This should always be the approach to class balance. The benefit of the BiS environment is that it has a much lower rate of variances. I agree that it would be foolish to dismiss an environment that consistently offers a zero variance perspective on class balance. However, in Neverwinter, there is that breaking point where becoming too powerful can create balance issues that otherwise would not exist.
In the past I think changes have been made which ignored this fact and the results panned out to be more harmful than good. Lashing Blade is a good example of this. This is why I cannot support balancing the game in regards to the BiS environment.
The CW is not nearly as underpowered in normal PvP as it is when it goes beyond that breaking point. Everyone should recognize this and realize that a balanced CW in a 5v5 Domination with BiS Premades is going to be extremely difficult to manage without having too much of an impact on the rest of the game.
Instead, let's change the PvP meta-game to be more adaptable to the CW, who I think we can all agree is having a harder time fitting into 5v5 Domination than other classes, regardless of average/above-avg/best gear environments. Its a change that is completely independent of tricky balancing acts and also would not impact one portion of the player base differently than another:
10v10 PvP !
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
this forum has become a massive waste of time due to idiot trolls like willie,
top tier pvp BiS premades is what everyone should be striving to do, and be a part of. If its horribly unbalanced then what is the point in trying to progress.
if it was posssible for cw to have 50-50 chance with perma tr or sent gwf i would drop my tr in a sec and roll pvp cw right away.
or even better stop playing whats the point having a class that isnt viable in any way.
then you obviously do not know how to play a HR.. let me enlighten you
Agile Hunter: combat feat:
Your melee Encounter powers reduce cooldowns of your ranged Encounter powers by .2/.4/.6./.8/1 second(s).
each hit of fox shift reduces the CD of your ranged abilitys by 1 second. EACH hit.... this allows for double thorn wards (because they dont refresh and can stack) and a CD of 7 seconds on constricting arrow, so you're argument of "high" CD rates on cw's is meaningless if HRs are still faster
And, once again, another person who doesn't know to read(at least I now have a better understanding of who now).
You may have pretended to throw your intelligence in this thread, but your lack of reading here belies your false trolling of me at this point is negligible and pointless.
1)For the umpteenth time, the OP was explaining of the low cooldown WITHOUT adding the input that other abilities had to be put in effect before. As has been said, many times, it looked like HE WAS TALKING ONLY ABOUT CONSTRICTING ARROW, WITHOUT ANY INPUT OF COMBOS/ABILITIES/FEATS/SETUPS BEFOREHAND. Let me enlighten YOU on something: Take your HR, sit him in any spot w/o combat(not at a campfire either), and just look at his BASE, NON-MODIFIED COOLDOWN RATE OF CONSTRICTING ARROW... Does it say 5.7 seconds? Thought so...
2)Agile Hunter combat feat means:
-I have to have it in the first place(no thanks, prime critical and stormstep work fine for me, thanks).
-I have to have hit my target with melee first(once again, talking about just Constricting Arrow, I know HRs have great cooldown reducing abilities).
3)Use of proper stormstep action with seismic shot ALSO results in multiple thorns/split the skies, if used at the right time. Each target hit reduces cooldown, and each critical(once again, prime critical) results in cooldown reduction.
4)My argument was never that they were high(seriously, do people even read... sigh), but CONSTRICTING ARROW BY ITSELF IS INFERIOR TO CW'S CONSISTENT ROTATION OF CONTROL IF YOU JUST JUDGE THEM BY THEIR BASE COOLDOWN RATES. Youre argument is ONLY valid if you tie in the combo of your feats/class features, HR rotations. This is entirely possible if used this way "I don't even see where I'm wrong. I merely stated that I could, with the correct rotation/build, get my CA down to 5.6 seconds, which is entirely true." You DID NOT open up with this statement, and I addressed and recorrected when you FINALLY stopped being so vague.
What was said, and hence why I have to explain this, yet again(sigh), was: "HRs don't *need* to follow up with additional cc, because CA is all they need to render a CW helpless to use their best spells. CWs by contrast need to chain a bunch of spells together to achieve the same effect." This implies that CA, and CA BY ITSELF is considered on equal terms to a CW using all of their cc in rotation. THIS is not true.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Hmmmm any debate on balance should purely be about top tier pvp, thats where it matters because it where the game mechanics are used to their maximum, and its what people care about.
