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The problem of UNBALANCING classes

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  • hmdq#4491 hmdq Member Posts: 508 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Actually they were and he wasn't some kind of PvP god either.

    He was really good in combat vs a fighter, but he was vulnerable to assassin classes, who could sneak up and kill him in one shot before he even got a spell off, but they were doomed face to face, where he was standing toe to toe with them. The Cleric had a Silence spell which killed all attempts at casting. And In melee, the Cleric could easily best a mage without his magic.

    In the actual game where dungeon delving was the key he had limited amounts of spells and had to ration them. He could not endlessly cast and cast. But then again he also would have to face massive numbers of enemies in fewer encounters generally maybe 5 encounters like that at most, not quite all the time like in these dungeons, while the rest of the time the numbers faced were more reasonable. And without a Thief to spot and remove traps, that was one dead mage.

    He depended on the rest of the party, because other elements in the dungeon could kill him very quickly.... What generally could not... were massive numbers of enemies and well... fighters.

    I totally agree you caught the spirit of this thread and the fact that everything was so chaotic with this game, more precisely with the classes in the game.
  • hmdq#4491 hmdq Member Posts: 508 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Honestly if they had any hope all of balancing it they'd have to make...

    Mages easily able to best a Fighter
    Fighters easily able to best a Thief/Rogue
    Stealthed Rogues easily able to best a Mage

    Not sure how you'd work Clerics in. I suppose there would also have to be a dynamic of GF strong against Ranger, and Ranger strong against GWF but that is about all I can suggest if you wanted some hope of balance in PvP.

    there are not only advantages and disadvantages rules and other rules of the paper not should be fully applied here in an action-rpg, but without offending the general lore of rpgs that is what is happening in NVO, the devs are offending the creators of d&d and more all created lore behind the games or rpgs default table. and this is very sad!


    and I must say, which is a fire mage without fireball! spare me!
  • hmdq#4491 hmdq Member Posts: 508 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Well interestingly enough that's how you beat mage encounters in D&D dungeon scenario.

    He sends his minions at you, and then casts spells at you that can wreck the whole party. Your mage can do the same to his minions. So you have your Rogue or Thief sneak up behind him and backstab him to kill him before he even gets a spell off. Your mage takes out his minions with an AoE an the Fighter steps up and kills his Elites assisted by the Thief/Rogue.

    That's how you beat a D&D mage encounter.

    EDIT: The Fighters will get taken out relatively quickly, The Mage is at an impass, but the Rogue is the one that can instantly tip the scales in your favor.

    In PVE this is what is lacking in NVO is self explanatory (see image and dont laught! this is just one example of encounter! some variations may occur of course!)! In PVP lacks the balancing of classes and greater militancy - obeyed the standard lore of course rpgs!

    Attachment not found.
  • adernathadernath Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    hquadros wrote: »
    adernath it was not specific to you, but to the community itself! :-)

    I understood you :P
    hquadros wrote: »
    in theory yes because we hit area - where every game has a mage he is hitting more in the area - in pvp would be possible to make a mage but not OP, but combative - such as not having taken our contro...among other suggestions, in pve a way to reduce this gap is precisely develop dungeons where one needs other classes and limiting the number of classes by pt. Some examples: enemys with magic immune, another immune to physical damage, others that could only be viewed by a HR/TR, others who would die only with a cure (the example of liches and undead) sorry if some mistake committee but yes it is possible to do something more than interesting hit and run and kill the trash just to loot! in pvp is not always legal to kill but to die from time to time too.

    Another idea is to place really deadly traps into dungeons around chests, nodes and shortcuts, making the TR more useful.
    Suggestions to improve NW:
    - Dualspec
    - Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
    - Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
    - Armory
    - make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    adernath wrote: »
    I understood you :P



    Another idea is to place really deadly traps into dungeons around chests, nodes and shortcuts, making the TR more useful.

    While I'd love traps to hit much harder, in high end groups the tr would be no more useful. For my proof I'd reference the other dnd mmo which did have deadly traps. The problem is higher end groups would learn exactly where the edges of the trap etc were and jump around the trap. (not saying an exploit, it wasn't terrain glitching) With every trap memorized and knowing where to move to not get hit with timing etc, traps aren't deadly no matter how much damage they do.
  • gurugeorgegurugeorge Member Posts: 421 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Part of the problem is this: nowadays, people expect to be able to solo lots of MMORPG content quickly and powerfully.

    So every class has to be viable for solo content - in a trope, everyone has to be a Tankmage.

