This thread has taken a bizarre turn. ayroux is generally one of the better posters around. He tends to be well reflected, with solidly thought-out, constructive ideas.
The only people who are disagreeing with him have constantly shown that they rely on having an easymode class to do well in this game and have vehemently opposed any suggested balance changes thus should be ignored.
FYI ayroux isnt my first account. I had an old account (forget the name) that I played before that, wanted to reroll a GF and instead oof deleting the character I thought it better to make a new account. Also, I have played a TON of PVE especially when I first started. I posted guides on how to play GF/GWF way back in like July-ish etc.
I have extensive PVE experience and PVP experience and I will say and can say that making unstoppable a PERCENTAGE of hp lost actually HELPs PVE GWFs. The only class it hurts a little is Sent GWFs a tad. I have details this out very very well.
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You seem to think im a TR or something that cant beat a GWF and wants it toned down. Its actually the opposite. Im a GWF that beats everyone...
Typically classes/builds are a rock paper scissors game.... The small tweak I suggested in having determination gained based on % of HP isnt a "buff" to TRs as you say. Not even the threat rush CD is a buff to TRs... Its called a balance to the class and in no way is a MAJOR nerf to PVE?
How do I know?
Well Sent GWFs are already ULTRA op in PVE as far as tankiness. I can out DPS TRs, I can keep up with Dest spec GWFs with equal gear and I am literally impossible to kill. So a very small nerf? No big deal.
Ontop of that a 3-4 sec CD on Threat rush? Well what did you do before TR was in the game? Clearly its not a game changer.
For non sents the % thing is a BUFF to them since they will have unstoppable MORE often.
About the TR stealth mechanic, I know they TRIED to do this before. It was a good idea just poor implementation. It took away too much stealth for each at will. Its a very fine line but just because it was tried once and failed doesnt mean its a horrible idea.
Again you take a small suggestion/idea and blow up about CWs having better CC.... As people posted above, this is a PVP forum focused around a PVP stat and in light of that I am suggesting PVP balances that have been thought out for PVE balance as well.
And he just happens to only complain about nerfing GWFs and buffing TRs.
I still am also lost at what I said to "BUFF TRs". The only thing I could pick up from all this is that if you slightly nerf unstoppable for Sents (only) then in comparison all classes get a relative "buff".
If you have any other suggestion on what I proposed id love to see it...
1. I believe the Threatening Rush issue has been addressed on the preview, you cant spam it, now it has a CD after every use, very easy to dodge, it's still good as a gap closer but it wont hit you at all- it was done to counter the animation canceling.
2. Unstoppable is fine, it gives less than 7% temp HP and heals for 2.5% on preview atm, if it is nerfed the class will become an underdog once again. I believe a lot of the people who play TR do not understand that different classes function differently and 1 class cannot beat every single other class in game just by default like rogues did pre mod2. Though I must agree IV Sentinel is currently overpowered in pvp on live the changes I saw on preview toned them down. They are no longer immortal and get barely any healing from their effects, the tenacity gave them slight increase in defences but not as high as "squishy" classes received, prones are shorter, Frontline Surge damage has been decreased, Threatening Rush "fix", crit reduction hit sentinel very hard since tenacity gives a good 15-20% crit chance decrease. Nerf IV sent more and that tree is gone.
I can't hold myself NOW YOU GUYS UNDERSTAND HOW EVERY SINGLE CLASS FELT LIKE WHEN FIGHTING AGAINST ROGUES BEFORE MODULE 2! doesn't feel good when fighting an opponent with an IWIN button, does it?
Seems like you really have it out for TRs and TBH just want your class to be the most OP so you can stomp them over and over....
BUT!
your #1 you can SPAM threat rush, it was NOT fixed.
#2 unstoppable is not fine, eventhough the HP heal was cut in half, so was everyones self heals including regen so dont act liek only GWF gets hurt by this or its a nerf to directly the GWF. GWFs still have <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> DR even out of unstoppable and IN unstoppable now all damage does even less.
You say 1 class cannot bear every single other class in game... Well how do you explain teh GWF then? Please tell me what class can beat it, to quote something you said to me once. "Unless you have your own super secret class that noone knows about..." you remember what Im talking about...
Tenacity still helped out a HUGE amount for added DR, the only reason it helps squishy classes MORE is because they are so dang squishy they already had negative defense almost 100% of the time. Now with tenacity involved it cut damage they take. But its not like it affects them differently than it affects GWF...
All of the "nerfs" you claim, affect ALL types of builds.
Oh your prone time on frontline is down? What about GFs? What about CWs who rely on shard prones? It affects everyone equally. You act like all these changes only affect the GWF class.
Oh and guess what!?! Whats REALLY fun about the shortened duration of all prones and CC is now the small window you had to burn a sent down outside of unstoppable just became even shorter because people cant prone lock/CC you while they try and DPS you.
Seems like a pretty big buff to the class to me....
My main is a CW. Of course I have it for TRs and their ways. Right now when I PvP on my wiz I see a GWF I run to the side and let him faceroll over my teams GWFs and GFs, end up with 0-3 deaths per match tops. Never has it happened like that before module 3. And you know why? because there was not a counter class for TRs. Now we have one, It might not be my wiz but it's at least there and no matter what, I know there isn't a TR who can roflstomp the whole battlefield. GWF is OP on live, and they will tone it down what more you want? EVen though GWF is the fotm op class, no GWF has ever /w me "lololol hahahah i'm op u nub" or started insulting me in the fight when i killed him, GWFs are still in their majority not 13 yo kids like that other fotm class. Yes they roflstomp the field but my most used skill against them is Repel and then run towards another much softer target but do you know what I get in return? I get my teams GWF in vanguard not letting the "roflmao 11k IS/CS/SE I HAZ SKILLZ U NUB" fotm class get behind me or the pesky permstealth sitting at 1/campfire on my teams side can't really do much when the GWF from my team gets on him. And this makes playing pvp so so sooo much more enjoyable for me. And that si why I'm saying leave GWF alone and give GFs and CWs means to fight them and/or resist their prones (I already suggested some shield buffs in another post) so that I can keep enjoying my pvp without the other fotm class(that is 40% of pvp population) ruining it.
