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Master of Flame Help.
ggunch
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 30
In light of the recent release of information on upcoming possible changes to CW I have decided to take one of my CW's and try to fool around with the MoF side. That being said I have never played with it and havent a clue what I am doing. I tried to look up some recent info on MoF builds to get an idea of how to go about setting it up and I cannot find anything up to date or at least post Mod 3. Would one of you be so kind as to point me in the right direction or maybe even post a Mod 3 MoF build so I can see what I should be focusing on. Thank you ahead of time.
Post edited by ggunch on
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The Master of Flame is actually getting buffed by these changes. Scortching Burst will do more damage, Fanning the Flames will too, but it will have a longer recast time.
Fanning the Flame and Scortching Burst also should work with ArP now.
Being that I was already wiping most geared Spellstorms in Kessel Skirmish prior to this, I suspect it will do even more.
It is hard at this point to give you a direction until I know how things will shake out.
But I can tell you at this time that unless you go with the Renegade Path you will probably be alright as a Master of Flame and relatively unaffected by the changes. I tended to use Steal Time and Shards in Conjunction with Conduit of Ice as it was a decent DoT, but an excellent Debuff to all targets FtF Cast was on, thus getting around the ArP not working. But they're removing the Debuff and adding the Arp so its a push anyway. You potentially could keep CoI as an additional DoT to stack with Fanning the Flame, but the Assailing Force feat will pretty much be useless at this point.
I would still stick to the Thaum Path as it will give you the most benefit for your Master of Flame even after the changes from what I can see.
Its Spellstorms that are getting nerfed into the ground presently unless the devs reverse themselves (which they really should), not MoF we'll likely be just fine.
MoFs are pretty much untouched except for the changes in the Tree and to Shards (shocking since this is this is the Capstone feat on the tree, and highest level spell that will now likely do less damage than some of the 1st level newbie spells). The Renegade Tree though just isn't going to give you that much anymore.
And as it goes right now Shards on the preview is pathetic. I ran my CW on live through several fights in IWD then ran him on Preview through the same fights and Shards on live were hitting for an average of 9 - 11k were as on preview they were hitting for 3 -5k. Huge difference.
It is a good guide.
In a general sense as an MoF you're going to need to build around your AoE Smolder and Fanning the Flame.
Meaning you're going to need to run Fanning the Flame on the Tab key so its an AoE. Icy Terrain will still be relatively useless as you won't be able to stack chill on it for the Freeze, and since its stationary and the mobs are mobile, Conduit of Ice will be the better choice as it will stick to the mobs as they run around no matter where they go. And Icy Terrain takes 6 ticks to even freeze anything.
So its unlikely the MoF will get much out of the Oppressor path at all as chill stacking is kinda useless on this paragon Path since you have to keep Fanning the Flame Tabbed. Likely given the way things are shaking out you'll have to use Elemental Empowerment on the Thaum Tree. Which will likely make you an incredibly good AoE damager and far greater than the Spellstorm Path... the former thunder and lightning mage that's about to be turned into a half Azzed Ice Mage
Spellstorm won't even be able to remotely compete at that point.
So I would no longer waste your time with that path.
Its unfortunate they are going to ruin the Spellstorm this way... but if you continue to play the game... then Master of Flame is the only way to go. And Spellstorm will be pretty worthless at that point, as even with the Oppressor Path the Spellstorm won't even be slightly on par, the Master of Flame will not be able to get use out of the Oppressor Path as it has to keep Fanning the Flames Tabbed so cannot make use out of the Chill Stacking anyway.
I'd experiment with the Thaum Tree for Master of Flame as its likely to give you the most benefit.
Definitely feat Drifting Embers as it goes off all the time now with just about every spell.
I haven't tested Thaum yet as some of the feats are bugged or not working, but I wouldn't agree that MoF gets nothing from the new Oppressor tree at all.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Steal Time hits for about 4500 on a 7600 power character. At least according to my testing, hardly a "truck".
Icy Terrain + CoI fails compared to the bread and butter of a Master of Flame FtF + CoI... ergo... Fanning the Flame can only be used as an AoE if you put it on tab...
And trust me, its a hell of a lot more damaging than either CoI OR Icy Terrain and its stacks with Smolder too...
So rather than taking two spells to do the damage of one, just grab something else and stack it with FtF... and there's not even a comparison.