    This means that the idea of classes depending on each other in group play, and some classes being strong against some types of enemy and weak vs. others, has to go out the window. RPG style "rock/paper/scissors" type of balance goes out the window, and you have to have "numbers vs. numbers" balance instead.

    But then you have the problem of what "balance" means between classes which are supposed to have thematically very different abilities. Numbers vs. numbers works in an FPS where everyone has more or less the same set of abilities. But having that kind of balance between thematic and playstyle differences like melee vs. magic is a real headache.

    So devs are constantly chasing their tail.

    The result is that in the end "damage is king" is the meta, FOTM is constantly leapfrogging (this week it's the CW that's OP, next week it's the TR, etc.) and things get rather boring. This is exacerbated by the problem that interesting dungeons (which could alleviate the "damage is king" meta problem) take a lot of time and resources to design (mainly because every layer of complexity has to be Q&A-ed).

    The problem is that devs listen to players and try to give them what they want.

    Devs need to stop listening to players and start designing games again.

    What people want isn't necessarily what's good for them or what will in fact keep them entertained for long periods. (e.g. "god mode" is fun for a while, but gets boring pretty quickly).
  • overddriveoverddrive Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2014
    adernath wrote: »
    I understood you :P
    Another idea is to place really deadly traps into dungeons around chests, nodes and shortcuts, making the TR more useful.

    I played NWN since it first came out-then the improvement of NWN (the path of ascension mod), then the ultimate best version of NWN to date: NWN poa higher grounds. Rogues are incredibly important to dungeons in that game because dungeon chests came in sets, 1 for the regular loot and another for the really killer loot. The killer loot chest is always locked and requires a rogue to pick that lock. That killer loot, btw, was loot unique to the end game boss fight of the dungeon in question and you had to have been in a party that defeated that boss to even be able to wear the gear. So having a rogue in party was an absolute requirement. What kills nwo is that dungeons require nothing more than dps and glitching. The mobs are all generic, which kind of is a result of the shoddy 4e system. 3e you had saving throws and some spells that would kill almost anything that failed the saving throw. Of course specific classes were dedicated "instakillers" and built entirely to 1-shot trash mobs en mass and to take care of mobs which would be nearly impossible for the party to damage down. Mob kick back damage (ie you hit it with anything that does damage and the damage is reflect back to all party members x5, so hitting a kb mob for 1k would result in the entire party taking 5k damage). Mobs that have an anti-magic shell in a massive radius around them, making them essentially immune to all spells, send in the tanks and the rogue...then these kinds of special mobs and more combined in dense concentrations of adds....that made for some really creative game play and an absolute need to have as varied a party as possible. I just don't see nwo making it for very long with its currently really lack luster and GRINDY pve system.
    PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
    Jugger Conq GF
    ....
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    hquadros wrote: »
    A good example is the OP class of the moment: GWF , in my point of view it is OP simply because a GWF has over 30 armor class which will give you much resistance, easily reaches +-40 % chance critical and is VERY fast and versatile, Cryptic has created a monster that today has almost no disadvantages in combat 1x1.

    First: over 30 armor class is a Sentinel build. Not a generic "GWF".
    Second: have you ever considered the GWFs are the only melee class that is never immune to damage, not even for a second? Even Ustoppable is not immunity to damage. In fact, if multiple defense debuffs are stacked on an Unstoppable GWF, he can get enough damage to get killed. And also, the Unstoppable mechanic is negated by prones.
    Third: in 1x1 you kill a GWF with prones (every class have prone moves), evading his unstoppable, and repeat.

    A good TR can go ITC (immune) and facetank DPS, dodge roll away (immune) going stealth, dodge roll again (immune), DPS from stealth while evading and eventually regenerating, go ITC again (immune) and repeat. Then, if the GWF tanks enough, when he's at around 50% HP, the TR can drop a shocking execution and shut him down.

    The GWF can tank, go unstoppable, and use personal skills to spot the TR, chain prone him and try to kill him before he gets killed.

    A HR can root a GWF in place, go melee DPS, evade (immune), go stealth, evade more (immune), root in place and DPS from range, evade more (immune) evade more (immune) and go tanky enough to eat some damage from the GWF.

    These 3 classes, if well used, are balanced. The Others fall behind in PvP. This is the current situation.

    If you can't fight a GWF right now, you either:

    Are undergeared compared to him
    Are using the wrong strategy
    Are using a wrong build
    Are less skilled than your enemy
    Are playing a CW/DC/GF
    2 or more of the above together

    2v1 a GWF goes down, unless you're a bad player or really undergeared.

    I think there's a lot of confusion cause perople never consider that what theye experience can very well be the effect of multiple factors (gear, skills, build, exc...).
    They go straight: "i can't face this enemy--->his class is obviously OP".

