pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
When people post about balancing your class and some of its abilities that might be OP/malfunctioning - they cry and QQ should obviously be disregarded.
When you face another class, and it has some ability that seems OP to you, and you make a post about it - it's legit feedback
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shunterinoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I really do not understand why people like you come here and start arguing without even carefully reading the posts about this topic. Because then you would recognize that there are enogh reports of SE doing that insane damage at almost full hp. (I have now made it bold and with underline). The issue is not a large hit at 1% hp lol.
There have been a lot of reports but zero vids or any actual evidence. Once a legit video of someone being hit for 40k when they're at 80% HP is posted then I'm sure people will start taking notice. Until then this is all just one lot of people trying to nerf another lot of people for their own gain.
There have been a lot of reports but zero vids or any actual evidence. Once a legit video of someone being hit for 40k when they're at 80% HP is posted then I'm sure people will start taking notice. Until then this is all just one lot of people trying to nerf another lot of people for their own gain.
I don't think it hits for 40K, but it does hit for 20-30K on 80-90% HP, if the TR is r8-10 with Perfect Vorpal. Non crits around 10K.
I mainly play action games in any platform (FPS, TPS, RPGs, Fighting Games, etc..) and I'm actually a fan of moves that either outright kill me or put me at death's door when I get hit.
There are other people like me who, If we can't get this kind of difficulty in a game, we try to get it by playing at the hardest difficulty or by outright gimping ourselves to kingdom come.
In contrast, there are also people who complain about this 'move' (enemy AI, weapon, boss move, character move) because they can't handle it.
Our general response to threads like those are :
"Have you tried dodging it?"
"Did you know you could prevent it?"
"Why get hit in the first place? lololol"
"Get quicker at aiming that Arctic Warfare Magnum (sniper rifle) so you cap the other guy before his kills you >_>"
"etc... etc... etc..."
At the end of the day, If said 'move' was preventable / dodgeable, I've only got myself to blame whenever I see a game over screen.
Okay, down to business (since I've typed up too much OT stuff lol)...
The OP mentions "I couldnt dodge it ". Which tells me we are dealing with yet another person with minimal knowledge of PvP complaining about abilities and this is, quite frankly, getting very old.
Oh great and knowledgeable sanesjka, how does one dodge / prevent Shocking Execution? And please, kindly post a video showing how it's done cause' if you can't... then well... you're probably talking about yourself in this line...
'Which tells me we are dealing with yet another person with minimal knowledge of PvP complaining about abilities and this is' LOL
PS. And don't bother with a method like my Counter Strike example of killing the other guy before he one-shots you cause obviously that cannot apply to all classes in PVP.
SE, For my rogue anyway , is next to useless I prefer things that keep my stealth meter up ,, I've found SE to be very dissappointing damage 6times out of 10 with an occasional proc that may or may not get the job done. Most damage I've ever seen from it is equal to the damage i get from lashing blade, so I don't bother with it,, its not as great as you think it is. in my opinion you problem is tenacity just like every other stat tend to only work some of the time. so it could be tenacity failing ,, not SE going through tenacity.
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willsommersMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 103
edited March 2014
Pers3phone is 100% right.
Which is why worst pvp in any game - ever. 2 maps. Boring no one does any damage. Run around try not to die. *yawn*. Devs want it to be "game challenged" friendly where it takes 40 hits to kill someone. Oh wow you did damage to someone? Awful, here have some tenacity while we reduce their damage.........
I have yet to see one positive change in this game, balance, mechanics, dungeons, pvp, etc. since beta.
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bobiwanMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I mainly play action games in any platform (FPS, TPS, RPGs, Fighting Games, etc..) and I'm actually a fan of moves that either outright kill me or put me at death's door when I get hit.
There are other people like me who, If we can't get this kind of difficulty in a game, we try to get it by playing at the hardest difficulty or by outright gimping ourselves to kingdom come.
In contrast, there are also people who complain about this 'move' (enemy AI, weapon, boss move, character move) because they can't handle it.
Our general response to threads like those are :
"Have you tried dodging it?"
"Did you know you could prevent it?"
"Why get hit in the first place? lololol"
"Get quicker at aiming that Arctic Warfare Magnum (sniper rifle) so you cap the other guy before his kills you >_>"
"etc... etc... etc..."
At the end of the day, If said 'move' was preventable / dodgeable, I've only got myself to blame whenever I see a game over screen.
Okay, down to business (since I've typed up too much OT stuff lol)...
Oh great and knowledgeable sanesjka, how does one dodge / prevent Shocking Execution? And please, kindly post a video showing how it's done cause' if you can't... then well... you're probably talking about yourself in this line...
'Which tells me we are dealing with yet another person with minimal knowledge of PvP complaining about abilities and this is' LOL
PS. And don't bother with a method like my Counter Strike example of killing the other guy before he one-shots you cause obviously that cannot apply to all classes in PVP.
