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Why people refuse to take tank in a dungeon party?
rado84
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
My main character is (for the moment) level 57 and he's a Guardian Fighter. So far I've never had problems finding a party but another player told me nobody wants to take GF and GWF in a party. So, my question to those people, if they read here, is: why? Don't you, people, realize that if it's not the tank class to keep the monsters busy and take the agro on themselves, you all are as good as dead? Fine, you won't take a GF or a GWF in a dungeon and you're all wizards, clerics or the other classes. But when you don't have enough physical defense (and 90% of the monsters and bosses in dungeons are physical damage beings) - how do you think you're gonna survive long enough to clear the entire dungeon? Without physical defense it's simply impossible to survive.
Here's an example: that player who told me what I wrote above - we played together in a regular dungeon. For the entire time were inside, he died a few times while I didn't die even once because:
• My Cleric companion was enough to sustain me 99% of the time.
• I have a shield which blocks the most of the damage.
Even when I'm attacked by magical creatures, the shield still blocks the most of the damage they would deal to me. For instance, if the creature usually deals 2000 physical damage, if I block with the shield he deals 1000, sometimes even less than that.
Oh, I almost forgot to mention that skill a GF has - to intercept half of all the damage you would suffer from an AI thus keeping the entire party alive a lot longer. Also, in combination with the highest defense, there's the amount of hit points GF has (I don't know about the hit points and the defense of GWF, I just started growing one) and which none of the other classes have.
My point is that this attitude towards tank characters is really unfair. After all, every f*cking MMORPG on the internet has tank classes and each class has his own role in a party.
Not long ago someone asked in the LFG channel for members for a dungeon. I PMed him and told him I'm willing to join. When I said I was a GF he insulted me and said he was looking only for clerics and wizards. Back then I didn't associate that insult with the reluctance of people to play together with tanks because at the time I didn't know about the class discrimination in this game. I laughed at him and wished him and his pancake party good luck. About 20 minutes later the same individual PMed me asking me to join them. I suppose he did it because his pancake party wasn't so almighty, after all. And a party of 2 clerics and 3 wizards is nothing else but a pancake party. Five pancakes, actually.
Here's an example: that player who told me what I wrote above - we played together in a regular dungeon. For the entire time were inside, he died a few times while I didn't die even once because:
• My Cleric companion was enough to sustain me 99% of the time.
• I have a shield which blocks the most of the damage.
Even when I'm attacked by magical creatures, the shield still blocks the most of the damage they would deal to me. For instance, if the creature usually deals 2000 physical damage, if I block with the shield he deals 1000, sometimes even less than that.
Oh, I almost forgot to mention that skill a GF has - to intercept half of all the damage you would suffer from an AI thus keeping the entire party alive a lot longer. Also, in combination with the highest defense, there's the amount of hit points GF has (I don't know about the hit points and the defense of GWF, I just started growing one) and which none of the other classes have.
My point is that this attitude towards tank characters is really unfair. After all, every f*cking MMORPG on the internet has tank classes and each class has his own role in a party.
Not long ago someone asked in the LFG channel for members for a dungeon. I PMed him and told him I'm willing to join. When I said I was a GF he insulted me and said he was looking only for clerics and wizards. Back then I didn't associate that insult with the reluctance of people to play together with tanks because at the time I didn't know about the class discrimination in this game. I laughed at him and wished him and his pancake party good luck. About 20 minutes later the same individual PMed me asking me to join them. I suppose he did it because his pancake party wasn't so almighty, after all. And a party of 2 clerics and 3 wizards is nothing else but a pancake party. Five pancakes, actually.
Post edited by rado84 on
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For whatever reason they did not account for mass mobs in GFs agro control. Mass mobs basically throw every other class in the game for a loop except for CWs who are designed specifically as AoE specialists. So everyone ends up stacking CWs and GWFs rather than other classes who don't function as well there.
But it appears the Devs are looking into fixes for this one... in PvE.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?636721-So-what-is-going-to-be-done-about-guardian-fighters.