    Then you see these players struggling or being stalled 2.3.4v1 against a GWF, and then the same GWF goes down 1v1 or 2v1 when a good player come face him. I see this stuff a lot. Also against TRs, with tenacity, lots of puggers being outclassed and ending up 3v1 on their base, not being able to kill the TR, who keeps playing around with them.
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13501&d=1395109330


    hmmm... The function of the cw is not damage , but control ( by definition ) .

    I do not know when you got into the game , but the large imbalance that exists and that has only been partially broken CURRENTLY due to the fact that the CW had the monopoly of damage + control. So your perspective is precisely the nature of the imbalance . This is not theoretical , it is practical , is the story of this game until the end of 2013 .

    Now do not get me wrong , the character selection , the description of the cw suggests massive damage and control. Is it lawful for you have it. The description of gwf / destroyer is the definition of a tarrasque ... I do not have a tarrasque but have the guts (look on youtube a clip of 10:07 sec called " Berserk : Guts vs 100 men") . Anyway , This has nothing to do with any " teen feeling." This is what the seller promised .

    Now we come to a point : the gwf , by definition , need not be protected, the rogue has stealth , and cw dont needs comment . If I rolled the gf , I hope someone protect : spare me the ranger and dc . But both , you see , are better protected by cw . The alternative that remains is to make it a Spartan . Sounds fair , no?

    And answering the umpteenth time this story of " the problem is designe of dungeons " yea , it sucks , but that's what we have . I'd rather have my class well suited to a terrible dungeon than having a perfect class for a dungeon does not exist .
  • hmdq#4491 hmdq Member Posts: 508 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    adernath wrote: »
    I understood you :P



    Another idea is to place really deadly traps into dungeons around chests, nodes and shortcuts, making the TR more useful.

    would be a good idea, even as colcoar immune to magic mobs for example as I have already explained above.
  • hoofithoofit Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 122 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Ive done a lot of Pvp and noticed a few things even after the pvp changes
    The sides are still not evenly matched for instance you get 2 OP gwfs and the other side will lose (GWFs badly need nerfing they are monsters they have speed,deal to much damage and can out tank a GF and in most games i see it takes 4 people to put one down. Maybe its an april fools joke gone wrong?)
    Roots well sometimes it can tie you up till your dead it needs to be reduced the amount of time it can hold you.
    The distance Hunters and wizards can teleport should be increased because I'm sure the reason for teleport is to escape a hit or an enemy and get distance? Try escaping a GWF who can out run a basic horse how is that right?
    The wizards teleport stops for a mili second after porting too is this something your going to fix?
    Tenacity well so far I dont rate it much for anything I've played without and with not a lot if any difference.
    One last thing will you be making the sides more equal in future?
    I would like to hear from cryptic for the answers not an angry 12 year old gwf who doesn't want his char nerfed lol :P
    Oh and CW's useless ner I have one and it often gets top score and kills unless there are to many gwfs in the games then it just gets splatted lol.
  • hmdq#4491 hmdq Member Posts: 508 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    gurugeorge wrote: »
    Part of the problem is this: nowadays, people expect to be able to solo lots of MMORPG content quickly and powerfully.

    So every class has to be viable for solo content - in a trope, everyone has to be a Tankmage.

    This means that the idea of classes depending on each other in group play, and some classes being strong against some types of enemy and weak vs. others, has to go out the window. RPG style "rock/paper/scissors" type of balance goes out the window, and you have to have "numbers vs. numbers" balance instead.

    But then you have the problem of what "balance" means between classes which are supposed to have thematically very different abilities. Numbers vs. numbers works in an FPS where everyone has more or less the same set of abilities. But having that kind of balance between thematic and playstyle differences like melee vs. magic is a real headache.

    So devs are constantly chasing their tail.

    The result is that in the end "damage is king" is the meta, FOTM is constantly leapfrogging (this week it's the CW that's OP, next week it's the TR, etc.) and things get rather boring. This is exacerbated by the problem that interesting dungeons (which could alleviate the "damage is king" meta problem) take a lot of time and resources to design (mainly because every layer of complexity has to be Q&A-ed).

    The problem is that devs listen to players and try to give them what they want.

    Devs need to stop listening to players and start designing games again.