Very simply? bait the TR into wasting it. I've survived SE's as a TR. Direct hit, shrugged, then killed the fool. The person you quote is correct, even without SE your doom was imminent *already* if it killed you.
If that SE didn't even exist that lashing blade or even PoB would have killed you anyway.
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shunterinoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I don't think it hits for 40K, but it does hit for 20-30K on 80-90% HP, if the TR is r8-10 with Perfect Vorpal. Non crits around 10K.
Funny how when asked for proof you suddenly get much more downplayed claims. So SE is outrageously overpowered and needs to be nerfed for everyone because of a small group of people with R10s and p.vorp. Well done on being so reasonable.
And even with the downsized claims, still no proof.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Funny how when asked for proof you suddenly get much more downplayed claims. So SE is outrageously overpowered and needs to be nerfed for everyone because of a small group of people with R10s and p.vorp. Well done on being so reasonable.
And even with the downsized claims, still no proof.
BTW I never saw any 40K hit claims. I already tested this with a TR friend (R7s and P.Vorpal), and he only threw some daggers, I assume to proc stuff, then SEed me at almost full HP (I have 20% Tenacity 35K HP 30% DR) and his normal hits were 10K-ish, his crits were 22-24K. Better equipped (differently specced?) TRs hit me, rarely, at almost complete HP for 30K or so.
You want proof for this?!?
I might ask some friend if I get in a match against them and Youtube it, if this is REALLY necessary. Jerkface's stream however has more than enough videos with shocking execution spam. I'd say go look at this and spare me the necessity of frapsing and uploading and asking favors just so you can see things already available on the web.
And yes, it's the geared TRs that count, but even the meh ones are still doing good damage with it.
The point, however is:
- every burst was tamed into the ground by Tenacity
- Shocking's burst is still the same?!?
So yeah, make this power to be in line with the others, affected by Tenacity as well.
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shunterinoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
BTW I never saw any 40K hit claims. I already tested this with a TR friend (R7s and P.Vorpal), and he only threw some daggers, I assume to proc stuff, then SEed me at almost full HP (I have 20% Tenacity 35K HP 30% DR) and his normal hits were 10K-ish, his crits were 22-24K. Better equipped (differently specced?) TRs hit me, rarely, at almost complete HP for 30K or so.
You want proof for this?!?
I might ask some friend if I get in a match against them and Youtube it, if this is REALLY necessary. Jerkface's stream however has more than enough videos with shocking execution spam. I'd say go look at this and spare me the necessity of frapsing and uploading and asking favors just so you can see things already available on the web.
And yes, it's the geared TRs that count, but even the meh ones are still doing good damage with it.
The point, however is:
- every burst was tamed into the ground by Tenacity
- Shocking's burst is still the same?!?
So yeah, make this power to be in line with the others, affected by Tenacity as well.
SE has always been different to other burst damage powers (which don't disregard defence etc). It was not in line before and it isn't now. No change. The reason it's different is because it requires the target to be at low HP. If you think this is not the case (i.e. it's hitting for huge damage at 80%) then that's what you need to show.
I checked jerkface vids and they're all staged, debuffed SE at well below 50% HP.
So far absolutely no proof of any kind other than anecdotal provided in this whole thread.
Also I see that we're down from claims of 20-30K hits to 22-24K. Claims getting smaller and smaller. Still not one actual vid.
Very simply? bait the TR into wasting it. I've survived SE's as a TR. Direct hit, shrugged, then killed the fool. The person you quote is correct, even without SE your doom was imminent *already* if it killed you.
If that SE didn't even exist that lashing blade or even PoB would have killed you anyway.
Simply? Baiting a TR into... wasting it? er... wasting?
Do you even know what baiting means?
Do you even know what wasting means?
Okay... I don't know if just trolling or simply lacking reading comprehension skills...
People in this thread always miss the point... which ironically is - Shocking Execution never misses.
So by saying one simply baits a TR into wasting it - TR successfully lands SE but fails to kill you in one hit. ie. TR uses SE too early.
Personally, I've never really seen an SE doing 20k let alone 30k and above on almost full HP targets as other people have cited here. And that was what people who say 'nerf-nerf' are using as an excuse, the supposedly OP damage.
Frankly, I myself disagree on nerfing SE based on it's damage. It's a friggin' Daily, a Super Move, an Arc Drive, a Limit Break, a Distortion Drive, an insert-term-for-moves-that-require-certain-conditions-to-bust-out-here, etc... it should be doing that much damage if not even more so and it's perfectly justified on all accounts.
My version of what would be called 'Baiting a TR into wasting SE' would be, simply, luring him into using it then... dodging it. Wasted super bar, period. But oh wait... it can't be dodged so lol there.