Added: the rogue who uses jumping DF bug and tells others to do so(thanks, search button)
Since when is that a bug? A bug is something like Bilethorn's poison procs twice on its at will use: 24 x 16% weapon damage, instead of 12, whilst there is no hard evidence that explains why it does that when all other attacks proc the poison only once.
You can never jump DF a CW with half a brain. Take offense if you like. It's just plain fact.
I think the better way to change unstoppable is the % of damage taken in place of the X amount of damage taken. Why this is good is pretty obvious to me. Right now, let's say you need 5k damage to fill half of your determination bar. This means that a sentinel tank with 40k+ HP can go unstoppable 7 times before getting killed. A destroyer with, let's say, 21k HP, instead, can use unstoppable 3 times (ipotetically). This just makes unstoppable different on different builds with different HPs. While a tab skill should be the same through the class, no matter the build.
Changing it to, let's say, 15% of total health lost, would just make it the same regardless of the amount of HP. Which would be balanced.
I would also focus on regen "mitigation" through healing depression, with a lesser effect on healing powers such as restoring strike.
Quite simply, with cc reduced and healing depression applied, even the few ones who used RS in PvP, will switch to takedown. Else you wouldn't be able to land IBS and would also heal for a cheap amount. Not convenient. Not much since most GWFs already use takedown-FS-IBS. But still, would reduce the choice to 1 rotation only.
A question too: has any GWF tried to combine tenacity+steel grace+elven battle? Sounds like a lot of cc resistance piling up, on top of unstoppable.
A question too: has any GWF tried to combine tenacity+steel grace+elven battle? Sounds like a lot of cc resistance piling up, on top of unstoppable.
Quite honestly, dont need it. When you can pop unstoppable every few seconds and become immune to prone/cc its a waste to slot an enchant that only works on about half the CC effects (meaning no prones) and only gives a resist instead of immune.
HRs can easily stack over 30%. My GWF is near 40% without sacrificing too much really, and if I upgraded to rank 9s, would be over 40% ArPen. A lot of TRs stack ArPen. The stat itself is cheap in terms of returns up to about 3000, after that getting expensive due to diminishing returns. 3000 puts you right at around 26%.
ArPen is still important because it affects that base % that all damage will be modified by. In terms of quickly killing someone who is tough to kill in pvp as a team, stacking debuffs has always been the way to go. 4 10% debuffs = a 46.41 damage buff against that target. But if that targets Dr is 50% and you ignored ArPen because you are stacking debuffs, that person will take 50% of the total damage vs someone vs 0% still.
Debuffs do not technically counter tenacity in the sense that you would still be doing 20-22% less damage than you would have before stacking debuffs on live. It may mean more people start to stack them instead of relying on only self buffs/debuffs to kill someone.
LOL tr's used to stack ArPEN, but then they took away our armor pen stat allocation on pvp gear... So now we can't get a good amount without getting 2 shotted from lack of survivability
As said beeing multiplicative there's no difference if they are counted before or after the reduction by the tenacy.
The good aspect of a mitigation debuff it's that is more versatile than the arp itself.
Against a player that has 25% dmg reduction you won't need more than 25% arp, while you can stack endlessly mitigation debuffs as they are not related to the target defense and, AFAIK, the only ones that got consistently way more than 25-30% dmg reduction are GFW and GF which probably represent the 20% or less of the PvP population.
BTW as I suppose has been said, the mitigation debuff are "the only way" to counter the tenacy DMG resistance while the ArP does not affect the Tenacy DMG resitence.
HRs Can push to around 55% DR without Boars or Oak Skin. Thats if no one is with 15 feet.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Tenacity did not solved nothing max hp need nerf atm it gives 100 more to defnisve builds then power to ofensive so no wonder how hp stacking wins in pvp
Thank you for destroying DC.
Support DC is hopeless, vs every other class DC loss. I tried 7 different builds. All are suitable only for trash. The funny thing is that Regeneration heals more than my own skills, which are designed to heal(!).
I have yet to check full dps build which seems to be the most reasonable of the current corrupt system.
Not really destroyed, i managed to survive and heal very well when i pvp in preview. This is because good pug teammates control all range classes for me so i can get rid healing depression debuff as soon as possible. Then after i did my capping i rush to higher platform where gwfs and gfs cannot do anything abt me, then i play like a healbot. But who knows if my team at those particular games are BIS team while opposite is trash-geared? How if they insist to kill me first? And out of 10 matches the probability of getting pug stomp is very high, the only impact to DC is there are less healing and survivability when we go sent, rendering astral shield useless except for its mitigation, sunburst unneeded due to high tenacity/control resist and a 300 hp per tick HW which lose to regen.
1) Control Wizards are useless (I think pewpewpew saw this as well)
- Need either a control bonus or a -control resist stat that helps control powers NOT be resisted. Either that or CC resist removed from Tenacity. CC is a control wizards bread and butter, without it being reliable they are worthless....
- I think "Blink" needs either a faster animation or a longer range. Should be instant and shouldnt have a slight animation delay upon arriving at the location -> Should be spammable to create a massive distance in short time.
2) Healing Depression is too much
- Needs to be dropped back to about ~30% from 50% otherwise healing classes have no role in PVP. 30% is roughly the DR boost classes gained from tenacity being added.
3) Life "leech" stat got nerfed too hard
- Things that steal life based upon damage got a double nerf because of higher DR AND healing depression
4) DC righteousness debuff
- Affects things like artifact heals, this should not happen.
5) Itemization on the PVP gear sucks!