    What people want isn't necessarily what's good for them or what will in fact keep them entertained for long periods. (e.g. "god mode" is fun for a while, but gets boring pretty quickly).

    you are right and the big problem is the fact that only seek the ultimate loot or farm for items, unless Cryptic put a premium for the cleanliness of the whole dungeon! It would be interesting and also another idea!
  • hmdq#4491 hmdq Member Posts: 508 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    overddrive wrote: »
    I played NWN since it first came out-then the improvement of NWN (the path of ascension mod), then the ultimate best version of NWN to date: NWN poa higher grounds. Rogues are incredibly important to dungeons in that game because dungeon chests came in sets, 1 for the regular loot and another for the really killer loot. The killer loot chest is always locked and requires a rogue to pick that lock. That killer loot, btw, was loot unique to the end game boss fight of the dungeon in question and you had to have been in a party that defeated that boss to even be able to wear the gear. So having a rogue in party was an absolute requirement. What kills nwo is that dungeons require nothing more than dps and glitching. The mobs are all generic, which kind of is a result of the shoddy 4e system. 3e you had saving throws and some spells that would kill almost anything that failed the saving throw. Of course specific classes were dedicated "instakillers" and built entirely to 1-shot trash mobs en mass and to take care of mobs which would be nearly impossible for the party to damage down. Mob kick back damage (ie you hit it with anything that does damage and the damage is reflect back to all party members x5, so hitting a kb mob for 1k would result in the entire party taking 5k damage). Mobs that have an anti-magic shell in a massive radius around them, making them essentially immune to all spells, send in the tanks and the rogue...then these kinds of special mobs and more combined in dense concentrations of adds....that made for some really creative game play and an absolute need to have as varied a party as possible. I just don't see nwo making it for very long with its currently really lack luster and GRINDY pve system.

    complain much of the wizard itself to cause much damage in dungeons, I agree with that, but that would be solved if 'force' the use of other classes due to the situation found in dungeons, traps, mobs immune to physical damage or magic damage, or uncontrollable, etc.. stuff like that would be more balanced to en even if there was a final prize for those who cleaned the whole dungeon, it would be interesting! But back to the topic of this thread so it would work if the classes were balanced and each with its proper sense with advantages and disadvantages!
  • pers3phonepers3phone Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    zacazu wrote: »
    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13501&d=1395109330


    hmmm... The function of the cw is not damage , but control ( by definition ) .

    I do not know when you got into the game , but the large imbalance that exists and that has only been partially broken CURRENTLY due to the fact that the CW had the monopoly of damage + control.

    People like you ALWAYS, ALWAYS completely forget to add that in the CW class descriptions there are 2 things:

    - control
    - wizardry

    As I explained numerous times, as of now, CW is the Ranged Magic DPS class. This archetype can be found in numerous RPGs and is characterized by a squishy magic user that stays behind the tanks and hurls massive fireballs or whatever. The roles are always the same:

    - Crowd Control
    - (Mostly AoE) Damage

    Now, Neverwinter fails at creating scenarios where tanks and heals are needed (at high GS).

    And the answer to this failure is supposed to be...

    ... nerf CW damage?

    OK, sure, why not...
  • hmdq#4491 hmdq Member Posts: 508 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    pando83 wrote: »
    First: over 30 armor class is a Sentinel build. Not a generic "GWF".
    Second: have you ever considered the GWFs are the only melee class that is never immune to damage, not even for a second? Even Ustoppable is not immunity to damage. In fact, if multiple defense debuffs are stacked on an Unstoppable GWF, he can get enough damage to get killed. And also, the Unstoppable mechanic is negated by prones.
    Third: in 1x1 you kill a GWF with prones (every class have prone moves), evading his unstoppable, and repeat.

    A good TR can go ITC (immune) and facetank DPS, dodge roll away (immune) going stealth, dodge roll again (immune), DPS from stealth while evading and eventually regenerating, go ITC again (immune) and repeat. Then, if the GWF tanks enough, when he's at around 50% HP, the TR can drop a shocking execution and shut him down.

    The GWF can tank, go unstoppable, and use personal skills to spot the TR, chain prone him and try to kill him before he gets killed.

    A HR can root a GWF in place, go melee DPS, evade (immune), go stealth, evade more (immune), root in place and DPS from range, evade more (immune) evade more (immune) and go tanky enough to eat some damage from the GWF.

    These 3 classes, if well used, are balanced. The Others fall behind in PvP. This is the current situation.

    If you can't fight a GWF right now, you either:

    Are undergeared compared to him
    Are using the wrong strategy
    Are using a wrong build
    Are less skilled than your enemy
    Are playing a CW/DC/GF
    2 or more of the above together

    2v1 a GWF goes down, unless you're a bad player or really undergeared.

    I think there's a lot of confusion cause perople never consider that what theye experience can very well be the effect of multiple factors (gear, skills, build, exc...).
    They go straight: "i can't face this enemy--->his class is obviously OP".