Even if it does not represent the majority of the community.
Have you ever heard of an Esport that balances its game in relation to the majority, to the beginers?
Games like Starcraft, League of Legends, Dota have always looked and balanced their game in relation to the top level of play and thats what make their games work.
When the game's potential is used to its maximum thats when you can see where the balance truly stands
It's simple logic I don't see how that is hard to see.
Now to give some credit to my opinion
In questions to Cws I play one as my main since the first week of this game and have been arguably one of the longest standing top lvl PvPver in the game.
When it comes to balancing cw's, I think making their skills work as intended, like making arp work and maybe even shard not disappear, i think that's a no brainer.
As to further buffs to cw's it is true they do not fair to well against any other class but that problem may not lie in the cw's department, I would say tread carefully.
Hmmmm any debate on balance should purely be about top tier pvp, thats where it matters because it where the game mechanics are used to their maximum, and its what people care about.
Even if it does not represent the majority of the community.
Have you ever heard of an Esport that balances its game in relation to the majority, to the beginers?
Games like Starcraft, League of Legends, Dota have always looked and balanced their game in relation to the top level of play and thats what make their games work.
When the game's potential is used to its maximum thats when you can see where the balance truly stands
It's simple logic I don't see how that is hard to see.
Now to give some credit to my opinion
In questions to Cws I play one as my main since the first week of this game and have been arguably one of the longest standing top lvl PvPver in the game.
When it comes to balancing cw's, I think making their skills work as intended, like making arp work and maybe even shard not disappear, i think that's a no brainer.
As to further buffs to cw's it is true they do not fair to well against any other class but that problem may not lie in the cw's department, I would say tread carefully.
The problem with this is that youre forgetting something: skill. Not every person who isn't high end, premade, pugstomping pvp guilds is bad either. People dismiss the fact that good players just do not have the time, money, social capabilities to play with these upper crust people, but pug cuz they often have to. Yes, its lonely and balanced(as far as just equating gear)at the top. But, not everyone NOT on the mountain is a total ****, just cuz hes not in rank 10 enchants, with legendary artifacts. Skill also determines if someone's better or worse, not just gear. Im sure if I say(hypothetically) I bought someone's account with a 22k gs BiS, steamroller build gwf, I bet I would lose to you(assuming youre Alt?, despite the difference in gear). In a similar fashion I have stomped everything from low geared gwfs, to gwfs a little bit (2k or so) higher than me. Skill is NOT determined by gear. I have actually proven that both from losing to someone lower geared than me, and beating someone higher geared than me.
Im not saying this is always the ideal though. Skill only goes so far, but I know anyone, and I mean ANYONE can blow no matter the gear. Youd be surprised how many times, in PvE AND PvP, ive seen high geared, wallet warriors complain when their bought gear/toon didn't do diddly, and I was called a cheater just because a little ole 14k CW beat a big, bad 16k GWF who bought his gear.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
I am not forgetting anything ... I said utilizing all the games mechanics, which also means skill, not only are their many people that can compete on the top lvl with unmaxed gear, only a very small percentage of people with maxed out gear can compete at that lvl.
So actually, almost everything that im implying is in relation to skill, not gear.
To add you pretty much use this argument in your thread to undermine what you were trying to say in the first place ...
Not only this, but also this brings me back to the initial point that at the highest lvl of pvp for the most part people are using maxed out gear or close, which takes the gear component out of the equation and thus leaves skill and class potential, and thus where the balance must be made
And, once again, another person who doesn't know to read(at least I now have a better understanding of who now).
You may have pretended to throw your intelligence in this thread, but your lack of reading here belies your false trolling of me at this point is negligible and pointless.
1)For the umpteenth time, the OP was explaining of the low cooldown WITHOUT adding the input that other abilities had to be put in effect before. As has been said, many times, it looked like HE WAS TALKING ONLY ABOUT CONSTRICTING ARROW, WITHOUT ANY INPUT OF COMBOS/ABILITIES/FEATS/SETUPS BEFOREHAND. Let me enlighten YOU on something: Take your HR, sit him in any spot w/o combat(not at a campfire either), and just look at his BASE, NON-MODIFIED COOLDOWN RATE OF CONSTRICTING ARROW... Does it say 5.7 seconds? Thought so...
