I think ur wrong here again, hybrid can perfectly compete with ranged in dps if correctly built and played as None of the two trees capstone are that great for pve anyways. Instead of taking less usefull "non-dps" feats u take damage feats spread out in both trees.
there are several possible ways to combine them, but here take a look at how mine is feated:
(for some reason it wont keep that im human and have 3 points in disc of dex )
I can perfectly compete with an equally geared range hr in the paingiver chart with this build. Specially coz of the aspect of the serpent class feature which is pretty nice damage boost reward for stance switching.
I cannot fully disagree or agree with you. I would have to see some charts or head to head to agree with you. When I have been in groups with a second HR, that spends time in melee mode, they are usually at the bottom of the pain giver chart. Now that could be player, could be stats/build, could be gear, or some combo of all.
I also don't like the range/melee combos. It seems like some of the best ranged powers don't have the greatest melee flips.
My mind is open to possibilities and I have been wrong a few times in my life.
Keira Taletreader 60 GF 13.9 GS Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
I know one ranger that I also know is a good player. He's amazing on his other characters and his ranger has the best gear minus orange artifacts but when we go to somewhere like vt or cn he's basically kind of deadweight. His damage is like half other people's, he slows down duneons because of rooting causing shard to miss. So best case scenario for rangers for me is I wish they came on a different character.
Random bads make things much worse with the above mentioned running away from the group and kiting. Right now the only people who want them are the people who have difficulty completing a certain 9200 dungeon fairly. I havent seen that but I understand its tedious beyond mortal comprehension.
Well to be fair I have seen rangers do wellish in t1 dungeons because of the long range, lower mob numbers andwith mobs that have lower health so they die before other people get into range. Unless you have a no brain gwf who sprints ahead of everyone trying to get his damage in first.
The only scenarios making the HR paingiver are a terrible team, or the rangers made shards missing so much and scattered mobs to the point the CWs or GWFs couldn't gather and clear with aoe spells. Rangers are not a full damage class. It's similar to the TR, you'll never see one getting paingiver, so you either do support damage and debuffs or bring something unique to the team (like the TR, speeding up boss fights).
Jeanne -- 21.8k PvP CW
Michael -- 21.1k PvP Sent GWF
morePewPewlessQQ -- 20k Pvp/PvE HR
0
cartivaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
OK, I ran into one of those HR's everyone is complaining about and I now understand. I was playing my new GWF and running regular Idris during DD. It was really irritating. I will be more aware of my play style. The next time I play my HR toon.
Keira Taletreader 60 GF 13.9 GS Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
1. Hr is new, everyone and their uncle built a toon. So there are a lot more Hrs then there are DDs.
2. There is a pre-existing role for the established classes. And there are experienced proven methods that are passed around. Go to The Wilds and you will see even good HRs who cannot agree on these things.
3. Related to 2, For most other classes you can look up a good spec and role and learn from there. Since this is not as available with the ranger there are an awful lot of really bad HRs out there spoiling the reputation. See some of the stories in this thread about aggro management/ roots etc.
Coming back to a theme in this thread the key to being a good Hr is aggro management IMHO. Building a GF and running it for a while will massively improve your value to the team as a HR. Because aggro management is their full-time job. Split can create a lot of DPS but you have to watch the whole engagement and use it properly or you are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> your team. Find a wall or open area behind the mob and position yourself so it fires through to that and not another mob. Do not hang back out of your team's reach. If you get too much aggro it becomes your job to draw it back into the scrum. Marauder is a crutch. When you are new and squishy it saves you from going splat. We are the only class with 6 encounters they should all be adding to your DPS through buffs or direct damage, there is a tab key, use it. Get some defensive stats. You are not a tank, but being able to ignore trash means shooting instead of dodging. In my experience HR is second best in class for several classes. They can single target but not as well as a TR. they can AOE but not as well as a CW. They can in fact run a kite but not as well as a GF. Not even close to a DC but there are a lot of no-DC runs these days (which I think is a game imbalance) but that still leaves them second best (and not as good as just hitting a pot). Thing is maybe 10% of HRs go to the trouble of figuring this out. So we will be the red-headed stepchild for a while. I run with people who know me and trust me to get the job done. Maybe in a month or two there will be a proven role for the class. this is again just my impression over the last couple of months and I could be totally wrong.