    Then you see these players struggling or being stalled 2.3.4v1 against a GWF, and then the same GWF goes down 1v1 or 2v1 when a good player come face him. I see this stuff a lot. Also against TRs, with tenacity, lots of puggers being outclassed and ending up 3v1 on their base, not being able to kill the TR, who keeps playing around with them.

    TODAY in PVP is not possible to kill a good GWF with a CW unchecked ( taken from CWs ) as you said ! this is the problem and should not be like the standard lore of rpgs ! the GWF take damage in unstopable yes, but the difference in the damage it takes to damage received eg a glass canon CW is insignificant and causes it to survive, the fact is that today a good GWF to kill in PVP it takes more 1 class to it even more! once again as you said is not only build , gear , finger , experience , etc. , but also on how the class was designed and developed , but there are some contradictions that could be arranged , not nerfs , but perhaps with a repackaging of according to the class . eventually everyone would benefit from it ! now I imagine the same subject in the new map PVP / PVE with class imbalance in comparison with the other . I argue that all clases have clear advantages and disadvantages and there combatitividade between them although there are advantages and disadvantages , which does not occur today because some excel other bizarre way up !
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    pers3phone wrote: »
    People like you ALWAYS, ALWAYS completely forget to add that in the CW class descriptions there are 2 things:

    - control
    - wizardry

    As I explained numerous times, as of now, CW is the Ranged Magic DPS class. This archetype can be found in numerous RPGs and is characterized by a squishy magic user that stays behind the tanks and hurls massive fireballs or whatever. The roles are always the same:

    - Crowd Control
    - (Mostly AoE) Damage

    Now, Neverwinter fails at creating scenarios where tanks and heals are needed (at high GS).

    And the answer to this failure is supposed to be...

    ... nerf CW damage?

    OK, sure, why not...

    ok, THAT is an example of an angry post ... hahah

    In the sentence below I say, "Now's not get me wrong, the character selection, the description of the cw Suggests massive damage and control. Is it lawful for you have it.."

    tsc... yep...
  • hmdq#4491 hmdq Member Posts: 508 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    pers3phone wrote: »
    People like you ALWAYS, ALWAYS completely forget to add that in the CW class descriptions there are 2 things:

    - control
    - wizardry

    As I explained numerous times, as of now, CW is the Ranged Magic DPS class. This archetype can be found in numerous RPGs and is characterized by a squishy magic user that stays behind the tanks and hurls massive fireballs or whatever. The roles are always the same:

    - Crowd Control
    - (Mostly AoE) Damage

    Now, Neverwinter fails at creating scenarios where tanks and heals are needed (at high GS).

    And the answer to this failure is supposed to be...

    ... nerf CW damage?

    OK, sure, why not...

    pers3phone I totally agree , I think the case is not nerf ( nerf cause irreparable damage to the game itself and brings anger to those who spent time and money developing your character beyond the quarrels between classes - totally unproductive - just nerf is only good to fix bugs or exploits and only ---> this cryptic sinning and turning it ingame and offgame in a scene of battle between the classes ) , but perhaps limit the damage of the CW putting mobs immune to magic would be a way out ! limit the number of cws by pt would be another , or even take a ton of trash we find in dungeons and limit somewhat the meetings so that they become more strategic , eg , determined without shield mob of HK , so take some damage physical , others are dying to cure or specific skills of a particular class , so other classes will have utility in the uk instead of just damage , damage and damage, so boring ;/. simple and this would force the formation of a more balanced com ! and please fireballs for CWs, sleep for CWs, silence for other class and etc ! :-) I see today are only pts zerg who just enter the dungeons for loot and the farm !
  • hmdq#4491 hmdq Member Posts: 508 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    zacazu wrote: »
    ok, THAT is an example of an angry post ... hahah

    In the sentence below I say, "Now's not get me wrong, the character selection, the description of the cw Suggests massive damage and control. Is it lawful for you have it.."

    yep... next.

    is not angry this post are just facts that show how the classes are unbalanced since its inception! but there repairing it ... and just want to have good ideas!
  • hmdq#4491 hmdq Member Posts: 508 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    zacazu wrote: »
    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13501&d=1395109330


    hmmm... The function of the cw is not damage , but control ( by definition ) .

    I do not know when you got into the game , but the large imbalance that exists and that has only been partially broken CURRENTLY due to the fact that the CW had the monopoly of damage + control. So your perspective is precisely the nature of the imbalance . This is not theoretical , it is practical , is the story of this game until the end of 2013 .

