I see where you're coming from. Something to give Swordmasters more DPS and Vanguards more survivability.
Precisely what I was saying! As of now IV feats and SM feats are the same you could spec either paragon and have the same feats just a couple different encounters and passives... SM if it is to be a DPS path need some At will boosts, crit boosts, and Strength or Heroic feats boosting Like Crushing pin increases damage by 20% or something like that. IV path should have better defense damage mitigation guard etc.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
0
sidewazeMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 31Arc User
Prones were not effected by tenacity which is the main reason they switched to stuns.
On the subject of buff the DPS as the answer to the GF...
They are a tank . Not every class should be a DPS class. The damage output could use a slight buff IMO but they will not and should not turn into the new GWFs. Ideally they should just be the annoying hard to kill class and the features which increase team survivability and DPS is much better than further pushing the DPS race meta nonsense.
What do we tank in PvP? This is a very limited perspective on GFs, basically a carebear PvP pov. By this logic, clerics shouldnt be able to do much of any damage whatsoever, after all, they are a healer. That's all.
Fresh feedback from a 15.2 GF Swordmaster in IWD PVE:
1) Blocking - simply unreliable. I tested a Totem HE in the Pass on my GWF fisrt. He ate it for breakfast. Then I logged my GF, went for the same Totem and met a 14.5 DC along the way who also wanted to test his toon. So I watched as the DC soloed the Totem, he was slow( by the time he finished the second wave, the original mob respawned ) but he did it all by himlsef, his HP nvr dropped below half.
My turn as a GF. I ended the first spawn and started slowly hacking away at the totems HP. The second wave arrived. Now, I'm a Conq with 40K HP, 49% DR, 25% deflect, 22% crit, ~30% armor ignore, Plague Fire and ~8K Power, 10% regen on Preview. So second wave is on me. First thing I notice is my guard is almost always red soon after I try to block sth( Devs already said they will increase it so lets see ). Dps is average despite my DPS focus since my only real aoe is ET and my single target attacks rarely crit. Still I manage to kill the second wave after a long and humiliating dance around them ( the whole tankiness is nowhere to be found as my GWF with his nerfed unstoppable was far more tanky on the same Totem HE ). Time for the 3rd wave with those female staff wielding undead. Immediately I start losing HP like crazy due to high damage ranged attacks who dont give a **** for my nearly 50% DR and 25% deflect. Verdict is reckless attakcer or not I gotta block if I hope to survive. So I start using more block and it feels like a hindrance rather than advantage as I lose 3 things now: my HP, my Stamina and my Power leaving me useless vs a mob that a DC had no trouble with solo! Keep in my mind my block is buffed with my armor set +30% and Im also invulnerable for 5 seconds after a Daily. After a longer humiliating dance the original mob respawns and now I have 10+ critters on me who aside from everything else also freeze me. And there I fell not able to complete a HE which my nerfed GWF ate like cake and a DC with below my GS soloed just before my attempt.
Care to retort dear developers ?
This is what I was saying abive, Swordmaster Path needs a DPS boost on everything not just flourish and Weapon Masters strike... SM path we need Crit we need to be able to reach 30% to be able to take advantage of Vorpals, also at wills and or base damage should be 10%-20% higher then IV.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Chris has already said he wants the GF to have a DPS path.... But saying we will be the new GWF is a little well I wont say it but you know...
gentlemancrush
Systems Designer
Join Date
Jan 2013
Some additional changes to better change the divide between Iron Vanguard as a Tank/Control option and Swordmaster as a raw damage dealing option
Guardian Fighter: Weaponmaster's Strike: This power now deals ~48% more damage.
Guardian Fighter: Flourish: This power now deals ~55% more damage and stuns for 3 seconds (2 seconds on players).
These changes will bring the damage in line with what a GWF is capable of using the same powers. Great Weapon Fighters will be getting the reverse treatment on Iron Vangaurd powers (so they will deal the same damage a Guardian Fighter would with the same power).
I was testing this out today in dread ring. I was trying to see how many mobs I can easily tank with my conq build and timeless set. I had at one point 26 guys around me. On my bar I had lunge, iron guard, and enforced threat. Terrifying impact and fighters recovery as Dailies, I was using the devoted artifact for quicker dailies. TR and cleave as my at-wills and trample the fallen and shield (the thing that raises the shield meter) as passives.
I did fairly well. It took me a little bit to whittle them down but between ET and TI I had them bunched and on the ground. In between I used shield (with extra mobility) I was able to position myself rather well and quick. I only had to pop FR once and with ET I had full health in one encounter power.
I popped Iron Guard quite a lot to get my shield to regen faster. My shield lasted 6-7 seconds each time I put it up and I was able to put it back up after a few seconds on cool down once popping IG. It wasn't a full shield but didn't matter since it is time based now not hp based.