- DC gear with lifesteal? GWF T2.5 gear is worthless because the 2pc is crit instead of HP - Should make ALL the PVP armor sets crit instead to avoid GWFs having a massive HP advantage (this will help balance the class ALOT -3600 maximum possible HP). GF T2.5 gear is worthless - Tactician Gear should have deflect NOT Recovery(like the T2 version) The Preserver should have HP, Conqueror should have either regen or HP at the loss of Recovery.
- I think more sets should have HP, not just the one... Same with Regen (like my post says above)
- Should be able to mix and match sets, and have it count towards the set bonuses for each tier. Could have 2 of 1 profound set and 1 of each of the other two and it should count as a 4 piece. If you went 2pc T2 and 2pc T2.5 it would NOT count. An example is 2 piece Profound Sentinel/2 piece profound destroyer would give a 4 piece set bonus not two 2pc bonuses. This would open alot more gear choice for players.
- Weapons should be included BACK into the set bonuses. Right now there is no point in having the weapons. This would open alot more gear choice for players.
- The rings/neck/belts are too weak. They need to be reverted back to how they were as reduced versions of the existing grand/ancients pieces with tenacity. Example is the Profound Necklace of Blessing should be: +140 power/crit/arp and +90 Tenacity. Each piece should be two "tiers" lower in stats as the PVE versions, but have tenacity for each tier.
6) elo rating should be visible!!!
- People strive for the highest ratings possible.
7) Premades should NOT be placed into the regular Que system.
- Should be placed in their own que pool of other premades that will only match you up with another 5 player group. This not only helps premades play other premades but helps avoid the PUG stomp that happens all the time. Elo wont fix premade versus PUG which is a MAJOR advantage for the premade.
- If you que with 4 or less - Regular "open" que system. If you que with 5 players your put into your own Que system that will ONLY match you with another premade.
What if premades were given an artificial rating boost for that match based on how many people are in the premade? That way high rated players that want to solo qeue would only see premades of players of less gear/skill making it a more even match. High gear/skill on one side, communication/teamplay advantage on the other. It would also make it more likely high level premades would always face each other.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
HRs Can push to around 55% DR without Boars or Oak Skin. Thats if no one is with 15 feet.
And this just proves you don't have any idea of what's the DMG reduction affected by the Arp.
Arp is effective ONLY versus DMG reduction given from DEFENSE & AC, nothing else is affected by Arp and in no way you can get more than 40% DMG RDC by AC & Defense (even with Oak Skin if you know what are DR)
And this just proves you don't have any idea of what's the DMG reduction affected by the Arp.
Arp is effective ONLY versus DMG reduction given from DEFENSE & AC, nothing else is affected by Arp and in no way you can get more than 40% DMG RDC by AC & Defense (even with Oak Skin if you know what are DR)
Now stay on topic.
Ty.
Lone Wolf class feature is affected by damage reduction. Tested it. With the new nature pvp gear, it is theoretically to get over 40% with AC+ Defense alone. Probably not necessarily a good idea, but possible. 2500 defense should get you yo 35% base DR though. The buffs are flat DR boosts, but aren't affected by ArPen. But 60% DR that is affected by ArPen is easily obtainable from range with 0 buffs.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I'm a BiS GWF and there is nothing stopping me now from killing a CW, their freeze duration is less than a 1 sec and there is no problem resisting their CC without even using my unstoppable.
They can't even chain their combos anymore because every time they try to "entangle" i just snap out of it very quickly and charge into them, not to mention how repel is now completely useless. I think tenacity is good tanking wise, but the CC resist part was way too far.
I suggest, as stox said, adding a "Control resistance ignored" stat on the CW gear.
I agree on everything especially the "control resistance ignored" stat.
Something needs to be done, enemies get out of entangling force or freeze in a blink of an eye and repel is just resisted 2 times out of 3 if not more.
Yesterday i played pvp with the devs and i'm sure they noticed this in first person. I even talked to Panderus about it, if a "control" wizard isn't able to control, the whole class lose it's own purpose in pvp.
Sorry, I have to call BS on this comment, even as OP as GWF is on live, my guild has proven running our rainbow team against sometimes 3 gwf vs our one gwf that gwf isnt that badly OP.
But with that being said , what the devs did in adventure hour on valentines day REALLLY scared me, they slapped on BiS gear and THOUGHT they were playing at top level, and were calling out "strategies" that made 0 sense and made my guild members laugh at how much they didnt understand the pvp system. This scares me because healing depression and tenacity are going to tear this game apart if they dont seriously rework the system.
SERIOUSLY, all they did was nerf the two hardest classes in the game to play(DC-CW), and gave TR and GWF a lopsided , almost annoyingly pointless damage nerf on parts of the class that WERENT the issue, instead of addressing the real problems with each individul class.
Ive wrote one to many posts criticizing the skill level that is determining the balance in this game, and what i thought of the dev's in game skill level, as well as other members in that match which might as well had been pugs (aside from iyon) my critiques on the skill level of that match cant be fit onto a forum page because there are so many noobish things that occured , I'd basically need a forum page dedicated to my ranting.
Solution:
Devs, 5v5 my guild, 5v5 synergy, 5v5 Dulce, or 5v5 a guild that dosent say "we have our home cap, we dont have to worry about the enemies cap atm" - sominator. You will be rudely awaken as to what real pvp is about in this game. And unless you guys feel like dedicating a month of your time to get good at pvp in your own game, you should ask for a video of top tier pvp with an ACT log to help make your analysis' and balance pvp.
Go ahead, call me out on this.
Give me ELO, Give me new game types and maps, or give me a new game
Dont break the combat system our pvp community already loves
Sorry, I have to call BS on this comment, even as OP as GWF is on live, my guild has proven running our rainbow team against sometimes 3 gwf vs our one gwf that gwf isnt that badly OP.
Your guild is an exception.
