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Cult of the Dragon Foundry Contest - Official Discussion Thread

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  • grimahgrimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Just one more question

    Will all entries made prior to the start date be voided?
    Creator of the featured survival horror foundry: "The Silence of Haydenwick" Video Review
    and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
  • akromatikakromatik Member Posts: 1
    edited July 2014
    grimah wrote: »
    Just one more question

    Will all entries made prior to the start date be voided?

    In order to be eligible for this contest, the Foundry quests must have been created specifically for this contest. We're trying to give everyone the same amount of time to create something. If a quest has been made and finished prior to the start date, I'm afraid it is not eligible for judging, as it would not have been made specifically for this contest.
  • celticgamer0celticgamer0 Member Posts: 537 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Just added mine to the contest ^.^
    Even if I do not win I had fun creating it

    ~Edit~ Why does it say it is 0 minutes?
  • akweteakwete Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Some quotes from others who have the same concerns as me in this thread. Note, there are more if you care to look:
    cloud990pl wrote: »
    heh, seems like winners will be people with most "friends" and guildmates that will buff their quest ratings and nerf other contestants quests ratings....
    Never leave rating to community... because right now someone might create arena type quest with dragons, name it "Dragon brawl" turn it into 15 minutes fight with generic combat and then call 300+ guild/"friends" to help them and rate it for 5 stars. After that they would ask their guildmates/"friends" to play others quests and rate them 1 star even if that quest would have maxed out complexity in 15 minutes and interesting story but no, community decides and like in our "awesome" real world whoever has more connections will win...
    Well, pesimism aside, nice contest.
    eskarine wrote: »
    This. This is exactly what's going to happen if you leave the judging to public.
    ...
    2.) Why are we leaving the winners up to stars? It seems like it would be better to decide them the same way as featured quests are decided. (Which I know is chosen by a Cryptic employee/Cryptic employees.)

    I would like to add my concern about this easily abused judging system too. As others have here, in zone chat and foundry chat, and on the neverwinter facebook: the people with the most friends/guildmates/subscribers will win this. This isn't supposition - I've seen it happen in many amateur-run contests, and someone on this thread has already stated they themselves actually intend to focus on their guildmates. This abuse WILL happen. At the moment, this contest is not about foundry writing, it's a popularity contest! To fix this, you need to either alter the existing system of judging, or add an equal number of prizes for un-biased, staff judged prizes.
    akromatik wrote: »

    I'd also like to point out that in order for a quest to win, it must be on the list that I'll put up when the contest is over. This will allow us to weed out any farm quests or quests that don't meet the requirements.
    Thanks for listening to our concerns, Akro! We appreciate that! But this is not the solution to the greater issue we all have; the problem remains. Whilst this does at least mean a quick farm quest can't win, it still means the actual foundry and the level of skill invested in it will play only a very small role in the outcome, and that a hastily and poorly made foundry can still easily beat an awe inspiring, meticulously and skillfully authored one if the person who authored it has more friends/guildies/subscribers.

    Please, add an alternative judging system. The ease with which the current one can be manipulated makes it highly unfair and undermines the purpose of the contest.
  • docsc00terdocsc00ter Member Posts: 285 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    You know, simply adding a couple of "Judges' Choice" awards to the event would resolve the remaining concerns being expressed.

    Requiring new quests keeps things fair.
    Reviewing quests to ensure they're appropriate keeps things fair.
    Being able to stack up ratings from friends/guildies seems unavoidable.

    But what if there are some really great quests that fit the theme, build toward the events of Module 4, and reflect many, many hours of quality, creative work, but that simply don't have the support of a popular or well-connected player? Perhaps Akro and his team might consider offering a "Judges' Choice" prize to one or more of these that deserve special recognition. The prize wouldn't have to be an entire Pack like the 1st/2nd/3rd place offerings. But maybe that "mount of your choice" or "companion of your choice" would be a nice gesture if someone submits a great entry that falls off the radar?

    Personally, I'm thrilled to see the support of Foundry Authors and the encouragement to do something special. And, yes, those prizes being offered are amazing. Here's hoping Cryptic can continue to extend a whole lot of goodwill to the Foundry community this way so that no hard-working Authors walk away from this event feeling like they were treated unfairly, or that the deck was stacked against them from the beginning. We want quality Authors to be recognized and submit even more quests for us all to enjoy!
  • dragoness10dragoness10 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 780 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I am probably missing the obvious somehow but where is the THREAD to post entries in?