If I got rid of lunging strike and used frontline surge it probably would have been better keeping everything on the ground. The added mobility with the shield up helps us a ton. And once they get rid of the charges on Tr, that will probably be my new set up. IG,FL,ET.
My GS is only a 13.6 so I'm not a uber geared Gf and I did fairly well. With a boost in the shield length I think I'm going to love it. I solo a lot and it will take me longer to do things but I also run a lot of dungeons and can see the benefits of the new ET. A GWF came around while I was testing and I would bunch everything around me and he would kill them all while I kept them on the ground. We worked well together. He didn't have to worry about aggro. I had it the whole time.
DR and Shar are way too easy. Not a reliable benchmark for class performance. When I do Arcane Reservoir on my GF I run thru the whole map gettin' every single critter on me and then I kill them all in one massive battle just before the end boss. Means nothing really as I cant even finish a HE in Icewind Pass that a DC of 14k GS can solo just fine. My GF goes on hold both live and preview until Mod 4 is ON and I get to see the "final" picture, Im tired of frustrating situations be it PVE or PVP. When something gets more annoying than fun its time to stop
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
yes but when they change that during tenacity they never said they would make it so useless and slow in activating. Also It grays out and doesnt and cant be used until to re slot it in. when you use it and then use a shield it cancels the knights challenge and also sometimes knights challenge goes into cd without being activated. It is utter bs. The speed of the activation was never said to be going in effect on the patch notes. It is a bug and they need to address it or comment on it so i can stop posting this ****.
I really like the shied up full mobility. Every other class has a way to GTFO so to speak when it comes to a hairy situation. GF's could know slow into the fray when they see a mob coming, and just shield up and take off. Yeah it would be seen as OP, but a rogue can stealth and run, and archer can dodge away or go invis, and GWF can sprint and they now have CC immunity when sprinting a cw can control you and take off. Guardians need a way to do that too
I like it too! I think it looks silly though maybe if the animations of my Tiny Dwarf legs were slowed down lmao but its nice to raise shield and be able to move....
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
It only bugs out if you don't finish the animation and try and attack before your guy goes red and the red line b/w you and the other guy shows up.
btw have you been to ice windale? have you seen the adventurers use knights challenge? thats the way it used to work. it cast really fast, like instant. That's how it used to be not the fact that they can spam it but the cast time.
...
Either way, Aggravating Strike has little or no impact on the battle. Which is why I think protectors should get something different as a T4 (read - supposed to be something good that only protectors can get) feat selection.
- B
And here comes the next problem: if Enforced Threat is so good and it is intended, what should be done about the now out-dated At-Will powers formerly used to manage Threat?
0
brynicstormbornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 41
And here comes the next problem: if Enforced Threat is so good and it is intended, what should be done about the now out-dated At-Will powers formerly used to manage Threat?
Exactly my point. I'd advocate getting rid of them and replacing the feat for protector specs.
- B
Fresh feedback from a 15.2 GF Swordmaster in IWD PVE:
1) Blocking - simply unreliable. I tested a Totem HE in the Pass on my GWF fisrt. He ate it for breakfast. Then I logged my GF, went for the same Totem and met a 14.5 DC along the way who also wanted to test his toon. So I watched as the DC soloed the Totem, he was slow( by the time he finished the second wave, the original mob respawned ) but he did it all by himlsef, his HP nvr dropped below half.
My turn as a GF. I ended the first spawn and started slowly hacking away at the totems HP. The second wave arrived. Now, I'm a Conq with 40K HP, 49% DR, 25% deflect, 22% crit, ~30% armor ignore, Plague Fire and ~8K Power, 10% regen on Preview. So second wave is on me. First thing I notice is my guard is almost always red soon after I try to block sth( Devs already said they will increase it so lets see ). Dps is average despite my DPS focus since my only real aoe is ET and my single target attacks rarely crit. Still I manage to kill the second wave after a long and humiliating dance around them ( the whole tankiness is nowhere to be found as my GWF with his nerfed unstoppable was far more tanky on the same Totem HE ). Time for the 3rd wave with those female staff wielding undead. Immediately I start losing HP like crazy due to high damage ranged attacks who dont give a **** for my nearly 50% DR and 25% deflect. Verdict is reckless attakcer or not I gotta block if I hope to survive. So I start using more block and it feels like a hindrance rather than advantage as I lose 3 things now: my HP, my Stamina and my Power leaving me useless vs a mob that a DC had no trouble with solo! Keep in my mind my block is buffed with my armor set +30% and Im also invulnerable for 5 seconds after a Daily. After a longer humiliating dance the original mob respawns and now I have 10+ critters on me who aside from everything else also freeze me. And there I fell not able to complete a HE which my nerfed GWF ate like cake and a DC with below my GS soloed just before my attempt.
Care to retort dear developers ?
