Several things here and I will attempt to answer them one at a time. First YES! Legit channel is a good place to get a group that is not CWF. Second: GWFs are in no way superior in aggro management. Their only means of maintaining aggro is DPS. Which is why they lose it so often. .
Well that's not the way that team works, but they do actually hold agro better. You can dump the mobs on the GWFs they'll be able to hold them there.
Still that's not why the GWF ends up being the better choice. On top the the agro control in mass mob situations you end up with in a GWF party... the GWF actually has AoEs of their own, and when you line up the mobs for them with Singularity they'll immediately prone them.
Unlike the GF Shield bash technique which throws the mobs halfway across the room, GWF just knocks them down a couple feet in front of them.
The CWs then throw in the Shards, which prones them again. The second GWF then prones more of them, The CWs move in with Steal Time, and the mobs never stand up for that long before they're almost dead.
Its not a matter of agro control but rather a series of knockdowns/prones/stuns/slows the CW/GWF team runs concurrent to one another, in place of Agro control that is lacking in the GFs.
Thus an improvement to the GF Shield AND increased Threat from the GF... as was mentioned in my second post on the thread the Devs are looking into will achieve the same thing, basically allowing the GF to actually hold agro in a mass mob situation. This is the problem with the GF at present.
Right now the CW/GWF team is actually not bothering with Agro control at all.
They play off each other as they both have only short term CCs. One second prones and stuns each. The CW doesn't really have any AoE crowd control and never has. But between the GWFs and CW they can maintain control of a room, neither one of the two alone can do it for very long. Combined they can do it indefinitely each with their one second prones and stuns, and still do massive damage between the two.
The CW/GWF team was designed for mass mobs, and togather they dispatch them handily. Which makes up for the lack of agro control in the game as a whole.
If the changes the Devs are talking about are actually introduced.... and GFs can really gain and hold agro control in mass mob situations for once. It will mean the return of the Protector and Guardian the GF was intended to be restoring the proper place of the Guardian Fighter in the group and his effectiveness in any party.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2014
In a nutshell what the GWF ends up doing isn't too much different than what they do in PvP, except they throw in their AoE Slows and other powers too. The CW version, aka Shards or Meatball... doesn't work in PvP as it needs to hit two or more targets for it to explode and prone a group. But it will prone everything in the AoE explosion. The CW will throw in their Steal Time, Conduit of Ice, and a Sudden Strike into the mob pile.
When it comes to the boss mobs or the stronger mobs in the pile that don't drop to a few AoEs... the GWFs take over at that point and go all out single target damage as their Single target damage is stronger than the CWs. Between the two they wreck dungeons as they are entirely designed around Mass Mobs.
The CWs only end up on top of Paingiver because they're damaging so many mobs at once... The GWF is actually doing more damage on an individual targets, which is why they handle the stronger mobs, while the CW AoEs the hordes of weak mobs.
I intend to do the same. I noticed some people here said GF sucks but knowing how I've built my character and how he performs in dungeons and even in one skirmish, I think it's them who don't know what they're doing. The first time I got a red-named quest for party (on the map with the orcs) I got into a party with another GF, a GWF, DC and a CW. The funniest part is that I was the lowest level among the rest of the party members at the end of the map with the boss I'm the only one who survived and kept fighting the boss. All others died pretty quickly after the final battle began but I remained and killed that boss. The most of the time I was hiding behind my shield and released it only to use the encounter powers. So when the battle was over I had lost only about 15% of my hit points.
I agree. The character that is the funniest to play as, is the GF.
Someone above mentioned "most memorable" battle. I had one of that kind too - between the levels of 30 and 40. There was a boss that was taller than the size of my screen (the biggest thing I've seen so far) and all the time I was able to see only his waist. The rest of the boss was way above the screen limit, so I couldn't even see his hit points bar. The rest of my party said things from "there's no way we can kill that" to "it's time to die infinitely today". Even I had my doubts I'd be able to kill it. But with the proper sequence of used skills I managed to kill that boss in under a minute while the others were licking their wounds nearby and some said it was impossible I would kill that thing so fast without dying. And yet, I beat the odds. For the entire battle with that skyscraper I used only 1 potion to heal myself. Everything else was the message "blocked", "blocked", "blocked"...
I don't know about the others but THIS is what I call "fun". And most surely GF is a character I wouldn't replace for anything in the world.
As I said, I felt pretty useful in most dungeon and skirmish, but when you hit lvl 60 you will see what we are saying, I also went to all Treath Generating Feats and Powers to get aggro and stuff, but in T2, T1 and CN, MC, etc... ("High End" PVE) the "tanking" job get atleast 3x or 4x times harder, but I kinda understand you, my performance as a GF was pretty good to lvl 1 until 59, so I also thinked that it was matter that a lot ppl doesn't know how to build their GFs (which is also true), however, you i'll see.
It not about being able to survive thanks to gf tanking... we have reached a level where we are overgeared to the contents... we dont need anyone to protect us
I made a GF (2nd character) 356 days ago, and I still love him.
But since I rolled a GWF 260 days ago I know what fun is in this game.
The GWF is superior to the GF in every way.
Unstoppable is way better than that bloody shield that breaks after 2 hits from a boss
Unstoppable works in a 360° arc, which is necessary due to the add fest in dungeons and AoE
GWF sprints out for harms way vs. sitting duck
GWF is self sustainable with high damage and a bit of life steal.
I still love and (a bit role-) play my dwarven GF, but only as a courtesy of my friends in game I can take him, he is really useless and slows the run down a bit.