You're always in vent and have the luxury to call prones&targets and coordinate all times. Also you can stall or even kill GWF sometimes on your TR for example, and your DC can stall one as well.
Exceptions... again.
You judge by your own measure, but I'll judge with mine, which encompasses more than just the highest end.
I recommend once that you go on one CW on preview (pretty sure some CW guildie can lend you their account), and go against GWF. Try a team such as DC/CW/CW/TR/HR for example, and go against GWF/GWF/TR/CW/CW.
Please return and tell me how the experiment ended, thanks.
Because we gotta face the realities of random queues here, instead of living in the arranged climate of PMvsPM where you can set up encounters and rotate as needed.
You're always in vent and have the luxury to call prones&targets and coordinate all times. Also you can stall or even kill GWF sometimes on your TR for example, and your DC can stall one as well.
Exceptions... again.
You judge by your own measure, but I'll judge with mine, which encompasses more than just the highest end.
I recommend once that you go on one CW on preview (pretty sure some CW guildie can lend you their account), and go against GWF. Try a team such as DC/CW/CW/TR/HR for example, and go against GWF/GWF/TR/CW/CW.
Please return and tell me how the experiment ended, thanks.
Because we gotta face the realities of random queues here, instead of living in the arranged climate of PMvsPM where you can set up encounters and rotate as needed.
I own a CW pvp spec, ty, and Ive stated in many posts how hard it is to play cw and how it might be the hardest class in game to play, and I stated last post how they nerfed further. But, I made a point of stating they nerfed gwf in the wrong way
Atm my guilds CWs are able to 1 rotation a senti IF they can get their rotation in. However, due to threatening rush, cws cant escape any longer. Also, they nerfed fls which hurts two classes and WASNT THE ISSUE, the issue with gwf damage is that it stems from the marking feat (gives 15% more damage) and the ability to stack a lot of crit
Its a no brainer what the outcome is there...
And whats the point of bringing a DC? Cryptic affectively nerfed DC into oblivion, hell, sunburst dosent even work anymore!!! Even if they could heal themselves , they couldnt hold a point
Whats the point of bringing a cw? Cryptic deemed Cws arent allowed to control anymore , shard on tab is useless now and im beyond pist about these changes, I hope my anger is apperent through my posts
Like seriously!?!? Who asked for this new CC resist its so stupid
And because i havent complained enough about this
Why are they double dipping on damage nerfs? Adding tenacity and then further nerfing abilities? Its beyond pointless to use impact shot now
On live? Ill glady take on your expirement
And the fact that my guild is considered an exception is rather dull, if we can do it, that means its possible. And trust me its not that hard to do
I explained also these points in my prior posts and more , so please read more carefully because now these points are going to be buried in forum pages
Man now your really just buring all the points ive made with posts and points that ive already stated
You called BS on one of my posts. I replied. You continued. You made some points, good for you.
You think that only you can have opinions, or what?
Boring or no, this is a forum, and if you cannot understand random people reply to you, in a manner that might be boring or not to you, what can I say?
It's like "OMG, I discovered all these things about CW being weak, cause I'm the ONLY guy playing a CW, rest are just BS, they cannot come to same conclusions".
If you think your posts are less boring and special, you're plain wrong.
I don't even understand why are we having the pointless conversation. You offered your feedback - cool. I offered mine. Did I attack yours? You attacked mine, just because your opinion is different. If you wanna discuss the GWF post I made and argue against me (which I would find boring), please do, but it's hardly the point of this topic.
I just wanted to throw out my two copper pieces that I think the upcoming adding of the PVP stat "tenacity" is kind of pointless, and does nothing to address the current issues that exist within PVP. All it does right now is create a divide between PVP gear and non-PVP gear, pretty much requiring anyone who does PVP seriously at the end to have a set of "Tenacity" gear available to even compete seriously. This means that instead of being able to quickly and easily get into PVP when your in the mood, you've pretty much got to keep a set of PVP gear in the bank or in inventory and switch armor before you PVP. Given that space is at a premium, this represents something of a problem unless of course the idea is simply to try and get people to buy more space one way or another.
I myself pointed out that the game needed stats like "Hardness" and "Critigation" before within PVP but mainly in order to make defense oriented characters more viable. Ideally such stats should be built into all armor of certain classes, or gained as a class ability as part of game balance. The problem as I see things right now being that too much focus is placed on offense, if your PVPing as a character like a guardian fighter that is focused on defense and does comparatively little damage compared to other characters, it's kind of game breaking when a DPS character like a great weapon fighter or a trickster rogue can just pretty much turn your armor into tissue paper by having their character build properly. Very high levels of crit and armor penetration are fine against PVE mobs, and even expected, but in PVP it creates an entirely different set of problems. As a general rule all things being 'balanced' if you your attacks are doing the basic damage of a pillow in a sorority pillow fight, nobody else should be able to hit you much harder than that since you are after all stacking defense, and it should be every bit as useful and powerful as offensive stats. What's more defensive moves (again using the GF as an example) are largely pointless, as a character like a trickster rogue can pretty much run right up to your face and beat down your guard like nothing, massively out damaging your ability to "counter poke" with a guard raised, when conceptually that should probably be suicide, requiring the rogue to you know... play like a rogue, and have to find ways to get around the guard (which
shouldn't be as easy as it is now either).
Now, I know a lot of people won't agree with the specifics here (and understand also I'm being very general) but the point here is that a basic stat like "tenacity" seems based around raising all stats in PVP. This means that when say a defensive player and an offensive player meet in battle, it's still not equal statistically, after all if both are in say Tier 2 PVP sets packing equal tenacity you then run into a situation where it's the same exact problem, as crit and armor penetration are going to rip through the defensive stats.