    Now do not get me wrong , the character selection , the description of the cw suggests massive damage and control. Is it lawful for you have it. The description of gwf / destroyer is the definition of a tarrasque ... I do not have a tarrasque but have the guts (look on youtube a clip of 10:07 sec called " Berserk : Guts vs 100 men") . Anyway , This has nothing to do with any " teen feeling." This is what the seller promised .

    Now we come to a point : the gwf , by definition , need not be protected, the rogue has stealth , and cw dont needs comment . If I rolled the gf , I hope someone protect : spare me the ranger and dc . But both , you see , are better protected by cw . The alternative that remains is to make it a Spartan . Sounds fair , no?

    And answering the umpteenth time this story of " the problem is designe of dungeons " yea , it sucks , but that's what we have . I'd rather have my class well suited to a terrible dungeon than having a perfect class for a dungeon does not exist .

    I'm afraid you're not totally sure about that (Cws) further take into account not only the anime, but the average lore of any tabletop RPG or even adapted as of: ice wind dale, Baldurs gate, never winter nights , dragon age, Planescape torment, etc., etc.. talking like you are not offending me, but offends Gandalf, Saruman, Elminster, Laeral, Khelben the Moonstars and also the harpers and even maybe harry potter lol


    and I also agree that the problem is not only the dungeons, but how the classes are provided for your base and in some cases, forget the tolltips, as we see in fact being turned into bizarre and disproportionate classes! only that! is not either skill, but as they were designed but are disproportionate addition to their usefulness in dungeons or PVP and.
  • hmdq#4491 hmdq Member Posts: 508 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    zacazu wrote: »
    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13501&d=1395109330


    hmmm... The function of the cw is not damage , but control ( by definition ) .

    I do not know when you got into the game , but the large imbalance that exists and that has only been partially broken CURRENTLY due to the fact that the CW had the monopoly of damage + control. So your perspective is precisely the nature of the imbalance . This is not theoretical , it is practical , is the story of this game until the end of 2013 .

    Now do not get me wrong , the character selection , the description of the cw suggests massive damage and control. Is it lawful for you have it. The description of gwf / destroyer is the definition of a tarrasque ... I do not have a tarrasque but have the guts (look on youtube a clip of 10:07 sec called " Berserk : Guts vs 100 men") . Anyway , This has nothing to do with any " teen feeling." This is what the seller promised .

    Now we come to a point : the gwf , by definition , need not be protected, the rogue has stealth , and cw dont needs comment . If I rolled the gf , I hope someone protect : spare me the ranger and dc . But both , you see , are better protected by cw . The alternative that remains is to make it a Spartan . Sounds fair , no?

    And answering the umpteenth time this story of " the problem is designe of dungeons " yea , it sucks , but that's what we have . I'd rather have my class well suited to a terrible dungeon than having a perfect class for a dungeon does not exist .

    tarrasque is virtually immortal and all classes in the game today are still mere epic heroes, nothing more!
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    hquadros wrote: »
    tarrasque is virtually immortal and all classes in the game today are still mere epic heroes, nothing more!

    you know ... this part is a joke ... hahah. and the comparison with the guts too. gwf flies, breaking the sound barrier. Along with this you only think in Justice League (joke again).
  • hmdq#4491 hmdq Member Posts: 508 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    zacazu wrote: »
    you know ... this part is a joke ... hahah. and the comparison with the guts too. gwf flies, breaking the sound barrier. Along with this you only think in Justice League (joke again).

    an ego-GWF talking: tarrasque is weak I can kill him one roar and death or he looks at me and run, run my sword but I reached because im leap as the Hulk and I'm faster than the sonic + usain bolt together! lmao this is the real joke! relaxing because it is better to laugh than cry or even fighting over little thing! lol
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    hquadros wrote: »
    an ego-GWF talking: tarrasque is weak I can kill him one roar and death or he looks at me and run, run my sword but I reached because im leap as the Hulk and I'm faster than the sonic + usain bolt together! lmao this is the real joke! relaxing because it is better to laugh than cry or even fighting over little thing! lol

    hulk no, sir. superman... but I hope that the previous post has been sufficient to make clear that the inability to "redraw the dungeons" or bring the game to the RPG table, certain classes need to break protocol.

    if yes, life goes on. if not, well, the facts are there.no more "two weights and two measures."
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    hquadros

    You forget 1 thing in d&d 2 fighters can and will always counter any other class . The true power and endurance Barbarian (what we have not here ) second is Paladin(+the evil version Blackguard) the true protector and tankhealer resisiting all your spells (what we have not here).
    So dont forget gf and gwf are only the lesser version of those 2 classes . Also cotra CW is the lesser version of wizard the true killers and pvp class is nerco or "pale master"(i think not existed in 4editon) y forget finger of death and other death efferct spells lvl drain etc...
    What is realy wrong how can the worst rouge class TR function like an assasin (the one and only executioner in D&D)?
    Also DC is the ultimate weak version of cleric (more like an adept or somthing) clerics in dnd is owerpowered like druids.
    And rangers are not soo strong like we have here in nw (also i miss companions) not bad but they are balanced in all things have magic heal companions can shoot hide dual wield but all in one cannot one shoot any one they a quick & not slow .

