I wouldn't blame the classes here, I'd blame the dungeons and how they're designed. Unfortunately the "mindless swarm of mobs" approach that plagued every dungeon is primarily responsible for AoE classes (mainly CWs and GWFs) being so self-sufficient and all-inclusive at higher ends of the gear spectrum.
Also that's Chem, seriously guys, don't complain about OP CWs but just 1 example. If you're making the top 0.01% players your benchmark for nerfhammering whole classes (while even good TRs routinely out-damage average CWs and the best GWFs always out-damage good CWs) you'll just end up with a really badly scaled game. CN is supposed to be a T2.5 fight, manageable by people who have normal/greater weapon enchantments and <14k GS at most. It's already ridiculously scaled up. If people can 2-man T2s with 13k GS, they should be able to 3-man CN at 16k at least.
but it did also clearly demonstrate how borken, err, better suited CW are for dungeons than other classes. And not just for this particular dungeon, but pretty much every single one in fact.
...
I can turn that around and say that it shows how broken the dungeons are. CW's are the ONLY class that can truly deal with endless quantities of adds. Of course they will LOOK OP compared to other classes, but it's all relative.
Other classes need to get some form of control abilities. HR's are a controller class yet they have no control abilities.
I can turn that around and say that it shows how broken the dungeons are. CW's are the ONLY class that can truly deal with endless quantities of adds. Of course they will LOOK OP compared to other classes, but it's all relative.
Of course it is much, much easier for the Devs change class skills than all the dungeons.
When the GWF was a joke, the Devs didn't make dungeons more relevant for GWFs, but rather buffed the GWF. 99% of the time in an MMOs when a class that is either too strong or too weak then the Devs will change the class(es) rather than dungeons to solve the situation.
Of course it is much, much easier for the Devs change class skills than all the dungeons.
When the GWF was a joke, the Devs didn't make dungeons more relevant for GWFs, but rather buffed the GWF. 99% of the time in an MMOs when a class that is either too strong or too weak then the Devs will change the class(es) rather than dungeons to solve the situation.
Totally agree. I think if they made the other classes more viable you would see more balanced group selections, less QQ about how worthless some classes are and about how OP CW's look.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
LOL at people commenting on speed. Go back to baby mode CN runs. This is a good legit showcase run striking on basic CW skills and rotations
Thank you, i think that's half the point
here here, all about dungeon design.
Sure, people tend to not take TR/GF/HR, and so TR/GF/HR complain, but it's a dungeon where even if we do baby pulls we pull 10-15 adds, these classes aren't great at dealing with such quantities.
Ever play TR in MC? that is a BLAST. GF in MC is also a BLAST, what's the difference? smaller pulls of tougher mobs that can't be controlled - get more dungeons like that and TR/GF really have place.
For other classes:
GWF are awesome. if I control and the GWF with a perfect vorpal comes and swings through the sing the DPS is insane and awesome. Even a tankier GWF can hold aggro on draco, stabilize him, and debuff with student of the sword - so GWF is very useful.
DC - a good DC is wonderful - they create room for error with heals/buffs, then if you put on top divine glow and high prophet set, they increase team DPS significantly. I never mind running with a good DC.
HR - HR in dungeon is a DPS add on, but a HR is only as good as the CW in front of him. Also, we haven't figured out the class yet.
Now as a consolation, I think TR is amazing in PvP. I have a 9k wisperknife and I do better in PvP than on my CW (true story). CW is terrible in PvP, but i don't complain HR and GWF are also great in PvP.
GF has the toughest spot, but i think they are really good when the team isn't overgeared. In addition, they are fun to play GF is my second favorite PvE class, actually.
So other classes have a spot, it's just with this many adds, a CW is "Required." It is totally possible to do CN with one CW (I've done it), but requires more coordination.
I think the inflexibility of groups is more about the mindset of people setting up the groups rather than the classes themselves.
I think the inflexibility of groups is more about the mindset of people setting up the groups rather than the classes themselves.
Yep. Sometimes I pug for fun and get gasps of surprise when I suggest 2 HR's or no CW, no DC, let the cleric kite in Karru, etc. People just have no flexibility when it comes to adjusting their strategy with funny comp groups.
Sure, people tend to not take TR/GF/HR, and so TR/GF/HR complain, but it's a dungeon where even if we do baby pulls we pull 10-15 adds, these classes aren't great at dealing with such quantities.
