1. PotB for mutual stealth destruction.
2. CoS face-off for mutual attrition.
3. Good luck landing DF while the WK runs, dodges, and keeps throwing Disheartening Strike from range.
Again, I don't deny some of the best TRs are truly masterful in the use of DF, but I'm inclined to think even that has limits. Especially since the use of PotB has been brought back to light and standardized after the IS nerf, a TR vs TR fight nowadays usually start from the moment both sides lose stealth.
WK permas have a natural advantage over MIs in the strength of all ranged attacks, not to mention has a second spammable ranged at-will which can be used after both sides lose CoS charges -- this means the WK side has a gun-vs-knife range advantage, as well as even a faster AP point build up advantage, since you don't earn any AP with DF that doesn't connect. In a fight of attrition the WK side actually holds the advantage here.
Most of the best TRs are still avidly MI, and of course, I can't beat any one of them since they are not only better players, but way better equipped than me with at least a 5k HP difference from the start. But against similar skill level, WKs have come a long way since the days where nobody ever used it. Most WK builds went obsolete when some of the mod3 changes and nerfs hit, but the builds using the same build principles as perma or semi-perma MIs still work reasonably well.
looks like u never played this game mate.
no wk uses or should use dualist flury so even if u land courage breaker what then i can dodge encounter and have itc.
Actually, I've played it long enough to realize (yet again) that there's this thing called "in-combat power switching", so I can simply switch one of my at-wills to DF when I am expecting the AP point to fill up to 100% in maybe the next 10 seconds. So use CB, use DF to my heart's content, and then simply restealth and switch the power out back to CoS. Funny that's never crossed your mind.
Besides, ITC doesn't break CB, and lasts only half as long as CB. By the time the third DF hits ITC is either over and receives full damage of the 3rd attack, and it will still apply the extra Bilethorn ticks. As it is actually, once CB is hit a WK doesn't even need to hit DF. He can just stay around 15ft distance and pucker with knives while the MI with a DF/CoS setup doesn't have anything to attack with while he is slowed down and unable to move.
u on other hand have to eat my 2 df
Again, that's assuming the MI lands the CB first. Unfortunately, WKs build AP faster.
Look, I'm not saying MI DF/CoS builds are outdated or obsolete or anything. Most good TRs still do very well with it because in the first place, it's a very powerful build. But that doesn't mean its perfect, nor does it mean WKs can never gain any kind of upperhand. It basically comes down to skill level, and WK builds have also developed over the years. It may not be well to simply underestimate, or dismiss it with past information -- that's all I'm saying.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
top trs normaly dont get caught in full df .
but just a scratch from third strike makes huge difference in later fight coz there goes your stealth
See there's that strange logic again. In these sort of thought experiments, you assign the "top TRs" on one end, and naturally assume they will evade every attempt from the other guy, while for some reason you assign a clearly lower skill level on the other end, and then assume every attempt the "top TRs" will do will always work.
Why is that? Shouldn't you be comparing similar skill levels?
top trs jump in df constantly waisting no time while wk just run around doing nothing
*shrug* the people that get constantly hit by 1.5k DHS attacks a pop while they struggle to chase down a WK constantly moving out of DF reach, certainly don't seem to think so.
You assume the WK guy will always be in DF range, but why would the WK always be in DF jump attack range when he knows he's got a ranged-attack advantage on the MI??
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
See there's that strange logic again. In these sort of thought experiments, you assign the "top TRs" on one end, and naturally assume they will evade every attempt from the other guy, while for some reason you assign a clearly lower skill level on the other end, and then assume every attempt the "top TRs" will do will always work.
Why is that? Shouldn't you be comparing similar skill levels?
*shrug* the people that get constantly hit by 1.5k DHS attacks a pop while they struggle to chase down a WK constantly moving out of DF reach, certainly don't seem to think so.
