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Right. TR's are so gimped..
kweassa
Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
Not.
...
Joke aside, as I've been able to do more matches and field tests, I'm getting more and more conviction that my initial hunch was right.
1. The answer does not lie with stacking up more defenses. My hunch is that the answer lies in using Tenacity as much as possible a safety margin to juice out stats/investments and shift it to offense.
2. Spiking as much as possible powerful damage EVEN AT THE RISK OF MELEE RANGE, is now greatly more preferable than sustained, constant damage from stealth (ie. lobbing knives from the dark). It seems if you don't have enough spiking power to take someone out, a stout, defensive build just seems to mean a long, grueling process of inevitable and eventual defeat.
3. Point 2, naturally implies TRs now need to focus more on landing important, powerful melee skills, rather than resort to ranged attacks. Ranged knives are now not much more than a nuisance.
4. The play style, and role of stealth seems to agree better with my type of tactics, rather than the traditional ones, with the new meta. The traditional style is to use as much stealth as possible to deal sustained, constant damage with knives. My style is to use stealth as a set-up tool for that central melee attack, and simply blow stealth and activate the special effects it grants TR encounter powers if it is necessary, rather than cling on to it in hopes of longer stealth duration.
5. Elven Battle works. Elven Battle works even better with Halfling. Elven Battle Halfling = grasping roots or CW roots going away really quick.
6. Defense debuff, does seem to have a very distinct, noticeably positive effect. Looks like prices of Plaguefire or Bronzewood might start to go up.
7. Queue is now much longer, after the fix, in my case averages arounbd 5~8 minutes it seems. However, the fights are also longer -- meaning yes, the queue system really is trying to bring together people with less performance gaps in between. For me, matches average in around 11~15 minutes, which prior, usually ended within 10.
8. There are now distinct gaps within the GWFs. The top-notch, very top level GWFs now seem even more difficult to kill. However, anything below them in the hierarchy, really do die out much faster. So the best of them became even more threatening, but the 2nd or 3rd class GWF hordes, have now become much easier to kill. (weird.)
9. We now need at least SOME Power. Every bit of power, every little bit of extra damage you can muster, means a bit of enemy Tenacity is offset (not bypassed, but still higher base damage will result in higher actual damage despite Tenactiy DamRes.) The Power stats on the new gear, is not necessarily a bad thing.
Will try to test out as much as possible. Might even try switching over temporarily to MI in hopes of finding viable alternatives in MI TR tactics -- preferably melee oriented.
...
Brothers, it's way too soon to despair.
There is always something new to be found out. Please don't get discouraged, and please let's not act like the horde of newbie QQers. Let us try to view this as an opportunity to widen our knowledge of what TRs can do, and what different methods of fighting styles we may use. There's more to this new PvP patch, and I intend to find out.
Come on, guys, let's cheer up. We're rogues, dammit.
Stop making excuses. Be a man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Post edited by kweassa on
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Not sure morenthar.
Maybe its because its still early in the rating-making process, but the queue system now does match up more people with less gaps in gear level, which means I am now facing more well-equipped people than ever -- and yet, as it is, I don't find anything has worsened for TRs in PvP. Ofcourse, someone will always come and say "That will never work in higher level PvP", so at this point I'm just trying my best to increase whatever rank/rating I have, and eventually I will arrive at the "higher level" -- then we'll probably see if it works or not.
As it is, (in no small part due to not using ANY of the powers/builds/tactics the 'orthodox' TR community upholds) currently there is no nerf to my personal situation. Things do seem more balanced for me, but admittedly, with every match I do see the "conventional" TR people whether be they my team or the opponent's, seem to struggle more.
My opinion is its too early to make conclusions. Things have just begun. We could either choose to accept this as a given fact more proactively, or keep sulking down and chant the doom of the world. I'd definately prefer the former -- TRs are an optimistic bunch.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
When I first started I thought I was good when using a max DEX/STR TR with lashing blade, deft strike, and dazing strike (without enchants and t1 gear) because I would often get lots of kills with less deaths than kills in my matches. Only rarely would I run into really geared people who would steamroll our team and I would assume it was just because my team overall wasn't good enough since I was doing so well in the 75% of other matches. This didn't reflect actual skill or how well this build was when it comes to truly competitive pvp though.