The thread starter even mentioned that he/she didn't really care for the damage SE was doing, it was the mere fact that SE couldn't be dodged. All other people crying for nerfs to SE for reasons other than it being undodgeable should be ashamed cause nerfing SE's damage would only hurt it's PVE use (not that I would use it for PVE mind you lol). This game's got too much imbalance going on already for PVE as it is and nerfs don't fix that, buffs and combat reworks do.
Sigh, if the devs only stopped nerfing the damages for stuff that could be dodged and just put more i-frames / dodge maneuvers into each class then we'd all have a grand time in 'player skill' based PVP matches (well barring the gear ofcourse but that's a non-issue if everyone had i-frame specific moves and enough dodge maneuvers). And I wish they'd take out the auto-targetting system... yeah this ain't an FPS but seriously, it takes out the fun in actually getting a hit in lol. In other MMORPGs, I could just side step long range attacks or bait certain moves into totally missing by simply walking. A mind game of feints... but alas this game is different and this paragraph is just wishful thinking lol.
tldr : All non-dodgeable skills should be made dodgeable. No need for nerfs in damage yadah yadah. Period.
PS. I wish they never implemented Tenacity... for god's sake this ain't WoW >_>. And what's the use of utilizing an action based combat system if it's not going to be an action based battle system... if that even makes sense lol.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
SE has always been different to other burst damage powers (which don't disregard defence etc). It was not in line before and it isn't now. No change. The reason it's different is because it requires the target to be at low HP. If you think this is not the case (i.e. it's hitting for huge damage at 80%) then that's what you need to show.
I checked jerkface vids and they're all staged, debuffed SE at well below 50% HP.
So far absolutely no proof of any kind other than anecdotal provided in this whole thread.
Also I see that we're down from claims of 20-30K hits to 22-24K. Claims getting smaller and smaller. Still not one actual vid.
Fine, I'll fraps something when I will have the opportunity. Jerkface's videos are from real gameplay, but it's OK. I hope I'll find some TR willing to help.
SE has always been different to other burst damage powers (which don't disregard defence etc). It was not in line before and it isn't now. No change. The reason it's different is because it requires the target to be at low HP. If you think this is not the case (i.e. it's hitting for huge damage at 80%) then that's what you need to show.
I checked jerkface vids and they're all staged, debuffed SE at well below 50% HP.
So far absolutely no proof of any kind other than anecdotal provided in this whole thread.
Also I see that we're down from claims of 20-30K hits to 22-24K. Claims getting smaller and smaller. Still not one actual vid.
Fine, I'll fraps something when I will have the opportunity. Jerkface's videos are from real gameplay, but it's OK. I hope I'll find some TR willing to help.
You guys are too invested in this 'damage' thingy. It's not even important.
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bobiwanMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So by saying one simply baits a TR into wasting it - TR successfully lands SE but fails to kill you in one hit. ie. TR uses SE too early.
Pretty much literally what I meant. Either that, or have a SF proc to waste and smoke them when you get back up. >.> That said, I agree, it should be dodgeable.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You guys are too invested in this 'damage' thingy. It's not even important.
Well it kinda is.
However, I managed to test a bit (thanks for the help congo!), and the results are quite interesting. TR was P/Bile, R8s or so, me 30% DR, 20% Tenacity.
What we did was TR builds AP, then tries to SE me as close to full HP as possible.
- non-crit: 5-6K damage
- crit: around 10K damage
As you can see, it looks like SE needs specific conditions to hit hard on high HP targets. A 10K unavoidable daily? I'd say it's quite legit and there are not many reasons to complain.
Things that might cause the big SE hits many witnessed, which resulted in this topic:
- Perfect Vorpal
- Power stacking TR
- certain build? Maybe PvE-ish?
We didn't have a perfect vorpal to test this time but I'll try to test with one if I have the opportunity.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Just saw this here, but I want to post it in the right topic
At 1.44 you see SE on the GWF with more than 50% hp and Unstoppable non crit 11k.
And people say SE can be compared to Ice Knife lol...
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Heck, I've been asking this all along since day1 of my "Undodgeable SE = bullchi*" complaints;
...baiting? wasting? defending against it? dodging it?
Gimme a vid.
Let this sucky ol' boy learn just how it is done, because I've seen even some of the best TRs fight each other, and in none of cases I've observed, I've seen someone actively, intentionally "defending" themselves against it, with the exception of staged fights where one would announce that they are going to use Shox, and then someone would CC or interrupt him in mid air.
It's just like the martial arts movies. Some people claim that those fancy moves and dodging and parrying blocking attacks could be done in real life.. except in the only real-life instances of fist-fights and MMA fighters I've observed, even the professionals can't "observe" and "react" to dodge and parry real-life punches. Human reflexes just isn't fast enough, and all the fancy self-defense techniques in movies are possible exactly because it is a movie -- pre-staged and acted.