2)Agile Hunter combat feat means:
-I have to have it in the first place(no thanks, prime critical and stormstep work fine for me, thanks).
-I have to have hit my target with melee first(once again, talking about just Constricting Arrow, I know HRs have great cooldown reducing abilities).
3)Use of proper stormstep action with seismic shot ALSO results in multiple thorns/split the skies, if used at the right time. Each target hit reduces cooldown, and each critical(once again, prime critical) results in cooldown reduction.
4)My argument was never that they were high(seriously, do people even read... sigh), but CONSTRICTING ARROW BY ITSELF IS INFERIOR TO CW'S CONSISTENT ROTATION OF CONTROL IF YOU JUST JUDGE THEM BY THEIR BASE COOLDOWN RATES. Youre argument is ONLY valid if you tie in the combo of your feats/class features, HR rotations. This is entirely possible if used this way "I don't even see where I'm wrong. I merely stated that I could, with the correct rotation/build, get my CA down to 5.6 seconds, which is entirely true." You DID NOT open up with this statement, and I addressed and recorrected when you FINALLY stopped being so vague.
What was said, and hence why I have to explain this, yet again(sigh), was: "HRs don't *need* to follow up with additional cc, because CA is all they need to render a CW helpless to use their best spells. CWs by contrast need to chain a bunch of spells together to achieve the same effect." This implies that CA, and CA BY ITSELF is considered on equal terms to a CW using all of their cc in rotation. THIS is not true.
im just completely shocked that you think that is a valid argument.... the only time Cool Downs actually matter is in COMBAT.... this is a PvP thread right? im beginning to question you're intelligence on this matter.
So, in other words, your whole argument is based around deliberately making your HR suboptimal for PvP? And you didn't really seem to realize how good the HR cooldown reductions were previously in this topic, when you were talking about your "recovery set" but neglecting to mention any of the cooldown feats or features. You do understand how absurdly uninformed you are coming across as being? Yet you insist that others must listen to your opinion and have "sympathy" for trench-digging scrubs, while you do not show any indication of listening to others, or, for that matter, much consideration of other people's opinions, given your predilection for strawman arguments.
Im not copy/pasting the opinions you people have caught yourselves in anymore.
1)I never said make them suboptimal for PvP. Those are YOUR words, not throwing them in anyone's mouth.
2)And Im sorry to burst your bubble, but there was no previous talk about the recovery sets/feats/class features/combos put in past posts. Once again, you acted before thinking.
3)You insist when others post opinions to just throw out things without reiterating what youre comparing them too. "I can say Thorn Ward is the most OP power ever, and CWs can not equal it with all their powers combined". There, did you see what I did there? I posted something without talking about any combos related to it, any precise needed timing for it, any feats/combos necessary. If I posted that, youre saying no one would disagree with that? Or question as to how dumb it would seem to say how powerful that ability is ALONE?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
in 1v1 no they are not
but i have yet to see bis premades without cw in their team so they are viable in pvp
of course they are viable in pvp, dosent mean that they not disadvantaged in some respects and i dont think anyone in this thread has actually asked for more then fixing what is actually broken with cw like Arp
im just completely shocked that you think that is a valid argument.... the only time Cool Downs actually matter is in COMBAT.... this is a PvP thread right? im beginning to question you're intelligence on this matter.
And im shocked that so many people don't get that this is a CW thread, yet I have to repeatedly explain HR abilities. Im starting to wonder the intelligence of people who are continuing on an inside discussion, when it should've been resolved with the simple "Oh, I mistook your post, YOU worded it wrong, I shouldn't have to speak again about it, cuz its done/been explained".... I am wondering about people here. You guys are the equivalent of the people who argue "you said this!", and it when it was later discovered to be a simple missing of context, you come back an hour later with "you said this!", causing me to copy/paste and re-explain something that's been said OVER 6 TIMES OR SO.