The CW, TR, GWF all can make their living with life steal, so the only one kind of needing add control is the DC, which is in these days more a debuffer than a healer, see life steal.
So, I am sorry, but I think as the current game is you better take your GWF to level 60 soon, you will have much more fun in epic dungeons.
Never going to happen. Mostly because after that moron died twice till he reached level 9, I had to delete him. The first boss at level 3 or 4 (the one that appears right after Valindra kills the private running with you) hit my GWF once and immediately reduced his hp in half. If you call that "usefulness", then there's no point of continuing this argue.
At the moment I'm testing a cleric which appears to be dealing with mobs much better than that fairy called "Great Weapon Fighter". His class should be named "Great Moron Fighter", IMO.
For all those years I've spent playing such games I've learnt one thing: if a character can't handle even the easiest mobs and dies even at the lowest levels with the initial skills the game gives you - he's not worthy. And the GWF already proved to be not worthy.
Never going to happen. Mostly because after that moron died twice till he reached level 9
Its fairly foolish to judge an entire class based solely on how it played up to level 9. That is honestly not even enough time to judge much of anything. You dont even have your "Tab" power at that level.
Put simply, your impressions are wrong. GWFs are, in many respects, far better at soaking up damage then GFs. GF's mainly excel at taking large hits, they are extremely good at handling bosses. They, however, are fairly poor at soaking up hits from a swarm of adds and minions. A large number of little hits will break their shield far faster then one or two large hits. And being swarmed, also generally means you are being flanked and therefore hit on unshielded sides.
The GWF on the other hand, eats up damage like a pro. Being swarmed and abused by lots of little hits, is like candy to them. It fuels them and makes them truly unstoppable. In fact, a GWF with unstoppable running can easily soak up more damage, and for a longer duration then what any GF can block for.
In a dungeon with a hard hitting boss and limited to no adds, the GF might be king. But in our current dungeons, with swarms of adds the GWF is better able to handle them. Its just simple mechanics. A GF can hold until his shield breaks, they are strong initially but will eventually break under pressure. A GWF, on the other hand, gets stronger and is in effect fueled and improved by that very same pressure.
GF's mainly excel at taking large hits, they are extremely good at handling bosses.
The 2nd boss in SP shows you immediately how and why the GF can in no way compete with the GWF.
3 or 4 CC immune large AoE guys give a GF a hard time. I can handle them, with my GF, but in that time I do no damage, need potions and a healer.
With my GWF I walk in, do heavy damage and sprint if I am in red while not unstoppable.
I think GWF is easier there, does way more damage, more likely to not drop, does not need a potion every 12s and not depending on the DC.
I think GF is broken and no use at all. Sorry, but beyond approx. 13k average GS in the party the GF is a millstone to drag around.
He does damage like a cleric and the only thing he excels in - defense - is subject to heavy diminishing returns and a questionable narrow arc shield design that breaks easily.
Unlike the GF Shield bash technique which throws the mobs halfway across the room, GWF just knocks them down a couple feet in front of them.
Are you talking about Bulls' Charge? That only hits one mob, and bad GWFs also run encounters like roar as well by the way. Plus, If youre talking about prones, both GWF and GF can now use those(frontline surge, not to mention Terrifying Impact).
The CWs then throw in the Shards, which prones them again. The second GWF then prones more of them, The CWs move in with Steal Time, and the mobs never stand up for that long before they're almost dead.
Once again, GFs also capable of almost the same amount of stun/prone locking.
Right now the CW/GWF team is actually not bothering with Agro control at all.
They play off each other as they both have only short term CCs. One second prones and stuns each. The CW doesn't really have any AoE crowd control and never has. But between the GWFs and CW they can maintain control of a room, neither one of the two alone can do it for very long. Combined they can do it indefinitely each with their one second prones and stuns, and still do massive damage between the two.
If youre not seeing much mob agro control from a GF, hes not doing his job is all. The best GFs out there make it their life's worth about holding a group in place through mob agro. And the reason this team(CW,GWF) is preferred is because of aoe dps and crowd control. The cw has the greatest crowd control methods in the game, bar none. That's why they are THE preferred pve class: they damage entire mobs as they control them down.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Its only because of the aoe dps that GWFs are considered better. CWs,GWFs,HRs are the best in this department. Its a question of "one can hold it longer, the other can kill it faster". And when people want speed runs, they want speed over longevity.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
As I said, I felt pretty useful in most dungeon and skirmish, but when you hit lvl 60 you will see what we are saying, I also went to all Treath Generating Feats and Powers to get aggro and stuff, but in T2, T1 and CN, MC, etc... ("High End" PVE) the "tanking" job get atleast 3x or 4x times harder, but I kinda understand you, my performance as a GF was pretty good to lvl 1 until 59, so I also thinked that it was matter that a lot ppl doesn't know how to build their GFs (which is also true), however, you i'll see.
So true^. Ive seen those bad GFs that didn't build their tank to "tank". But ive also seen a CW not know what crowd control(lol) is by the same amount. It all comes down to "who didn't make their class to act like their class". Some people want to be on top of the paingiver board, instead of helping to finish the dungeon. As a class that doesn't have a role to fulfill, the GWF is the easiest with their aoe dps and toughness. But I think people in this game forget that classic dungeons in mmos follow a "tank, crowd controller, healer" sense of classic playstyle.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
So true^. Ive seen those bad GFs that didn't build their tank to "tank".
But again, the problem is that nothing needs to be tanked. So you either focus on "slightly less sucky dps", or on wholly useless tankiness. Plus it'll make solo content even more of a chore.