Elo) there people
Ive read here tons and tons of bull**** and couple of normal posts regarding HRs.
1st about defense and squishiness:
im HR full archer spec with full dps build, only 2 slots armor/pants on deflection and im not dieing in instances rofl and neither im squishy (yes i am, but i know how to play), think people u have pots, soulforged, artis either bloodcrystal raven or waters, regen and lifesteal, more then enough survivability on your own to even need a DC-heals, so 1st thesis falls to water how paperlike rangers are. Because i killed every boss t2 dk-cn-mc-vt included without DC in team and im also soloing adds in DK without dc if needed if no CW.
2nd about dps:
Yes its true, HRs do so much threat/aggro but then again it all depends from the player how he can handle it.
Personally ive been never outdpsed by TR neither on single target or aoe party on long run especially.
Only ones who do outdps me are destros and we all know why, deep gash hint hint and full aoe cws, but then again it depends about the player its not allways about the class, since ive been outdpsed by 13-14k gwf who knows how to play with proper setup and aggression and knowing instance but then again some destros with 16-17, yes i said destros not IVs, fall behind me by few millions, same goes to cws, its all about knowing the instance and aggression.
I saw Theresa Faintsmile giving his POV, but dude, give us a break ur a bloody monster with all 10s which i will have probably like never ever xD. So godlike people dont be so harsh toward us mortals -_-
3rd about team play and grouping:
Yes people are ignorant or maybe i used harsh term or they just played with bad HRs so they got wrong impression about HRs in total so they dont want/like HRs in their group or think they could do better/faster with different setup, which comes down to playstyle and personal opinion which no one can dispute. 100 people 100 thoughts
And then again a good HR needs a good CW to be good and show himself in proper light, because i would never play fully aggressive and run 1st just for the sake of paingiver/dps to prove something or be that #1, no i always wait singularity and then do rain of arrows on top of it (smartplay) with 70% loaded splits, but here comes the catch, cws begin to be jelly coz HR can outdps them then that way and they just stop doing sing and rather use oppressive force, so ok brah in that case if ur gonna be a **** im gonna be **** also and do splitshoots and scatter mobs, so you see, what goes around comes around, dont blame the HRs blame CWs rather instead. Ohh yeah one more thing, u prolly thinking da dude was abusing stormstep to da max, actually no, neither before while it was working nor now, since i didnt invest single point in it, tho im considering respec it and use it since disruptive is like perma available. All in all imo HRs are really nice addition to any group especially ones that search for high single target burst or constant dps or aoe. Dno if u played with Pazzo-Maroon, GreenArrow-Otpisani (quit tho), and i bet that are alot more really good and more then decent rangers ingame but people just dont give them chance bcoz wrong presumption.
Conclusion is that every class is weak/strong how good player who runs it is, like it or not its true
my over 9000 cents, over and out
In a heavy add situation a HR should put up tons of damage. I will often out dps even CW's with higher gear scores. The problem is, who cares? A CW is still better overall DPS/debuff and brings a LOT more to the table. So even a well played, well gears HR with high damage is still not desirable for a group simply because they don't do anything better than other classes.
In a heavy add situation a HR should put up tons of damage. I will often out dps even CW's with higher gear scores. The problem is, who cares? A CW is still better overall DPS/debuff and brings a LOT more to the table. So even a well played, well gears HR with high damage is still not desirable for a group simply because they don't do anything better than other classes.
Well technically this is the problem faced by every non-DC class and not just HRs: everything that they contribute is vastly over-shadowed by what a CW brings to PvE dungeons. Right now there seems to be 3 major tiers in PvE:
Essential (except in vastly over-geared parties)
CW
Useful
DC
GWF
Effectively Irrelevant
HR
TR
GF
and with the forthcoming nerf of GWFs they may well go back to the bottom tier.
The sad fact is that when your aim is to clear dungeons as efficiently as possible, bringing a HR or TR to a party is sub-par to bringing yet another CW.
I cannot fully disagree or agree with you. I would have to see some charts or head to head to agree with you. When I have been in groups with a second HR, that spends time in melee mode, they are usually at the bottom of the pain giver chart. Now that could be player, could be stats/build, could be gear, or some combo of all.