One of the selling points of Neverwinter PVP was to make this fairly approachable if I remember when the game launched, and really creating these kinds of "gear divides" is just going to make PVP an increasingly specialty sub-game. If things go this way, it should probably be removed from daily AD quest validity at the very least because it's no longer something your typical player is going to be able to just put into their play schedule. At the very least it becomes more of a chore of the whole "gee, I need to go get my Tenacity suit on just to run my 4 PVP rounds". Ultimatly a problem just as big as Cryptic STILL not having segregated the PVP queues for solo players/PUGs and pre-made groups which should have happened on day #1 which I believe has itself done a lot to prevent PVP from being as popular as Neverwinter seemed to be striving for by opening it up to nearly everyone.
This is also why I make the point about "pure defense" in PVP, sure it's possible to build say a Guardian Fighter *just* for PVP, but then it won't be a dedicated tank (though it might be passable). If you don't want to basically turn your tank into some kind of a hybrid where things are a little more difficult in your intended role, you shouldn't be penalized in PVP.
Towards that end I've been of the opinion that probably the fastest way to balance things in the short term is to give the Guardian Fighter very specifically a huge passive innate ability that reduces the effectiveness of armor penetration and critical strikes against him all the time in PVP. Something that doesn't apply to other characters that aren't full time tanks (for example the GWF can sort of tank, but that's not his thing, also having a lot of offense, so it wouldn't really apply, a similar ability might be added to other defense specialized characters in the future). What's more I also think the way "guard" works in PVP needs to be adjusted, taking far less damage from player attacks than it does from monster attacks, and almost no damage at all from ranged attacks (sort of stalemating ranged characters that can easily run away even from charge based moves). In PVE the guard is almost perfect, as when tanking or fighting monsters you need to balance your guarding with avoiding certain attacks, or even periodically taking a few on the chin (with your super heavy armor) while your guard meter comes back. In PVP it's kind of ridiculous when some ranger or rogue can just tear the thing down with rapid attacks, especially the former because arrows are something you'd expect a big huge shield to be able to stop easily (that is kind of the point), especially when your basically considering that your high end GF is supposed to be able to stand toe to toe with a Dragon (like the one at the end of Malabog's) while sidestepping it's breath weapon is advised, you can still stop it (for about half your guard meter if your at full) while another player that gets hit full force is usually a toasty pile on the ground. Great ability PVE for a tank, works as intended, but when you consider some dude plinking away with a bow or a pair of daggers is overcoming that like it's virtually a joke, you need to start seriously re-consider how the core game concepts are working together. As that is the whole mechanic a GF is based around, and for which he gives up a lot of the flashy offensive coolness other characters have, it should be just as incredible in PVP as in PVE.
Just my thoughts on the subject. The central point here is that I do not think Tenacity will achieve anything in terms of PVP other than to create an even larger divide between the PVE and PVP players, and create a headache for those that want to do both, while in turn not really changing the kinds of balance problems people like me have noticed because all it's doing is making the numbers bigger and math a little more complicated without changing the way things work.
As a basic quick fix I'd say that your typical GF should have something like 2400 hardness and critigation at 60 as an innate ability. This reducing the effective score of an attacker, with with the extra points becoming an effective boost to the GF's deflect and defense. That's a huge number, and intentionally, but it's considering the actual stats of high level players and potential for later game growth when we eventually see new ways to boost offensive stats, tier 3 armor, etc... which will probably come before any fundamental character redesigns. I'd also reduce the damage done to guard by 80% for melee, and 99% for ranged, making it impractical to attack from that direction, and encouraging characters based around positioning to have to seek position as opposed to simply being able to plink away and have to manage their offensive dodges/retreats for positioning rather than simply being able to use it to run away from charge moves. Basically if you get stuck against a GF face to face you should (eventually) lose but it should take a while. Rogues and GWFs should be made to rely on using their mobility to try and get behind the guy (especially considering slow movement) and ranged should especially be encouraged to do that.
Comments
The only people who are disagreeing with him have constantly shown that they rely on having an easymode class to do well in this game and have vehemently opposed any suggested balance changes thus should be ignored.
FYI ayroux isnt my first account. I had an old account (forget the name) that I played before that, wanted to reroll a GF and instead oof deleting the character I thought it better to make a new account. Also, I have played a TON of PVE especially when I first started. I posted guides on how to play GF/GWF way back in like July-ish etc.
I have extensive PVE experience and PVP experience and I will say and can say that making unstoppable a PERCENTAGE of hp lost actually HELPs PVE GWFs. The only class it hurts a little is Sent GWFs a tad. I have details this out very very well.
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You seem to think im a TR or something that cant beat a GWF and wants it toned down. Its actually the opposite. Im a GWF that beats everyone...
Typically classes/builds are a rock paper scissors game.... The small tweak I suggested in having determination gained based on % of HP isnt a "buff" to TRs as you say. Not even the threat rush CD is a buff to TRs... Its called a balance to the class and in no way is a MAJOR nerf to PVE?
How do I know?
Well Sent GWFs are already ULTRA op in PVE as far as tankiness. I can out DPS TRs, I can keep up with Dest spec GWFs with equal gear and I am literally impossible to kill. So a very small nerf? No big deal.
Ontop of that a 3-4 sec CD on Threat rush? Well what did you do before TR was in the game? Clearly its not a game changer.
For non sents the % thing is a BUFF to them since they will have unstoppable MORE often.
About the TR stealth mechanic, I know they TRIED to do this before. It was a good idea just poor implementation. It took away too much stealth for each at will. Its a very fine line but just because it was tried once and failed doesnt mean its a horrible idea.
Again you take a small suggestion/idea and blow up about CWs having better CC.... As people posted above, this is a PVP forum focused around a PVP stat and in light of that I am suggesting PVP balances that have been thought out for PVE balance as well.
I still am also lost at what I said to "BUFF TRs". The only thing I could pick up from all this is that if you slightly nerf unstoppable for Sents (only) then in comparison all classes get a relative "buff".
If you have any other suggestion on what I proposed id love to see it...
Seems like you really have it out for TRs and TBH just want your class to be the most OP so you can stomp them over and over....