I went right away to the Preview and tested the Heroic Encounter "Totem of Auril" on the Icewind Pass. Now, I do not know how you handle your Guardian Fighter, but I had no problems at all; it took its time as I am just a Tactician Swordmaster, but I had not more actually I had less problems on Preview. So, I cannot verify your result.
0
brynicstormbornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 41
Look pal, it is easy yet you cannot seem to understand it somehow. In order to deflect (i even explained to you what a deflection is...) the two things colliding have to be solid and a TR has nothing solid to offer in order to justify such a high deflection base rate aswell as deflection severity.
---
No clue if this is a communication issue, because a person in itself, cannot be a triangle.
Deflection also represents dodging. Hence the deflect bonus from dex.
- B
i must say this new block is infuriating if anything, old blocks depletion rate sucked and now the stamina drain block is even worse at least before i could preemptive block while on a node now the way it's looking ill just be running round half the time with my head cut off. i wouldnt mind having it the old way if the just lowered the rate at which dmg drained it. still doesnt help that block to me is the worst shift mechanic in the game
Exactly! You are trying to hold or cap a node, a CW is riding up, you cannot put up your block, because you will run out of block, so you WILL get entangled (there is no possible way a GF can raise his block before entangling hits going by the animation que).
Then... death. Especially the way Oppressor is right now, you have no chance and the reason you have no chance is because you cannot preemptively block.
**Edit** They fixed Oppressor so it would just be Entangeling, Shard, ect ect instead, just as bad =\
Enemy Team
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
I went right away to the Preview and tested the Heroic Encounter "Totem of Auril" on the Icewind Pass. Now, I do not know how you handle your Guardian Fighter, but I had no problems at all; it took its time as I am just a Tactician Swordmaster, but I had not more actually I had less problems on Preview. So, I cannot verify your result.
In one of these other feedback threads, someone observed that the heroic encounters have actually been nerfed (based on size of monster life bars) so ease of soloing them is now a poor comparison.
Deflection also represents dodging. Hence the deflect bonus from dex.
- B
This is essentially correct. Its not about having something solid to deflect with, its more about nimbleness. Such as parrying. Parrying is a form of deflecting. You can also deflect by moving out of the way of an attack at the last minute, only taking clipping from the weapon that strikes you.
deflecting in its essence is about transferring the kinetic force of a strike away from yourself, that means you only actually receive a small fraction of the initial force of the strike.
GF's are heavier and would have this harder to do, and would take much more skill and study outside of the norm of hold up shield and block or let armor take all the damage. (which is why i think you'd have to invest in a stat thats not primary or secondary to a GF. As this is something GF's aren't natually capable of initially.)
TR's are light and nimble, and thier tight leather clothes allow less things to get caught in them. they need a good deal of dexterity to actually pull it off however, because if they mess up, they could take serious damage. So it almost comes naturally for them since all they use are daggers. But rogues use daggers in a multitude of ways, this being one of them. (which makes it a primary stat)
A GF, if they mess up they have heavy armor to take the strike for them.
lol we thought we would be on equal footing as gwf but now they get 30% dmg resistance and cc immunity while sprint, and they still have unstoppable. I am disgusted.
Look pal, it is easy yet you cannot seem to understand it somehow. In order to deflect (i even explained to you what a deflection is...) the two things colliding have to be solid and a TR has nothing solid to offer in order to justify such a high deflection base rate aswell as deflection severity.
---
No clue if this is a communication issue, because a person in itself, cannot be a triangle.
So then do you mean that high Constitution makes the person bigger and rounder - and round things are harder to hit straight on?
You didn't explain what deflection is at all, you just said what you think it is - and that seems to overshadow whatever the reality of this game is for you.
Though these changes seem nice, I am concerned what a GF brings to the party. Theres a reason GFs are not desirable, is because they do not need a tank. These new changes are in the right direction (with gwfs have less survivability), but people want GFs?
gaining all those threat bonuses is more of a problem than a boon because right now GFs cannot take that kind of punishment not like a GWF can, unless you buff protector tree (which then means very low damage, and conqueror currently is too low to warrant a space).
GFs either need very good team offensive buffs or a boost in dps as a class (not feats/trees).
Something like... when allies are affected by knights valor their power is increased by xx%, or into the fray adds +xx% attack speed.
These are valid points. GFs wouldn't be such an afterthought if there were more CC immune mobs. Of course, a time-based block to sustain more burst damage or series of hits is nice, but people don't choose GFs because they don't need aggro control.
There is a reason the GF was a very viable class in Mod1. MC featured these hard hitting (ranged) Formorians and in times without 17k GS and the ability to load up on Life Steal, that was a real problem. I had no problem finding groups with my DPS GF.
Nowadays it's a different story. Mod2 introduced a lot of things that made the GF obsolete. Generally higher GS, the ability to self-heal for DPS classes and a new dungeon that, just like CN, featured zero CC immune mobs.