    : SMACKS SELF: EDIT ---- http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?700781-Cult-of-the-Dragon-Foundry-Contest-Official-Contest-Thread


    PS: Your quest probably says 0 minutes as it has not been played through at least one time since publishing. That part I do know. This is also why I run my own quests multiple times to make sure they go over 15 minutes even with a 110% speed mount, and quick clicking through dialogue (IE Speedrunner method).
    " I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep

    "Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."

    "Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
  • reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I agree, a Judge's choice extra award would be a very good idea, and would prevent the entirely of teh contest to be based solely on friends and guildmates.
    2e2qwj6.jpg
  • apocrs1980apocrs1980 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Silverstars Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    akromatik wrote: »
    In order to be eligible for this contest, the Foundry quests must have been created specifically for this contest. We're trying to give everyone the same amount of time to create something. If a quest has been made and finished prior to the start date, I'm afraid it is not eligible for judging, as it would not have been made specifically for this contest.

    ahh crud looks like I'm out of the running then, I started to build mine prior to the announcement and only have 1 day (roughly 10 hours) a week to work on a foundry. So, gl to all that enter.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The Cragsteep Crypt - BETA
    Ravenloft
    Look [email protected] or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
  • akromatikakromatik Member Posts: 1
    edited July 2014

    Judges choice, eh? I'll take it into consideration! Thanks for the feedback :)

  • melindenmelinden Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    apocrs1980 wrote: »
    ahh crud looks like I'm out of the running then, I started to build mine prior to the announcement and only have 1 day (roughly 10 hours) a week to work on a foundry. So, gl to all that enter.

    I think you might be too strict with yourself in this case. Most Authors have a handful of unfinished maps and story pieces sitting on their account. I know I advise new Authors never to delete something they feel they want to abandon because you never know when that map that was a failure for that quest about Orcs ends up being great for an Icewind Dale adventure, for example. If you never published the foundry, I think it would be ok.
    Find me in game with @DoctorBadger
    (Un)Academic Field Work Foundry Campaign: NWS-DAPZB2CTZ
  • reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I agree, if it hasn't been published then I think it's okay to use it. The idea is that it can't have previous plays and reviews from before because then it would be unfair to others who started a new one.
    2e2qwj6.jpg
  • apocrs1980apocrs1980 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Silverstars Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I have published it but it was only to do live tests on the maps such as combat balance, holes in the maps where I didn't want people going, and to assure timer events were working properly, however that being said it's not finished or viable for playing and rating, in fact it has no plays nor stars as I made it uncompilable on purpose for the before mentioned reasons. I think if I read it right he said it could not be started AND finished before the contest start date, "and" being the key word, so I will submit it anyways if it's done before August 6th and let the judges decide I guess :P thanks melinden.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The Cragsteep Crypt - BETA
    Ravenloft
    Look [email protected] or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
  • grimahgrimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    apocrs1980 wrote: »
    I have published it but it was only to do live tests on the maps such as combat balance, holes in the maps where I didn't want people going, and to assure timer events were working properly, however that being said it's not finished or viable for playing and rating, in fact it has no plays nor stars as I made it uncompilable on purpose for the before mentioned reasons. I think if I read it right he said it could not be started AND finished before the contest start date, "and" being the key word, so I will submit it anyways if it's done before August 6th and let the judges decide I guess :P thanks melinden.

    you could always duplicate it. Maybe that would be aloud.

    Don't think its possible to duplicate a current popular one and just change the enemies to cult of the dragon though.
    Creator of the featured survival horror foundry: "The Silence of Haydenwick" Video Review
    and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
  • wininoidwininoid Member Posts: 534 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Honestly, I would be perfectly happy with Cryptic/PWE judging the contest and handing out the 1st/2nd/3rd place entries. Then have a "Community Favorite" category as well decided by plays/rating ratio. In the previous contests I did, it was just community winner, but there was no reward that had any cash value. This contest has rewards with real value, so it seems more prone to people gaming the system to win. Better to leave the big rewards to impartial judges.