You assume the WK guy will always be in DF range, but why would the WK always be in DF jump attack range when he knows he's got a ranged-attack advantage on the MI??
you are assuming that top trs use pob which just show u dont play much.
its been very long since i saw pob tr.
most use bait and thats very fast ap gain plus they are stealthed,itc all the time.
i played against very good perma wk pob ss itc daily spam type
and while they are much tougher then combat tr its nothing that same skill mi cant handle easy.
range attack means nothing if u want to hold cap.
i can jump whole lenght of the cap.
but outside i dont care what happens
you are assuming that top trs use pob which just show u dont play much.
its been very long since i saw pob tr.
most use bait and thats very fast ap gain plus they are stealthed,itc all the time.
i played against very good perma wk pob ss itc daily spam type
and while they are much tougher then combat tr its nothing that same skill mi cant handle easy.
range attack means nothing if u want to hold cap.
i can jump whole lenght of the cap.
but outside i dont care what happens
With the last highlighted part of your post, you've actually admitted the limit of the semi-perma MIs stretch only as far as the node -- because once the chains and restrictions of holding/contesting the node is off, then there's nothing that keeps your opponent within your DF range. The TRs using DF needs an outside tactical/strategical condition that has nothing to do with the class stat/spec/capabilities, to make it viable. Once that condition is gone, so is the viability. This is most often and easily, clearly seen in open PvP.
It is also exactly what I've said. You get to hit DF because most people are limited to the node in Domination, and has no choice but to willingly risk the dangers of DF. Hence, in terms of Domination objectives you have a very good chance to land DFs on your target - I'll give you that.
But in 1vs1 terms, on plain ground, with no node to "light up" and tell you of whether your opponent TR is within the circle or not, and freedom of movement ensured, you're not landing a DF on another TR, ever -- assuming you aren't already almost or full AP to land that CB. You can try the "from stealth, jump in random directions in hopes of snagging him once", but you'll find out that doing that on open ground with a wide space is totally different from doing it within the small node circle.
Also, TR fights comes down to a stealth-peeling fight, and someone not using PotB against a TR that does starts off from a massive disadvantage -- especially if we're talking about nodes, in which case PotB almost covers the entire node radius. Perhaps you'd be able to overcome that disadvantage by outdamaging the other guy -- but how are you going to outdamage him when he keeps attacking you from a distance where you can't retaliate?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Also, TR fights comes down to a stealth-peeling fight, and someone not using PotB against a TR that does starts off from a massive disadvantage -- especially if we're talking about nodes, in which case PotB almost covers the entire node radius. Perhaps you'd be able to overcome that disadvantage by outdamaging the other guy -- but how are you going to outdamage him when he keeps attacking you from a distance where you can't retaliate?
I agree that TR fights come down to who gets out of Stealth first, but I have to have to disagree with PotB being a necessity in TR 1 vs. 1's. I never used PotB in my entire PVP life in NW because there wasn't much need to do so. I find the play style ruins the thrill of slowly killing inside the shadows, and it's FotM, an easy way to farm kills against the non-hardcore population. In a 1 vs. 1 against a TR, there are a multitude of easy ways to soak the PotB DoTs.
- Tenacious Concealment (90% less damage to Stealth)
- Impossible to Catch (for MIs, 5 seconds of damage soak)
- Dodge Roll (1.5 seconds of Immunity, we get up to a possible 3 consecutive dodges when feated)
- Bait and Switch (chance for PotB to hit BnS dummy since it can only strike 1 target at a time)
- Bloodbath (5 seconds of Immunity while rapidly striking the opponent, possibly stacking Bilethorn if it's in use)
PotB Rogues have a severe weakness, which is their need to go out of Stealth. They can ITC/SS and go back to Stealth, but its duration would be substantially reduced due to the amount of Bilethorn ticks that has been stacked on them while they were visible. Bait and Switch on the other hand gives us the upper hand in terms of Stealth, regardless if they stack Bile ticks on us. It's a useful meatshield and gives us free AP when struck.
For TRs who use feated Gloaming Cut, staying in Stealth is significantly easier (10% Stealth per hit is a lot), most specially when you have a target you can strike. PotB/SS/ITC TRs tend to be sitting ducks against BnS/SS/ITC TRs. But then again, striking a TR in Stealth with Gloaming Cut is also not that hard as long as you are able to predict their general direction, and it messes up Rogues real badly too if you can stack those BT ticks while they're in Stealth.
I've been relatively successful in PVP (though I'm not in any significant page of the boards anymore due not being able to play much, highest I got was page 4) without using PotB. The only class I've really had trouble with are Regen HRs and Roar GWFs, both of which however are builds I managed to adapt myself to, without the use of PotB, thanks to the opportunities I've had to 1 vs. 1 them in Domination. Roar is still a little troublesome though, but that's for another thread.