    So my option is this: all we came here waited for a realy good d&d game and we expect somthing more from it but we got the lowest classes in nw "only tr look like to me as a Assasin" what are multiple time nerfed ower and ower agan cuz we have circle somone nerfed gf - then the gfs nerferd tr then the tr nerfed dc then the dc nerfed GWF and here the circle are not closing started from the beggining agan and agan.
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • hmdq#4491 hmdq Member Posts: 508 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    hquadros

    You forget 1 thing in d&d 2 fighters can and will always counter any other class . The true power and endurance Barbarian (what we have not here ) second is Paladin(+the evil version Blackguard) the true protector and tankhealer resisiting all your spells (what we have not here).
    So dont forget gf and gwf are only the lesser version of those 2 classes . Also cotra CW is the lesser version of wizard the true killers and pvp class is nerco or "pale master"(i think not existed in 4editon) y forget finger of death and other death efferct spells lvl drain etc...
    What is realy wrong how can the worst rouge class TR function like an assasin (the one and only executioner in D&D)?
    Also DC is the ultimate weak version of cleric (more like an adept or somthing) clerics in dnd is owerpowered like druids.
    And rangers are not soo strong like we have here in nw (also i miss companions) not bad but they are balanced in all things have magic heal companions can shoot hide dual wield but all in one cannot one shoot any one they a quick & not slow .

    So my option is this: all we came here waited for a realy good d&d game and we expect somthing more from it but we got the lowest classes in nw "only tr look like to me as a Assasin" what are multiple time nerfed ower and ower agan cuz we have circle somone nerfed gf - then the gfs nerferd tr then the tr nerfed dc then the dc nerfed GWF and here the circle are not closing started from the beggining agan and agan.

    yes you are right my examples were based only on what we have in the game is a "tailored" game d & d but I see only the lore! As I said earlier I am completely against nerfs!
  • silverquicksilverquick Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    zacazu wrote: »
    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13501&d=1395109330


    hmmm... The function of the cw is not damage , but control ( by definition ) .

    I do not know when you got into the game , but the large imbalance that exists and that has only been partially broken CURRENTLY due to the fact that the CW had the monopoly of damage + control. So your perspective is precisely the nature of the imbalance . This is not theoretical , it is practical , is the story of this game until the end of 2013 .

    No the real story of the game is that the "control" wizard no longer exists.

    The control powers were severely nerfed long long ago. There was a time in this game when they were pure control wizards... that is no longer the case.... Yeah you're right, according to the definition of Control Wizard that's what they should be.

    It was the total control mage and even more effective than just burning down mobs. The technique was called Sing-boting, This relied heavily on specific things, Entangle (aka Choke), Shield (popping it or bursting it), Enfeeblement, and Repel.

    Literally in one round of doing those you could build your AP all the way up. Then cast, Singularity. Or any one of a number of dailys. and you could do this repeatedly over and over. It meant you never had to use a single nuke outside of Singularity you kept all the mobs off the party, and were basically a total control wizard. Also, there was almost never a time you could not Repel or shove mobs off the edge so Repel and Shield pop were common techniques. Those were generally open, with no invisible walls like there are now in many locations.

    The Devs saw this as an exploit or making the game too easy, and it was thoroughly nerfed. resulting in exactly what you see today... the Nuke wizard with some Control abilities thrown in. The Control Wizard is no longer really about control in the classic sense. It's about control through AoE damage because now its the only way you can manage a dungeon given the massive numbers of mobs that flood the party and keep them alive.

    There were previously alternate paths and playstyles, but one by one they were nerfed until we ended up with only one option.... nuke heavy... control light.

    The Devs reversed course on the Control Mage... and have stuck to their decision on this.