So please, all you "I can dodge/defend myself against SE" folk, gimme proof please. I need to see it to believe it.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
However, I managed to test a bit (thanks for the help congo!), and the results are quite interesting. TR was P/Bile, R8s or so, me 30% DR, 20% Tenacity.
What we did was TR builds AP, then tries to SE me as close to full HP as possible.
- non-crit: 5-6K damage
- crit: around 10K damage
As you can see, it looks like SE needs specific conditions to hit hard on high HP targets. A 10K unavoidable daily? I'd say it's quite legit and there are not many reasons to complain.
Things that might cause the big SE hits many witnessed, which resulted in this topic:
- Perfect Vorpal
- Power stacking TR
- certain build? Maybe PvE-ish?
We didn't have a perfect vorpal to test this time but I'll try to test with one if I have the opportunity.
yeah power stacking and pve tr are op nerf them.
they will need to die 5,6 times to build up daily but then its crazy all hell brakes lose.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
yeah power stacking and pve tr are op nerf them.
they will need to die 5,6 times to build up daily but then its crazy all hell brakes lose.
Just chill for a second man, I am only trying to provide good info about this. Other CW would have not even posted such results since they suggest that the big SE hits are dependent on some very specific stuff and not a common occurrence. It's a good things for TRs I posted this. There are no claims in my post anything is OP and no asking for any nerfs OK?
Ding Ding! Ding Ding! Attention all riders of this thread! It has now pulled into the station and its time for everyone to get off. Please don't forget to take your complementary box of Kleenex with you as you leave.
Just chill for a second man, I am only trying to provide good info about this. Other CW would have not even posted such results since they suggest that the big SE hits are dependent on some very specific stuff and not a common occurrence. It's a good things for TRs I posted this. There are no claims in my post anything is OP and no asking for any nerfs OK?
Just pure information.
thats cool ty
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bobiwanMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Luckily nobody has to convince you of anything. Nor does it matter if you believe it or not. The devs know, which is all that matters. VP's follow-up can dodge SE. Quite probably the first part of VP is able to interrupt SE, but I haven't tested that. DS can dodge SE. Marauder's escape can dodge SE. Fox' Cunning can dodge SE. The fact your reflexes aren't quick enough or you not taking that specific skill has nothing to do with the matter. Sure, Those skills are not 100% guaranteed to work. Latency also plays a role of course. Some skills can't be used at that specific moment because of cooldown or some other reason. Then you're toast. So be it. There's no difference between that and getting stuck in a prone chain from GWFs. A prone chain is merely a slower and more certain death.
Huh. Dodge it with a deft strike? Never tried, seems feasible if timed correctly. I usually ended up just trying to burn the other rogue down first. Usually possible as a combat TR against a perma.
VP's follow-up can dodge SE. Quite probably the first part of VP is able to interrupt SE, but I haven't tested that. DS can dodge SE. Marauder's escape can dodge SE. Fox' Cunning can dodge SE.
Finally somebody who has something to put on the table regarding 'dodging' the 'undodgeable' lol.
I've got one WK TR so I can test VP and DS out if their i-frames (dodge frames or whatever their called in this game) can indeed reliably dodge SE with sufficient timing. I've been trying to dodge it using Bloodbath but haven't been successful as of yet. Unfortunately I don't have an HR with Fox' Cunning but hopefully with this information somebody that runs with it (every HR lol) can do a test too.
The fact your reflexes aren't quick enough or you not taking that specific skill has nothing to do with the matter. Sure, Those skills are not 100% guaranteed to work. Latency also plays a role of course.
Reflexes and skill counters always matter. One only has himself to blame if something goes wrong. Good thing WKs slot VP in PvP so that only leaves DS as a non-optimal skill choice for countering.
Latency is a different matter but at the very least it'd be like "ah, if it weren't for that lag I would've dodged that" sort of thing more akin to attributing loss due to luck.
Some skills can't be used at that specific moment because of cooldown or some other reason. Then you're toast. So be it. There's no difference between that and getting stuck in a prone chain from GWFs. A prone chain is merely a slower and more certain death.
Agreed, skill counters should always be saved for those specific circumstances and wasting them is obviously the same as getting hit by the prone chain in the first place, one only has himself to blame.
That works too. Any reasonably skilled WK or executioner build can take care of a perma. So can any class if it's willing to take the right skills for it. But the discussion here is that people want to cry about the impossibility to dodge SE. Which of course is perfectly possible if you want it bad enough. But like everything else, it comes at the expense of something else.
And that's the real reason people have been crying nerf against the TR for so long. They simply don't want to sac general efficiency to deal with a certain class. They all want to be OP with as little trouble as possible. And they want it 2 hours ago with no work on their part. The kids in this game.. bah. They cry about everything that doesn't come easy. It's disgusting.
So uh, by any class, you mean this includes GWFs and DCs right?