Having less troubles from the Roar GWF and Pathfinder lately. I learned that ITC/SS/SmokeBomb work wonders against the GWF if you can bring your own cooldowns to 15 seconds--simply ITC out of Roar (as soon as you are caught), facetank Takedown, deal some damage. Stealth while he is in Unstoppable and exit out with Smoke Bomb to daze him a few seconds, pew pew damage. Rinse repeat.
VS Pathfinder, Lurkers Assault, if used more for self healing, can be a makeshift Forest Meditation. Under desirable conditions, Stealth/Lurkers/SS heals me from 10% HP up to near three quarters of health.
On the matter of PotB, why must we lose street cred for using PotB just because it's flavor of the month? I've been using that since Beta. It's meh against other classes, but it's #1 in the anti-rogue toolkit. I vividly remember people going crazy that "Dude, he was using PotB! Ugh," coz frankly, this was one of our worst DPS powers. Nerfs killed all other powers, pushed us to (once unthinkable) using PotB as a META.
<< In agreement with Kweassa's point that DF is extremely effective due to the fact you are isolated and forced to contest a small circle called a PvP Domination Node. Without it, there are better, more reliable powers than DF. Heck, even SF can outdo DF in OPvP against extremely agile classes.
I'd also like to point out that Disheartening Strike is a mini PotB! Yes, those bleed ticks? Those tick for the better part of the duration of PotB, and since the MI TR exits stealth often, you always have an opportunity to stick him with a dagger.
I love having played WK before, and I don't regret a moment of it! ITC is MI's selling point. Range is WK's undeniable advantage. Let us, for a second, take contesting nodes out of the table. SS/ITC/PotB Master Infiltrator using Duelist Flurry is a magikarp in dry land against an SS/BnS/PotB Whisperknife sporting Disheartening Strike.
Advantageous Position << Remember this? Takes reduced damage from range after leaving stealth. WK wins a CoS showdown.
TL;DR
To try and close this argument, under perfect conditions, such as contesting a limited-sized node, DF is a force of nature. Otherwise, Disheartening Strike coupled with a P.Vorpal is the strongest PvP At-Will a TR has right now.
- Tenacious Concealment (90% less damage to Stealth)
tod, you probably saw me talking about this in other threads.
I still don't know why. I don't know if its a bug or simply intended, but for some reason, even with Tenacious Concealment PotB just rips out insanely huge chunks of stealth per hit.
I'm actually inclined to thinking that for some reason TC doesn't apply to PotB hits... there's simply no way only 1/10th of stealth damage can kill stealth that hard --- but as it is, PotB does that. Even one hit of PotB is so disastrous to your stealth that if two TRs meet and one uses PotB, then assuming equal skill and gear level there's no way the person without PotB can win the stealth-peeling contest.
...
Now granted, I've also often met PotB TRs when I myself was not using it, and also have often still come on top despite losing the stealth-peel fight --- but this is usually simply because PotB is quite spread widely. Average level TRs are way too confident about how they seemingly won the peel fight and are usually much too wreckless, hence opening up with wrong encounters and wasting CoS charges... and then they soon find out their advantage is gone, and until the next PotB recharge the tables are turned. This does happen, and I'm guessing a veteran player like you would not miss out on that opportunity.
But honestly speaking, as mentioned, if I may assume I am fighting someone who is on par with myself both in skill and gear, I honestly don't think I have any chance to win if the guy uses PotB and I don't. I need to at least match him in stealth-peeling, so ultimately both TRs are forced to fight without stealth, and thus force an attrition through ranged attacks while the other guy desperately tries to land DFs.
The reason why premades don't use PotB often, is simply because their standard tactics revolve around TRs going to the back node. Both sides' TRs usually go for the other, and thus, they hardly ever meet in combat in the first place. Most usually TRs are concerned about fighting GWFs or HRs who come to that node to clear it -- not fighting another TR in a 1vs1 situation, since that guy's in my own home node doing what I am doing here.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Result:
Toss out whirlwinds like your giving away free cheese along with your normal DPS you manage to land on them.