Also, looking at the scores as a whole, it is clear the ally team in that picture was extremely better than the opposing team. It is easy for damage builds to exceed at getting kills on a team that is rolling the other team rather than when you are faced against an equal team where you will need to actually take pressure. (Hence, defense).
Not to say things haven't changed and other builds could be more viable now, but from my experiences on preview and now, that seems to be the case still.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
VV I'll see if I can record a few matches.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Heh. Have you seen the state of PvP on CO? Don't hold your breath.
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Interesting subject.
I've actually played all three of their four major games, CoH/V, CO and now NW. Never got to fiddle with STO. Having played all those major games and PvP, I've gotta say Cryptic has this way of implementing systems, tweaks, mechanisms that are... well.. 'cryptic'. Many of them are more profound, and actually very delicately balanced than people might think.
Same with CO -- a very grand experiment, perhaps a game to go down in history as its freeform builds were absolutely delightful. The problem unfortunately was they never really got to balancing out the "super-survivability hybrid ranegd DPS/tank builds" .. frickin Ebon Ruin, lol. However, one thing I could give them, even with CO, is that the freeform allowed as much freedom to build such FotM OP builds, but also specific counter-builds that coudl tear them apart. It was an absolute thrill to discover a way to neuter the Invul/Dodge tank/DPS with a very peculiar, specialized TK energy sap/lockdown build. That kind of fun, you find only in Cryptic games, discovering/rediscovering often overlooked powers, that when really studied deeply, often yields amazing results.
It's the same with NW in my opinion.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
It's 10 second activation after 1st encounter hit the target, and then 10 second down time. If you can practice a bit to optimize your primary attacks within the 1st 10 seconds, and then "fade out" for the next 10, you won't regret it.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
http://youtu.be/QiOIRf5K6Ls
Like mentioned in the opening post, in my case almost none of the 'nerfs' affected me directly except Tenacity dam.res. and the stun duration of VP being shortened (although VP stun itself is barely long enough to allow Dazing Strike to connect, hence it was less effected than other classes that use longer duration CCs).
Wasn't a bad match. I think its safe to say I probably showcased everything I've written about the techniques/combos I've developed since day 1 of its introduction in this forum.
I want to ask you guys to remember, this thread really isn't about me. I just hope the TR community can get over this defeatism, and try to look at the brighter side of things, and consider the patch as an opportunity rather than a depression... trying new things out, and I hope the TR players can remember what it was like when you were all levelling the character up.. learning new skills, trying new combos, thinking about making your own, and all that stuff that made playing a TR fun. If a change is upon us, please, let us enjoy it to better ourselves as players.. !
...
(ps) Switched to Perfect Bronzewood enchantment at 05:09 of the video. Note the sudden increase in damage spiking done to the DC as soon as BW came into works... (...and then I make the fatal error of not watching for respawned enemies.. and get faceplanted..)
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
EDIT: I saw the video, WTF is wrong with some of these? why don't they even fight back? XD I wish I had ever faced a GWF that doesn't attack me and runs away instead XD
I think he didn't like the way I fought him.
I can dare say that's probably the first time he (if he hadn't met me before), as a GWF, had been hit so many times consistently with Dazing Strike at the pin-point timing when he loses his CC immunity... more damage until Unstoppable is back up, at which point I disappear, rinse and repeat.
Much higher risk than the perma-method of dealing with GWFs, up close and personal, but potentially much more rewarding when executed perfectly.
...still, it doesn't work against the monster-level ones tho. Nothing works against them anyway.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
I like it. Great gameplay and gives me hope.
www.fusion-guild.org
Sir Howitzer - GF | Howitzer - HR
Hey I see you're posting in this thread kweassa you are not ignoring my post are you?