Your countermeasures (plus other stuff) :
TRs - VP and DS (have yet to test out)
HRs - Marauder and Fox (have yet to test out)
GFs - I would assume one simply blocks lol
CWs - Entangling, Repel or OF to interrupt mid-cast (Personal speculation, haven't actually seen it but it'd be cool though Entangling would need to be cast at the same time if it actually works against it)
That leaves us with :
GWFs - no idea
DCs - no idea
Well my point still stands, All non-dodgeable skills should be made dodgeable. No need for nerfs in damage yadah yadah. Period.
And by dodgeable, I mean using 'shift + directional key' to 'dodge'. GWFs have the short end of the stick though, what with being the only class without an active means of 'dodging' or 'blocking' in a supposedly action based combat system... lol (and no, turning unstoppable doesn't count since it is not a reliable way of mitigating SE as of now)
PS. If the Devs ever decide to totally remove the auto-targeting / lock-on system in this game, problems like this would be solved instantly. Ah, that would be really nice... though people who lack the skill to aim or time moves so they'd actually be able to hit would flood the forums and in-game chat like a second coming of the great flood... LOL
In addition to what Pers3phone stated, which was true, certain conditions besides power and vorpal have to be met. These include feats and stealth.
1. Execution while in stealth for Combat Advantage bonus
2. Execution while in stealth for 25% more critical severity
3. Execution after a successful crit for 30% of your base critical severity
A bunch of other situational bonuses that grants the TR critical severity.
However, I managed to test a bit (thanks for the help congo!), and the results are quite interesting. TR was P/Bile, R8s or so, me 30% DR, 20% Tenacity.
What we did was TR builds AP, then tries to SE me as close to full HP as possible.
- non-crit: 5-6K damage
- crit: around 10K damage
As you can see, it looks like SE needs specific conditions to hit hard on high HP targets. A 10K unavoidable daily? I'd say it's quite legit and there are not many reasons to complain.
Things that might cause the big SE hits many witnessed, which resulted in this topic:
- Perfect Vorpal
- Power stacking TR
- certain build? Maybe PvE-ish?
We didn't have a perfect vorpal to test this time but I'll try to test with one if I have the opportunity.
Thank you for posting these results. I'd say the figures you got are about what I see when playing. Judging by these numbers SE doesn't need any changing. As far as I can see it's WAI.
Obviously other feats and powers may affect the amount of damage, but in order to get up to the 25k+ damage being reported you would need an additional 150% crit severity. Kind of unlikely even with a p.vorp.
I realise your testing isn't conclusive, but I would point out that despite all the claims of being one-shotted from 80% that have been flying about of late nobody has posted any actual proof of this. Yours is about the only data that anyone's put up and it's well below the 22-24k you were talking about in your earlier posts.
Luckily nobody has to convince you of anything. Nor does it matter if you believe it or not. The devs know, which is all that matters. VP's follow-up can dodge SE. Quite probably the first part of VP is able to interrupt SE, but I haven't tested that. DS can dodge SE. Marauder's escape can dodge SE. Fox' Cunning can dodge SE. The fact your reflexes aren't quick enough or you not taking that specific skill has nothing to do with the matter. Sure, Those skills are not 100% guaranteed to work. Latency also plays a role of course. Some skills can't be used at that specific moment because of cooldown or some other reason. Then you're toast. So be it. There's no difference between that and getting stuck in a prone chain from GWFs. A prone chain is merely a slower and more certain death.
That's a long winded way of saying;
"I can talk a heap oh shi*, but it doesn't work in real life"
How about this one if we're gonna keep talking bollocks?
Q: How does a squishy TR stand toe-to-toe against a GWF with an all out melee brawl?
A: Easy. Get as close to him as possible, and then keep on moving around his back so you only get minimal hits while landing yours, and then dodge his every knock-prone attack.
Ofcourse, I don't need to prove this. I can just spew it on the forums as something that works well.
:rolleyes:
So, come on. I dare you. I dare all the "SE is not a problem. It is dodgeable and escapable" crowd to go on and prove the cockamimy claims that SE is defenseable against in a non-staged, non-premeditated, actual combat situation where a MI TR closes in and activates it, and then you happen to simply react and escape/prevent from getting hit.
Ofcourse, normally I'd also mention the person to honestly log how many times they failed in doing it, since something that works -- let's say -- only once out of one hundred attemots can hardly be considered a 'solution', but in this case I'll just be content with seeing with my own eyes that one instance. I mean, we have MI TRs dime a dozen in PvP. SE happens every day, every match, so I'm sure anyone can come up with a vid of it happening if its so easy to do.
....
No proof?
Then stop pretending undodgeable powers aren't a problem in PvP. We squishies have all fought against Ice Knives in their prime when it used to hit a lot harder. Nobody really brought it up as a problem because Ice Knives were within bounds of a normal power. It has the ching-ching audible telegraph/warning which you could react to and dodge. It needs the CW to activate it under certainty that it will be hit. Same with any dailies that have high damage. Heck, even Bloodbath you're able to slip away from more than half its damage if you dodge two times during its duration.