Sure, parties can work with someone doing the tanking, but they can work just as well (or even faster) by simply ignoring tanking as a concept and just mashing everything.
But again, the problem is that nothing needs to be tanked. So you either focus on "slightly less sucky dps", or on wholly useless tankiness. Plus it'll make solo content even more of a chore.
Sure, parties can work with someone doing the tanking, but they can work just as well (or even faster) by simply ignoring tanking as a concept and just mashing everything.
True. And THATS the problem with this game's dungeon design thus far. They want speed versus longevity, so aoe dps masters take the cake here.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
I guess that one of the problems here, apart from the different design (Bosses easier than the adds...), is the gears. In other MMO's I played, one could not stack regen and life steal, together or at all (only pots for that): meaning they really needed to tone down the amount of incoming damage to survive, so Cleric=neeeeeded and Tank=even more needed.
Tl;Dr: problem now is DPS classes ALSO tank/regen a lot (with the right gear, obviously).
Halflingas The Great - Stormwarden HR(60)
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited May 2014
Theres alot of back and forth here, just want to point a couple things out...
Neverwinter , open world PVE pre 60 is pretty meaningless, its by far the easiest game Ive seen to level up in, did my GWF in 17 hours during the double exp weekend, NON twinked, IE didnt spend a AD on him , just quest drops.
My CW run through in 3 days total time played, with no double exp points with again no AD spend on items, no twinking.
There is maybe 6 spots total on the maps that have some degree of difficulty, one you already mentioned is around the 9-10 level area of orc tower, you have like no powers yet, using quest drops ect and they hit hard. Once you get past that, its nothing.
Finding fault in any class pre 60 is hard, they are not fully fleshed out, blaming a healer , say at level 34 for not keeping you up is not their fault, DC's most powerful healing ability is Astral Shield , something they wont have yet, trying to keep a group up with healing word and astral seal is pretty hard at those levels. A DC is a side product healer as well, its not fully thier function, dont come in from another MMO thinking a DC is some RAID healing monster, its not thier total package, they do have some nice heals, but they are more of a blended buffing class with heals honestly. (a mesh of other games pure healer and pure buffer, this game doesn't have two separate classes of that , so you have the DC to cover both, sometimes poorly tbh)
MOST t2s can be run with GFs pretty darn easy without a lot of time differences, gear score covers all, people who dont want a GF , bah, RUN LEGIT, you can get any t2 run, doesnt matter of class or even gear score, YOU better determine where you are at, hitting 8.9k and running ToS with a GF isnt going to cut it probably. Prepare yourself , know your limitations and people wont care what gear score your at or anything. The beauty is , most legit players are going to leave the choice when your ready to run to you, Not weird GS limitations to run things like Pirate King and Fardelvers (Oh no that CW is 11.7 not 12 like we said, totally kick them.. there just isn't that much of a performance difference at such small gear score ranges, but you should see some people freak about 2-300 gear score.
Do you need a GF for them? NO! But you dont need a GWF, HR, TR or DC either, you may want some CWs, but you "dont" need them for most runs, they will however make it easier and speed it up. CW/GWF combo rules all right now, but doenst mean you "need" any of them to finish these runs. Ive done DC runs with no CWs, Ive done CW runs with no DCs or GWFs, Ive done GWF runs with all GWFs and a TR ect.. its pretty much all doable with enough gear score and really alot of times , its quicker then you think.
When I am on my DC I totally appreciate a GF for SP and FH end kiting, it allows me to be a buffer,debuffer . making them super easy on me and its way faster in the end, as Im pumping out Hallowed ground as quick as I can, because Im not running in stupid circles trying to kite, and I would need some support to take out archers still, GF can handle them all, with maybe a random FF to help him out, I can then lay down Divine Glow over and over with HG as much as possible.
The game doesnt need a tank, but it really doesnt need a healer either.. this game isnt set up for the holy trinity, which is part of the problem why some classes are really less played and less wanted.
Whats the fix? you will see 10000 forum posts about GFs, DCs, TRS ect ect.. some play better in PVP , some in PVE.. When Im on my GWF in domination.. do you know who I think is OP? pathfinder HRs and thier shift, shift, shift , healy encounters, whats the point of hitting for 20k just for them to heal it up over and over.. pain in the but.
Where we all come from is different angles, so people playing just the GF will find it a harder road, then others playing 2-3 different classes or more, since you can just jump around and getting a different version of the game play honestly.
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epclipseingmoonMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2014
Most tanks have no idea about what there role is so if pugging your best bet is to get another dps class. As a tank you need to be hit by every mob in area mark all mobs and hold agro and if you dont like being the punchingbag so to say dont play gf...
Actually, even a decent GF can hold mob agro better. GWFs aren't as built for threat gen and agro gain/sustain than a good GF.
Are you talking about Bulls' Charge? That only hits one mob, and bad GWFs also run encounters like roar as well by the way. Plus, If youre talking about prones, both GWF and GF can now use those(frontline surge, not to mention Terrifying Impact).
Once again, GFs also capable of almost the same amount of stun/prone locking.
Well Willie,
I can tell you right now having worked with both GFs and GWFs... the GFs whatever it is they do... throws them halfway across the room. The GWFs only dump them on their butts.
AND yes the GWF version hits up to 5 targets, I do not know what this power is, but they use it repeatedly in the dungeons I've been in.
The CWs Singularity... the GWFs prone them right out of the gate and don't throw them far enough to be a problem, unlike the GFs I've worked with. Then the Steal Time and Shards comes in. Then more prones, slows and stuns from the GWFs.