This is also good for giving HR's a run for their money... the top 1 % of HR's will always be a tough kill for anyone
Very nice suggestion! I rolled with Scoundrel Action Rush since a few days ago, get drunk on Lathander's Dew and enter PvP. Tactics would be a welcome addition to my tray if I had a third passive feat, but I'm very much attached to Skillful Infiltrator/Tenacious
First i would like to clear the air by saying i do not hate WKs. On the contrary I have two rogues, one is a MI and the other is a WK. If they EVER fix rogues for PVE WK scoundrels look like hella fun. With regards to a stealth based WK, i have to say MI does it much MUCH better. True permastealth is only achievable through gloaming cut. For PVE a WK can never do what a MI can.
I find it kind of odd that that people would compare WK to MI in a one v one fight. Personally I think in open world they have 0 advantage against each other and in node control MI wins. If i was going into a one v one fight vs a Wk in open world I would probably load SS, BnS, and Potb, with gloaming strike and COS as my at wills. Fact of the matter is ITC is not an especially useful anti-rogue encounter unless your trying to win a flurry contest. I would rate TR as the #1 hardest opponent to land a flurry against, both because they know how it works better than anyone and they are a highly mobile class.
Mostly however rogue against rogue stealth fights are pretty much an elaborate case of ring around the rosey. Why anyone would waste their time on such a thing (rogue against rogue period) is beyond me, ESPECIALLY in Opvp.
I also think you might be underestimating flurry a bit. The ONLY time it is impossible for me to land a flurry on someone is if they run directly away from me. Most people still don't have a solid grasp on how flurry works or how to use it effectively. High move speed translates directly in increased flurry range and I have very little trouble landing flurries on CWs or HRs. If your commited to killing me your going to risk getting hit with a flurry, of course you can simply run away and avoid my flurry all you want but cos range and DH range can be covered in an instant.
Now with that out of the way lets talk about a stealth based WK vs...... anything else. Your really good at trolling undergeared players or cws, other than that your a mosquito. DH doesn't have even half the punch that flurry does, what's worse is that it's Damage over time. As someone once said a long time ago which really rang true - PVP is all about burst damage.
Simply put, a stealth based Wk doesn't have the punch to take out a GF,GWF, or a DC. This is especially true of top end gear, bark shield coupled with high regen is going to have a WK pissing in the wind.
What's more is can't see how a stealth based Wk would be any fun to play either, unless as I said you like trolling undergeared players or cws. I mean in consists of standing 30 ft away from someone spamming Cos until your out for 24 seconds, then DH, till it crits. And then what? You sit on your thumbs until you can do it again, bleeding someone to death at an laughably slow rate. Frankly, I frown at that because it takes 0 skill to pull off and 0 risk as well. Plus when you get caught out of stealth and get killed in 3 seconds you just look pathetic.
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chestnut13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 176Arc User
What's more is can't see how a stealth based Wk would be any fun to play either, unless as I said you like trolling undergeared players or cws. I mean in consists of standing 30 ft away from someone spamming Cos until your out for 24 seconds, then DH, till it crits. And then what? You sit on your thumbs until you can do it again, bleeding someone to death at an laughably slow rate. Frankly, I frown at that because it takes 0 skill to pull off and 0 risk as well. Plus when you get caught out of stealth and get killed in 3 seconds you just look pathetic.
You are simply incorrect. It is one of the base fallacies of this forum (and I love the help from this forum, don't get me wrong!) that the only metric used to measure the worth of a TR is 1v1 and node holding. The endless dickswinging contest of MI as the only way to play. This is 5v5 ... when it becomes 1v1 arena fights, then dickswing away. When you play a WK, you have more flexibility in your load out and in the role that you can play. It requires thinking and a quick evaluation of both the opposition and your own team (I only pug, so evaluating my team quickly is critical). I don't spec or build for node holding or 1v1 ... I spec to play a support role and make my team better. You may think spamming DiS and popping PotB is silly and boring but it's not. It does an incredible amount of group damage on a "hot" node. It makes their GWF weaker than mine, etc. I am not great in 1v1 but I can hold my own. Stealth and range can win a lot of fights. I am not claiming WK is stronger than MI or anything like that, or pontificating on its value in high end. I am saying that played properly, it is an asset to a team ... especially if you enjoy playing it!