The specific post by the Devs concerning this is on page 13...
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?636721-So-what-is-going-to-be-done-about-guardian-fighters/page14
So finally GFs will be able to take their rightful place in dungeons as a actual agro control/protector class. Something they were sadly lacking prior.
So look forward to some good changes that will Likely make GFs useful in dungeons again and restore them to what it is they were able to bring to a party in all other games.
I've been trying to push for this for some time too.
I don't know whether you understood what I meant but I hope you did.
1. Aggro control. In the epic dungeons the number of mobs means that you can only control so many of them. The rest will pound the spell casters mercilessly.
2. Damage. A GF does not do enough damage to help burn down the bosses or the mobs fast enough to keep the party from being overwhelmed. You will be surprised at how many more mobs there are in an epic dungeon.
3. Block. It doesn't last very long in epic dungeons. All your shield and armour do for you in epic dungeons is leave you as a nice looking corpse. Unlike in normal dungeons, the floor will at times turn into a sea of red that you just can't run fast enough to get out of.
4. Speed. Your too slow to keep up with those who do nothing but run through the dungeon for profit.
5. GWF. They do more damage, can kite better, and take more damage than GF at the epic levels.
What you can do is mitigate any one of these issues depending on how you build your character, but you cannot mitigate all of them. I enjoy playing my GF, it is quite challenging, but the Devs certainly need to work on some aspects of the class.
gf r much more helpful to a party then cw or gwf in my opinion. any1 that rfuse to take a gf to a dungeon has no idea how the system works.
when u reach lvl 60 seek the legit channel i promise u u will find loads of god ppl willing to add u to their party
cheers.
This person was an idiot.
Firstly, everyone wants to take GWFs. GWFs are massively OP and facerollingly easy to demolish content with (they're also heaps of fun to play).
This immediately calls all his advice into question.
It is true that GFs are not usually requested for groups, though, and this is because they're totally unnecessary. Nothing in the game needs to be tanked. And the stuff that you CAN tank, you can't tank any better (and arguably, usually worse) than a GWF, anyway.
GFs can help bad parties fail slightly less hard, but usually just slow down good parties. Even the most party specced GF (KC armour, ITF, marking everything, possibly with a terror enchant, buffing all the team and debuffing all the monsters) will probably only just make up for the loss of an extra dps class.
Also, you're level 57. This is a very misleading state to be in. Epic dungeons change the meta quite a bit. In the higher epics you'll find that your shield needs to be used quite carefully, and that the lack of any dodge can really, really suck sometimes.
Also, knight's valor is absolutely AWESOME at killing yourself instantly, unless your team is good.
And if your team is good, you probably don't need KV anyway.
But GFs aren't useless, by any means, and in non-speedrun runs, they're just fine. So as lemonchill advises, join legit and play the game less speedrunny.
Here's a simple fact - with a GWF until I reached level 9 I died twice from regular mobs. With the GF the first time I died was at level 40 because of a devs mistake - send a level 40 character to fight level 43 mobs who always attack together - those lizard-like things on one of the maps. After that death of mine the next death was at level 55.
But if you like to believe GF is useless - that is your choice. I've built my GF in such a manner that it takes 20 volcanic mobs to take me down and until they do it I always manage to kill 5-6 of them.
I don't know about epic dungeons, though. I don't even know whether I'll play these or not. But the facts are the facts - GF doesn't die as often as the rest of the classes.
You're right... but that's the part you don't understand and how much the Epic Dungeons change everything.
Epic dungeons are all about the party and keeping it alive. It doesn't matter HOW much damage you can take if it means the party failed the dungeon.
Here's how it works...
GF runs in and starts tanking adds.... more and more adds show up. Pretty soon the entire party is overwhelmed... the cleric drops... your healing drops... YOU drop. Because you can't keep all those mobs from overwhelming the party.