BUT!
your #1 you can SPAM threat rush, it was NOT fixed.
#2 unstoppable is not fine, eventhough the HP heal was cut in half, so was everyones self heals including regen so dont act liek only GWF gets hurt by this or its a nerf to directly the GWF. GWFs still have <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> DR even out of unstoppable and IN unstoppable now all damage does even less.
You say 1 class cannot bear every single other class in game... Well how do you explain teh GWF then? Please tell me what class can beat it, to quote something you said to me once. "Unless you have your own super secret class that noone knows about..." you remember what Im talking about...
Tenacity still helped out a HUGE amount for added DR, the only reason it helps squishy classes MORE is because they are so dang squishy they already had negative defense almost 100% of the time. Now with tenacity involved it cut damage they take. But its not like it affects them differently than it affects GWF...
All of the "nerfs" you claim, affect ALL types of builds.
Oh your prone time on frontline is down? What about GFs? What about CWs who rely on shard prones? It affects everyone equally. You act like all these changes only affect the GWF class.
Oh and guess what!?! Whats REALLY fun about the shortened duration of all prones and CC is now the small window you had to burn a sent down outside of unstoppable just became even shorter because people cant prone lock/CC you while they try and DPS you.
Seems like a pretty big buff to the class to me....
said the rogue...
Added: the rogue who uses jumping DF bug and tells others to do so(thanks, search button)
You mean my TR who I haven't played since mid-December? Or the other one that hasn't been played in over 5 months?
Since when is that a bug? A bug is something like Bilethorn's poison procs twice on its at will use: 24 x 16% weapon damage, instead of 12, whilst there is no hard evidence that explains why it does that when all other attacks proc the poison only once.
You can never jump DF a CW with half a brain. Take offense if you like. It's just plain fact.
Changing it to, let's say, 15% of total health lost, would just make it the same regardless of the amount of HP. Which would be balanced.
I would also focus on regen "mitigation" through healing depression, with a lesser effect on healing powers such as restoring strike.
Quite simply, with cc reduced and healing depression applied, even the few ones who used RS in PvP, will switch to takedown. Else you wouldn't be able to land IBS and would also heal for a cheap amount. Not convenient. Not much since most GWFs already use takedown-FS-IBS. But still, would reduce the choice to 1 rotation only.
A question too: has any GWF tried to combine tenacity+steel grace+elven battle? Sounds like a lot of cc resistance piling up, on top of unstoppable.
Quite honestly, dont need it. When you can pop unstoppable every few seconds and become immune to prone/cc its a waste to slot an enchant that only works on about half the CC effects (meaning no prones) and only gives a resist instead of immune.
LOL tr's used to stack ArPEN, but then they took away our armor pen stat allocation on pvp gear... So now we can't get a good amount without getting 2 shotted from lack of survivability
Who has more/better GWFs wins.
So no worries, nothing changed.
HRs Can push to around 55% DR without Boars or Oak Skin. Thats if no one is with 15 feet.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
I was going to laugh, then I realized how true it was, so instead I made a GWF.
Yeah seems like the smart choice. Probably level one of each class, move enchants around as they become the FOTM OP class, have fun.
Certainly better than continue to play lame class.
More than that, sir.
Not really destroyed, i managed to survive and heal very well when i pvp in preview. This is because good pug teammates control all range classes for me so i can get rid healing depression debuff as soon as possible. Then after i did my capping i rush to higher platform where gwfs and gfs cannot do anything abt me, then i play like a healbot. But who knows if my team at those particular games are BIS team while opposite is trash-geared? How if they insist to kill me first? And out of 10 matches the probability of getting pug stomp is very high, the only impact to DC is there are less healing and survivability when we go sent, rendering astral shield useless except for its mitigation, sunburst unneeded due to high tenacity/control resist and a 300 hp per tick HW which lose to regen.
1) Control Wizards are useless (I think pewpewpew saw this as well)
- Need either a control bonus or a -control resist stat that helps control powers NOT be resisted. Either that or CC resist removed from Tenacity. CC is a control wizards bread and butter, without it being reliable they are worthless....
- I think "Blink" needs either a faster animation or a longer range. Should be instant and shouldnt have a slight animation delay upon arriving at the location -> Should be spammable to create a massive distance in short time.
2) Healing Depression is too much
- Needs to be dropped back to about ~30% from 50% otherwise healing classes have no role in PVP. 30% is roughly the DR boost classes gained from tenacity being added.
3) Life "leech" stat got nerfed too hard
- Things that steal life based upon damage got a double nerf because of higher DR AND healing depression
4) DC righteousness debuff
- Affects things like artifact heals, this should not happen.
5) Itemization on the PVP gear sucks!
- DC gear with lifesteal? GWF T2.5 gear is worthless because the 2pc is crit instead of HP - Should make ALL the PVP armor sets crit instead to avoid GWFs having a massive HP advantage (this will help balance the class ALOT -3600 maximum possible HP). GF T2.5 gear is worthless - Tactician Gear should have deflect NOT Recovery(like the T2 version) The Preserver should have HP, Conqueror should have either regen or HP at the loss of Recovery.
- I think more sets should have HP, not just the one... Same with Regen (like my post says above)
- Should be able to mix and match sets, and have it count towards the set bonuses for each tier. Could have 2 of 1 profound set and 1 of each of the other two and it should count as a 4 piece. If you went 2pc T2 and 2pc T2.5 it would NOT count. An example is 2 piece Profound Sentinel/2 piece profound destroyer would give a 4 piece set bonus not two 2pc bonuses. This would open alot more gear choice for players.
- Weapons should be included BACK into the set bonuses. Right now there is no point in having the weapons. This would open alot more gear choice for players.
