wills only when he is unstoppable. If you have no prones, do not <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> attack until he is proned by someone else, and spam at-wills and debuffs when he's in unstoppable.
DO NOT, FOR GOD SAKE, SPAM YOUR PUNY AT-WILLS AGAINST A NORMAL GWF. Do not attack at all, it's better. Really.
I keep experiencing this in PvP.
It's such a nightmare when there are other players "helping", as much as it is easy as a pie when i'm 1v1ing them.
As for the changes, I really need to test them, I read them myself but can't really tell how things will go. Destroyers are now pretty dangerous in PvP if they get to hit you first, but they drop very fast
As for the sentinels, this really needs to be tested quite extensively. My guess is that people will find something and still be OP, just as it happened with the TRs - so much tragedy&drama about Tenacity (one of my guildies even gave away his stuff... left game... returned after the PotB/SE style emerged and now plays with borrowed R7s...), but people took just a few days to come up with something way more annoying than the usual Impact Shot stuff.
Still waiting for the day some CW discovers some OP build that allows us to do stuff that other classes do right now, specifically be the predator instead of the prey and the strongest 1vs1 class. Dreams, I know.
Well done.
If nothing would be changed for GWFs (i.e. a cooldown on TR) i'd prefer to increase the shield (FYI I dont use shield normally in pvp, because the gain you get is not so much in what you loose) to make it more useful. Or add mirror images / invisiblity as a survival ability. But I dont play only CW and GWFs are strong against almost everyone...
Anyways, lets see how the upcoming changes will alter the PvP experience. I hope for the best.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Not truly nerfed to the ground. More like there's now a more marked DPS gain in destroyer path over sentinels. I can sum it up quite easily here:
- In PvP, as persephone says, probably sentinels are still the way to go, due to the better survivability. People go full HP and tankiness is valued above DPS in PvP, probably due to design of the maps. You've to tank a lot as a GWF in PvP, so being squishy/ glass cannon is not really a good choice. Still, with proper gear this can be reduced (aka, high deflection, i'd go for a profund sentinel set or grim sentinel set).
- In PvE, probably now Destroyers PvE specced can keep their damage (high power for deep gash, destroyer purpose and focused destroyer stacks, and so on...), since DPS feats are now moved further in the destroyer tree. Destroyer's purpose buff/ rework, power rework and focused destroyer changes will probably balance the deep gash nerf, with GWF DPS more linked to how they play rather than being a flat damage coming from a feat that procs. Sentinels are now not really viable in PvE... with deep gash DPS gone, and no real ability to generate enough threat/ tank in dungeons as much as GFs, i believe sentinels will be PvP-only.
Hope they'll introduce dual spec, cause the way i read the changes, you'll either go destroyer and be good DPS in PvE but suck in PvP, or go sentinel and be good in PvP but suck in PvE.
Still waiting for the day CWs will stop being one-man-armies in PvE. But looks like it's not a top-priority for devs.
- Instigator tree is lol. I mean, with SoTS nerfed, the less-wanted tree is now probably useless. Could as well remove it. Don't know.
This tree needs love. Could use more flexibility to be the tree that allows people to switch from increasing survivability to increasing DPS, depending on the strategy applied.
We'll see...
TRs community are the worst crybabies among all the classes. For a class that uses to be so aggressive when people cry about them, telling other players to "L2P" everytime, they sure cry a lot and complain a lot over nothing.
They cried and cried for months about GWFs. Then they cried and cried a ton over tenacity. And their class is stil lthere being probably the most powerful PvP class.
Geez.
About CWs, i'd love to see them finding their place/ balance in PvP, as much as i'd love to see them stop being so unbelievably OP in PvE, with a proper change in the design af all the PvE content. Right now, and for the past, at least, 8 months, they are and have been one-man-armies, top CC class and top DPS class in PvE, able to single-handedly clear huge mob crowds, monopolyzing all the PvE groups. Except may be FH. But since it's PvE, there are few people trying to point out the issue.
One can be frustrated not to be on top damage, but IMO that is alot less frustrating than getting smashed frequently because of certain imbalances in PvP. In the end I think all we want is a fair experience with different classes, thats a challenge which comes only over time and feedback. So let us all work on that goal
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Kills prone-locking outright, and forces prone to be something the player will need to exploit the opportunity it grants, not spam.
As it stands now with prone-lock, a skilled player has to work their bum off to compete with a trained monkey.
This shouldn't affect PVE at all, leaving the closing ability as it stands for PVE/PVP and full prone abilities in PVE, but making prone overall less overpoweringly difficult to deal with in PVP.
Either that, or make tenacity resist prone. I don't want to get off my back quicker, I want to resist being knocked on my back in the first place..... it's not Like I don't have a high enough dex to land on my feet.
- Yes, and nothing has changed so far, and all the crybabies focused on complaining about GWFs
- Yes, PvE GWFs can deal lots of damage. Equally geared PvE CWs can deal the same damage or slightly more, and at the same time CC the entire mob army with no target CAP. Tells everything.
- All players work on the same side, but when someone's looking to create a strong Group, what do you think they do first? I'l lanswer you: they stack CWs. It is like that right now, it's been like that for the past 8 months at least.
One can be frustrated not by not being top damage. One can be frustrated when he tries to get in a good Group for a dungeon and can't be joined cause every good party stacks CWs 2-3 at least, to clear the dungeon faster. Only exception being FH, where usually a tank GF is needed.
Valindra's Tower is the dungeon with the highest GS requirement. You can clear it fast with stacked CWs, no problem. CC and nuke the sea of adds. Final boss fight? The first video i can recall of a party Killing Valindra nice and easy was a 3CWs, 1 HR, 1 DC Group. Tells everything. Not a casket missed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spGCyvHgx48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niwFrLDNtro
Is it possible to clear dungoens with other compositions? Yes.
Do people care about Rainbow groups or joining different classes? No. They want a easy and fast ride. And CWs can provide it all-in-one.
Want more?
GWFs got good DPS thanks to deep gash. Now, what happened? Loads of crying on forum about GWFs dealing too much damage in PvE due to deep gash. Who cares if CWs can do the same AND CC the Whole dungeon at the same time.
A PvE specced CW is as OP in PvE as old Module 2 sentinels were pre-PvP patch. And is there, untouched, since ages. Dungeon design, untouched.
Main focus of the last months was: monsternerf GWFs in PvP, nerf them in PvE too.
About the changes: could be good. But caould also trigger a ton of whining again.
This is another very good suggestion!!! Dimish returns should come in place here.
I find it highly disrespectful to call people names just because they write against the current state of the GWFs. Granted, sometimes it happends that an undergeared and/or unexperienced player meets a geared and experienced one, but I find that in general people are making constructive posts and suggestions. As you already said: 'the entire mob army'. There is no reason to add so many mobs into the dungeons. Besides: There was never be a choice to play a DPS caster class in this game. And before module 2 there wasnt even another ranged DPS class in the game. Some people want to play mages entirely as DPS class. In the early days I remember that TRs were on top of all meters anyways and no one had a problem with CWs damage performance. Then make your own party. I was in enough parties with no CW or just a few and everything worked fine. For example I played CN 4/4 with only me as CW and 2 GWFs with no wipes. Come on... they ARE superior in PvP in its current state (mod2). It is normal that this causes alot of complains.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
What? GWF top tier for pvp?, you are terribly wrong. The top tier is rogue with permanent stealth and impossible to catch skills, those are absolutely OP. CW's hit a ton and make you stay in one place for like 7 seconds. Hr's with regeneration skill are just as impossible to kill as a rogue. And you think GWF is unbalanced? go get a life.