That's the tactic and how it actually works and why the Pair is such a good team.
I can tell you right now, having experienced this from the CW side... because it directly has affected me nearly every time in GF groups. The GFs CAN hold agro... but only on a few mobs. Once you start getting mass spammed by mobs they get overloaded and cannot handle it anymore.
THATS what really happens. I know you WANT to be good at agro control, and ARE good at agro control on a few mobs... BUT once you get spammed you CANT handle them all. And I end up getting whammied as a mage. You can't protect me, and never could.
That is why I have been pushing for the mass mob agro control for some time for GFs. YES YOU DO NEED THIS. YOU CANT DO IT I know so from having worked with so many of you, this is your shortcoming in Agro Control.
I can tell you right now having worked with both GFs and GWFs... the GFs whatever it is they do... throws them halfway across the room. The GWFs only dump them on their butts.
Frontline Surge is a paragon encounter for the Iron Vanguard path, available to both GFs and GWFs. It's the one that hits 5 targets proning them with a slight knockback/scatter. The only difference in effect between the two classes is that the GWF's FLS hits a lot harder. The power you're thinking of is what Willie said, Bull Charge, the 50 pt. encounter available only to GFs. It's a single target rush that then throws the target back a good distance. Like most knockback powers, it's good for soloing and PVP but shouldn't be on the bar in PVE group play except for certain circumstances. So basically it's not that GFs have the 'bad' power and GWFs have the 'good' one. They both can have the 'good' one but clueless GFs will also be using the 'bad' one.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Well that's not the way that team works, but they do actually hold agro better. You can dump the mobs on the GWFs they'll be able to hold them there.
Still that's not why the GWF ends up being the better choice. On top the the agro control in mass mob situations you end up with in a GWF party... the GWF actually has AoEs of their own, and when you line up the mobs for them with Singularity they'll immediately prone them.
Unlike the GF Shield bash technique which throws the mobs halfway across the room, GWF just knocks them down a couple feet in front of them.
Let's pause here. First shield bash does not throw anything anywhere. It is a closer with a mark. If you built IV you would have it. I can only imagine you are thinking of Bull Rush which is not the best answer in most PVE situations (there are exceptions). Second, cleave does more damage than the GWF instant it just has a smaller arc so positioning is more critical to making it effective. So in short generally for PVE my GF is slotting 2 AOE at-wills, 2 encounter AOEs, and 1 single target encounter. Most of them have additional threat generation.
Second you are discussing a particular party composition which is popular because if everyone follows the script it is easy. You only think you have control because the CW is using their control to keep the mobs with you. Since your only control is damage you will see this the second you run without 2+ CWs backing you up. And then complain that the HR 'stole' your aggro. A skilled GF in the same composition will be able to hold aggro.
Which comes to the final point. Skill. A moderately talented party composed of CWFs can run any content in the game by following a well known script. A skilled GF can work in any composition. Really I have a rule of three. If I can find two other skilled players of any class then we can add 2 more anything and complete a delve.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Let's pause here. First shield bash does not throw anything anywhere. It is a closer with a mark. If you built IV you would have it. I can only imagine you are thinking of Bull Rush which is not the best answer in most PVE situations (there are exceptions). Second, cleave does more damage than the GWF instant it just has a smaller arc so positioning is more critical to making it effective. So in short generally for PVE my GF is slotting 2 AOE at-wills, 2 encounter AOEs, and 1 single target encounter. Most of them have additional threat generation.
Second you are discussing a particular party composition which is popular because if everyone follows the script it is easy. You only think you have control because the CW is using their control to keep the mobs with you. Since your only control is damage you will see this the second you run without 2+ CWs backing you up. And then complain that the HR 'stole' your aggro. A skilled GF in the same composition will be able to hold aggro
Likely then it was Bull Rush.
....And I am not a GWF...
I AM the CW you've been failing to protect for about a year now after you get spammed with more than 7 mobs... which is pretty much all the upper tier dungeons. I AM the CW who is working with the GWFs. Little secret on our side... our CCs don't last very long.
You've got the Shards Prone (1 second)... and a whopping 3 second stun with Steal Time, that's the only AoE you've got for CC. So the GWFs takes over in between. That is reality. We're no more a controller than any other class.
It is not CWs alone that do this... because WE can't keep anything locked down either without stacking a bunch of us togather we're not the "controllers" you throught we were. Our actual AoE controls are no better than yours. We DO have AoE damage though.
Maybe you can answer me then...
Why is it every GF I've ever played with loses agro after about 6-8 mobs. No exceptions...
Something is not gelling here with what you're telling me. I cannot claim to be knowledgeble on the specifics of GF powers... I AM however the CW you've repeatedly failed to protect in any kind of Mass Mob situation. I know very well what you cannot do as I am always on the recieving end of it and have to cover that.
I find it HARD to believe after playing this game for a year... and have not run into a competent tank.
Look I had a slight advantage in playing a GF. I was introduced to the game by a friend who had been playing one since Beta and did not fall for many of the mistakes that most GFs make. This is not WoW static tanking does not work. Tjhe reason your GF lost aggro was likely that he was relying too heavilly on marks and not doing dammage in addition to maintain hard aggro. The mentality of gathering aggro to take abuse, the 'tanky' tank. Will lose aggro. I do not static tank. I am usually lunging for more mobs and cleaving to keep their attention. The fact that your GF was using bull in that manner (GFs also can kick mops off cliffs and there it is worth slotting) kind of makes me doubt his ability. I don't have a CW. But I can say that when I use my HR the GWFs constantly lose aggro. I'm a nice guy so I move them back over to them. But a good GF can hold them for me. It is not that hard to believe you have had the experience you have. It sounds to me like you have been building CWF parties and that meta and approach to DD is incompatable with many other play styles.