- The rings/neck/belts are too weak. They need to be reverted back to how they were as reduced versions of the existing grand/ancients pieces with tenacity. Example is the Profound Necklace of Blessing should be: +140 power/crit/arp and +90 Tenacity. Each piece should be two "tiers" lower in stats as the PVE versions, but have tenacity for each tier.
6) elo rating should be visible!!!
- People strive for the highest ratings possible.
7) Premades should NOT be placed into the regular Que system.
- Should be placed in their own que pool of other premades that will only match you up with another 5 player group. This not only helps premades play other premades but helps avoid the PUG stomp that happens all the time. Elo wont fix premade versus PUG which is a MAJOR advantage for the premade.
- If you que with 4 or less - Regular "open" que system. If you que with 5 players your put into your own Que system that will ONLY match you with another premade.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Arp is effective ONLY versus DMG reduction given from DEFENSE & AC, nothing else is affected by Arp and in no way you can get more than 40% DMG RDC by AC & Defense (even with Oak Skin if you know what are DR)
Now stay on topic.
Ty.
Lone Wolf class feature is affected by damage reduction. Tested it. With the new nature pvp gear, it is theoretically to get over 40% with AC+ Defense alone. Probably not necessarily a good idea, but possible. 2500 defense should get you yo 35% base DR though. The buffs are flat DR boosts, but aren't affected by ArPen. But 60% DR that is affected by ArPen is easily obtainable from range with 0 buffs.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I agree on everything especially the "control resistance ignored" stat.
Something needs to be done, enemies get out of entangling force or freeze in a blink of an eye and repel is just resisted 2 times out of 3 if not more.
Yesterday i played pvp with the devs and i'm sure they noticed this in first person. I even talked to Panderus about it, if a "control" wizard isn't able to control, the whole class lose it's own purpose in pvp.
Sorry, I have to call BS on this comment, even as OP as GWF is on live, my guild has proven running our rainbow team against sometimes 3 gwf vs our one gwf that gwf isnt that badly OP.
But with that being said , what the devs did in adventure hour on valentines day REALLLY scared me, they slapped on BiS gear and THOUGHT they were playing at top level, and were calling out "strategies" that made 0 sense and made my guild members laugh at how much they didnt understand the pvp system. This scares me because healing depression and tenacity are going to tear this game apart if they dont seriously rework the system.
SERIOUSLY, all they did was nerf the two hardest classes in the game to play(DC-CW), and gave TR and GWF a lopsided , almost annoyingly pointless damage nerf on parts of the class that WERENT the issue, instead of addressing the real problems with each individul class.
Ive wrote one to many posts criticizing the skill level that is determining the balance in this game, and what i thought of the dev's in game skill level, as well as other members in that match which might as well had been pugs (aside from iyon) my critiques on the skill level of that match cant be fit onto a forum page because there are so many noobish things that occured , I'd basically need a forum page dedicated to my ranting.
Solution:
Devs, 5v5 my guild, 5v5 synergy, 5v5 Dulce, or 5v5 a guild that dosent say "we have our home cap, we dont have to worry about the enemies cap atm" - sominator. You will be rudely awaken as to what real pvp is about in this game. And unless you guys feel like dedicating a month of your time to get good at pvp in your own game, you should ask for a video of top tier pvp with an ACT log to help make your analysis' and balance pvp.
Go ahead, call me out on this.
Give me ELO, Give me new game types and maps, or give me a new game
Dont break the combat system our pvp community already loves
Your guild is an exception.
You're always in vent and have the luxury to call prones&targets and coordinate all times. Also you can stall or even kill GWF sometimes on your TR for example, and your DC can stall one as well.
Exceptions... again.
You judge by your own measure, but I'll judge with mine, which encompasses more than just the highest end.
I recommend once that you go on one CW on preview (pretty sure some CW guildie can lend you their account), and go against GWF. Try a team such as DC/CW/CW/TR/HR for example, and go against GWF/GWF/TR/CW/CW.
Please return and tell me how the experiment ended, thanks.
Because we gotta face the realities of random queues here, instead of living in the arranged climate of PMvsPM where you can set up encounters and rotate as needed.
I own a CW pvp spec, ty, and Ive stated in many posts how hard it is to play cw and how it might be the hardest class in game to play, and I stated last post how they nerfed further. But, I made a point of stating they nerfed gwf in the wrong way
Atm my guilds CWs are able to 1 rotation a senti IF they can get their rotation in. However, due to threatening rush, cws cant escape any longer. Also, they nerfed fls which hurts two classes and WASNT THE ISSUE, the issue with gwf damage is that it stems from the marking feat (gives 15% more damage) and the ability to stack a lot of crit
Its a no brainer what the outcome is there...
And whats the point of bringing a DC? Cryptic affectively nerfed DC into oblivion, hell, sunburst dosent even work anymore!!! Even if they could heal themselves , they couldnt hold a point
Whats the point of bringing a cw? Cryptic deemed Cws arent allowed to control anymore , shard on tab is useless now and im beyond pist about these changes, I hope my anger is apperent through my posts
Like seriously!?!? Who asked for this new CC resist its so stupid
And because i havent complained enough about this
Why are they double dipping on damage nerfs? Adding tenacity and then further nerfing abilities? Its beyond pointless to use impact shot now
On live? Ill glady take on your expirement
And the fact that my guild is considered an exception is rather dull, if we can do it, that means its possible. And trust me its not that hard to do
I explained also these points in my prior posts and more , so please read more carefully because now these points are going to be buried in forum pages
But on Preview, when I play my CW (tried at least 15-20 gear/spec/rotation combinations etc.), it feels like my live CW is a god.
This is how bad it is.
Man now your really just buring all the points ive made with posts and points that ive already stated
You think that only you can have opinions, or what?
Boring or no, this is a forum, and if you cannot understand random people reply to you, in a manner that might be boring or not to you, what can I say?
It's like "OMG, I discovered all these things about CW being weak, cause I'm the ONLY guy playing a CW, rest are just BS, they cannot come to same conclusions".