When I PVP, I only care about one thing. Winning. That's it. I don't care how many times I die or sacrifice in a 3v1 so other runners can take nodes if that is what it takes. I die a lot. I don't care about the fight rank ... being top of the pops and losing ticks me off to no end. I don't dominate other TRs in 1v1. But I win. And I win only in pugs ... no premades ... no one is carrying me. It DOES take skill and practice and refinement to get it done ... you don't have the get out of jail free card that MIs have which is ITC. Is it hard to take out a GF or DC? (GWF are not that hard) ... sometimes Yes. Do I sometimes get owned? Sure. But that's the fun of this game: Everything is a tradeoff. I simply go where I think I am most needed in the fight. I like my results. I have lots of fun. And I like trying to get better.
disheartening strike does not take 1/10th the skill to land in pvp as duelist flurry, that's fact. Like i said I don't hate Wk I'm just saying trying to do what MI does with stealth doesn't make any sense. If I was going to make a Wk with pvp in mind I would probably shoot for shadow strike and high AP gain encounters in my other two slots and shoot for spamming whirlwind in a crowd like no tommorrow. My Wk has over 40% ap gain and she builds them dailies hella fast.
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chestnut13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 176Arc User
disheartening strike does not take 1/10th the skill to land in pvp as duelist flurry, that's fact. Like i said I don't hate Wk I'm just saying trying to do what MI does with stealth doesn't make any sense. If I was going to make a Wk with pvp in mind I would probably shoot for shadow strike and high AP gain encounters in my other two slots and shoot for spamming whirlwind in a crowd like no tommorrow. My Wk has over 40% ap gain and she builds them dailies hella fast.
True. But there's no points for skill. Only winning. Dazing strike is great but difficult to land so why use it? DF is hard to land so why should I use it unless there's a DC that needs attending to? This isn't about using the most difficult tactic you have ... it's about being effective. I am sure you are quite effective with DF ... I wouldn't be. But I am effective in my load out.
You are correct in your WK idea ... I spec for speed and agility and more AP would be awesome. Dropping BaS in Thorn Ward is nice. That DC artifact could be a difference maker ... makes me want to roll one and level it.
Comments
1. PotB for mutual stealth destruction.
2. CoS face-off for mutual attrition.
3. Good luck landing DF while the WK runs, dodges, and keeps throwing Disheartening Strike from range.
Again, I don't deny some of the best TRs are truly masterful in the use of DF, but I'm inclined to think even that has limits. Especially since the use of PotB has been brought back to light and standardized after the IS nerf, a TR vs TR fight nowadays usually start from the moment both sides lose stealth.
WK permas have a natural advantage over MIs in the strength of all ranged attacks, not to mention has a second spammable ranged at-will which can be used after both sides lose CoS charges -- this means the WK side has a gun-vs-knife range advantage, as well as even a faster AP point build up advantage, since you don't earn any AP with DF that doesn't connect. In a fight of attrition the WK side actually holds the advantage here.
Most of the best TRs are still avidly MI, and of course, I can't beat any one of them since they are not only better players, but way better equipped than me with at least a 5k HP difference from the start. But against similar skill level, WKs have come a long way since the days where nobody ever used it. Most WK builds went obsolete when some of the mod3 changes and nerfs hit, but the builds using the same build principles as perma or semi-perma MIs still work reasonably well.
Actually, I've played it long enough to realize (yet again) that there's this thing called "in-combat power switching", so I can simply switch one of my at-wills to DF when I am expecting the AP point to fill up to 100% in maybe the next 10 seconds. So use CB, use DF to my heart's content, and then simply restealth and switch the power out back to CoS. Funny that's never crossed your mind.
Besides, ITC doesn't break CB, and lasts only half as long as CB. By the time the third DF hits ITC is either over and receives full damage of the 3rd attack, and it will still apply the extra Bilethorn ticks. As it is actually, once CB is hit a WK doesn't even need to hit DF. He can just stay around 15ft distance and pucker with knives while the MI with a DF/CoS setup doesn't have anything to attack with while he is slowed down and unable to move.
Again, that's assuming the MI lands the CB first. Unfortunately, WKs build AP faster.
Look, I'm not saying MI DF/CoS builds are outdated or obsolete or anything. Most good TRs still do very well with it because in the first place, it's a very powerful build. But that doesn't mean its perfect, nor does it mean WKs can never gain any kind of upperhand. It basically comes down to skill level, and WK builds have also developed over the years. It may not be well to simply underestimate, or dismiss it with past information -- that's all I'm saying.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
See there's that strange logic again. In these sort of thought experiments, you assign the "top TRs" on one end, and naturally assume they will evade every attempt from the other guy, while for some reason you assign a clearly lower skill level on the other end, and then assume every attempt the "top TRs" will do will always work.