So let me second grimah's thought: Where is the place for GFs in end-game runs if CWs (and maybe even HRs with the new tree) can still hand out sufficient control while dealing more damage?
As for the reasoning as to why we changed block the way we did I have to explain how old block worked and why it was problematic. Old block functioned as a secondary HP bar that was calculated based on your maximum HP and feats, and could not be drained more than 20% in any single hit. While this sounds good on paper in practice it actually means that when you manage to pull aggro on enough targets you end up getting the whole meter drained out rapidly (sometimes in only 5 hits depending on how strong the foes were). This then left the Guardian with no tools left in his kit. It also provided complete damage protection which meant that healers had to be ready for large spikes of incoming burst damage, and the only way to respond to that in time was to have a lot of heal over time effects rolling so that when those spikes of damage came in there were heals already coming in
lol what? come on seriously chris? im pretty sure TR's flurry would drain your full (old)block in seconds i never looked at it as a second HP bar but a extra defense when the situation arised. no one needs these fancy mechanics of being able to move at normal speed while blocking or have it drain based on stamina. As a matter of fact if your going to do this give us a way of gaining faster stamina besides str and a couple encounters, come on crush it's like you never pvp'ed as a GF. lets all step back and be real here for a second people there is nothing a GF can do that a GWF cant do better when it comes to PVE PERIOD! if you think im wrong show me.
this lame attempt at "fixing" is half assed seriously not only do we drain block giving our opponents to hit first but now we get 80% instead of full dmg reduction (so a quarter block what were warriors not trained good?), i say you and the rest need to go back to the drawing bored and either just delete this class or step back and look at what a GUARDIAN fighter acutally is about because with these changes anyone who plays this class might as well be a training dummy for the rest. in my own opinion nothing was wrong with the old block other than it registered large hits as nothing and tiny miniscule hits (duelist flurry, thowing knives,HR at wills) as full drains hell while were at it make guarded assault actually mean something instead of the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> % dmg it deflects back to the attacker give us something worthwhile i feel like you're sending this horse to the glue factory atm or at this very second it's going the way of the buffalo-end rant
P.S. i would love for the devs to just admit they pigeon holed themselves by giving GWF IV becuase what effects them effects us now.
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Exactly! You are trying to hold or cap a node, a CW is riding up, you cannot put up your block, because you will run out of block, so you WILL get entangled (there is no possible way a GF can raise his block before entangling hits going by the animation que).
Then... death. Especially the way Oppressor is right now, you have no chance and the reason you have no chance is because you cannot preemptively block.
**Edit** They fixed Oppressor so it would just be Entangeling, Shard, ect ect instead, just as bad =\
Seriously Chris
You need to do a DUAL system for skills and feats. One for PvE and the other for PvP. Some similar system like GW did for example.
With this in place you can tweek and balance both worlds indipendently of each other.
All your balance probs would be gone in an instant. You could do CCs separatly, CC duration, damage, hell even diminished return could be calculated differently.
Everybody would be happy and no class would suffer either way.
If this goes live you might wanna disable PvP for mod 4 unless you like to see perma TRs and immortal HRs roaming the lackluster PvP realm of Neverwinter
i give up on giving my concerns to deaf ears. this is going to go through if we all like it or not kiss GF pvp goodbye no amount of buffs to "swordmaster" is going to save this class this is just beating a dead horse, or in this case a small amount of the player base. remember guys every other class outshines us by miles hell even DC's do albeit a niche roll. we have no place in dungeons and now we have no place as node holders in pvp. screw it ill hold out till they may or may not make a paladin class till then im shelfing my GF and go tank on my superior GWF.
@loboguild care to explain why that extra mobility is an absolute need?
In NW the GF as a tank is not a stagnant rock, it needs to move around to be effective. Either to position the mobs or to limit the damage/hits it takes. You normally move backwards while guarding to dodge hits or to get more mobs in front of you and that hasn't changed with the new mechanic. On live it's hard to guard, position mobs and prevent to get surrounded and that should be possible.
I think we can all agree that the GF needs more tool to survive longer and mobility is a fundamental asset.
Should also help not getting outmaneuvered in PVP.
In NW the GF as a tank is not a stagnant rock, it needs to move around to be effective. Either to position the mobs or to limit the damage/hits it takes. You normally move backwards while guarding to dodge hits or to get more mobs in front of you and that hasn't changed with the new mechanic. On live it's hard to guard, position mobs and prevent to get surrounded and that should be possible.
I think we can all agree that the GF needs more tool to survive longer and mobility is a fundamental asset.
Should also help not getting outmaneuvered in PVP.
lol dude/dudette im not saying it is or should be a stagnant rock like other mmo's, have you ever tanked a dungeon (look at threatening rush for mobility also into the fray *cough, cough*)? so you can agree that a GF needs more "survivability" well as it is the new guard isn't helping much in those catagories regardless of how much movement they want to gloss over the broakenness of it. this is just a band-aid on a much larger problem of a class that has seen no love since release, tanking is just running around in circles spammin enforced threat and threatening rush from add to add, if your concentrating on one pack of adds and trying to maneuver that one pack theres a problem +1 for facts.