If you think your posts are less boring and special, you're plain wrong.
I don't even understand why are we having the pointless conversation. You offered your feedback - cool. I offered mine. Did I attack yours? You attacked mine, just because your opinion is different. If you wanna discuss the GWF post I made and argue against me (which I would find boring), please do, but it's hardly the point of this topic.
I myself pointed out that the game needed stats like "Hardness" and "Critigation" before within PVP but mainly in order to make defense oriented characters more viable. Ideally such stats should be built into all armor of certain classes, or gained as a class ability as part of game balance. The problem as I see things right now being that too much focus is placed on offense, if your PVPing as a character like a guardian fighter that is focused on defense and does comparatively little damage compared to other characters, it's kind of game breaking when a DPS character like a great weapon fighter or a trickster rogue can just pretty much turn your armor into tissue paper by having their character build properly. Very high levels of crit and armor penetration are fine against PVE mobs, and even expected, but in PVP it creates an entirely different set of problems. As a general rule all things being 'balanced' if you your attacks are doing the basic damage of a pillow in a sorority pillow fight, nobody else should be able to hit you much harder than that since you are after all stacking defense, and it should be every bit as useful and powerful as offensive stats. What's more defensive moves (again using the GF as an example) are largely pointless, as a character like a trickster rogue can pretty much run right up to your face and beat down your guard like nothing, massively out damaging your ability to "counter poke" with a guard raised, when conceptually that should probably be suicide, requiring the rogue to you know... play like a rogue, and have to find ways to get around the guard (which
shouldn't be as easy as it is now either).
Now, I know a lot of people won't agree with the specifics here (and understand also I'm being very general) but the point here is that a basic stat like "tenacity" seems based around raising all stats in PVP. This means that when say a defensive player and an offensive player meet in battle, it's still not equal statistically, after all if both are in say Tier 2 PVP sets packing equal tenacity you then run into a situation where it's the same exact problem, as crit and armor penetration are going to rip through the defensive stats.
One of the selling points of Neverwinter PVP was to make this fairly approachable if I remember when the game launched, and really creating these kinds of "gear divides" is just going to make PVP an increasingly specialty sub-game. If things go this way, it should probably be removed from daily AD quest validity at the very least because it's no longer something your typical player is going to be able to just put into their play schedule. At the very least it becomes more of a chore of the whole "gee, I need to go get my Tenacity suit on just to run my 4 PVP rounds". Ultimatly a problem just as big as Cryptic STILL not having segregated the PVP queues for solo players/PUGs and pre-made groups which should have happened on day #1 which I believe has itself done a lot to prevent PVP from being as popular as Neverwinter seemed to be striving for by opening it up to nearly everyone.
This is also why I make the point about "pure defense" in PVP, sure it's possible to build say a Guardian Fighter *just* for PVP, but then it won't be a dedicated tank (though it might be passable). If you don't want to basically turn your tank into some kind of a hybrid where things are a little more difficult in your intended role, you shouldn't be penalized in PVP.
Towards that end I've been of the opinion that probably the fastest way to balance things in the short term is to give the Guardian Fighter very specifically a huge passive innate ability that reduces the effectiveness of armor penetration and critical strikes against him all the time in PVP. Something that doesn't apply to other characters that aren't full time tanks (for example the GWF can sort of tank, but that's not his thing, also having a lot of offense, so it wouldn't really apply, a similar ability might be added to other defense specialized characters in the future). What's more I also think the way "guard" works in PVP needs to be adjusted, taking far less damage from player attacks than it does from monster attacks, and almost no damage at all from ranged attacks (sort of stalemating ranged characters that can easily run away even from charge based moves). In PVE the guard is almost perfect, as when tanking or fighting monsters you need to balance your guarding with avoiding certain attacks, or even periodically taking a few on the chin (with your super heavy armor) while your guard meter comes back. In PVP it's kind of ridiculous when some ranger or rogue can just tear the thing down with rapid attacks, especially the former because arrows are something you'd expect a big huge shield to be able to stop easily (that is kind of the point), especially when your basically considering that your high end GF is supposed to be able to stand toe to toe with a Dragon (like the one at the end of Malabog's) while sidestepping it's breath weapon is advised, you can still stop it (for about half your guard meter if your at full) while another player that gets hit full force is usually a toasty pile on the ground. Great ability PVE for a tank, works as intended, but when you consider some dude plinking away with a bow or a pair of daggers is overcoming that like it's virtually a joke, you need to start seriously re-consider how the core game concepts are working together. As that is the whole mechanic a GF is based around, and for which he gives up a lot of the flashy offensive coolness other characters have, it should be just as incredible in PVP as in PVE.
Just my thoughts on the subject. The central point here is that I do not think Tenacity will achieve anything in terms of PVP other than to create an even larger divide between the PVE and PVP players, and create a headache for those that want to do both, while in turn not really changing the kinds of balance problems people like me have noticed because all it's doing is making the numbers bigger and math a little more complicated without changing the way things work.
As a basic quick fix I'd say that your typical GF should have something like 2400 hardness and critigation at 60 as an innate ability. This reducing the effective score of an attacker, with with the extra points becoming an effective boost to the GF's deflect and defense. That's a huge number, and intentionally, but it's considering the actual stats of high level players and potential for later game growth when we eventually see new ways to boost offensive stats, tier 3 armor, etc... which will probably come before any fundamental character redesigns. I'd also reduce the damage done to guard by 80% for melee, and 99% for ranged, making it impractical to attack from that direction, and encouraging characters based around positioning to have to seek position as opposed to simply being able to plink away and have to manage their offensive dodges/retreats for positioning rather than simply being able to use it to run away from charge moves. Basically if you get stuck against a GF face to face you should (eventually) lose but it should take a while. Rogues and GWFs should be made to rely on using their mobility to try and get behind the guy (especially considering slow movement) and ranged should especially be encouraged to do that.