Why is that? Shouldn't you be comparing similar skill levels?
*shrug* the people that get constantly hit by 1.5k DHS attacks a pop while they struggle to chase down a WK constantly moving out of DF reach, certainly don't seem to think so.
You assume the WK guy will always be in DF range, but why would the WK always be in DF jump attack range when he knows he's got a ranged-attack advantage on the MI??
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
you are assuming that top trs use pob which just show u dont play much.
its been very long since i saw pob tr.
most use bait and thats very fast ap gain plus they are stealthed,itc all the time.
i played against very good perma wk pob ss itc daily spam type
and while they are much tougher then combat tr its nothing that same skill mi cant handle easy.
range attack means nothing if u want to hold cap.
i can jump whole lenght of the cap.
but outside i dont care what happens
With the last highlighted part of your post, you've actually admitted the limit of the semi-perma MIs stretch only as far as the node -- because once the chains and restrictions of holding/contesting the node is off, then there's nothing that keeps your opponent within your DF range. The TRs using DF needs an outside tactical/strategical condition that has nothing to do with the class stat/spec/capabilities, to make it viable. Once that condition is gone, so is the viability. This is most often and easily, clearly seen in open PvP.
It is also exactly what I've said. You get to hit DF because most people are limited to the node in Domination, and has no choice but to willingly risk the dangers of DF. Hence, in terms of Domination objectives you have a very good chance to land DFs on your target - I'll give you that.
But in 1vs1 terms, on plain ground, with no node to "light up" and tell you of whether your opponent TR is within the circle or not, and freedom of movement ensured, you're not landing a DF on another TR, ever -- assuming you aren't already almost or full AP to land that CB. You can try the "from stealth, jump in random directions in hopes of snagging him once", but you'll find out that doing that on open ground with a wide space is totally different from doing it within the small node circle.
Also, TR fights comes down to a stealth-peeling fight, and someone not using PotB against a TR that does starts off from a massive disadvantage -- especially if we're talking about nodes, in which case PotB almost covers the entire node radius. Perhaps you'd be able to overcome that disadvantage by outdamaging the other guy -- but how are you going to outdamage him when he keeps attacking you from a distance where you can't retaliate?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I agree that TR fights come down to who gets out of Stealth first, but I have to have to disagree with PotB being a necessity in TR 1 vs. 1's. I never used PotB in my entire PVP life in NW because there wasn't much need to do so. I find the play style ruins the thrill of slowly killing inside the shadows, and it's FotM, an easy way to farm kills against the non-hardcore population. In a 1 vs. 1 against a TR, there are a multitude of easy ways to soak the PotB DoTs.
- Tenacious Concealment (90% less damage to Stealth)
- Impossible to Catch (for MIs, 5 seconds of damage soak)
- Dodge Roll (1.5 seconds of Immunity, we get up to a possible 3 consecutive dodges when feated)
- Bait and Switch (chance for PotB to hit BnS dummy since it can only strike 1 target at a time)
- Bloodbath (5 seconds of Immunity while rapidly striking the opponent, possibly stacking Bilethorn if it's in use)
PotB Rogues have a severe weakness, which is their need to go out of Stealth. They can ITC/SS and go back to Stealth, but its duration would be substantially reduced due to the amount of Bilethorn ticks that has been stacked on them while they were visible. Bait and Switch on the other hand gives us the upper hand in terms of Stealth, regardless if they stack Bile ticks on us. It's a useful meatshield and gives us free AP when struck.
For TRs who use feated Gloaming Cut, staying in Stealth is significantly easier (10% Stealth per hit is a lot), most specially when you have a target you can strike. PotB/SS/ITC TRs tend to be sitting ducks against BnS/SS/ITC TRs. But then again, striking a TR in Stealth with Gloaming Cut is also not that hard as long as you are able to predict their general direction, and it messes up Rogues real badly too if you can stack those BT ticks while they're in Stealth.
I've been relatively successful in PVP (though I'm not in any significant page of the boards anymore due not being able to play much, highest I got was page 4) without using PotB. The only class I've really had trouble with are Regen HRs and Roar GWFs, both of which however are builds I managed to adapt myself to, without the use of PotB, thanks to the opportunities I've had to 1 vs. 1 them in Domination. Roar is still a little troublesome though, but that's for another thread.