I couldn't care less if Shox hits for 10k, 15k, heck even 150k damage. As long as it becomes fully dodgeable.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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shunterinoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
it's not dodgable though, not in the typical sense so every dodging class can avoid it
using a skill to evade it DOES NOT mean that is dodging you are evading it, however by using those other skills, I believe the SE is still up for the TR and if it is up, you are just delaying the inevitable
Comments
When you face another class, and it has some ability that seems OP to you, and you make a post about it - it's legit feedback
There have been a lot of reports but zero vids or any actual evidence. Once a legit video of someone being hit for 40k when they're at 80% HP is posted then I'm sure people will start taking notice. Until then this is all just one lot of people trying to nerf another lot of people for their own gain.
I don't think it hits for 40K, but it does hit for 20-30K on 80-90% HP, if the TR is r8-10 with Perfect Vorpal. Non crits around 10K.
^ 100% Agreed.
I mainly play action games in any platform (FPS, TPS, RPGs, Fighting Games, etc..) and I'm actually a fan of moves that either outright kill me or put me at death's door when I get hit.
There are other people like me who, If we can't get this kind of difficulty in a game, we try to get it by playing at the hardest difficulty or by outright gimping ourselves to kingdom come.
In contrast, there are also people who complain about this 'move' (enemy AI, weapon, boss move, character move) because they can't handle it.
Our general response to threads like those are :
"Have you tried dodging it?"
"Did you know you could prevent it?"
"Why get hit in the first place? lololol"
"Get quicker at aiming that Arctic Warfare Magnum (sniper rifle) so you cap the other guy before his kills you >_>"
"etc... etc... etc..."
At the end of the day, If said 'move' was preventable / dodgeable, I've only got myself to blame whenever I see a game over screen.
Okay, down to business (since I've typed up too much OT stuff lol)...
Oh great and knowledgeable sanesjka, how does one dodge / prevent Shocking Execution? And please, kindly post a video showing how it's done cause' if you can't... then well... you're probably talking about yourself in this line...
'Which tells me we are dealing with yet another person with minimal knowledge of PvP complaining about abilities and this is' LOL
PS. And don't bother with a method like my Counter Strike example of killing the other guy before he one-shots you cause obviously that cannot apply to all classes in PVP.
Which is why worst pvp in any game - ever. 2 maps. Boring no one does any damage. Run around try not to die. *yawn*. Devs want it to be "game challenged" friendly where it takes 40 hits to kill someone. Oh wow you did damage to someone? Awful, here have some tenacity while we reduce their damage.........
I have yet to see one positive change in this game, balance, mechanics, dungeons, pvp, etc. since beta.
Very simply? bait the TR into wasting it. I've survived SE's as a TR. Direct hit, shrugged, then killed the fool. The person you quote is correct, even without SE your doom was imminent *already* if it killed you.
If that SE didn't even exist that lashing blade or even PoB would have killed you anyway.
Funny how when asked for proof you suddenly get much more downplayed claims. So SE is outrageously overpowered and needs to be nerfed for everyone because of a small group of people with R10s and p.vorp. Well done on being so reasonable.
And even with the downsized claims, still no proof.
BTW I never saw any 40K hit claims. I already tested this with a TR friend (R7s and P.Vorpal), and he only threw some daggers, I assume to proc stuff, then SEed me at almost full HP (I have 20% Tenacity 35K HP 30% DR) and his normal hits were 10K-ish, his crits were 22-24K. Better equipped (differently specced?) TRs hit me, rarely, at almost complete HP for 30K or so.
You want proof for this?!?
I might ask some friend if I get in a match against them and Youtube it, if this is REALLY necessary. Jerkface's stream however has more than enough videos with shocking execution spam. I'd say go look at this and spare me the necessity of frapsing and uploading and asking favors just so you can see things already available on the web.
And yes, it's the geared TRs that count, but even the meh ones are still doing good damage with it.
The point, however is:
- every burst was tamed into the ground by Tenacity
- Shocking's burst is still the same?!?
So yeah, make this power to be in line with the others, affected by Tenacity as well.
SE has always been different to other burst damage powers (which don't disregard defence etc). It was not in line before and it isn't now. No change. The reason it's different is because it requires the target to be at low HP. If you think this is not the case (i.e. it's hitting for huge damage at 80%) then that's what you need to show.
I checked jerkface vids and they're all staged, debuffed SE at well below 50% HP.
So far absolutely no proof of any kind other than anecdotal provided in this whole thread.
Also I see that we're down from claims of 20-30K hits to 22-24K. Claims getting smaller and smaller. Still not one actual vid.