    But I'm in it for the fun of a creative prompt and to have some fun content that all fits a theme, so I'm not going to stress one way or the other. :)
  • harlemhailharlemhail Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Fists of the Dragon
    NW-DI6D5XF7Q
  • dragoness10dragoness10 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 780 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    " I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep

    "Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."

    "Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
  • audentiaaudentia Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    wininoid wrote: »
    ..have a "Community Favorite" category as well decided by plays/rating ratio.. no reward that had any cash value...

    I agree with everyone voicing concerns over how this is to be judged. I appreciate that it makes it an easier administration task, but it seems obvious to me that you shouldn't allow the community to decide who wins contests, especially so with large-value prizes. It will be abused; people can't help but take advantage if you allow it. As already mentioned, you could coerce your friends to vote your entry up and, for those with less wholesome morals, mark everyone else's down.

    If you want this contest to attest to the creative power of this community and to celebrate a better standard of Foundry then you have to promote and reward these qualities, rather than who has the largest social network.
  • reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    audentia wrote: »
    I agree with everyone voicing concerns over how this is to be judged. I appreciate that it makes it an easier administration task, but it seems obvious to me that you shouldn't allow the community to decide who wins contests, especially so with large-value prizes. It will be abused; people can't help but take advantage if you allow it. As already mentioned, you could coerce your friends to vote your entry up and, for those with less wholesome morals, mark everyone else's down.

    If you want this contest to attest to the creative power of this community and to celebrate a better standard of Foundry then you have to promote and reward these qualities, rather than who has the largest social network.

    I completely agree with this.
    Also I don't know if it was mentioned but the winner(s) should get their quests featured, I think :)
    2e2qwj6.jpg
  • eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    reiwulf wrote: »
    Also I don't know if it was mentioned but the winner(s) should get their quests featured, I think :)

    I'm sure it would be "featured" in the game news, but actually featured in-game would be awesome as well!
  • grimahgrimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I dont have an issue with public voting, because everyone is going to get 1 stars and 5 stars etc. but I understand how difficult it is to get the ball rolling, you either get it going or it disappears. Only way they could remedy this is by making a new tab, (featuring all of them will just annoy players as they will have to shift through them (they don't like doing that which is why featured ones get so many more plays).

    Could have cryptic picking winners, but then you have only one/few people making that tough decision.

    Don't see any other way they could do it realistically now. because... the contest has started, they cant just go changing rules willy nilly mid swing.
    Creator of the featured survival horror foundry: "The Silence of Haydenwick" Video Review
    and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
  • docsc00terdocsc00ter Member Posts: 285 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I suppose it was inevitable...

    My newest Foundry adventure, created for the Cult of the Dragon contest, was enjoying a handful of initial play-thru's and generating some very encouraging 5-star ratings and reviews.

    Then came a 2-star rating with no review (which means I can't see who left it or why).

    Then there was the inevitable 1-star rating. This time the player left a review, which I always appreciate. However, their comment mentioned that they were stuck and unable to move at the completion of the adventure, and that the quest is "not ready for prime time." Fair enough. Accepting criticism is part of being a Foundry Author, and I realize there will always be people who dislike our work for whatever reason.

    However... if a player is stuck and unable to move, and thus unable to talk to the final NPC or travel to the next map, how could they possibly complete the adventure? And if they can't complete the adventure, how can they leave a review and rating?

    Now, this player may have a legitimate complaint that was simply poorly described, and I hope they will offer more information so that I could address whatever problem they encountered.

    But it leads to a serious concern with the new Cult of the Dragon Foundry Contest. Simply put, it's not only possible for Authors to gather friends to play through quests and help boost ratings (in fact, the contest seems designed to encourage this, and I think it's fine), but it's also possible for players to intentionally lower a quest's rating by just throwing 1 or 2-star reviews at it without leaving any comments. Afraid someone else's quest is doing better in the contest? Run it and give it a 1-star rating. Get your friends to do the same. If you don't leave remarks, you can do it anonymously.