I also don't like the range/melee combos. It seems like some of the best ranged powers don't have the greatest melee flips.
My mind is open to possibilities and I have been wrong a few times in my life.
A hybrid I have used that works is binding/ rain/ constrict which on stance is oak/ rain/ breeze. Oak is a noce little buff but nothing special. neither rain nor breeze have great damage but they are AOE so when there is a big pile it is worth it to dive in and fire them off. I realize that leaves the ranged mostly single-target but split is going to be your ranged AOE DPS anyway. This build does a burst when you are clearing trash then settles into direct damage for the boss. Not sure that it is optimal, I don't beat out the geared GWFs, But I stay up there and I can't afford a Vorp so that is mostly flat damage.
Funny that you mention that. Yesterday I just vote kicked a HR that had 14k GS and was being out damaged by the cleric at 13k. There are just way to many bad players in this class that gives them a bad name. If a HR does no damage, doesn't heal the party, doesn't tank, and doesn't cc then what the point in keeping them around.
And that comment's kind of pointless cuz I can say the same about the other classes as well. TRs that need to be picked up while doing BARELY more damage than a dc, cw's who don't even know what cc means. Gf's that can't hold single target, let alone mob aggro, dc's who believe an astral shield once every 4 minutes should keep party alive... When this game just went live, didn't people make the same complaint about Tr's as we're now hearing about rangers?!
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Many of you are missing the point. The problem is not the HR. The problem is not the 'bad' players in general. The problem is YOU. Many of you neglect and despise unexperienced ('bad') players without thinking that you were at some point also a 'bad' player. Try to understand that not everybody is the same. That not everybody can be a 'perfect' player. That people need time and advise to become a better player. Instead of kicking a 'bad' (unexperienced) player from a party tell them what they do wrong and what they should do to improve. To be a 'good' experienced player is not only a matter of time but also of the right gear and this takes a lot of time to get. Just be a little patience whith new players and remember that you were a new player too.
@ groark: Imho the problem is not so much the 'unexperienced' players as you call them but the fact that you need experienced players to succeed in some dungeons. That means that 5 lvl 60 can only succeed if they are experienced and have very good gear. That means that those dungeons are impossible for 5 'bad' lvl 60 with normal gear.
Maybe Neverwinter should consider to make some changes so that those new players do not get discouraged by that problem.
Many of you are missing the point. The problem is not the HR. The problem is not the 'bad' players in general. The problem is YOU. Many of you neglect and despise unexperienced ('bad') players without thinking that you were at some point also a 'bad' player. Try to understand that not everybody is the same. That not everybody can be a 'perfect' player. That people need time and advise to become a better player. Instead of kicking a 'bad' (unexperienced) player from a party tell them what they do wrong and what they should do to improve. To be a 'good' experienced player is not only a matter of time but also of the right gear and this takes a lot of time to get. Just be a little patience whith new players and remember that you were a new player too.
And I totally get that. I constantly give advice to those who are learning, and recieve advice from more experienced players. It's the ones who won't take advice or learn are the ones who don't deserve my time. Like going through any dungeon and having a cw who doesn't do any cc. Some thank me for the advice I give, and grew a bit as a player. Others throw a fit cuz they're not throwing any control, then won't understand why they're getting mobbed by a bosses' adds.
"Do cc for a cw in dungeon, he'll live for a day. Teach him to throw cc, he'll be more useful for a lifetime"
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
@ groark: Imho the problem is not so much the 'unexperienced' players as you call them but the fact that you need experienced players to succeed in some dungeons. That means that 5 lvl 60 can only succeed if they are experienced and have very good gear. That means that those dungeons are impossible for 5 'bad' lvl 60 with normal gear.
Maybe Neverwinter should consider to make some changes so that those new players do not get discouraged by that problem.