Ever play TR in MC? that is a BLAST. GF in MC is also a BLAST, what's the difference? smaller pulls of tougher mobs that can't be controlled - get more dungeons like that and TR/GF really have place.
For other classes:
GWF are awesome. if I control and the GWF with a perfect vorpal comes and swings through the sing the DPS is insane and awesome. Even a tankier GWF can hold aggro on draco, stabilize him, and debuff with student of the sword - so GWF is very useful.
DC - a good DC is wonderful - they create room for error with heals/buffs, then if you put on top divine glow and high prophet set, they increase team DPS significantly. I never mind running with a good DC.
HR - HR in dungeon is a DPS add on, but a HR is only as good as the CW in front of him. Also, we haven't figured out the class yet.
Now as a consolation, I think TR is amazing in PvP. I have a 9k wisperknife and I do better in PvP than on my CW (true story). CW is terrible in PvP, but i don't complain HR and GWF are also great in PvP.
GF has the toughest spot, but i think they are really good when the team isn't overgeared. In addition, they are fun to play GF is my second favorite PvE class, actually.
So other classes have a spot, it's just with this many adds, a CW is "Required." It is totally possible to do CN with one CW (I've done it), but requires more coordination.
I think the inflexibility of groups is more about the mindset of people setting up the groups rather than the classes themselves.
chemboy613 first of all: really congratulations!
after this i want to say: i admire your tentative of discuss, but all here knows how much CW are OP in PVE and TR in PVP, and i think it is still wrong for the balance and the economy of the game. if i chose a class is because i like it and i enjoy the mechanism and the playstyle, like to heal for a DC or damage output for a TR/HR, tankiness and aggro for GF/GWF and i wanna be useful both in pve and in pvp. to see this video by any player that aren't a CW is a little "annoyng and frustrating", but not because of you and your teamate, but because of the game and the devs choice and balance, because in their logic they thinks is better to nerf "hammer of fate"...
so again, it's nothing against you, only a discussion about the actual gameplay overall.
sorry for my bad english, i hope you can understand my language and my point of view
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
after this i want to say: i admire your tentative of discuss, but all here knows how much CW are OP in PVE and TR in PVP, and i think it is still wrong for the balance and the economy of the game. if i chose a class is because i like it and i enjoy the mechanism and the playstyle, like to heal for a DC or damage output for a TR/HR, tankiness and aggro for GF/GWF and i wanna be useful both in pve and in pvp. to see this video by any player that aren't a CW is a little "annoyng and frustrating", but not because of you and your teamate, but because of the game and the devs choice and balance, because in their logic they thinks is better to nerf "hammer of fate"...
so again, it's nothing against you, only a discussion about the actual gameplay overall.
sorry for my bad english, i hope you can understand my language and my point of view
Of course man. I think people should play what they want and how they want in general, but that doesn't change the fact that some things are better in some situations than others.
I think it's kinda funny how good my second TR is in PvP. She is 10.1k GS (finally got T1 PvP set) never drops stealth and takes 3 people to kill, i just lob disheartening strike, run in circles and drive the other team batty... we win a lot.
That said in the same situation if I brought either CW to PvP, i would be dead in 5-10 seconds. PvP CW is so difficult to play and even if played well, is not as effective as TR/HR/GWF.
CN is the opposite. My CW is great in CN, but if i brought my TR in there, my team would be better off four manning it. While my TR/GF does as well as I can, it's nowhere near as effective as much CW.
I know it's a extreme example. We just did two very smooth clears (and a 2:20 draco kill) with a well played TR, and that's great. Stacking wicked reminder on draco is really awesome, but the runs are smooth because the CWs did their job
I would very much like a new dungeon where the classes have more similar usefulness, but as long as we are fighting so many mobs at once, AOE classes make more sense.
I would again mention that teamwork is far more important than anything else here. Good teamwork is worth more than team composition or gear score. Don't be afraid to try different comps, just be sure to always, always, always work together.
ebonyshadowMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Firstly congrats, darn good teamwork. For other folks who are moaning about CW's being OP, no they are not. Take into account the skill of the guys you watched..... Get someone equally skilled with another class and they will also do much better than you might expect. Yes it is a good class.... The other classes have their strong points too! I have at least one of each class, each one is enjoyable. Each one can be played well or played badly.... the biggest factor is the player, not the class!