    I really hope I'm not giving anyone any ideas here... :(

    Of course, if another Author in the contest were to do this and leave a remark, we could all see it and know what's going on. (And, hopefully, if Cryptic were to determine that they were intentionally sabatoging someone else's chances in the contest, they could take disciplinary action. Though how you can punish someone for something as subjective as a Foundry review is beyond me...) But the potential for anonymous abuse and skewing of the contest results concerns me.

    I would like to think that no Author would ever do something like that. Frankly, we should all be delighted that Cryptic is shinging a spotlight on the Foundry and offering a contest that will entice more players to give it a try and create adventures for us. Way to go Cryptic! (And such prizes, too! Whoohoo!) But I'm old enough and experienced enough to know that sometimes there are some less ethical people out there who would do anything to win, especially when the prizes are so good.

    (I'm not saying that's the case with the 1-star review I received, by the way. Frankly, I don't understand their complaint. Maybe they just really hated it. I'm simply posting this because it brings to light a potential problem that's been created with this contest.)

    Thanks for listening.
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited July 2014
    Unfortunately that was a concern I had when I saw the way the winners would be determined.

    Personally I would rather see maybe the top ten or more quests be put into a forum poll this way every account can only vote once.

    And if that was done I think getting a unique Forum Title (or In Game Title) would be an awesome consolation prize for being in the top votings...

    But we would have to convince Akromatik that is the right way to go. ;)
  • grimahgrimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    docsc00ter wrote: »
    But it leads to a serious concern with the new Cult of the Dragon Foundry Contest. Simply put, it's not only possible for Authors to gather friends to play through quests and help boost ratings (in fact, the contest seems designed to encourage this, and I think it's fine), but it's also possible for players to intentionally lower a quest's rating by just throwing 1 or 2-star reviews at it without leaving any comments. Afraid someone else's quest is doing better in the contest? Run it and give it a 1-star rating. Get your friends to do the same. If you don't leave remarks, you can do it anonymously.

    I saw this coming, and the sad thing is, its going to be perfectly individuals to go voting ones, but what is shocking is if someone gets their friends to do the same. And there is bound to be some group like that which is really pathetic.

    But the way i see it, the better authors (more established ones) have a better chance to get more plays (though foundry traffic is pretty low right now). And I can't imagine a popular author would even dare ask other people to play and 1star other maps, it's just embarassing, because i know authors have pride in their work/abilities.

    Also, only a moron would ask friends to go play 20-30 foundry maps to downvote, it is far more efficient to focus getting them to ask their friends to play your foundry instead.
    Creator of the featured survival horror foundry: "The Silence of Haydenwick" Video Review
    and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
  • orangefireeorangefiree Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,148 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    docsc00ter wrote: »
    I suppose it was inevitable...

    My newest Foundry adventure, created for the Cult of the Dragon contest, was enjoying a handful of initial play-thru's and generating some very encouraging 5-star ratings and reviews.

    Then came a 2-star rating with no review (which means I can't see who left it or why).

    Then there was the inevitable 1-star rating. This time the player left a review, which I always appreciate. However, their comment mentioned that they were stuck and unable to move at the completion of the adventure, and that the quest is "not ready for prime time." Fair enough. Accepting criticism is part of being a Foundry Author, and I realize there will always be people who dislike our work for whatever reason.

    However... if a player is stuck and unable to move, and thus unable to talk to the final NPC or travel to the next map, how could they possibly complete the adventure? And if they can't complete the adventure, how can they leave a review and rating?

    Now, this player may have a legitimate complaint that was simply poorly described, and I hope they will offer more information so that I could address whatever problem they encountered.

    But it leads to a serious concern with the new Cult of the Dragon Foundry Contest. Simply put, it's not only possible for Authors to gather friends to play through quests and help boost ratings (in fact, the contest seems designed to encourage this, and I think it's fine), but it's also possible for players to intentionally lower a quest's rating by just throwing 1 or 2-star reviews at it without leaving any comments. Afraid someone else's quest is doing better in the contest? Run it and give it a 1-star rating. Get your friends to do the same. If you don't leave remarks, you can do it anonymously.

    I really hope I'm not giving anyone any ideas here... :(

    Of course, if another Author in the contest were to do this and leave a remark, we could all see it and know what's going on. (And, hopefully, if Cryptic were to determine that they were intentionally sabatoging someone else's chances in the contest, they could take disciplinary action. Though how you can punish someone for something as subjective as a Foundry review is beyond me...) But the potential for anonymous abuse and skewing of the contest results concerns me.