Yes, this is a huge problem with the game. Some of the dungeons are just not forgiving at all. 5 inexperienced players with even an 11k gear scores will probably not be able to do many of the T2 dungeons. If these dungeons are rated for 8300 gear scores, they should be reasonably doable by folks with such a gear score. As things stand there are a few dungeons that I'm not convinced could be done even by experts (without exploits) at the minimum gear score (using random blue gear and no armor/weapon enchants). There are some classes that can get away with lower gear scores, but some bosses are dps checks and your not going to have the dps to do it with a team just meeting the minimum gear scores.
Comments
I cannot fully disagree or agree with you. I would have to see some charts or head to head to agree with you. When I have been in groups with a second HR, that spends time in melee mode, they are usually at the bottom of the pain giver chart. Now that could be player, could be stats/build, could be gear, or some combo of all.
I also don't like the range/melee combos. It seems like some of the best ranged powers don't have the greatest melee flips.
My mind is open to possibilities and I have been wrong a few times in my life.
Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS
Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS
Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS
Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS
Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
Random bads make things much worse with the above mentioned running away from the group and kiting. Right now the only people who want them are the people who have difficulty completing a certain 9200 dungeon fairly. I havent seen that but I understand its tedious beyond mortal comprehension.
Well to be fair I have seen rangers do wellish in t1 dungeons because of the long range, lower mob numbers andwith mobs that have lower health so they die before other people get into range. Unless you have a no brain gwf who sprints ahead of everyone trying to get his damage in first.
Rangers can out DPS everyone on trash, and if played right don't mess up CC at all.
tl;dr don't play with !@#$%'s, know your class.
With what group comp? 1 DC, 3 GF's and 1 HR?
Michael -- 21.1k PvP Sent GWF
morePewPewlessQQ -- 20k Pvp/PvE HR
Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS
Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS
Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS
Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS
Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
2. There is a pre-existing role for the established classes. And there are experienced proven methods that are passed around. Go to The Wilds and you will see even good HRs who cannot agree on these things.
3. Related to 2, For most other classes you can look up a good spec and role and learn from there. Since this is not as available with the ranger there are an awful lot of really bad HRs out there spoiling the reputation. See some of the stories in this thread about aggro management/ roots etc.
Coming back to a theme in this thread the key to being a good Hr is aggro management IMHO. Building a GF and running it for a while will massively improve your value to the team as a HR. Because aggro management is their full-time job. Split can create a lot of DPS but you have to watch the whole engagement and use it properly or you are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> your team. Find a wall or open area behind the mob and position yourself so it fires through to that and not another mob. Do not hang back out of your team's reach. If you get too much aggro it becomes your job to draw it back into the scrum. Marauder is a crutch. When you are new and squishy it saves you from going splat. We are the only class with 6 encounters they should all be adding to your DPS through buffs or direct damage, there is a tab key, use it. Get some defensive stats. You are not a tank, but being able to ignore trash means shooting instead of dodging. In my experience HR is second best in class for several classes. They can single target but not as well as a TR. they can AOE but not as well as a CW. They can in fact run a kite but not as well as a GF. Not even close to a DC but there are a lot of no-DC runs these days (which I think is a game imbalance) but that still leaves them second best (and not as good as just hitting a pot). Thing is maybe 10% of HRs go to the trouble of figuring this out. So we will be the red-headed stepchild for a while. I run with people who know me and trust me to get the job done. Maybe in a month or two there will be a proven role for the class. this is again just my impression over the last couple of months and I could be totally wrong.
Ive read here tons and tons of bull**** and couple of normal posts regarding HRs.
1st about defense and squishiness:
im HR full archer spec with full dps build, only 2 slots armor/pants on deflection and im not dieing in instances rofl and neither im squishy (yes i am, but i know how to play), think people u have pots, soulforged, artis either bloodcrystal raven or waters, regen and lifesteal, more then enough survivability on your own to even need a DC-heals, so 1st thesis falls to water how paperlike rangers are. Because i killed every boss t2 dk-cn-mc-vt included without DC in team and im also soloing adds in DK without dc if needed if no CW.
2nd about dps:
Yes its true, HRs do so much threat/aggro but then again it all depends from the player how he can handle it.
Personally ive been never outdpsed by TR neither on single target or aoe party on long run especially.
Only ones who do outdps me are destros and we all know why, deep gash hint hint and full aoe cws, but then again it depends about the player its not allways about the class, since ive been outdpsed by 13-14k gwf who knows how to play with proper setup and aggression and knowing instance but then again some destros with 16-17, yes i said destros not IVs, fall behind me by few millions, same goes to cws, its all about knowing the instance and aggression.