But that's what happens when you try the half azzed method rather than the real deal. Making the Icy Terrain/CoI trick pretty much redundant on the MoF and the Oppressor path a lesser choice, as you lose your Bread and Butter spell as an MoF, ergo... using two spells to do the job of one spell will always been the worse of the two options... unless you just like to screw around.
Oppressor will not benefit the MoF... and the Spellstorm will be completely non competetive at this point... even with it.
But as I said, once the Mod 4 Thaum feats are fixed and that tree can be properly tested it will quite likely prove to be higher DPS for MoF. Just a lot less control.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Lol MoF's been able to do that forever.
And I didn't use oppressor to do that... it was completely redundant. I'm not seeing MoFs getting any real benefit from that one other than slight... (only if you're really low geared) and likely never will. Thaum will likely remain the MoF best choice whether they get it working or not.
Spellstorms at this point are completely pointless now, and an obvious lesser choice even with an Oppressor build. I can easily see a mass exodus from this Paragon path, its quite literally been nerfed into a completely lesser path in every way shape and form.
I haven't tested the new Thaum tree as currently it's broken. It will certainly be higher DPS but less control. For anyone who wants to play an actual Control Wizard the new Oppressor path is viable with MoF.
I haven't done any Spellstorm testing so I can't comment on your assessment, and I already considered it less appealing than MoF anyway. The nerfs to EotS and Sudden Storm certainly looks like a killer though.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Yeah I switched to MoF for Mod 3, I was running testing on it on Preview and just loved the thing. I was highly impressed.
Its likely MoF won't suffer in any way really. Oppressor just isn't going to work unless you're a Chill stacker, and we're not going to be able to do that as we keep FtF on tab so chill stacking is pretty useless... and Icy Terrain is such an underpowered spell its not even worth bothering with in the first place.
But even with my testing on the completely broken Thaum path there's little to no change.
Either way it won't matter much...
Unless they SERIOUSLY roll back the nerfs on Spellstorms I'll be leaving the game anyway as I want nothing to do with destroying an entire paragon path and don't even want to be associated with the people who do that in any form. And I am unlikely to ever play a Spellstorm again regardless of what they do as I enjoy MoF too much.
But I watched this happen a year ago to the class, I have no wish want or desire to watch it happen again... and solve nothing like usual. My views of cryptic have been steadily dropping now over these as they continue to create their own problems over and over with these...
I have done everything I can to speak out against this and directly presented facts concerning it... yet another useless irrelevent Nerf that destroys another class (or in this case two trees and a Paragon) for nothing.
I'd be willing to bet that they have Warlock slated in to pick up from spellstorm/renegade which wouldn't be a problem if you could change class in this game but is a huge problem when you cannot , I have spent more than a year building up my main character , a spellstorm renegade , buying companions and spent a fortune leveling artifacts to see this happen ,it's like a punch to the gut , you are a rare person trying to fight the corner of a build other than your own , thanks .
Here's the thread I made regarding a Renegade MoF build, but it will be outdated as soon as mod 4 drops so keep that in mind.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?632871-The-RNG-PvE-Wizard-Renegade-Master-of-Flame
So MoF are neither the Thaum tree nor the Renegade tree and have always been Oppressor? I think we will all suffer by varying amounts, but MoF is still losing all the same feats. (I actually generally like the changes. Oppressive Force needs to be nerfed like crazy, but I don't think they see what it's capable of or if they are simply don't care how OP it is.)
Icy Terrain is literally one of the mandatory powers to use as a MoF if you know what you're doing. It is absolutely clear that you never gave it a real try. My guess is someone told you it was bad, which is somewhat true for Thaum, and you just ran with it unthinkingly.
You might be unaware of the target cap on CoI which is 5 targets per tick. Icy Terrain has no target cap at all. Combined with it's ability to proc a critical smolder on infinite add's makes it an absolute beast in Smolder damage (which is most of it's damage, by the way, as Smolder crits will do more than the icy terrain crits).
It's less damage per tick for the Encounter itself, but a functionally unlimited amount of them (and the double tick from IT and Smolder) completely negates that downside.
Trust me when I tell you that infinity is a big enough increase from 5 to justify changing it out; and if you don't believe me try it out in an actual boss fight or large scale encounter. You'll change your mind very quickly once just one of them crits.
CoI will freeze zero things in one cast on or off tab.
CoI disappears if the target dies.
Icy Terrain in either an encounter slot or tab will freeze 8 billion add's.
Icy Terrain doesn't ever go away. (Duration longer than it's CD)
Icy Terrain scales better in damage with more add's. (I.E. Virtually every dungeon.)