    It is no longer the Control Mage, its now just the old Magic User/Sorcerer class of D&D.
  • ninefingers222ninefingers222 Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Skimmed through this thread and was yet again shocked at how clueless most players on this game are .
    Go gear up before you start crying for nerfs, completely normal you get owned by a fully geared GWF or any other class if you are on rank 5 and lesser enchants .
    Having faced most of the top tier pvpers on this game I can tell you most classes IF BUILT, GEARED, and PLAYED correctly are what you would consider OP, (DC aside and GF to a lesser degree, cause in the right hands a GF can be really tough, as for the good pvp DC, they will not kill you in a 1VS1 but they are extremely hard to kill, he or she is an extremely useful team player who buffs/debuffs and heals)
    In high level pvp nowadays, GWF's get destroyed by good TR's (one shot SE anyone?), and a good HR or CW are insanely good, a melee HR is more tanky than a GWF or GF, and a well played CW will always dodge your prones, with infinite dashes (oh yeah that exists if you build for it) dwindling your HP down if they are patient and more focused on dodging your attacks and CCing you, instead of face tanking you like 90% of CW's .
    Don't get me wrong GWF's are still really good but we are incapable of tanking more than 1 player who aren't complete nubs, 2 players from any class that KNOW how to play will destroy any well geared GWF, the emblem of seldarine will slow them down a wee bit, but eventually you will go down, my guesstimate would be around 30 seconds, on the other hand I can still tank 3-4 clueless/undergeared/underskilled players, the kind of nubs that have no clue what their role in pvp is, we all here have met the melee CW, lol, that kind of nub probably doesn't even know what the emblem is since they keep on hitting you when you proc it, thus all of those "GWF is still OP threads", aka "I am a clueless nub who expects to beat waaaaay better geared/built players threads" .
    Anyways sorry for sounding so condescending but I am really sick of reading the same BS, learn how to build a pvp toon, farm for gear like the rest of us or pay to win, learn how to play, take your pick, but you cant expect to be as good as the people who do all of the above, if you have not done any of the above .
    Essence of Aggression, OG PvP GWF
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Skimmed through this thread and was yet again shocked at how clueless most players on this game are .
    Go gear up before you start crying for nerfs, completely normal you get owned by a fully geared GWF or any other class if you are on rank 5 and lesser enchants .
    Having faced most of the top tier pvpers on this game I can tell you most classed IF BUILT, GEARED, and PLAYED correctly are what you would consider OP, (DC aside and GF to a lesser degree, cause in the right hands a GF can be really tough, as for the good pvp DC, he will not kill you in a 1VS1 but he will be extremely hard to kill)
    In high level pvp nowadays, GWF's get destroyed by good TR's, and a good HR or CW are insanely good, a melee HR is more tanky than a GWF or GF, and a well played CW will always dodge your prones, with infinite dashes (oh yeah that exists if you build for it) dwindling your HP down if they are patient and more focused on dodging you, instead of face tanking you like 90% of CW's .
    Don't get me wrong GWF's are still really good but we are incapable of tanking more than 1 player that aren't complete nubs, 2 players from any class that KNOW how to play will destroy any well geared GWF, the emblem of seldarine will slow them down a wee bit, but eventually you will go down, my guesstimate would be around 30 seconds, on the other hand I can tank still tank 3-4 clueless/undergeared/underskilled players, the kind of nubs that have no clue what their role is in pvp, we all here have met the melee CW, lol those nubs probably don't even know what the emblem is since they keep on hitting you when you proc it, thus all the GWF is still OP threads .

    That's more or less my point of view too.
  • ninefingers222ninefingers222 Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Yeah I read your earlier post, and agreed with it, made me angry to see it was barely even acknowledged, since it was the most pertinent post in this thread .
    Essence of Aggression, OG PvP GWF
  • pers3phonepers3phone Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    If you get killed by ANY CW as a geared PvP GWF, it's time to /deletechar.

    There are NO infinite dodges, just Severe Reaction procs and stamina boon, yes they help, but you don't get infinite dodges at all.

    All you have to do is spam that idiotic Threatening Rush, don't lose your Frontline like a no0b GWF since it's easy as hell to land (I managed to land it consistently on a few of the most pro CWs out there... and I'm a newbie GWF), then Takedown, IBS, GG, CW is almost dead or dead if not a PvP HP build. Repel is resisted 50% of the times if you're not a halfling, 90% of the times if halfling, so this very good defense is not efficient any longer. Kiting with freeze is risky cause you don;t want to make the GWF unstoppable before you do the combo on it, emblem is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> cause if you attack you heal the GWF, if you don't he will start regenning.

    If you're noobish enough to be unable to land FLS, switch to roar please. Long stun (not affected by Tenacity?!?), takedown, IBS, GG.

    Again.

    You get killed by CWs?

    /deletechar.
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