Nice vid. Definitely looks like you are doing better now compared to your previous vids. Your damage is better than I expected too, especially for being non vorpal/excecutioner when I just recently was matched up against you as well. Unfortunately that match was a blow out though, and I couldn't do much or really get to see how you were doing with how ridiculously undergeared my character still is due to deleting my main once I had quit ~1 month ago. This induced much QQ from me as you probably saw :P, but then again it was always 2v1 and 35% 3v1 +. Very frustrating when you can't afford gear/boons/artifacts anywhere near like you used to, but once I get my next lv 60 to replace the one I deleted I will be able to make money the way I used to and rebuild fast.
Looks like you are doing better than I expected + better than your previous vids. Can't wait to hopefully get paired up against you again in a few weeks to really gauge how things are going with your WK.
Thank you for your interest.
Come on TRs, the world's not ending. We can adapt to this.
Believe me, I've been playing MMOGs for 20 years, and in every online game I've played in those two decades, I've learned this:
Us stealth-class players are always the most nasty, tough, resilient, and strangely optimistic bunch of surviving summbi****s in any game, so hang in there!
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Sent a friend request, keltz0r.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
--
So far, I've been winning a lot of fights with Bait n Switch instead of using Shadow Strike. Reason why is I kinda juke them when I VP(tele) + Dazing Strike + Sly Flourish + Bait n Switch (when they retaliate). This way I save my Stamina and get Action Points. Pretty funny when they go all out on my clone LMFAO I then repeat and now that they used their good encounters on my clone, my team just eats them up.
You should see my ImpactStun combo.
I came up with it in hopes of finding an alternate use/purpose for Impact Shot which some whiney TRs have been screaming useless. It's sort of a makeshift VP-DaS combo and borrows the original idea, and uses Impact Shot as a zero-range stun power to land a Dazing Strike as a follow-up within the duration. Easily possible since IS stun is a lot longer in duration than VP's.
The problem is, this is a team-combo. You need to be the 'traditional rogue' that goes into stealth and backstabs people while they are fighting someone else, or seek out someone who is alone and just standing on the node. Otherwise, in an active 1v1 or any situation where the enemy knows you are there (or against classes who love moving around -- TRs), it's much too difficult to land.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Hmmm...well so far I use IS as a utility when taking nodes in Hotenow. So basically, IS to push the enemies off and they have to run back up the stairs. Another way that I see it is just stun far away for someone else and that is it. Since my encounters are gap closers/melee. I tried going for a ranged build. CoS and Dish, Dagger Threat, IS + SS + Blitz or PoB. Along with Mocking Knave. It was just too safe for me, idk. It lost the dangers that rogues are supposed to be in.
Anyways, BnS is awesome instead of SS since I get to spam dailies a lot more and literally trick the enemies with the clone and go behind them or run away. Might as well because I'm using the Scoundrel path. This is why I love playing as the Whisperknife because with VP...a lot of combos can happen. My main goal is to actually distract the enemy team and juke/confuse them with the Rolling Slash technique followed by BnS. Going back and forth all the time.
I was PvPing much after the patch. After I learned how the changes affected the fights and my ELO stabilized I must say I think changes were positive, at least for me. Some things below are general remarks, some are related to Barleone's build, some my random thought:
1. PvP is much more fun without mass leavers and much more balanced teams. Sure, sometimes algorithm throws against you strange parties like mixture of premade (2 strong, high GS players from one guild and 3 total fresh 8 GS). I think algorithm makes some average ELO/GS of the players in a team and since the average is around 12K, I'm matched with them (my GS is around 12.2K). So such fights are strange – some people are unkillable, some are just out of place and rolfstomped. Regardless, it is miles ahead the previous solution.
2. I used limited healing in PvP (didn't spend glory on potions, marginal regeneration stat, bad timing on raven usaes, etc), so I'm not affected by healing depression that much (less HP from lifesteal does not mean that much anyway). I was used to no healing so now when opponents heal slower it is an advantage for me.