Simply? Baiting a TR into... wasting it? er... wasting?
Do you even know what baiting means?
Do you even know what wasting means?
Okay... I don't know if just trolling or simply lacking reading comprehension skills...
People in this thread always miss the point... which ironically is - Shocking Execution never misses.
So by saying one simply baits a TR into wasting it - TR successfully lands SE but fails to kill you in one hit. ie. TR uses SE too early.
Personally, I've never really seen an SE doing 20k let alone 30k and above on almost full HP targets as other people have cited here. And that was what people who say 'nerf-nerf' are using as an excuse, the supposedly OP damage.
Frankly, I myself disagree on nerfing SE based on it's damage. It's a friggin' Daily, a Super Move, an Arc Drive, a Limit Break, a Distortion Drive, an insert-term-for-moves-that-require-certain-conditions-to-bust-out-here, etc... it should be doing that much damage if not even more so and it's perfectly justified on all accounts.
My version of what would be called 'Baiting a TR into wasting SE' would be, simply, luring him into using it then... dodging it. Wasted super bar, period. But oh wait... it can't be dodged so lol there.
The thread starter even mentioned that he/she didn't really care for the damage SE was doing, it was the mere fact that SE couldn't be dodged. All other people crying for nerfs to SE for reasons other than it being undodgeable should be ashamed cause nerfing SE's damage would only hurt it's PVE use (not that I would use it for PVE mind you lol). This game's got too much imbalance going on already for PVE as it is and nerfs don't fix that, buffs and combat reworks do.
Sigh, if the devs only stopped nerfing the damages for stuff that could be dodged and just put more i-frames / dodge maneuvers into each class then we'd all have a grand time in 'player skill' based PVP matches (well barring the gear ofcourse but that's a non-issue if everyone had i-frame specific moves and enough dodge maneuvers). And I wish they'd take out the auto-targetting system... yeah this ain't an FPS but seriously, it takes out the fun in actually getting a hit in lol. In other MMORPGs, I could just side step long range attacks or bait certain moves into totally missing by simply walking. A mind game of feints... but alas this game is different and this paragraph is just wishful thinking lol.
tldr : All non-dodgeable skills should be made dodgeable. No need for nerfs in damage yadah yadah. Period.
PS. I wish they never implemented Tenacity... for god's sake this ain't WoW >_>. And what's the use of utilizing an action based combat system if it's not going to be an action based battle system... if that even makes sense lol.
Fine, I'll fraps something when I will have the opportunity. Jerkface's videos are from real gameplay, but it's OK. I hope I'll find some TR willing to help.
You guys are too invested in this 'damage' thingy. It's not even important.
Well it kinda is.
However, I managed to test a bit (thanks for the help congo!), and the results are quite interesting. TR was P/Bile, R8s or so, me 30% DR, 20% Tenacity.
What we did was TR builds AP, then tries to SE me as close to full HP as possible.
- non-crit: 5-6K damage
- crit: around 10K damage
As you can see, it looks like SE needs specific conditions to hit hard on high HP targets. A 10K unavoidable daily? I'd say it's quite legit and there are not many reasons to complain.
Things that might cause the big SE hits many witnessed, which resulted in this topic:
- Perfect Vorpal
- Power stacking TR
- certain build? Maybe PvE-ish?
We didn't have a perfect vorpal to test this time but I'll try to test with one if I have the opportunity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnJX3DPiuRU&list=UUoFv8807gqrktpl_cfDHl-g
At 1.44 you see SE on the GWF with more than 50% hp and Unstoppable non crit 11k.
And people say SE can be compared to Ice Knife lol...
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
...baiting? wasting? defending against it? dodging it?
Gimme a vid.
Let this sucky ol' boy learn just how it is done, because I've seen even some of the best TRs fight each other, and in none of cases I've observed, I've seen someone actively, intentionally "defending" themselves against it, with the exception of staged fights where one would announce that they are going to use Shox, and then someone would CC or interrupt him in mid air.
It's just like the martial arts movies. Some people claim that those fancy moves and dodging and parrying blocking attacks could be done in real life.. except in the only real-life instances of fist-fights and MMA fighters I've observed, even the professionals can't "observe" and "react" to dodge and parry real-life punches. Human reflexes just isn't fast enough, and all the fancy self-defense techniques in movies are possible exactly because it is a movie -- pre-staged and acted.
So please, all you "I can dodge/defend myself against SE" folk, gimme proof please. I need to see it to believe it.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
yeah power stacking and pve tr are op nerf them.
they will need to die 5,6 times to build up daily but then its crazy all hell brakes lose.
Just chill for a second man, I am only trying to provide good info about this. Other CW would have not even posted such results since they suggest that the big SE hits are dependent on some very specific stuff and not a common occurrence. It's a good things for TRs I posted this. There are no claims in my post anything is OP and no asking for any nerfs OK?