To reiterate, once again: I mistook the argument because he implied that Constricting Arrow, AND ONLY CONSTRICTING ARROW, was on equal terms with CWs entire cc rotation. It, by itself, is not. It, with a combo of feats/class features/other power utilization IS actually superior, but only if used in rotation.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
willie you are doing SO much talking without any intelligent reasoning or thought behind you're statements
Says the person whos still talking about a conversation I technically ended approximately 5 pages ago, when my niece(shes frickin' 8 people!) is sitting beside me asking: "why are they still talking to you, you explained it"?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
of course they are viable in pvp, dosent mean that they not disadvantaged in some respects and i dont think anyone in this thread has actually asked for more then fixing what is actually broken with cw like Arp
See? Im not against this. Things just got way out of hand here. I know their Armor Pen and cc got skewered with tenacity.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
ya ok i really dont think fighting over who makes sense is productive in any way or form thank you
Sorry it seems that way, nice to see you Alt, please don't think bad of me. Just have gotten spun around too much on this topic, when it was a simple context misunderstanding between me and velynna.
Ill run this one quick then if youre still here.
1)need to fix armor pen
2)need to fix cc
3)need to fix damage(related to armor pen)
That's all that needed to be said, but I guess I got trapped by a couple of attempted ragers here.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Your very first post in this thread says otherwise: You didn't want CWs to be good in both PvE and PvP. And you were arguing *against* boosting CWs to be the best in PvP, despite the fact that no one at that point had expressed any desires like that.
Here's the thing(nice try on trying to put words in my mouth btw). Boosting something to be the best in PvE and PvP is NOT the same as boosting a class to be at least competitive(nice try on YOUR lame attempt at misrepresentation of what I said ). I never wanted them to be the weakest class but, as the OP concluded "why is my CWs dr/regen/hp INFERIOR TO A TANKS'?!"
If you'd posted this in the first place instead of all the nonsense you've been posting, along with all the raging you've been doing, you would have come across as less unreasonable.
And if you posted anything constructive, instead of flaming the discussion with phrases like "such and such abilities are OP, let's whine about that", I never would've needed to retort to your nonsensical flaming statements. It's people like you, who want everyone else nerfed, instead of the more balancing reasoning of "bring the CW up, not everyone else down". You see, people like you want to boost things too high, and end up with imbalanced pvp(GWFs weren't always the top pvp class, people seem to forget that).
P.S. I'm no longer going to cut/paste quote you. You can't even read your past posts, to realize your own mistakes, let alone anyone else's, imperfect as mine or others' may be.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Thats seems like a definitely logical and reasonable next step for game balancing
How about this too?
An encounter that functions like HRs Thorn Ward: a decent sized DoT AoE, that shows the TR(and only for CW), allowing them to be targeted(as long as they're in the AoE). Maybe even give it some healing qualities to the CW.
Just a suggestion...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
That's not what the OP concluded. You're misrepresenting again. But that's par for the course for you.
"Concluded" actually was the wrong word, more like "summarized". Congratulations, you actually took a post I said, and while still insulting, you didn't flame, other than the insult not needed.
I'm actually surprised... You didn't try a flame, just a loose, insulting troll. Weird.
None of what you just posted has any basis in reality. It is true that you've been polluting this thread, though. It's a shame the boards don't have an ignore function.
It's funny, because I've argued with people who have experience, and have responded to my posts(after we got over misunderstood contexts, in part by YOUR raging and trolling), with both merit and constructive criticism. YOU have done nothing but throw snide remarks, and attempts to turn this thread into a flame war.
I think if YOU were muted, back when you started this troll/flame war, maybe I could've not misunderstood velynna's context in the first place.
Sorry folks, I fell for this guys' <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> hook, line, and sinker.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Here's the thing(nice try on trying to put words in my mouth btw). Boosting something to be the best in PvE and PvP is NOT the same as boosting a class to be at least competitive(nice try on YOUR lame attempt at misrepresentation of what I said ).
I just want CW to be as competitive as GWFs or TRs at high end PVP. I could care less about which method cryptic goes with as there are a couple of different routes.
If the only way for a CW to be competitive is to make be as tanks, then so be it. Gameplay balance over lore.
as the OP concluded "why is my CWs dr/regen/hp INFERIOR TO A TANKS'?!"