Why bring us when you can bring a GWF or hell 4 cw's and a dc. i dont look at it in terms of pvp vs pve. shield in pve rarely if at all matters and if you can't spot the big red whatever on the ground in time to block it your doing it wrong, on that note not once(that i have noticed) has a boss/mob 1 shotted my shield bar as opposed to in pvp where a single flurry rotation and goodbye shield, becuase for some odd reason the shield mechanic takes bleed and other DOTs into account. and then im taking 80% instead of 100% guess my GF is always leaning a little to the left/right (might need glasses). hell does anyone know if bleeds go through said 80% i just now thought of that forgot to even check last time also how about plague fire (which any pvp should imho) will also effect this?
You didn't explain what deflection is at all, you just said what you think it is - and that seems to overshadow whatever the reality of this game is for you.
A plate should be more effective at deflecting damage (as it is made of material similar to the one impacting it) even with a higher angle. A leather armor would be easier to pierce, thus it is ineffective if the angle of impact isn't sufficiently low.
Not just entangling there are bunch of powers that you simply can't block even if you and your opponent pressed the button at the same time. So trying to block any of those powers will result in shield being wasted before the attacks. As a result this is not adding a new challenge for GFs and rewarding the ones who have better timing as said by Gentlemancrush. It's just making block broken for those situations.
Making block drain triggered only when being attacked will have no effect at all in PvE but will save the class from being even weaker in PvP, and in my opinion it is necessary.
Well said, this will be a very big problem in PvP, it needs to be reiterated until responded to by the Devs I think.
If you are seeing this. I have been thinking and chewing on the GF guard change for a while now and Id really really encourage you to look at block on even a 15 second uptime with about a 5 second recharge.
Before people jump saying that will be OP, think about the fact that you cant do anything while blocking on a GF. You can walk - slowly, and do a stab and shield bash, but other then that, if a GF wants to do any damage, or use any encounter, your really limited on what you can do inside of block.
I would rather test THIS on live, and then if its OP scale it back, then do what we are looking at now with a low shield meter and HIGH recharge duration... It should honestly be swapped around.
Heck id even take a stationary block if you could hold it for REALLY long periods of time. That may be the fair tradeoff.
Gonna have to strongly disagree with you on this. Take it back a notch brother. You can very easily fire an encounter off from block and have it back up before anyone even knows what happened.
15 seconds is a pretty freaking long time man, like.... A really really really long time, if block is going to be 360 degree, 100% damage reduction..... For 15 seconds?! You have to be more reasonable than that when trying to to convince a dev to listen your ideas. That would be stupid OP.
Guardian fighter aggro management 101: Higher damage = more threat. Since aggravating strike deals a pretty high amount of damage already, 15% on top of the default value is great.
YES! Tanking 101 indeed. I've tanked pretty seriously in a few MMOs in content breaking guilds. The aggro issue is almost always solved by DPS. You don't need 200% threat increase if you can hit for a reasonable amount. I'll take +100% threat generation on medium hits over 200% on tiny hits any day. It makes it harder for burst DPS to steal aggro from you.
Now I understand this game doesn't really have the PvE encounter complexity that requires this, but it may someday and the mechanics will already be in place for proper tanking. Either way, GF needs a DPS boost.
Negative, we're not a DPS class. Also, if they correct the high general set so there isn't an internal cooldown, we'd crit too much.
Yes we are. All classes are. MMOs are about killing things. DPS kills things. It is extremely difficult to respond to comments like these without sounding insulting or condescending, especially from a self proclaimed "Guardian Fighter Master" who is also a vocal class advocate.
**Not to mention, as Ayroux already pointed out, High General set does not even grant crit %**. You HAVE to do some research and know what you are talking about before posting in these types of threads! PLEASE Ant, some of us take this stuff seriously man, at least research your arguments a little before making them.
I understand people wanting to be un-kill able tanking beasts but think about what you do when you are not in an instance tanking. You're doing dailies, grinding boons, PvPing, enjoying foundries, partaking in CTA events. These things do not require you to do anything except kill things. You cannot kill things if you can't damage them.
EVERY CLASS NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO APPLY A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF DPS TO A TARGET!!!!
The perceived "Roll" of a class in a group dynamic has no bearing on this. If you can't damage things you cannot complete content. Not PvP content, not PvE content, nothing.... you are worthless..... EXCEPT when you are in that one very specific situation that calls for a "tank".