I saw Theresa Faintsmile giving his POV, but dude, give us a break ur a bloody monster with all 10s which i will have probably like never ever xD. So godlike people dont be so harsh toward us mortals -_-
3rd about team play and grouping:
Yes people are ignorant or maybe i used harsh term or they just played with bad HRs so they got wrong impression about HRs in total so they dont want/like HRs in their group or think they could do better/faster with different setup, which comes down to playstyle and personal opinion which no one can dispute. 100 people 100 thoughts
And then again a good HR needs a good CW to be good and show himself in proper light, because i would never play fully aggressive and run 1st just for the sake of paingiver/dps to prove something or be that #1, no i always wait singularity and then do rain of arrows on top of it (smartplay) with 70% loaded splits, but here comes the catch, cws begin to be jelly coz HR can outdps them then that way and they just stop doing sing and rather use oppressive force, so ok brah in that case if ur gonna be a **** im gonna be **** also and do splitshoots and scatter mobs, so you see, what goes around comes around, dont blame the HRs blame CWs rather instead. Ohh yeah one more thing, u prolly thinking da dude was abusing stormstep to da max, actually no, neither before while it was working nor now, since i didnt invest single point in it, tho im considering respec it and use it since disruptive is like perma available. All in all imo HRs are really nice addition to any group especially ones that search for high single target burst or constant dps or aoe. Dno if u played with Pazzo-Maroon, GreenArrow-Otpisani (quit tho), and i bet that are alot more really good and more then decent rangers ingame but people just dont give them chance bcoz wrong presumption.
Conclusion is that every class is weak/strong how good player who runs it is, like it or not its true
my over 9000 cents, over and out
In a heavy add situation a HR should put up tons of damage. I will often out dps even CW's with higher gear scores. The problem is, who cares? A CW is still better overall DPS/debuff and brings a LOT more to the table. So even a well played, well gears HR with high damage is still not desirable for a group simply because they don't do anything better than other classes.
Well technically this is the problem faced by every non-DC class and not just HRs: everything that they contribute is vastly over-shadowed by what a CW brings to PvE dungeons. Right now there seems to be 3 major tiers in PvE:
Essential (except in vastly over-geared parties)
CW
Useful
DC
GWF
Effectively Irrelevant
HR
TR
GF
and with the forthcoming nerf of GWFs they may well go back to the bottom tier.
The sad fact is that when your aim is to clear dungeons as efficiently as possible, bringing a HR or TR to a party is sub-par to bringing yet another CW.
And that comment's kind of pointless cuz I can say the same about the other classes as well. TRs that need to be picked up while doing BARELY more damage than a dc, cw's who don't even know what cc means. Gf's that can't hold single target, let alone mob aggro, dc's who believe an astral shield once every 4 minutes should keep party alive... When this game just went live, didn't people make the same complaint about Tr's as we're now hearing about rangers?!
Maybe Neverwinter should consider to make some changes so that those new players do not get discouraged by that problem.
And I totally get that. I constantly give advice to those who are learning, and recieve advice from more experienced players. It's the ones who won't take advice or learn are the ones who don't deserve my time. Like going through any dungeon and having a cw who doesn't do any cc. Some thank me for the advice I give, and grew a bit as a player. Others throw a fit cuz they're not throwing any control, then won't understand why they're getting mobbed by a bosses' adds.
"Do cc for a cw in dungeon, he'll live for a day. Teach him to throw cc, he'll be more useful for a lifetime"
Yes, this is a huge problem with the game. Some of the dungeons are just not forgiving at all. 5 inexperienced players with even an 11k gear scores will probably not be able to do many of the T2 dungeons. If these dungeons are rated for 8300 gear scores, they should be reasonably doable by folks with such a gear score. As things stand there are a few dungeons that I'm not convinced could be done even by experts (without exploits) at the minimum gear score (using random blue gear and no armor/weapon enchants). There are some classes that can get away with lower gear scores, but some bosses are dps checks and your not going to have the dps to do it with a team just meeting the minimum gear scores.