By the way, you are misrepresenting what a lot of the CW community wants. We want CW to be just as competitive as any other class at high end PVP. I honestly don't care if you buff CW's health or buff its damage, or nerf other classes, or buff its CC, or change the PVP format or whatever. Like I said, there are lots of ways to do this. Please do not draw up a straw man argument of "HERP DERP IM A CW AND I WANN BE A TANK IN PVP HEHEHE" when what the CW community wants in reality is class balance.
control wizards will be getting some changes after module 3. we don't know what those changes will be, but we hope that they'll be fair balance changes in relation to making ArP work and to the other classes. whether this is going to make some people re-learn the way they play control wizard... we just do not know yet. chances are, the devs might have some ideas but they don't have anything official to report yet.
^ this is the basis of why balance discussions are difficult to have. some people come off sounding like they have an agenda and others come off sounding like they're trying to preserve a family secret. but until there is an official announcement or the devs put these changes up for testing, no one really has any real inside information. everything you're arguing about in this thread may change. it was almost a year ago when GWFs were in the same spot GFs are in right now and TRs were the cream of the crop. there were elusive TAB bugs on the GWF that intermittently occurred (and the TR as well!) and it took a seemingly long while for them to track that down for a fix. and it isn't like that anymore.
so... there's really no reason to get into heated arguments about this stuff. we already know that things are slated for change.
Comments
This should always be the approach to class balance. The benefit of the BiS environment is that it has a much lower rate of variances. I agree that it would be foolish to dismiss an environment that consistently offers a zero variance perspective on class balance. However, in Neverwinter, there is that breaking point where becoming too powerful can create balance issues that otherwise would not exist.
In the past I think changes have been made which ignored this fact and the results panned out to be more harmful than good. Lashing Blade is a good example of this. This is why I cannot support balancing the game in regards to the BiS environment.
The CW is not nearly as underpowered in normal PvP as it is when it goes beyond that breaking point. Everyone should recognize this and realize that a balanced CW in a 5v5 Domination with BiS Premades is going to be extremely difficult to manage without having too much of an impact on the rest of the game.
Instead, let's change the PvP meta-game to be more adaptable to the CW, who I think we can all agree is having a harder time fitting into 5v5 Domination than other classes, regardless of average/above-avg/best gear environments. Its a change that is completely independent of tricky balancing acts and also would not impact one portion of the player base differently than another:
10v10 PvP !
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
top tier pvp BiS premades is what everyone should be striving to do, and be a part of. If its horribly unbalanced then what is the point in trying to progress.
or even better stop playing whats the point having a class that isnt viable in any way.
And, once again, another person who doesn't know to read(at least I now have a better understanding of who now).
You may have pretended to throw your intelligence in this thread, but your lack of reading here belies your false trolling of me at this point is negligible and pointless.
1)For the umpteenth time, the OP was explaining of the low cooldown WITHOUT adding the input that other abilities had to be put in effect before. As has been said, many times, it looked like HE WAS TALKING ONLY ABOUT CONSTRICTING ARROW, WITHOUT ANY INPUT OF COMBOS/ABILITIES/FEATS/SETUPS BEFOREHAND. Let me enlighten YOU on something: Take your HR, sit him in any spot w/o combat(not at a campfire either), and just look at his BASE, NON-MODIFIED COOLDOWN RATE OF CONSTRICTING ARROW... Does it say 5.7 seconds? Thought so...
2)Agile Hunter combat feat means:
-I have to have it in the first place(no thanks, prime critical and stormstep work fine for me, thanks).
-I have to have hit my target with melee first(once again, talking about just Constricting Arrow, I know HRs have great cooldown reducing abilities).
3)Use of proper stormstep action with seismic shot ALSO results in multiple thorns/split the skies, if used at the right time. Each target hit reduces cooldown, and each critical(once again, prime critical) results in cooldown reduction.
4)My argument was never that they were high(seriously, do people even read... sigh), but CONSTRICTING ARROW BY ITSELF IS INFERIOR TO CW'S CONSISTENT ROTATION OF CONTROL IF YOU JUST JUDGE THEM BY THEIR BASE COOLDOWN RATES. Youre argument is ONLY valid if you tie in the combo of your feats/class features, HR rotations. This is entirely possible if used this way "I don't even see where I'm wrong. I merely stated that I could, with the correct rotation/build, get my CA down to 5.6 seconds, which is entirely true." You DID NOT open up with this statement, and I addressed and recorrected when you FINALLY stopped being so vague.