I'm not saying GF should out DPS a class who's primary roll in a group dynamic is damage dealer in PvE or PvP, but the GF NEEDS to have a DPS option. Conq tree was designed to be that option, it's lacking.... Severely lacking, in PvP at least. And the reason it is lacking in PvP is
A) Tenacity (opponents resist too much and crit got nerfed to hell) and Tenacity (you have no choice but to wear Tenacity gear which is not stated optimally for DPS)
PvE.... I do not know. I don't know what has changed since the tenacity patch in PvE that has gimped GF so much. They used to do decent damage in PvE as far as I know, I'm not sure what changed.
The answer to both problems seems to be stat reallocation like Ayroux and Colo are suggesting.
I will not speak to PvE but for PvP our DPS NEEDS to be where it was, or slightly better than, pre-tenacity. I really do not care how they do it but until they do we will not be able to preform in PvP at a level that is useful to a group. Will the tweaks to flourish and that other ability nobody has ever used help? I don't know, but all this silliness about "GFs are not a DPS class so they should not be able to do any meaningful DPS ever under any circumstances" needs to STOP! ESPECIALLY from fellow GFs.
I will not speak to PvE but for PvP our DPS NEEDS to be where it was, or slightly better than, pre-tenacity. I really do not care how they do it but until they do we will not be able to preform in PvP at a level that is useful to a group. Will the tweaks to flourish and that other ability nobody has ever used help? I don't know, but all this silliness about "GFs are not a DPS class so they should not be able to do any meaningful DPS ever under any circumstances" needs to STOP! ESPECIALLY from fellow GFs.
Agreed, if Conq DPS speced, GF should do more dmg than Protector or Tactician. Same difference in trees as other classes - Thauma CW, Destro GWF, Archer HR and Executioner TR. Now this tree can only stack more power but no real diff in dps. I dont think they should do same dpslike man with 2-handed sword with ibs coz they have only "1-handed" sword and shield. But they should do nice dps too, like 80-85% dmg of GWF. It will help them in PvP and sometimes in PvE.
Comments
Precisely what I was saying! As of now IV feats and SM feats are the same you could spec either paragon and have the same feats just a couple different encounters and passives... SM if it is to be a DPS path need some At will boosts, crit boosts, and Strength or Heroic feats boosting Like Crushing pin increases damage by 20% or something like that. IV path should have better defense damage mitigation guard etc.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
This is what I was saying abive, Swordmaster Path needs a DPS boost on everything not just flourish and Weapon Masters strike... SM path we need Crit we need to be able to reach 30% to be able to take advantage of Vorpals, also at wills and or base damage should be 10%-20% higher then IV.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
gentlemancrush
Systems Designer
Join Date
Jan 2013
Some additional changes to better change the divide between Iron Vanguard as a Tank/Control option and Swordmaster as a raw damage dealing option
Guardian Fighter: Weaponmaster's Strike: This power now deals ~48% more damage.
Guardian Fighter: Flourish: This power now deals ~55% more damage and stuns for 3 seconds (2 seconds on players).
These changes will bring the damage in line with what a GWF is capable of using the same powers. Great Weapon Fighters will be getting the reverse treatment on Iron Vangaurd powers (so they will deal the same damage a Guardian Fighter would with the same power).
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/devtracker.php
EDIT: GF DPS will never meet the needs of a true DPS class but it should be as good if not better than a Healers?
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
DR and Shar are way too easy. Not a reliable benchmark for class performance. When I do Arcane Reservoir on my GF I run thru the whole map gettin' every single critter on me and then I kill them all in one massive battle just before the end boss. Means nothing really as I cant even finish a HE in Icewind Pass that a DC of 14k GS can solo just fine. My GF goes on hold both live and preview until Mod 4 is ON and I get to see the "final" picture, Im tired of frustrating situations be it PVE or PVP. When something gets more annoying than fun its time to stop
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I like it too! I think it looks silly though maybe if the animations of my Tiny Dwarf legs were slowed down lmao but its nice to raise shield and be able to move....
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
btw have you been to ice windale? have you seen the adventurers use knights challenge? thats the way it used to work. it cast really fast, like instant. That's how it used to be not the fact that they can spam it but the cast time.
Exactly my point. I'd advocate getting rid of them and replacing the feat for protector specs.
- B
I went right away to the Preview and tested the Heroic Encounter "Totem of Auril" on the Icewind Pass. Now, I do not know how you handle your Guardian Fighter, but I had no problems at all; it took its time as I am just a Tactician Swordmaster, but I had not more actually I had less problems on Preview. So, I cannot verify your result.
Deflection also represents dodging. Hence the deflect bonus from dex.
- B
Exactly! You are trying to hold or cap a node, a CW is riding up, you cannot put up your block, because you will run out of block, so you WILL get entangled (there is no possible way a GF can raise his block before entangling hits going by the animation que).
Then... death. Especially the way Oppressor is right now, you have no chance and the reason you have no chance is because you cannot preemptively block.