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
Firstly congrats, darn good teamwork. For other folks who are moaning about CW's being OP, no they are not. Take into account the skill of the guys you watched..... Get someone equally skilled with another class and they will also do much better than you might expect. Yes it is a good class.... The other classes have their strong points too! I have at least one of each class, each one is enjoyable. Each one can be played well or played badly.... the biggest factor is the player, not the class!
it seems easier than it once was dosn't it? yesterday night brought it to 15% in a 5 man no healer setup without any vodoo <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Thing would've sounded absurd a few months ago... is it just me?
Then later we found out about the Voodoo being perfomed by some clerics nowadays. magic never goes away, it just focuses elsewhere.
whoa quickly went out of subject here, my bad. to get it back on track.
Very skilled players there. not something that'll happen in a casual setup. Very impressive.
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teflondon75Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
You guys seem so cheerful it makes any sort of retort seem silly haha, but really I must. I would not advocate nerfs in any way but rather bringing other classes up to snuff. The fact is...yes I'll say it, fact...no other classes can do this with such ease and swiftness(TR's perma stealthing do NOT count lol) No matter the skill nor the gear. There is simply too much Hard CC combined with such Tier:1(godly...easily over 9000!) dps. It's largely irrelevant if CW is difficult in PvP, @Skilled+Geared@ CW's are a complete terror and I've seen more than a few skilled PvP'ers yelling to get the darn wizzies. That does not, imo at least, give them the right to hold all the keys in PvE land.
Another thing that is irrelevant to a discussion like this --> being able to do the content with a multi color group. So what if others can do it when it's twice as sloppy and twice as slow? Well, I do, and so do lots I'm sure. But that doesn't change the fact that there is one class to rule them all. GWF's seem in a nice spot. Not Quite as good but nice. HR's can do damage, but ZERO control and over all add less in party contributions as well seem VERY reliant on the skill/makeup of the rest of the party. Also, I've seen skilled and VERY geared HR's do draco and still fall many several million total damage less all the while adding less quality of life bonuses to the party. GF/TR obviously need some options here even more. DC will always have a nice spot for most parties and as my main(or was) I'm not concerned for her.
It's not the CW's fault though, nor anybody else. It's the game/instance design. They should have known if they make 75% of all PvE content chalk full of adds that higher cap ability classes will simply be better. I'm also very curious what the heck they will do when they add in the REAL dps/full striker mages to NW. Will they have even MOAR!! dps? Holy smokes!
PS: Great video btw, I really did enjoy watching it! Makes me want to dust off my CW again
man u guys are crying cw class is OP , but its not that CW class is OP but the CN dungeon play style is made for the CW to play, massive load of mobs with no immune to CC , and even if u go sometimes with party of 5 with 16k+ score with 3 CW GWF and DC sometimes the coordination is so ****ty , that u want to quit that run.
what these guys did was awesome , i admit CW class is OP in controlling and damaging a hoard of mobs but that's what the class is made for, its not CW fault that the dungeon is made for the CW to shine, there is no need to balance class but need to change the mob characteristics in dungeon by introducing some CC immune mobs , which will make other class to actively participate in dungeon.
and guys awesome teamwork hates offf.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
Lol, hillarious reply Don (I am also Don, btw),
let's hope the next dungeon is a) farmable and b) not 1000000 little adds. Will help to quell this disucssion!
There are some good CW builds out there. If you pick one that suits your style, have reasonable stats, and watch videos like this to see how to play, you should be doing fine.
And yeah, we don't need a DC, but a good DC is very nice.
Work together and play what you love. The problem is there is only one real profitable dungeon and that dungeon is full of AoE, if there was another dungeon with good BoE gear _and_ maybe it would have more single target encounters, then there is far less issues I am going to look forward to that.
I hear you about outgrowing the content. We really need a new farmable top tier dungeon. I'm mostly working on a PvP TR these days and I might start playing my lvl 51 HR again for some fun PvP at 60.
I hear you about outgrowing the content. We really need a new farmable top tier dungeon. I'm mostly working on a PvP TR these days and I might start playing my lvl 51 HR again for some fun PvP at 60.
- Blay
Gratz - I think 4 is smallest pure GWF party for this.
What is the record for fewest numbers of a pure class? I don't think I have seen any 5 TR, DC, GF, or HR clears yet. I think there was a run by 2 CWs once, but could be wrong?
I doubt that 5 TRs have cleared all of CN. I've heard of ppl going all TR for fun, but I doubt they were legit full clears. Would easily be possible but it would take some time. Bosses would die fast tho.