What was said, and hence why I have to explain this, yet again(sigh), was: "HRs don't *need* to follow up with additional cc, because CA is all they need to render a CW helpless to use their best spells. CWs by contrast need to chain a bunch of spells together to achieve the same effect." This implies that CA, and CA BY ITSELF is considered on equal terms to a CW using all of their cc in rotation. THIS is not true.
Even if it does not represent the majority of the community.
Have you ever heard of an Esport that balances its game in relation to the majority, to the beginers?
Games like Starcraft, League of Legends, Dota have always looked and balanced their game in relation to the top level of play and thats what make their games work.
When the game's potential is used to its maximum thats when you can see where the balance truly stands
It's simple logic I don't see how that is hard to see.
Now to give some credit to my opinion
In questions to Cws I play one as my main since the first week of this game and have been arguably one of the longest standing top lvl PvPver in the game.
When it comes to balancing cw's, I think making their skills work as intended, like making arp work and maybe even shard not disappear, i think that's a no brainer.
As to further buffs to cw's it is true they do not fair to well against any other class but that problem may not lie in the cw's department, I would say tread carefully.
in this case it is.
i dont mind a cw buff but put it up right next to perma tr in 1v1 no point having perma tr or gwf.
but i have yet to see bis premades without cw in their team so they are viable in pvp
The problem with this is that youre forgetting something: skill. Not every person who isn't high end, premade, pugstomping pvp guilds is bad either. People dismiss the fact that good players just do not have the time, money, social capabilities to play with these upper crust people, but pug cuz they often have to. Yes, its lonely and balanced(as far as just equating gear)at the top. But, not everyone NOT on the mountain is a total ****, just cuz hes not in rank 10 enchants, with legendary artifacts. Skill also determines if someone's better or worse, not just gear. Im sure if I say(hypothetically) I bought someone's account with a 22k gs BiS, steamroller build gwf, I bet I would lose to you(assuming youre Alt?, despite the difference in gear). In a similar fashion I have stomped everything from low geared gwfs, to gwfs a little bit (2k or so) higher than me. Skill is NOT determined by gear. I have actually proven that both from losing to someone lower geared than me, and beating someone higher geared than me.
Im not saying this is always the ideal though. Skill only goes so far, but I know anyone, and I mean ANYONE can blow no matter the gear. Youd be surprised how many times, in PvE AND PvP, ive seen high geared, wallet warriors complain when their bought gear/toon didn't do diddly, and I was called a cheater just because a little ole 14k CW beat a big, bad 16k GWF who bought his gear.
So actually, almost everything that im implying is in relation to skill, not gear.
To add you pretty much use this argument in your thread to undermine what you were trying to say in the first place ...
Not only this, but also this brings me back to the initial point that at the highest lvl of pvp for the most part people are using maxed out gear or close, which takes the gear component out of the equation and thus leaves skill and class potential, and thus where the balance must be made
and yes I am Alt
im just completely shocked that you think that is a valid argument.... the only time Cool Downs actually matter is in COMBAT.... this is a PvP thread right? im beginning to question you're intelligence on this matter.
Im not copy/pasting the opinions you people have caught yourselves in anymore.
1)I never said make them suboptimal for PvP. Those are YOUR words, not throwing them in anyone's mouth.
2)And Im sorry to burst your bubble, but there was no previous talk about the recovery sets/feats/class features/combos put in past posts. Once again, you acted before thinking.
3)You insist when others post opinions to just throw out things without reiterating what youre comparing them too. "I can say Thorn Ward is the most OP power ever, and CWs can not equal it with all their powers combined". There, did you see what I did there? I posted something without talking about any combos related to it, any precise needed timing for it, any feats/combos necessary. If I posted that, youre saying no one would disagree with that? Or question as to how dumb it would seem to say how powerful that ability is ALONE?
of course they are viable in pvp, dosent mean that they not disadvantaged in some respects and i dont think anyone in this thread has actually asked for more then fixing what is actually broken with cw like Arp
And im shocked that so many people don't get that this is a CW thread, yet I have to repeatedly explain HR abilities. Im starting to wonder the intelligence of people who are continuing on an inside discussion, when it should've been resolved with the simple "Oh, I mistook your post, YOU worded it wrong, I shouldn't have to speak again about it, cuz its done/been explained".... I am wondering about people here. You guys are the equivalent of the people who argue "you said this!", and it when it was later discovered to be a simple missing of context, you come back an hour later with "you said this!", causing me to copy/paste and re-explain something that's been said OVER 6 TIMES OR SO.