**Edit** They fixed Oppressor so it would just be Entangeling, Shard, ect ect instead, just as bad =\
In one of these other feedback threads, someone observed that the heroic encounters have actually been nerfed (based on size of monster life bars) so ease of soloing them is now a poor comparison.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
This is essentially correct. Its not about having something solid to deflect with, its more about nimbleness. Such as parrying. Parrying is a form of deflecting. You can also deflect by moving out of the way of an attack at the last minute, only taking clipping from the weapon that strikes you.
deflecting in its essence is about transferring the kinetic force of a strike away from yourself, that means you only actually receive a small fraction of the initial force of the strike.
GF's are heavier and would have this harder to do, and would take much more skill and study outside of the norm of hold up shield and block or let armor take all the damage. (which is why i think you'd have to invest in a stat thats not primary or secondary to a GF. As this is something GF's aren't natually capable of initially.)
TR's are light and nimble, and thier tight leather clothes allow less things to get caught in them. they need a good deal of dexterity to actually pull it off however, because if they mess up, they could take serious damage. So it almost comes naturally for them since all they use are daggers. But rogues use daggers in a multitude of ways, this being one of them. (which makes it a primary stat)
A GF, if they mess up they have heavy armor to take the strike for them.
So then do you mean that high Constitution makes the person bigger and rounder - and round things are harder to hit straight on?
You didn't explain what deflection is at all, you just said what you think it is - and that seems to overshadow whatever the reality of this game is for you.
These are valid points. GFs wouldn't be such an afterthought if there were more CC immune mobs. Of course, a time-based block to sustain more burst damage or series of hits is nice, but people don't choose GFs because they don't need aggro control.
There is a reason the GF was a very viable class in Mod1. MC featured these hard hitting (ranged) Formorians and in times without 17k GS and the ability to load up on Life Steal, that was a real problem. I had no problem finding groups with my DPS GF.
Nowadays it's a different story. Mod2 introduced a lot of things that made the GF obsolete. Generally higher GS, the ability to self-heal for DPS classes and a new dungeon that, just like CN, featured zero CC immune mobs.
So let me second grimah's thought: Where is the place for GFs in end-game runs if CWs (and maybe even HRs with the new tree) can still hand out sufficient control while dealing more damage?
lol what? come on seriously chris? im pretty sure TR's flurry would drain your full (old)block in seconds i never looked at it as a second HP bar but a extra defense when the situation arised. no one needs these fancy mechanics of being able to move at normal speed while blocking or have it drain based on stamina. As a matter of fact if your going to do this give us a way of gaining faster stamina besides str and a couple encounters, come on crush it's like you never pvp'ed as a GF. lets all step back and be real here for a second people there is nothing a GF can do that a GWF cant do better when it comes to PVE PERIOD! if you think im wrong show me.
this lame attempt at "fixing" is half assed seriously not only do we drain block giving our opponents to hit first but now we get 80% instead of full dmg reduction (so a quarter block what were warriors not trained good?), i say you and the rest need to go back to the drawing bored and either just delete this class or step back and look at what a GUARDIAN fighter acutally is about because with these changes anyone who plays this class might as well be a training dummy for the rest. in my own opinion nothing was wrong with the old block other than it registered large hits as nothing and tiny miniscule hits (duelist flurry, thowing knives,HR at wills) as full drains hell while were at it make guarded assault actually mean something instead of the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> % dmg it deflects back to the attacker give us something worthwhile i feel like you're sending this horse to the glue factory atm or at this very second it's going the way of the buffalo-end rant
P.S. i would love for the devs to just admit they pigeon holed themselves by giving GWF IV becuase what effects them effects us now.
(Bouncing Boy, Legion of Super Heroes!)
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Seriously Chris
You need to do a DUAL system for skills and feats. One for PvE and the other for PvP. Some similar system like GW did for example.
With this in place you can tweek and balance both worlds indipendently of each other.
All your balance probs would be gone in an instant. You could do CCs separatly, CC duration, damage, hell even diminished return could be calculated differently.
Everybody would be happy and no class would suffer either way.
If this goes live you might wanna disable PvP for mod 4 unless you like to see perma TRs and immortal HRs roaming the lackluster PvP realm of Neverwinter
In NW the GF as a tank is not a stagnant rock, it needs to move around to be effective. Either to position the mobs or to limit the damage/hits it takes. You normally move backwards while guarding to dodge hits or to get more mobs in front of you and that hasn't changed with the new mechanic. On live it's hard to guard, position mobs and prevent to get surrounded and that should be possible.
I think we can all agree that the GF needs more tool to survive longer and mobility is a fundamental asset.