    I would like to think that no Author would ever do something like that. Frankly, we should all be delighted that Cryptic is shinging a spotlight on the Foundry and offering a contest that will entice more players to give it a try and create adventures for us. Way to go Cryptic! (And such prizes, too! Whoohoo!) But I'm old enough and experienced enough to know that sometimes there are some less ethical people out there who would do anything to win, especially when the prizes are so good.

    (I'm not saying that's the case with the 1-star review I received, by the way. Frankly, I don't understand their complaint. Maybe they just really hated it. I'm simply posting this because it brings to light a potential problem that's been created with this contest.)

    Thanks for listening.

    I've been worried about that the moment I saw they were letting players have a say in who wins.

    For that rating though, I'm going to guess they had the same thing at the end that I had, where the end battle got stuck offscreen. My recommendation would be to, in test only, add some way to the timer room, (A portal should work in this case) and go quickly one hit all the bosses with your foundry powers and investigate the timer room to see what is going on. I had a similar issue (Although not as severe) with my in progress contest entry where the boss fight timer mobs weren't working. It helped to be able to see what the timers where doing, and I actually managed to get the timer portion working.
    Neverwinter players are stubborn things....until you strip them down to bone. (Cursed players, my flowers, MINE!) Oh how I plotted their demise.
  • eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Yeah, you've got yo be very careful w/timers. Mobs can "jump/teleport" past 15' (or higher) walls.
  • wininoidwininoid Member Posts: 534 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I'm not saying the voting method is good, BUT I'm looking at it this way...I'm making a quest and it will get enough plays to get it out of beta and be daily eligible with much less effort than it usually takes. The devs/PWE folks will play these quests and they will see if you did an outstanding job. That will help down the road when they are looking for quests to feature. I didn't get in the top 3 of the contest they ran in beta, but after those 3 quests had their time being featured, my quest got featured.

    So, do it for the fun of doing it. Do it for the easy exposure, and do it for getting devs/PWE to take a look at your quest. Don't do it for the prizes. If you really want the prizes, it is much more efficient to spend time working outside of game and spend cash.
  • boomba66boomba66 Member Posts: 221 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    I am surprised how many entries the contest is getting its going to honestly make it tough for the truly best deserving quest to get the plays to balance out who has the top. I mean could one player release there module with one day o go have his or her 100 guild members all run through it quickly together and all five star a real horrible module?

    I mean We have all witnessed the 70 play all five star "Accomplishment" foundries that literally are just clicking on one box. I hope there is some way to do away with such manipulation of the voting process.

    Anyway I love that the foundry is getting some very cool attention, I know that it has brought many of the mod creators back.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • docsc00terdocsc00ter Member Posts: 285 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    By the way, just to be clear, I didn't post about the 1-star rating I received because I didn't like the rating. Presumably the guy ran into a legitimate problem that I want to address. (And, as best as I can tell, have resolved completely. Back when the first couple of people played it and mentioned "timer" issues in the final fight, I was relying on some off-screen critters to plunge to their deaths. No longer. Those off-screen critters now appear in a small room with nearly 60 hard-level guards who slaughter them so fast I can barely see it happen. Heh... Seems to have cleared up any "timer" issues...)

    The real reason I posted my concerns was the realization of how much damage someone could do by intentionally posting low ratings to sabotage others in the contest. Perhaps Cryptic has thought this through and will be keeping tabs on sudden rushes of 1-stars moving from quest to quest, for example. I don't know. But I figured it's a concern worth raising...
  • mrgiggles651mrgiggles651 Member Posts: 790 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Anonymous downvoting via 1 star ratings has happened since forever.
    I wasted five million AD promoting the Foundry.
  • docsc00terdocsc00ter Member Posts: 285 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Anonymous downvoting via 1 star ratings has happened since forever.

    Yes, but as part of a contest? With valuable rewards at stake?

    I guess it's just a sad truth, eh? Oh well. At least we're getting a whole bunch of new Foundry adventures to enjoy, and I'm glad every time I read about someone Authoring their first adventure as part of this contest. :)
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