To reiterate, once again: I mistook the argument because he implied that Constricting Arrow, AND ONLY CONSTRICTING ARROW, was on equal terms with CWs entire cc rotation. It, by itself, is not. It, with a combo of feats/class features/other power utilization IS actually superior, but only if used in rotation.
Says the person whos still talking about a conversation I technically ended approximately 5 pages ago, when my niece(shes frickin' 8 people!) is sitting beside me asking: "why are they still talking to you, you explained it"?
See? Im not against this. Things just got way out of hand here. I know their Armor Pen and cc got skewered with tenacity.
Sorry it seems that way, nice to see you Alt, please don't think bad of me. Just have gotten spun around too much on this topic, when it was a simple context misunderstanding between me and velynna.
Ill run this one quick then if youre still here.
1)need to fix armor pen
2)need to fix cc
3)need to fix damage(related to armor pen)
That's all that needed to be said, but I guess I got trapped by a couple of attempted ragers here.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Here's the thing(nice try on trying to put words in my mouth btw). Boosting something to be the best in PvE and PvP is NOT the same as boosting a class to be at least competitive(nice try on YOUR lame attempt at misrepresentation of what I said
And if you posted anything constructive, instead of flaming the discussion with phrases like "such and such abilities are OP, let's whine about that", I never would've needed to retort to your nonsensical flaming statements. It's people like you, who want everyone else nerfed, instead of the more balancing reasoning of "bring the CW up, not everyone else down". You see, people like you want to boost things too high, and end up with imbalanced pvp(GWFs weren't always the top pvp class, people seem to forget that).
P.S. I'm no longer going to cut/paste quote you. You can't even read your past posts, to realize your own mistakes, let alone anyone else's, imperfect as mine or others' may be.
How about this too?
An encounter that functions like HRs Thorn Ward: a decent sized DoT AoE, that shows the TR(and only for CW), allowing them to be targeted(as long as they're in the AoE). Maybe even give it some healing qualities to the CW.
Just a suggestion...
"Concluded" actually was the wrong word, more like "summarized". Congratulations, you actually took a post I said, and while still insulting, you didn't flame, other than the insult not needed.
I'm actually surprised... You didn't try a flame, just a loose, insulting troll. Weird.
It's funny, because I've argued with people who have experience, and have responded to my posts(after we got over misunderstood contexts, in part by YOUR raging and trolling), with both merit and constructive criticism. YOU have done nothing but throw snide remarks, and attempts to turn this thread into a flame war.
I think if YOU were muted, back when you started this troll/flame war, maybe I could've not misunderstood velynna's context in the first place.
Sorry folks, I fell for this guys' <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> hook, line, and sinker.
I just want CW to be as competitive as GWFs or TRs at high end PVP. I could care less about which method cryptic goes with as there are a couple of different routes.
If the only way for a CW to be competitive is to make be as tanks, then so be it. Gameplay balance over lore.
By the way, you are misrepresenting what a lot of the CW community wants. We want CW to be just as competitive as any other class at high end PVP. I honestly don't care if you buff CW's health or buff its damage, or nerf other classes, or buff its CC, or change the PVP format or whatever. Like I said, there are lots of ways to do this. Please do not draw up a straw man argument of "HERP DERP IM A CW AND I WANN BE A TANK IN PVP HEHEHE" when what the CW community wants in reality is class balance.
^ this is the basis of why balance discussions are difficult to have. some people come off sounding like they have an agenda and others come off sounding like they're trying to preserve a family secret. but until there is an official announcement or the devs put these changes up for testing, no one really has any real inside information. everything you're arguing about in this thread may change. it was almost a year ago when GWFs were in the same spot GFs are in right now and TRs were the cream of the crop. there were elusive TAB bugs on the GWF that intermittently occurred (and the TR as well!) and it took a seemingly long while for them to track that down for a fix. and it isn't like that anymore.
so... there's really no reason to get into heated arguments about this stuff. we already know that things are slated for change.