Having less troubles from the Roar GWF and Pathfinder lately. I learned that ITC/SS/SmokeBomb work wonders against the GWF if you can bring your own cooldowns to 15 seconds--simply ITC out of Roar (as soon as you are caught), facetank Takedown, deal some damage. Stealth while he is in Unstoppable and exit out with Smoke Bomb to daze him a few seconds, pew pew damage. Rinse repeat.
VS Pathfinder, Lurkers Assault, if used more for self healing, can be a makeshift Forest Meditation. Under desirable conditions, Stealth/Lurkers/SS heals me from 10% HP up to near three quarters of health.
On the matter of PotB, why must we lose street cred for using PotB just because it's flavor of the month? I've been using that since Beta. It's meh against other classes, but it's #1 in the anti-rogue toolkit. I vividly remember people going crazy that "Dude, he was using PotB! Ugh," coz frankly, this was one of our worst DPS powers. Nerfs killed all other powers, pushed us to (once unthinkable) using PotB as a META.
<< In agreement with Kweassa's point that DF is extremely effective due to the fact you are isolated and forced to contest a small circle called a PvP Domination Node. Without it, there are better, more reliable powers than DF. Heck, even SF can outdo DF in OPvP against extremely agile classes.
I'd also like to point out that Disheartening Strike is a mini PotB! Yes, those bleed ticks? Those tick for the better part of the duration of PotB, and since the MI TR exits stealth often, you always have an opportunity to stick him with a dagger.
I love having played WK before, and I don't regret a moment of it! ITC is MI's selling point. Range is WK's undeniable advantage. Let us, for a second, take contesting nodes out of the table. SS/ITC/PotB Master Infiltrator using Duelist Flurry is a magikarp in dry land against an SS/BnS/PotB Whisperknife sporting Disheartening Strike.
Advantageous Position << Remember this? Takes reduced damage from range after leaving stealth. WK wins a CoS showdown.
TL;DR
To try and close this argument, under perfect conditions, such as contesting a limited-sized node, DF is a force of nature. Otherwise, Disheartening Strike coupled with a P.Vorpal is the strongest PvP At-Will a TR has right now.
tod, you probably saw me talking about this in other threads.
I still don't know why. I don't know if its a bug or simply intended, but for some reason, even with Tenacious Concealment PotB just rips out insanely huge chunks of stealth per hit.
I'm actually inclined to thinking that for some reason TC doesn't apply to PotB hits... there's simply no way only 1/10th of stealth damage can kill stealth that hard --- but as it is, PotB does that. Even one hit of PotB is so disastrous to your stealth that if two TRs meet and one uses PotB, then assuming equal skill and gear level there's no way the person without PotB can win the stealth-peeling contest.
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Now granted, I've also often met PotB TRs when I myself was not using it, and also have often still come on top despite losing the stealth-peel fight --- but this is usually simply because PotB is quite spread widely. Average level TRs are way too confident about how they seemingly won the peel fight and are usually much too wreckless, hence opening up with wrong encounters and wasting CoS charges... and then they soon find out their advantage is gone, and until the next PotB recharge the tables are turned. This does happen, and I'm guessing a veteran player like you would not miss out on that opportunity.
But honestly speaking, as mentioned, if I may assume I am fighting someone who is on par with myself both in skill and gear, I honestly don't think I have any chance to win if the guy uses PotB and I don't. I need to at least match him in stealth-peeling, so ultimately both TRs are forced to fight without stealth, and thus force an attrition through ranged attacks while the other guy desperately tries to land DFs.
The reason why premades don't use PotB often, is simply because their standard tactics revolve around TRs going to the back node. Both sides' TRs usually go for the other, and thus, they hardly ever meet in combat in the first place. Most usually TRs are concerned about fighting GWFs or HRs who come to that node to clear it -- not fighting another TR in a 1vs1 situation, since that guy's in my own home node doing what I am doing here.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Very nice suggestion! I rolled with Scoundrel Action Rush since a few days ago, get drunk on Lathander's Dew and enter PvP. Tactics would be a welcome addition to my tray if I had a third passive feat, but I'm very much attached to Skillful Infiltrator/Tenacious
I find it kind of odd that that people would compare WK to MI in a one v one fight. Personally I think in open world they have 0 advantage against each other and in node control MI wins. If i was going into a one v one fight vs a Wk in open world I would probably load SS, BnS, and Potb, with gloaming strike and COS as my at wills. Fact of the matter is ITC is not an especially useful anti-rogue encounter unless your trying to win a flurry contest. I would rate TR as the #1 hardest opponent to land a flurry against, both because they know how it works better than anyone and they are a highly mobile class.