You need what's called a Force Multiplier... something that turns a small group into a much larger one. ie... the reason for the CW and GWF who combined have both control from the 1 second prones and stuns of the CW, to the GWF stunning, proning and slowing in their AoEs which while the GWFs are limited to only 5 targets the CWs are limited to 10 mobs. The GWFs has a lot more single target damage than the CW so it creates a perfect balance between the two where one handles the weaker mass mobs, and the GWF handles taking down the Elites and Boss Mobs.
Its a good synergy... unfortunately that excludes the a lot of other classes like GF who can neither control mass mob agro NOR dish out nearly the damage of the GWF.
Clerics are always welcome because their Buffs increase the damage of the CW and GWF to an enormous degree they cannot achieve without one.
Which leaves the Nerfed Rogues out of the equasion, and the GF.
If the GF could control mass mob agro and their shield worked better, they'd be the protector specialist they were supposed to be. But there' SO MANY mass mobs thrown at you in the highest level dungeons, the GF cannot keep up, and soon the party gets overwhelmed and dies.
That would be it in a nutshell.
1) a less squishy Block (at least in PvE, really c'mon)
2) a better aggro feature (more than the "limited number of mobs" atm)
One suggestion is : give a GF a DAMAGE MULTIPLIER for x-mobs he is skill aggroing. Now THAT would be a nice PvE rebalance for his subpar damage. Be it up to 1000%? I don't care, GF deserve this feature. Why multiaggroing if you're just putting up the same block/damage vs multiple dmg incoming to you? The hell?
Also a block that scales (adds at least) with the numbers of aggroed mob would be due.
Btw I am a HR, and at least so far (59 now) I always liked GFs in dungeons/skirmishes.
As for epic dungeons - soon we'll see how long my build will survive there.
Just for inquiring, really no-hate here: did you try the skirmish with the Mind Flayers yet? (sorry do not remember the name). It's intended for 57-60 but to me it felt like "9k+ GS only", it was coooompletely different from all the others before, even Retake The Bridge that was annoying as hell (first skirmish with uber dodging aoes and lots of tough adds)
Belive me, I made my GF recently, I felt very useful in normal dungeons by holding the 90% of the mob, but when you hit lvl 60 you will see the true face of GF, lack of mobility, shield breaks too fast, mobs hiting you by 1-3k (so you can't hold a lot of them), aggroing mob is 3x times harder and we have extremely low DPS (compared to GWF which can Tank and Deal 4x our Damage at the same time). As good as you feel in normal dungeons is how bad you will feel in epic ones, at best GF is usefull on T1.
It's pretty sad to say, but entire room pulls can't be done with GF, and with high geared people with lifesteal, u don't have to tank anything anyway.... even bosses are too slow, easy to predict that GF are not needed on them... The saddest here is also that MC and VT final bosses are almost all about of dps...
So, when a game does not implement any mechanic making someone useful, he is not invited...
to be honest with you, and so sorry about that, one of the only epic where you will be invited is frozen heart, because a tank kites well... but it's all about running and as a DC i can do this too, so GF aren't necessary anyway...
Well, actually I did bring him out of retirement briefly, just to get the GF class artifact, just in case it would be useful for one of my other characters. As a side note, doing the class artifact quest with him was a pain - much harder and slower than doing it with my DC.
Even if most teams don't start their T2 dungeons by wanting a GF, some of them run into hiccups and start disbanding, and then I can simply queue into a dungeon.
If you think GFs can't hold aggro, either that player ain't good or you haven't met a good one.
If your GWF dies that fast, you're doing something wrong. Seriously.
1. The GWF does a lot of damage, is a lot of fun to play and has a high survivability with life steal and my trusty leprechaun companion. I also NEVER tank as the GWF, but focus on pure DPS. I honestly don't know why people say GWFs are tanks. They have armor and life steal, yes, but every class has that. Even rogues. So as long as you let me stay DPS with my GWF, I'm usually on the top 3 most damage dealth and enemies killed, and the least downed player.