This is not WoW static tanking does not work. Tjhe reason your GF lost aggro was likely that he was relying too heavilly on marks and not doing dammage in addition to maintain hard aggro. The mentality of gathering aggro to take abuse, the 'tanky' tank. Will lose aggro. I do not static tank. I am usually lunging for more mobs and cleaving to keep their attention. The fact that your GF was using bull in that manner (GFs also can kick mops off cliffs and there it is worth slotting) kind of makes me doubt his ability. I don't have a CW. But I can say that when I use my HR the GWFs constantly lose aggro.
I'm not sure what dps you use as a GF that you think it would take away agro from a CW or GWF. That is the main issue. If mark etc doesn't work (which it doesn't), then something else needs to be done for the class. A GF just doesn't really bring anything to the table. Getting agro is all about doing damage and then it's a matter of dispatching the mobs as fast as possible (i.e. GWF, CW, HR).
Mark alone does not work. Mark + Damage + The aggro bonus on lunge > just damage. AS I have witness with my HR. Who out damages the GWF sometimes and steakls aggro. Doing the same DPS (more really because the mobs are not wandering out of my AOE and I am not having to stop shooting to move them back to the GWF) a goood GF can hold them. When I am playing my GWF of course I use a different approach because it is a different class.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Mark alone does not work. Mark + Damage + The aggro bonus on lunge > just damage. AS I have witness with my HR. Who out damages the GWF sometimes and steakls aggro. Doing the same DPS (more really because the mobs are not wandering out of my AOE and I am not having to stop shooting to move them back to the GWF) a goood GF can hold them. When I am playing my GWF of course I use a different approach because it is a different class.
It STILL fails.
I am sorry to tell you my friend, but we as CWs know better than that.
No I've been playing this game for a year now. The CWF "meta" your talking about did not exist back then.
This has been a chronic issue with GFs since I've been in the game ALL the way back to the 8k Gear score range and has not changed.
This is not some "new" thing. This has been going on long before there were GWF/CW teams and GWF was considered subpar.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2014
Ok look,
It should be no secret at this point the CW is not really a controller, the only real control powers we had were mostly in our Dailys. And with the Action Point nerf those are not usable constantly like they used to be. So we can't cheat anymore and make something happen that's not in the class.
This meta didn't start as a blow things up mentality and burn as fast as you can. It started because we as CWs were no longer able to control dungeons alone. BUT GFs could never hold agro against that many mobs. And the Devs were merciless about it and its not changing anytime soon given the content of Icewind Dale. So we had to start stacking CWs just to survive.
With the Buff of GWFs suddenly we had a partner that could actually do what we needed AND make up for our lack of single target damage. Hence the advent of the CWF meta. Nowadays its for speed running because we're all so overgeared for most of the dungeons it doesn't matter as much. But its also highly effective when you combine their CC with ours. Then it all actually works well in the new content which is much harder and similar to the way things were when we were not so overgeared.
GFs were great so long as there were 8 or less mobs, but we're dealing with 8-20 or more in the late dungeons and even new content. You can't keep that kind of agro and never could.
Our option was to stack CWs, our brief CCs (1 second and 3 seconds, when combined in a Synergy with each other allow actual control, WHILE doing massive amounts of AoE damage to kill the weaker mobs). Granted the boss mobs took a lot longer, but eventually the GWF came in and filled those shoes, otherwise it would be the Rogue doing that had they not been nerfed into oblivion.
This could ALL change with ONE small thing... You guys being able to keep threat in a 15+ mob environment... you can't do that currently. So we have no other options than either the CWF meta or multi-CW stacking.
Hence why I've been pushing for improved agro control for GFs all this time, and why I am glad the Devs are finally looking into it.
I mainly play a GF and a CW, both at 15k+ GS. I will say that it takes a lot of work to be a successful GF. A lot more so than any of the other classes in my opinion. I have played all of the classes through to at least 60 and some epic dungeons. Having seen it from the differing perspectives, I will say that there are some groups that do not know how to work well with their GF and on the other hand there are some GFs who frankly are not very good. It is more glaring, I think, when you see a poor GF because there is usually only one in the party and when they are not fulfilling their role, it is noticeable. Rather than when one of the DPSers are not doing as well as they should be, it may be covered by the fact that another DPSer is more than making up for it.
The main reason LFG parties don't want GF's in their dungeon parties is because of speed, life steal, and GS inflation. These people are only looking for easy-mode to get loot as quickly as possible. For these it is not a question of 'Can we finish the dungeon?', it is 'How can we finish it the easiest and quickest way possible?'.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2014
Thats only what it is now that everyone is overgeared... not what it started as. Or the reasons for it.
If GFs COULD really control agro in a 15+ mob environment this would not be a problem... but they can't and thats what gets thrown at you in a upper tier dungeons and Icewind Dale.
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Well that's not the way that team works, but they do actually hold agro better. You can dump the mobs on the GWFs they'll be able to hold them there.
Still that's not why the GWF ends up being the better choice. On top the the agro control in mass mob situations you end up with in a GWF party... the GWF actually has AoEs of their own, and when you line up the mobs for them with Singularity they'll immediately prone them.
Unlike the GF Shield bash technique which throws the mobs halfway across the room, GWF just knocks them down a couple feet in front of them.