Just pure information.
Branch Lead
thats cool ty
Finally somebody who has something to put on the table regarding 'dodging' the 'undodgeable' lol.
I've got one WK TR so I can test VP and DS out if their i-frames (dodge frames or whatever their called in this game) can indeed reliably dodge SE with sufficient timing. I've been trying to dodge it using Bloodbath but haven't been successful as of yet. Unfortunately I don't have an HR with Fox' Cunning but hopefully with this information somebody that runs with it (every HR lol) can do a test too.
Reflexes and skill counters always matter. One only has himself to blame if something goes wrong. Good thing WKs slot VP in PvP so that only leaves DS as a non-optimal skill choice for countering.
Latency is a different matter but at the very least it'd be like "ah, if it weren't for that lag I would've dodged that" sort of thing more akin to attributing loss due to luck.
Agreed, skill counters should always be saved for those specific circumstances and wasting them is obviously the same as getting hit by the prone chain in the first place, one only has himself to blame.
So uh, by any class, you mean this includes GWFs and DCs right?
Your countermeasures (plus other stuff) :
TRs - VP and DS (have yet to test out)
HRs - Marauder and Fox (have yet to test out)
GFs - I would assume one simply blocks lol
CWs - Entangling, Repel or OF to interrupt mid-cast (Personal speculation, haven't actually seen it but it'd be cool though Entangling would need to be cast at the same time if it actually works against it)
That leaves us with :
GWFs - no idea
DCs - no idea
Well my point still stands, All non-dodgeable skills should be made dodgeable. No need for nerfs in damage yadah yadah. Period.
And by dodgeable, I mean using 'shift + directional key' to 'dodge'. GWFs have the short end of the stick though, what with being the only class without an active means of 'dodging' or 'blocking' in a supposedly action based combat system... lol (and no, turning unstoppable doesn't count since it is not a reliable way of mitigating SE as of now)
PS. If the Devs ever decide to totally remove the auto-targeting / lock-on system in this game, problems like this would be solved instantly. Ah, that would be really nice... though people who lack the skill to aim or time moves so they'd actually be able to hit would flood the forums and in-game chat like a second coming of the great flood... LOL
1. Execution while in stealth for Combat Advantage bonus
2. Execution while in stealth for 25% more critical severity
3. Execution after a successful crit for 30% of your base critical severity
A bunch of other situational bonuses that grants the TR critical severity.
Thank you for posting these results. I'd say the figures you got are about what I see when playing. Judging by these numbers SE doesn't need any changing. As far as I can see it's WAI.
Obviously other feats and powers may affect the amount of damage, but in order to get up to the 25k+ damage being reported you would need an additional 150% crit severity. Kind of unlikely even with a p.vorp.
I realise your testing isn't conclusive, but I would point out that despite all the claims of being one-shotted from 80% that have been flying about of late nobody has posted any actual proof of this. Yours is about the only data that anyone's put up and it's well below the 22-24k you were talking about in your earlier posts.
That's a long winded way of saying;
"I can talk a heap oh shi*, but it doesn't work in real life"
How about this one if we're gonna keep talking bollocks?
Ofcourse, I don't need to prove this. I can just spew it on the forums as something that works well.
:rolleyes:
So, come on. I dare you. I dare all the "SE is not a problem. It is dodgeable and escapable" crowd to go on and prove the cockamimy claims that SE is defenseable against in a non-staged, non-premeditated, actual combat situation where a MI TR closes in and activates it, and then you happen to simply react and escape/prevent from getting hit.
Ofcourse, normally I'd also mention the person to honestly log how many times they failed in doing it, since something that works -- let's say -- only once out of one hundred attemots can hardly be considered a 'solution', but in this case I'll just be content with seeing with my own eyes that one instance. I mean, we have MI TRs dime a dozen in PvP. SE happens every day, every match, so I'm sure anyone can come up with a vid of it happening if its so easy to do.
....
No proof?
Then stop pretending undodgeable powers aren't a problem in PvP. We squishies have all fought against Ice Knives in their prime when it used to hit a lot harder. Nobody really brought it up as a problem because Ice Knives were within bounds of a normal power. It has the ching-ching audible telegraph/warning which you could react to and dodge. It needs the CW to activate it under certainty that it will be hit. Same with any dailies that have high damage. Heck, even Bloodbath you're able to slip away from more than half its damage if you dodge two times during its duration.
I couldn't care less if Shox hits for 10k, 15k, heck even 150k damage. As long as it becomes fully dodgeable.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
this only affects a non-crit strike, so wouldn't boost a critting SE hit.
...never mind. It already hits for 150k.
http://youtu.be/PW1k8OXBbHQ
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
using a skill to evade it DOES NOT mean that is dodging you are evading it, however by using those other skills, I believe the SE is still up for the TR and if it is up, you are just delaying the inevitable