3 CW's is what most people clear CN with, so what gives? DC needed? Nope. The GWF/TR is only used in runs to run last campfire and provide some damage to draco for a bit faster kill. Do it with 2 CW.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
Heard ashema/shaz 2 manned CN. my friends Ekso/Socio have gotten to 5% before.
I have also seen 2CW/TR and 2CW/HR and 2CW/GWF seen 2CW/DC from 50% (no 2CW/GF... lol?)
and yeah frost, i never said we were the only team we just made a video. Most people i know run 4 man teams. We do 5 man b/c I don't want to leave people out.
Blay if you ever want to try stacking TR for the hell of it, i wouldn't mind trying that sometime.
Comments
Also that's Chem, seriously guys, don't complain about OP CWs but just 1 example. If you're making the top 0.01% players your benchmark for nerfhammering whole classes (while even good TRs routinely out-damage average CWs and the best GWFs always out-damage good CWs) you'll just end up with a really badly scaled game. CN is supposed to be a T2.5 fight, manageable by people who have normal/greater weapon enchantments and <14k GS at most. It's already ridiculously scaled up. If people can 2-man T2s with 13k GS, they should be able to 3-man CN at 16k at least.
I can turn that around and say that it shows how broken the dungeons are. CW's are the ONLY class that can truly deal with endless quantities of adds. Of course they will LOOK OP compared to other classes, but it's all relative.
Other classes need to get some form of control abilities. HR's are a controller class yet they have no control abilities.
Of course it is much, much easier for the Devs change class skills than all the dungeons.
When the GWF was a joke, the Devs didn't make dungeons more relevant for GWFs, but rather buffed the GWF. 99% of the time in an MMOs when a class that is either too strong or too weak then the Devs will change the class(es) rather than dungeons to solve the situation.
Totally agree. I think if they made the other classes more viable you would see more balanced group selections, less QQ about how worthless some classes are and about how OP CW's look.
Thank you, i think that's half the point
here here, all about dungeon design.
Sure, people tend to not take TR/GF/HR, and so TR/GF/HR complain, but it's a dungeon where even if we do baby pulls we pull 10-15 adds, these classes aren't great at dealing with such quantities.
Ever play TR in MC? that is a BLAST. GF in MC is also a BLAST, what's the difference? smaller pulls of tougher mobs that can't be controlled - get more dungeons like that and TR/GF really have place.
For other classes:
GWF are awesome. if I control and the GWF with a perfect vorpal comes and swings through the sing the DPS is insane and awesome. Even a tankier GWF can hold aggro on draco, stabilize him, and debuff with student of the sword - so GWF is very useful.
DC - a good DC is wonderful - they create room for error with heals/buffs, then if you put on top divine glow and high prophet set, they increase team DPS significantly. I never mind running with a good DC.
HR - HR in dungeon is a DPS add on, but a HR is only as good as the CW in front of him. Also, we haven't figured out the class yet.
Now as a consolation, I think TR is amazing in PvP. I have a 9k wisperknife and I do better in PvP than on my CW (true story). CW is terrible in PvP, but i don't complain
GF has the toughest spot, but i think they are really good when the team isn't overgeared. In addition, they are fun to play
So other classes have a spot, it's just with this many adds, a CW is "Required." It is totally possible to do CN with one CW (I've done it), but requires more coordination.
I think the inflexibility of groups is more about the mindset of people setting up the groups rather than the classes themselves.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Very positive viewpoint.
It is a pleasure to meet someone like you on these forums who is nice enough to post such a helpful video for less experienced CWs.
TY
/10 char
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Yep. Sometimes I pug for fun and get gasps of surprise when I suggest 2 HR's or no CW, no DC, let the cleric kite in Karru, etc. People just have no flexibility when it comes to adjusting their strategy with funny comp groups.
chemboy613 first of all: really congratulations!
after this i want to say: i admire your tentative of discuss, but all here knows how much CW are OP in PVE and TR in PVP, and i think it is still wrong for the balance and the economy of the game. if i chose a class is because i like it and i enjoy the mechanism and the playstyle, like to heal for a DC or damage output for a TR/HR, tankiness and aggro for GF/GWF and i wanna be useful both in pve and in pvp. to see this video by any player that aren't a CW is a little "annoyng and frustrating", but not because of you and your teamate, but because of the game and the devs choice and balance, because in their logic they thinks is better to nerf "hammer of fate"...
so again, it's nothing against you, only a discussion about the actual gameplay overall.
sorry for my bad english, i hope you can understand my language and my point of view
Of course man. I think people should play what they want and how they want in general, but that doesn't change the fact that some things are better in some situations than others.