The CWs then throw in the Shards, which prones them again. The second GWF then prones more of them, The CWs move in with Steal Time, and the mobs never stand up for that long before they're almost dead.
Its not a matter of agro control but rather a series of knockdowns/prones/stuns/slows the CW/GWF team runs concurrent to one another, in place of Agro control that is lacking in the GFs.
Thus an improvement to the GF Shield AND increased Threat from the GF... as was mentioned in my second post on the thread the Devs are looking into will achieve the same thing, basically allowing the GF to actually hold agro in a mass mob situation. This is the problem with the GF at present.
Right now the CW/GWF team is actually not bothering with Agro control at all.
They play off each other as they both have only short term CCs. One second prones and stuns each. The CW doesn't really have any AoE crowd control and never has. But between the GWFs and CW they can maintain control of a room, neither one of the two alone can do it for very long. Combined they can do it indefinitely each with their one second prones and stuns, and still do massive damage between the two.
The CW/GWF team was designed for mass mobs, and togather they dispatch them handily. Which makes up for the lack of agro control in the game as a whole.
If the changes the Devs are talking about are actually introduced.... and GFs can really gain and hold agro control in mass mob situations for once. It will mean the return of the Protector and Guardian the GF was intended to be restoring the proper place of the Guardian Fighter in the group and his effectiveness in any party.
When it comes to the boss mobs or the stronger mobs in the pile that don't drop to a few AoEs... the GWFs take over at that point and go all out single target damage as their Single target damage is stronger than the CWs. Between the two they wreck dungeons as they are entirely designed around Mass Mobs.
The CWs only end up on top of Paingiver because they're damaging so many mobs at once... The GWF is actually doing more damage on an individual targets, which is why they handle the stronger mobs, while the CW AoEs the hordes of weak mobs.
As I said, I felt pretty useful in most dungeon and skirmish, but when you hit lvl 60 you will see what we are saying, I also went to all Treath Generating Feats and Powers to get aggro and stuff, but in T2, T1 and CN, MC, etc... ("High End" PVE) the "tanking" job get atleast 3x or 4x times harder, but I kinda understand you, my performance as a GF was pretty good to lvl 1 until 59, so I also thinked that it was matter that a lot ppl doesn't know how to build their GFs (which is also true), however, you i'll see.
But since I rolled a GWF 260 days ago I know what fun is in this game.
The GWF is superior to the GF in every way.
Unstoppable is way better than that bloody shield that breaks after 2 hits from a boss
Unstoppable works in a 360° arc, which is necessary due to the add fest in dungeons and AoE
GWF sprints out for harms way vs. sitting duck
GWF is self sustainable with high damage and a bit of life steal.
I still love and (a bit role-) play my dwarven GF, but only as a courtesy of my friends in game I can take him, he is really useless and slows the run down a bit.
The CW, TR, GWF all can make their living with life steal, so the only one kind of needing add control is the DC, which is in these days more a debuffer than a healer, see life steal.
So, I am sorry, but I think as the current game is you better take your GWF to level 60 soon, you will have much more fun in epic dungeons.
At the moment I'm testing a cleric which appears to be dealing with mobs much better than that fairy called "Great Weapon Fighter". His class should be named "Great Moron Fighter", IMO.
For all those years I've spent playing such games I've learnt one thing: if a character can't handle even the easiest mobs and dies even at the lowest levels with the initial skills the game gives you - he's not worthy. And the GWF already proved to be not worthy.
Its fairly foolish to judge an entire class based solely on how it played up to level 9. That is honestly not even enough time to judge much of anything. You dont even have your "Tab" power at that level.
Put simply, your impressions are wrong. GWFs are, in many respects, far better at soaking up damage then GFs. GF's mainly excel at taking large hits, they are extremely good at handling bosses. They, however, are fairly poor at soaking up hits from a swarm of adds and minions. A large number of little hits will break their shield far faster then one or two large hits. And being swarmed, also generally means you are being flanked and therefore hit on unshielded sides.
The GWF on the other hand, eats up damage like a pro. Being swarmed and abused by lots of little hits, is like candy to them. It fuels them and makes them truly unstoppable. In fact, a GWF with unstoppable running can easily soak up more damage, and for a longer duration then what any GF can block for.
In a dungeon with a hard hitting boss and limited to no adds, the GF might be king. But in our current dungeons, with swarms of adds the GWF is better able to handle them. Its just simple mechanics. A GF can hold until his shield breaks, they are strong initially but will eventually break under pressure. A GWF, on the other hand, gets stronger and is in effect fueled and improved by that very same pressure.
3 or 4 CC immune large AoE guys give a GF a hard time. I can handle them, with my GF, but in that time I do no damage, need potions and a healer.
With my GWF I walk in, do heavy damage and sprint if I am in red while not unstoppable.
I think GWF is easier there, does way more damage, more likely to not drop, does not need a potion every 12s and not depending on the DC.
I think GF is broken and no use at all. Sorry, but beyond approx. 13k average GS in the party the GF is a millstone to drag around.
He does damage like a cleric and the only thing he excels in - defense - is subject to heavy diminishing returns and a questionable narrow arc shield design that breaks easily.
Actually, even a decent GF can hold mob agro better. GWFs aren't as built for threat gen and agro gain/sustain than a good GF.
Are you talking about Bulls' Charge? That only hits one mob, and bad GWFs also run encounters like roar as well by the way. Plus, If youre talking about prones, both GWF and GF can now use those(frontline surge, not to mention Terrifying Impact).
Once again, GFs also capable of almost the same amount of stun/prone locking.