Mostly however rogue against rogue stealth fights are pretty much an elaborate case of ring around the rosey. Why anyone would waste their time on such a thing (rogue against rogue period) is beyond me, ESPECIALLY in Opvp.
I also think you might be underestimating flurry a bit. The ONLY time it is impossible for me to land a flurry on someone is if they run directly away from me. Most people still don't have a solid grasp on how flurry works or how to use it effectively. High move speed translates directly in increased flurry range and I have very little trouble landing flurries on CWs or HRs. If your commited to killing me your going to risk getting hit with a flurry, of course you can simply run away and avoid my flurry all you want but cos range and DH range can be covered in an instant.
Now with that out of the way lets talk about a stealth based WK vs...... anything else. Your really good at trolling undergeared players or cws, other than that your a mosquito. DH doesn't have even half the punch that flurry does, what's worse is that it's Damage over time. As someone once said a long time ago which really rang true - PVP is all about burst damage.
Simply put, a stealth based Wk doesn't have the punch to take out a GF,GWF, or a DC. This is especially true of top end gear, bark shield coupled with high regen is going to have a WK pissing in the wind.
What's more is can't see how a stealth based Wk would be any fun to play either, unless as I said you like trolling undergeared players or cws. I mean in consists of standing 30 ft away from someone spamming Cos until your out for 24 seconds, then DH, till it crits. And then what? You sit on your thumbs until you can do it again, bleeding someone to death at an laughably slow rate. Frankly, I frown at that because it takes 0 skill to pull off and 0 risk as well. Plus when you get caught out of stealth and get killed in 3 seconds you just look pathetic.
You are simply incorrect. It is one of the base fallacies of this forum (and I love the help from this forum, don't get me wrong!) that the only metric used to measure the worth of a TR is 1v1 and node holding. The endless dickswinging contest of MI as the only way to play. This is 5v5 ... when it becomes 1v1 arena fights, then dickswing away. When you play a WK, you have more flexibility in your load out and in the role that you can play. It requires thinking and a quick evaluation of both the opposition and your own team (I only pug, so evaluating my team quickly is critical). I don't spec or build for node holding or 1v1 ... I spec to play a support role and make my team better. You may think spamming DiS and popping PotB is silly and boring but it's not. It does an incredible amount of group damage on a "hot" node. It makes their GWF weaker than mine, etc. I am not great in 1v1 but I can hold my own. Stealth and range can win a lot of fights. I am not claiming WK is stronger than MI or anything like that, or pontificating on its value in high end. I am saying that played properly, it is an asset to a team ... especially if you enjoy playing it!
When I PVP, I only care about one thing. Winning. That's it. I don't care how many times I die or sacrifice in a 3v1 so other runners can take nodes if that is what it takes. I die a lot. I don't care about the fight rank ... being top of the pops and losing ticks me off to no end. I don't dominate other TRs in 1v1. But I win. And I win only in pugs ... no premades ... no one is carrying me. It DOES take skill and practice and refinement to get it done ... you don't have the get out of jail free card that MIs have which is ITC. Is it hard to take out a GF or DC? (GWF are not that hard) ... sometimes Yes. Do I sometimes get owned? Sure. But that's the fun of this game: Everything is a tradeoff. I simply go where I think I am most needed in the fight. I like my results. I have lots of fun. And I like trying to get better.
True. But there's no points for skill. Only winning. Dazing strike is great but difficult to land so why use it? DF is hard to land so why should I use it unless there's a DC that needs attending to? This isn't about using the most difficult tactic you have ... it's about being effective. I am sure you are quite effective with DF ... I wouldn't be. But I am effective in my load out.
You are correct in your WK idea ... I spec for speed and agility and more AP would be awesome. Dropping BaS in Thorn Ward is nice. That DC artifact could be a difference maker ... makes me want to roll one and level it.