Simple math. CoI is worse in literally every way except the range you can cast it at. Since that's virtually a non-factor if you're using Shard and Steal Time, which everyone is, then it's just not worth using; unless you get that 15% Thaum debuff for alpha/bosses or are fighting 5 or less grouped adds.
CoI was always a bad spell outside of the thaum end cap. This of course assumes you pull more than one group at a time but I'm sure a pro player like you doesn't muck about with that slow nonsense right?
If I was going to be totally honest, they shouldn't give any class an infinite target cap ability that does any damage including Icy Terrain. Smoke Bomb needs to be the model for any power without target caps. MoF has proven that without a doubt. All of the above is true on test at the moment, but really nothing is set in stone yet.
I have been trying to use this spell for a frigging year, You've been telling me this over and over... so I build it in... run out, try it... and its a total failure. Its not even close to effective.
CoI however has been incredibly effective and sticks to the mobs.
Target Limits don't matter a whopping ounce when its only doing 400 damage per tick and takes a FULL 6 ticks to freeze anything.
So mobs are running all over the place and never stay on the Ice Patch. The ONLY place I can figure this thing even working on live is in some remote dungeon where there's tight quarters and they can't run off the patch before the ticks actually Freeze them as an MoF. But the damage is so incredibly subpar... I do not know why you're so stuck to this spell, its been an absolute failure everywhere and anywhere I've tried it with only a very few exceptions.
When testing on Preview, it doesn't freeze anything any faster... and yeah the damage is about still about 400 per tick.
Yeah CoI on Live for me by the way is doing about 800-1000 per tick. Combined with FtF and Scortching its not just a minor difference its HUGE...
"Manditory" for an MoF to be "effective" is highly... HIGHLY questionable assertion. Its almost like you've never used any other Encounter Powers in the CW Arsenal, because this one is quite frankly one of worse and lowest damaging AND control options in the bunch of them.
So... if this was the method for "balancing" CW damage... then apparently your Idea of "high powered" is 400 damage per tick.
Which is even more questionable...
For my CW because he has high lifesteal, i have opted out sudden storm for icy terrain because i can just stand in the middle of a gizzilion mobs and drop icy terrain, shoot off shard/steal time and oppressive and get the most out of my ticks without dying, everything will be either prone/stun/dazed or frozen.
Icy terrain has good damage, because of its low cooldown. Its not the hardest hitting, but its not weak either.
Icy terrain is BAD if you do not/can not stand within melee range.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
If that isn't bar none better than CoI w/o the Thaum end cap I don't know what to tell you. Any other class would cream themselves to have an encounter half as useful as Icy Terrain.
I literally do not know how anyone could look at it objectively and not see how utterly powerful IT is for a MoF build. As Grimah also pointed out, it's even stronger when you consider high life steal that every CW slots.
I should also note that these numbers are from having a Terror enchantment slotted, not a Vorpal.
Assuming that isn't a crit, it's still doing 4000 damage per second with ten adds. This is exactly what I mean by it scales better with more targets. Each tick add's more slow to them as well. Easier to kite them then. Even if there are 400 of them, they will never catch you after the first tick unless you screw up. Virtually nothing is immune to slow.
What if there are 20 add's? Pirate King end boss? Spellplague end boss? The two starter bosses in Frozen Heart?
Yeah.
Is there any CW spec that can stay far enough away from their target that Icy Terrain isn't useful? IT has a pretty big AoE; and if you're already using Steal Time you're basically in range for Icy Terrain.
Don't forget that IT has a gradual slow effect through Chill that makes it perfect for easy kiting around the edges of IT as things freeze. Circle strafe people!
If people don't slot Icy Terrain it's really not the end of my world but saying it's useless and not putting points into it is simply foolish for such a useful spell. (I would skip it on a SS, but not as MoF. It's the Smolder effect and target cap that really makes this spell an outlier in usefulness.)
This is exactly what I do. You forgot the FtF on the boss just after Oppressive Force, but I'd bet that's when you throw it. ^_^
Your Icy Terrain... CRITS... for almost 1000 damage per tick... yeah that's about ONE Magic Missile hit for me...
My CoI.... CRITS for about 2000-2500 damage per tick... that kind of puts that to shame.
Throw another CRIT... on my Smolder and FtF and I'm generally looking at about at MINIMUM a good 5,000-10,000 ... per tick on a Crit with them...
Your Icy Terrain combo isn't even close my friend... not even close... its the weakest spell in the arsenal... and still takes 6 ticks to freeze anything.