If youre not seeing much mob agro control from a GF, hes not doing his job is all. The best GFs out there make it their life's worth about holding a group in place through mob agro. And the reason this team(CW,GWF) is preferred is because of aoe dps and crowd control. The cw has the greatest crowd control methods in the game, bar none. That's why they are THE preferred pve class: they damage entire mobs as they control them down.
So true^. Ive seen those bad GFs that didn't build their tank to "tank". But ive also seen a CW not know what crowd control(lol) is by the same amount. It all comes down to "who didn't make their class to act like their class". Some people want to be on top of the paingiver board, instead of helping to finish the dungeon. As a class that doesn't have a role to fulfill, the GWF is the easiest with their aoe dps and toughness. But I think people in this game forget that classic dungeons in mmos follow a "tank, crowd controller, healer" sense of classic playstyle.
I just wanted to explain why I think someone might not want to have a GF in their party.
But again, the problem is that nothing needs to be tanked. So you either focus on "slightly less sucky dps", or on wholly useless tankiness. Plus it'll make solo content even more of a chore.
Sure, parties can work with someone doing the tanking, but they can work just as well (or even faster) by simply ignoring tanking as a concept and just mashing everything.
True. And THATS the problem with this game's dungeon design thus far. They want speed versus longevity, so aoe dps masters take the cake here.
Tl;Dr: problem now is DPS classes ALSO tank/regen a lot (with the right gear, obviously).
Neverwinter , open world PVE pre 60 is pretty meaningless, its by far the easiest game Ive seen to level up in, did my GWF in 17 hours during the double exp weekend, NON twinked, IE didnt spend a AD on him , just quest drops.
My CW run through in 3 days total time played, with no double exp points with again no AD spend on items, no twinking.
There is maybe 6 spots total on the maps that have some degree of difficulty, one you already mentioned is around the 9-10 level area of orc tower, you have like no powers yet, using quest drops ect and they hit hard. Once you get past that, its nothing.
Finding fault in any class pre 60 is hard, they are not fully fleshed out, blaming a healer , say at level 34 for not keeping you up is not their fault, DC's most powerful healing ability is Astral Shield , something they wont have yet, trying to keep a group up with healing word and astral seal is pretty hard at those levels. A DC is a side product healer as well, its not fully thier function, dont come in from another MMO thinking a DC is some RAID healing monster, its not thier total package, they do have some nice heals, but they are more of a blended buffing class with heals honestly. (a mesh of other games pure healer and pure buffer, this game doesn't have two separate classes of that , so you have the DC to cover both, sometimes poorly tbh)
MOST t2s can be run with GFs pretty darn easy without a lot of time differences, gear score covers all, people who dont want a GF , bah, RUN LEGIT, you can get any t2 run, doesnt matter of class or even gear score, YOU better determine where you are at, hitting 8.9k and running ToS with a GF isnt going to cut it probably. Prepare yourself , know your limitations and people wont care what gear score your at or anything. The beauty is , most legit players are going to leave the choice when your ready to run to you, Not weird GS limitations to run things like Pirate King and Fardelvers (Oh no that CW is 11.7 not 12 like we said, totally kick them.. there just isn't that much of a performance difference at such small gear score ranges, but you should see some people freak about 2-300 gear score.
Do you need a GF for them? NO! But you dont need a GWF, HR, TR or DC either, you may want some CWs, but you "dont" need them for most runs, they will however make it easier and speed it up. CW/GWF combo rules all right now, but doenst mean you "need" any of them to finish these runs. Ive done DC runs with no CWs, Ive done CW runs with no DCs or GWFs, Ive done GWF runs with all GWFs and a TR ect.. its pretty much all doable with enough gear score and really alot of times , its quicker then you think.
When I am on my DC I totally appreciate a GF for SP and FH end kiting, it allows me to be a buffer,debuffer . making them super easy on me and its way faster in the end, as Im pumping out Hallowed ground as quick as I can, because Im not running in stupid circles trying to kite, and I would need some support to take out archers still, GF can handle them all, with maybe a random FF to help him out, I can then lay down Divine Glow over and over with HG as much as possible.
The game doesnt need a tank, but it really doesnt need a healer either.. this game isnt set up for the holy trinity, which is part of the problem why some classes are really less played and less wanted.
Whats the fix? you will see 10000 forum posts about GFs, DCs, TRS ect ect.. some play better in PVP , some in PVE.. When Im on my GWF in domination.. do you know who I think is OP? pathfinder HRs and thier shift, shift, shift , healy encounters, whats the point of hitting for 20k just for them to heal it up over and over.. pain in the but.
Where we all come from is different angles, so people playing just the GF will find it a harder road, then others playing 2-3 different classes or more, since you can just jump around and getting a different version of the game play honestly.
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
Well Willie,
I can tell you right now having worked with both GFs and GWFs... the GFs whatever it is they do... throws them halfway across the room. The GWFs only dump them on their butts.
AND yes the GWF version hits up to 5 targets, I do not know what this power is, but they use it repeatedly in the dungeons I've been in.
The CWs Singularity... the GWFs prone them right out of the gate and don't throw them far enough to be a problem, unlike the GFs I've worked with. Then the Steal Time and Shards comes in. Then more prones, slows and stuns from the GWFs.
That's the tactic and how it actually works and why the Pair is such a good team.
I can tell you right now, having experienced this from the CW side... because it directly has affected me nearly every time in GF groups. The GFs CAN hold agro... but only on a few mobs. Once you start getting mass spammed by mobs they get overloaded and cannot handle it anymore.