3. Tenacity works! I have only T1 Scavenger set, but even that helps. Will get more PvP gear when I can afford.
4.Fights are slower, less lethal CC chains - I may play more tactically, can plan my action and be more active than passive. It's less "OMG, I must survive and do some damage whenever opponents make a mistake", more "I dps and avoid/counter the worst attacks/powers whenever necessary".
5. GWFs are killable! Now I see how many GWFs previously were in fact using OPness of their class to win but were just terrible players. Well, I'm right now tweaking my skillbar/rotation to be GWF assassin
My current approach to PvP is based on Barleone's build but I utilize semi-perma stealth a little bit differently, the following setup is quite nice for fighting GWFs:
- Class skills: Skillful Infiltrator, Tactics
Skillful Infiltrator is all-around buff, I’m playing more aggressively now and Tactics slotted means more SE in a match -> more kills. I don’t feel like need of Tenacious concealment nor faster running. It may change with my ELO rising and tougher guys thrown at me.
- At-wills: Gloaming Cut, Duelist’s Flurry
Yeah, unslotted Cloud of Steel, since I feel that damage is not so good after the patch. And I can always use LB to throw someone from the horse :>
- Encounters: Impossible to Catch, Shadow Strike, Lashing Blade
I’m less in stealth – Bait and Switch unslotted, but due to slower fights I have more time to plan and synchronize usage of ITC and SS, LB gives me more damage.
- Dailies: Shocking Execution, Whirlwind of Blades
SE is obvious choice. I slotted Whirlwind of Blades, it’s very situational, but there are more occasions to use it. More often there is a lot of people fighting at the central node so WoB from stealth has sense. Yesterday I used it with a perfect timing - 3v4 fight, 2 CWs land CC on my party, HR + GWF are nuking them, both parties are severely damaged. I run in stealth to the middle of the fight, WoB – 6-8K crits on each opponent, TRIPLE KILL! Both CW and HR are dead, GWF is “WTF just happened” slaughtered by un-CCed people from my team. Man, that was pure awesome. I really have fun from PVP now
I approach GWF is stealth, try to soften him up with Gloaming Cut as much as possible, judge his behavior in this time, if I see he has a problem with me stealthy attacks, that’s my prey. As the stealth is about to end -> ITC -> use lantern for damage/debuff if not on cooldow, otherwise lashing blade -> jump on him with DF -> dodge -> shadow strike -> if his health is low enough to land shocking execution -> land it, otherwise repeat the rotation.
I’m quite competitive against GWFs with this approach. I can win full 1v1 that way, both parties starting at full health. Even if I’m killed, it’s not like previous when I could not scratch the GWF, he will be bleeding after the fight. And seeing GWF back running away from me – priceless
And above is with a pair of T2 daggers, no weapon enchants, only two first boons from both campaigns, no armor penetration boon yet, so it may be only better with time
EDIT: One thing sucks: decreased Glory rewards. Matches are longer so, yeah. Glory gain is slow even if you are on winning side. Loosting side outside PvP hour may result in 40 minutes match, 132 glory. That's really bad, hope that they will do something about it.
but the Seals of Triumph thing stinks
Only being able to get one/day is going to mean I sit on 50,000 glory while waiting for them to accumulate
GG PvP is impossible to get into if you are not in a Luskan guild
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
So yeah, kweassa is totally right. Well played TR is now a killing machine
also btw LOL at 4 GWF's and 4 TR's in one fight, i've never had so many TR's in a match. i nearly always get CW and GWF spam now, just like before the patch... and often which team has these 2 classes is the main decider :> (as long as they're geared and not terrible)
Ok stop im italian and this t9 does not help
There were 5 people on the other team who could have used teamwork to make the ga e more difficult
But they didn't
So he earned what he posted.
The fact that he almost broke 5000 points shows he was also capping nodes And/or defending them
A kill is only 50 points. Do the math, he was very productive in that win.
If that resulted from him being in a match that the game setup unfairly
That just means the latest patch failed
And
He did not quit
Leaving dead question marks everywhere