Should also help not getting outmaneuvered in PVP.
lol dude/dudette im not saying it is or should be a stagnant rock like other mmo's, have you ever tanked a dungeon (look at threatening rush for mobility also into the fray *cough, cough*)? so you can agree that a GF needs more "survivability" well as it is the new guard isn't helping much in those catagories regardless of how much movement they want to gloss over the broakenness of it. this is just a band-aid on a much larger problem of a class that has seen no love since release, tanking is just running around in circles spammin enforced threat and threatening rush from add to add, if your concentrating on one pack of adds and trying to maneuver that one pack theres a problem +1 for facts.
Why bring us when you can bring a GWF or hell 4 cw's and a dc. i dont look at it in terms of pvp vs pve. shield in pve rarely if at all matters and if you can't spot the big red whatever on the ground in time to block it your doing it wrong, on that note not once(that i have noticed) has a boss/mob 1 shotted my shield bar as opposed to in pvp where a single flurry rotation and goodbye shield, becuase for some odd reason the shield mechanic takes bleed and other DOTs into account. and then im taking 80% instead of 100% guess my GF is always leaning a little to the left/right (might need glasses). hell does anyone know if bleeds go through said 80% i just now thought of that forgot to even check last time also how about plague fire (which any pvp should imho) will also effect this?
A plate should be more effective at deflecting damage (as it is made of material similar to the one impacting it) even with a higher angle. A leather armor would be easier to pierce, thus it is ineffective if the angle of impact isn't sufficiently low.
soo.. for 80 % Reduces incoming dmg is better put infinity time for shield...3/5 seg of guard is same **** of old system
Well said, this will be a very big problem in PvP, it needs to be reiterated until responded to by the Devs I think.
Gonna have to strongly disagree with you on this. Take it back a notch brother. You can very easily fire an encounter off from block and have it back up before anyone even knows what happened.
15 seconds is a pretty freaking long time man, like.... A really really really long time, if block is going to be 360 degree, 100% damage reduction..... For 15 seconds?! You have to be more reasonable than that when trying to to convince a dev to listen your ideas. That would be stupid OP.
YES! Tanking 101 indeed. I've tanked pretty seriously in a few MMOs in content breaking guilds. The aggro issue is almost always solved by DPS. You don't need 200% threat increase if you can hit for a reasonable amount. I'll take +100% threat generation on medium hits over 200% on tiny hits any day. It makes it harder for burst DPS to steal aggro from you.
Now I understand this game doesn't really have the PvE encounter complexity that requires this, but it may someday and the mechanics will already be in place for proper tanking. Either way, GF needs a DPS boost.
Yes we are. All classes are. MMOs are about killing things. DPS kills things. It is extremely difficult to respond to comments like these without sounding insulting or condescending, especially from a self proclaimed "Guardian Fighter Master" who is also a vocal class advocate.
**Not to mention, as Ayroux already pointed out, High General set does not even grant crit %**. You HAVE to do some research and know what you are talking about before posting in these types of threads! PLEASE Ant, some of us take this stuff seriously man, at least research your arguments a little before making them.
I understand people wanting to be un-kill able tanking beasts but think about what you do when you are not in an instance tanking. You're doing dailies, grinding boons, PvPing, enjoying foundries, partaking in CTA events. These things do not require you to do anything except kill things. You cannot kill things if you can't damage them.
EVERY CLASS NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO APPLY A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF DPS TO A TARGET!!!!
The perceived "Roll" of a class in a group dynamic has no bearing on this. If you can't damage things you cannot complete content. Not PvP content, not PvE content, nothing.... you are worthless..... EXCEPT when you are in that one very specific situation that calls for a "tank".
I'm not saying GF should out DPS a class who's primary roll in a group dynamic is damage dealer in PvE or PvP, but the GF NEEDS to have a DPS option. Conq tree was designed to be that option, it's lacking.... Severely lacking, in PvP at least. And the reason it is lacking in PvP is
A) Tenacity (opponents resist too much and crit got nerfed to hell) and
PvE.... I do not know. I don't know what has changed since the tenacity patch in PvE that has gimped GF so much. They used to do decent damage in PvE as far as I know, I'm not sure what changed.
The answer to both problems seems to be stat reallocation like Ayroux and Colo are suggesting.
I will not speak to PvE but for PvP our DPS NEEDS to be where it was, or slightly better than, pre-tenacity. I really do not care how they do it but until they do we will not be able to preform in PvP at a level that is useful to a group. Will the tweaks to flourish and that other ability nobody has ever used help? I don't know, but all this silliness about "GFs are not a DPS class so they should not be able to do any meaningful DPS ever under any circumstances" needs to STOP! ESPECIALLY from fellow GFs.
Agreed, if Conq DPS speced, GF should do more dmg than Protector or Tactician. Same difference in trees as other classes - Thauma CW, Destro GWF, Archer HR and Executioner TR. Now this tree can only stack more power but no real diff in dps. I dont think they should do same dpslike man with 2-handed sword with ibs coz they have only "1-handed" sword and shield. But they should do nice dps too, like 80-85% dmg of GWF. It will help them in PvP and sometimes in PvE.