THATS what really happens. I know you WANT to be good at agro control, and ARE good at agro control on a few mobs... BUT once you get spammed you CANT handle them all. And I end up getting whammied as a mage. You can't protect me, and never could.
That is why I have been pushing for the mass mob agro control for some time for GFs. YES YOU DO NEED THIS. YOU CANT DO IT I know so from having worked with so many of you, this is your shortcoming in Agro Control.
Frontline Surge is a paragon encounter for the Iron Vanguard path, available to both GFs and GWFs. It's the one that hits 5 targets proning them with a slight knockback/scatter. The only difference in effect between the two classes is that the GWF's FLS hits a lot harder. The power you're thinking of is what Willie said, Bull Charge, the 50 pt. encounter available only to GFs. It's a single target rush that then throws the target back a good distance. Like most knockback powers, it's good for soloing and PVP but shouldn't be on the bar in PVE group play except for certain circumstances. So basically it's not that GFs have the 'bad' power and GWFs have the 'good' one. They both can have the 'good' one but clueless GFs will also be using the 'bad' one.
Second you are discussing a particular party composition which is popular because if everyone follows the script it is easy. You only think you have control because the CW is using their control to keep the mobs with you. Since your only control is damage you will see this the second you run without 2+ CWs backing you up. And then complain that the HR 'stole' your aggro. A skilled GF in the same composition will be able to hold aggro.
Which comes to the final point. Skill. A moderately talented party composed of CWFs can run any content in the game by following a well known script. A skilled GF can work in any composition. Really I have a rule of three. If I can find two other skilled players of any class then we can add 2 more anything and complete a delve.
Likely then it was Bull Rush.
....And I am not a GWF...
I AM the CW you've been failing to protect for about a year now after you get spammed with more than 7 mobs... which is pretty much all the upper tier dungeons. I AM the CW who is working with the GWFs. Little secret on our side... our CCs don't last very long.
You've got the Shards Prone (1 second)... and a whopping 3 second stun with Steal Time, that's the only AoE you've got for CC. So the GWFs takes over in between. That is reality. We're no more a controller than any other class.
It is not CWs alone that do this... because WE can't keep anything locked down either without stacking a bunch of us togather we're not the "controllers" you throught we were. Our actual AoE controls are no better than yours. We DO have AoE damage though.
Maybe you can answer me then...
Why is it every GF I've ever played with loses agro after about 6-8 mobs. No exceptions...
Something is not gelling here with what you're telling me. I cannot claim to be knowledgeble on the specifics of GF powers... I AM however the CW you've repeatedly failed to protect in any kind of Mass Mob situation. I know very well what you cannot do as I am always on the recieving end of it and have to cover that.
I find it HARD to believe after playing this game for a year... and have not run into a competent tank.
I'm not sure what dps you use as a GF that you think it would take away agro from a CW or GWF. That is the main issue. If mark etc doesn't work (which it doesn't), then something else needs to be done for the class. A GF just doesn't really bring anything to the table. Getting agro is all about doing damage and then it's a matter of dispatching the mobs as fast as possible (i.e. GWF, CW, HR).
It STILL fails.
I am sorry to tell you my friend, but we as CWs know better than that.
No I've been playing this game for a year now. The CWF "meta" your talking about did not exist back then.
This has been a chronic issue with GFs since I've been in the game ALL the way back to the 8k Gear score range and has not changed.
This is not some "new" thing. This has been going on long before there were GWF/CW teams and GWF was considered subpar.
It should be no secret at this point the CW is not really a controller, the only real control powers we had were mostly in our Dailys. And with the Action Point nerf those are not usable constantly like they used to be. So we can't cheat anymore and make something happen that's not in the class.
This meta didn't start as a blow things up mentality and burn as fast as you can. It started because we as CWs were no longer able to control dungeons alone. BUT GFs could never hold agro against that many mobs. And the Devs were merciless about it and its not changing anytime soon given the content of Icewind Dale. So we had to start stacking CWs just to survive.
With the Buff of GWFs suddenly we had a partner that could actually do what we needed AND make up for our lack of single target damage. Hence the advent of the CWF meta. Nowadays its for speed running because we're all so overgeared for most of the dungeons it doesn't matter as much. But its also highly effective when you combine their CC with ours. Then it all actually works well in the new content which is much harder and similar to the way things were when we were not so overgeared.
GFs were great so long as there were 8 or less mobs, but we're dealing with 8-20 or more in the late dungeons and even new content. You can't keep that kind of agro and never could.
Our option was to stack CWs, our brief CCs (1 second and 3 seconds, when combined in a Synergy with each other allow actual control, WHILE doing massive amounts of AoE damage to kill the weaker mobs). Granted the boss mobs took a lot longer, but eventually the GWF came in and filled those shoes, otherwise it would be the Rogue doing that had they not been nerfed into oblivion.
This could ALL change with ONE small thing... You guys being able to keep threat in a 15+ mob environment... you can't do that currently. So we have no other options than either the CWF meta or multi-CW stacking.
Hence why I've been pushing for improved agro control for GFs all this time, and why I am glad the Devs are finally looking into it.
The main reason LFG parties don't want GF's in their dungeon parties is because of speed, life steal, and GS inflation. These people are only looking for easy-mode to get loot as quickly as possible. For these it is not a question of 'Can we finish the dungeon?', it is 'How can we finish it the easiest and quickest way possible?'.
If GFs COULD really control agro in a 15+ mob environment this would not be a problem... but they can't and thats what gets thrown at you in a upper tier dungeons and Icewind Dale.