2. I used to love my GF, and she's still fun solo. But dungeons? Forget it. That's not happening. The reason is so simple as I require a cleric to heal me, but after 20+ dungeons in a row with barely getting any healing at all, I gave up. For whatever reason, clerics refuse to heal me. It pissed me off at first, but I eventually and quite reluctantly accepted it and moved on.
(edit: though I do remember fondly a fight with Runs-Red-Howling in the Pit Fight skirmish. It was just me (a GF) and him, one on one, throught the entire fight. Everyone else was dealing with the other mobs. It was by far my most memorable and enjoyable fight to date. Both my swordarm and shieldarm got some serious practice, and I nearly soloed him. Almost too bad the rest of the party joined in and helped kill him in the end. If it had been just me and him, it would have taken forever to kill him, but I would have done it.)
Also, keep in mind most random people are complete morons. Last night, I specifically asked to join a group without lvl 60 players, yet got stuck in a group with one lvl 60 and one lvl 58. (I was lvl 53ish.) I tried the dungeon again today, and guess what? We got TWO lvl 60s to join us, despite me saying I really didn't want any of them. I prefer the challenge. I then continued saying I strongly prefer taking my time, don't rush in an.... nope, both lvl 60s had charged ahead into the NEXT fight, ignoring the one we're already in. They can handle it, so sure the rest of us can too? On top it, that ******bag tried telling us not to pick up green items for whatever reason only he knows. He's now on my long ignore-list.
The point is there are a lot of people playing this game, and "everyone" is an expert, despite everyone having their own opinion on what's good and what's not. One guy might laugh at you for doing one thing, while another praise you for doing the same thing. Literally, one guy called me the best GWF he's seen, and another one said I didn't have a clue what I was doing. So who to believe? I stick to neither and only do dungeons with people that seem nice. If they stick to pancake-mode more than five minutes into the dungeon, I quit and find another party instead.
I personally LOVE having a gf on my side either in pvp or pve. The group's survivability increases by alot imo. Regarding your need for tanks thingy, I cant imagine a bunch of low hp's running about and tanking the bosses on their own. Someones gotta save their buts :rolleyes:
The current mechanics(at least in many dungeons) are to burn down the boss and adds as fast as possible. Unfortunately, the sheer number of adds will quickly overwhelm a GF's defenses. Usually the GWFs will take down a boss while the CWs deal with adds. Therefore...there really isn't much room or need for a GF as current mechanics stand.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
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As long as you have DPS or a single DC, you can to the two current endgame dungeons, MC and VT because both of these fights require single target DPS.
GF just don't have the dps of the other classes or the support of the DC class. Tanking isn't required in this game like it is in some other MMOs. It's actually a good thing IMO and makes the dungeons more dynamic on an individual level.
GFs get the short end of the stick here because they really are built for tanking and some agro with lower dps than other classes. They really should just increase their single target dps to be equal to the other classes and it wouldn't be a problem to tag them along in any dungeon.
As it stands right now the only two dungeons I actually prefer to have a GF if I can help it are FH and SP.
The rest still up-and-coming!
He only played GWF until level 8, before a GWF is able to use Unstoppable.
I still end up tanking sometimes.
Fighters are fine.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
I agree. The character that is the funniest to play as, is the GF.
Someone above mentioned "most memorable" battle. I had one of that kind too - between the levels of 30 and 40. There was a boss that was taller than the size of my screen (the biggest thing I've seen so far) and all the time I was able to see only his waist. The rest of the boss was way above the screen limit, so I couldn't even see his hit points bar. The rest of my party said things from "there's no way we can kill that" to "it's time to die infinitely today". Even I had my doubts I'd be able to kill it. But with the proper sequence of used skills I managed to kill that boss in under a minute while the others were licking their wounds nearby and some said it was impossible I would kill that thing so fast without dying. And yet, I beat the odds. For the entire battle with that skyscraper I used only 1 potion to heal myself. Everything else was the message "blocked", "blocked", "blocked"...
I don't know about the others but THIS is what I call "fun". And most surely GF is a character I wouldn't replace for anything in the world.