No wonder you thought the MoF was underpowered compared to Spellstorms....
Except in an AoE. Every second. That slows them. Over and over again. Not counting Smolder.
I really think that target caps and actual DPS are concept's that you just can't understand. That's been a consistent misunderstanding you have about this game in every thread, so I guess I should just save my breath.
You can't be taught until you finally just realize it for yourself. If you've been playing as long as you claim, you should have figured it out by now. Literally everyone else has that's been around that long.
Other people will see the logic in what I've said.
Silverquick, if you could please post some parse results as well, that would be awesome. You sound like you know what you are doing but I have read several of your posts and I do not agree with everything.
Well honestly I haven't done much since the announced nerfs, I went over to Preview to test the changes, but have not gone back on Live other than once to take care of some final guild related matters.
As I fully intend to keep to my word, not to play unless these changes are reversed.
But for the record.... I built MoF around Icewind Dale and the HEs, which was where I attempted to utilize Icy Terrain as an MoF... it was an utter failure. The mobs were far too mobile, you couldn't keep them on the ice patch, and they hit so hard you'd be dead in one round meaning it was a death sentence there.
...and once that hit, I haven't gone back to the Dungeons in some time, so honestly I don't have a comparison there and I am way overpowered for just about every other dungeon with perhaps the exception of VT and perhaps MC. I did do Karrandax with a friend, but mobs were so weak they died before anything could even tick down.
He was a 18k Spellstorm with 9k Power I was a 16.8k MoF with 7600 power so things died so fast DoTs weren't even a factor, could not get accurate test from that.
Id say any gs above 15k is more about whoever gets the first hit with shard and etc though. Yeah, those IwD mobs sure dont wait around In your icy terrain. I still find the skill very useful in almost all situations. For an undergeared player the control is awesome when you combo it with coi tab.
Im sorry to hear about your frustrations with mod4 changes. I understand since they are essentially changing the playstyle of the entire class, and removing damage and debuffs that make the cw a team player.
If they keep the mod4 changes as is, im going with oppressor. I really like being able to buff my team and oppressor has that in preview. I build my cw to be an oppressor before mod1 but quickly realized that it was not suitable for the gameplay at the time (well shield popping and etc tp bump mobs off could be done by any spec at the time)
But I think its quite unfair of them to just change the mechanics of a class that people have invested time, money and effort in. (they could have just reduced damage and etc, people rolled wizard because it was rhe only damage dealing spell caster in the game at the time. Also, the current cw has been this way for so long that its kind of false advertising to go and change the class like this too.)
BlackberryCheesecake CW
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
CheeseCake House
Honestly I really don't think its going to be better for low geared players either.
I will grant you what you say is true about 15k or higher GS and dungeons, and perhaps that's why Spacejew has such a hard time understanding how powerful the MoF really is...
I was being generous about the minimum 5-10k per tick DoT crit stacking at my gear score on Live. In reality at that gear score stacking a full suite of FtF + CoI + Smolder stack is wayyyy more than any Icy Terrain + CoI combo.
For the record here, at that gear score and power level My FtF is critting for upwards of 15k... (and not 15k total)... I'm talking first hit so... 15k on the first tick, 14k on the second tick, etc... then the sidecar damage on the rest.
At a Max crit with the FtF on tab I'm looking at.... 3k from Coi, 2k from Smolder, 15k per tick from FtF, for around 20k damage per tick.
And the Icy Terrain +Coi isn't even close.
Its about like doing a continuous Shard hit for 5 ticks.
And there's no way in hell any Spellstorm post nerf is even going to come close to that. Which basically ruins that entire Paragon path, because you can still do the same things with an MoF with the Icy Terrain +CoI Freeze method if you want to... but its no comparison.
The Nerfs essentially completely wreck the Spellstorm Paragon path.
My Shards... on a non-crit does about 7200 damage with a 13 second recast... that's petty change.... its about 533 damage per second. On Preview its about 2600 damage with a 13 second recast for bout 200 damage per second...
That one, though it affects me to a minor degree, is going to completely crush Spellstorm damage into the ground when combined with the Sudden Storm nerf.
They're just a broken paragon on Preview that is completely non competitive.
I wouldn't toss dirt on the grave of the spellstorm path yet. There are still ways. They just don't at all resemble the "Conduit of Ice+Steal time procing Eye of the Storm followed by the mega-boom-stick of Sudden Storm+Shard of Avalanche" combination that makes sweet, sweet music right now.