I think it's kinda funny how good my second TR is in PvP. She is 10.1k GS (finally got T1 PvP set) never drops stealth and takes 3 people to kill, i just lob disheartening strike, run in circles and drive the other team batty... we win a lot.
That said in the same situation if I brought either CW to PvP, i would be dead in 5-10 seconds. PvP CW is so difficult to play and even if played well, is not as effective as TR/HR/GWF.
CN is the opposite. My CW is great in CN, but if i brought my TR in there, my team would be better off four manning it. While my TR/GF does as well as I can, it's nowhere near as effective as much CW.
I know it's a extreme example. We just did two very smooth clears (and a 2:20 draco kill) with a well played TR, and that's great. Stacking wicked reminder on draco is really awesome, but the runs are smooth because the CWs did their job
I would very much like a new dungeon where the classes have more similar usefulness, but as long as we are fighting so many mobs at once, AOE classes make more sense.
I would again mention that teamwork is far more important than anything else here. Good teamwork is worth more than team composition or gear score. Don't be afraid to try different comps, just be sure to always, always, always work together.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
TY
+1
/10 char
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Then later we found out about the Voodoo being perfomed by some clerics nowadays. magic never goes away, it just focuses elsewhere.
whoa quickly went out of subject here, my bad. to get it back on track.
Very skilled players there. not something that'll happen in a casual setup. Very impressive.
Another thing that is irrelevant to a discussion like this --> being able to do the content with a multi color group. So what if others can do it when it's twice as sloppy and twice as slow? Well, I do, and so do lots I'm sure. But that doesn't change the fact that there is one class to rule them all. GWF's seem in a nice spot. Not Quite as good but nice. HR's can do damage, but ZERO control and over all add less in party contributions as well seem VERY reliant on the skill/makeup of the rest of the party. Also, I've seen skilled and VERY geared HR's do draco and still fall many several million total damage less all the while adding less quality of life bonuses to the party. GF/TR obviously need some options here even more. DC will always have a nice spot for most parties and as my main(or was) I'm not concerned for her.
It's not the CW's fault though, nor anybody else. It's the game/instance design. They should have known if they make 75% of all PvE content chalk full of adds that higher cap ability classes will simply be better. I'm also very curious what the heck they will do when they add in the REAL dps/full striker mages to NW. Will they have even MOAR!! dps? Holy smokes!
PS: Great video btw, I really did enjoy watching it! Makes me want to dust off my CW again
what these guys did was awesome , i admit CW class is OP in controlling and damaging a hoard of mobs but that's what the class is made for, its not CW fault that the dungeon is made for the CW to shine, there is no need to balance class but need to change the mob characteristics in dungeon by introducing some CC immune mobs , which will make other class to actively participate in dungeon.
and guys awesome teamwork hates offf.
let's hope the next dungeon is a) farmable and b) not 1000000 little adds. Will help to quell this disucssion!
There are some good CW builds out there. If you pick one that suits your style, have reasonable stats, and watch videos like this to see how to play, you should be doing fine.
And yeah, we don't need a DC, but a good DC is very nice.
Work together and play what you love. The problem is there is only one real profitable dungeon and that dungeon is full of AoE, if there was another dungeon with good BoE gear _and_ maybe it would have more single target encounters, then there is far less issues
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Hey, Makaria.
4 GWF as of y-day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyaSqlK6cc
I hear you about outgrowing the content. We really need a new farmable top tier dungeon. I'm mostly working on a PvP TR these days and I might start playing my lvl 51 HR again for some fun PvP at 60.
- Blay
Gratz - I think 4 is smallest pure GWF party for this.
What is the record for fewest numbers of a pure class? I don't think I have seen any 5 TR, DC, GF, or HR clears yet. I think there was a run by 2 CWs once, but could be wrong?
Idk about GF, DC, HR or 2 CW full clear.
- Blay
I have also seen 2CW/TR and 2CW/HR and 2CW/GWF seen 2CW/DC from 50% (no 2CW/GF... lol?)
and yeah frost, i never said we were the only team
Blay if you ever want to try stacking TR for the hell of it, i wouldn't mind trying that sometime.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
- Blay