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Huge MoF paragon path problem with rimefire effect, plz read!
hetzerx
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 10 Arc User
Alright so I've done some extensive testing 'bout an hour or so ago, couldn't beleive how counter productive their coding/rimefire is, tested this 4 times for about 10min each time, twice i thought my combat log was bugged so i reloaded and tested again twice, still the same results,
anyways and here's what i found: (feel free to go test yourself exactly the way I say for extra confirmation)
Alright so we all know Rimefire effect DoT, is when a smolder gets refreshed by a chill effect.
-If you go to a test dummy and use Fan the Flames, it hits for an initial dmg and 4 dot ticks as normal, (no smolders, i know its not suppose to keep reading)
-If you use Fan of Flames in the mastery slot, FoF applies fan and gathering dot dmg+ smolders on targets. (which is correct)
-If you use Conduit of Ice -no chill stacking- (unmastered because FoF is mastered), The CoI Dot ticks occur while they have the smolder /gathering /fan DoT, 2 dots at once. (Coi + FoF)
BUT
if you apply any chill effect to a smolder that is currently ticking, it stops completely, the "rimefire" effect starts up and continues after the "SOURCE" of the chill ( a mastered Conduit or Icy Terrain) stops doing their damage, then rimefire kicks in and ticks 4 times after~.
That is a HUGE loss in DPS, that dragging out 2 Dots that can be fully done in 4-5 seconds, into 2 Dots that takes 8-9seconds to complete. FOR THE SAME DMG.
Not only is this counter productive, you WILL CLIP your Dots even more this way, delaying any smolder/rimefire DoT dmg for 15+ seconds if you M:CoI > Icy terrain a few seconds apart from each other,
Icy terrain lasts 8-9 seconds on the ground and no smolder/rime effect will tick during icy's dmg or conduits dmg if its mastered.
TL;DR
Using Mastered FoF to get all targets with 2 dots (gather/fanning+smolder) is GOOD
^ doing the above with a normal Conduit of ice, is GOOD
3 Dots, 2 damage sources all ticking at the same time, = high dmg in a short time frame. (no chill stacks on any target) GOOD
>BAD<
using Icy terrain or Mastered CoI = VERY BAD, any chill effect +smolder will be DELAYED until the source spell of chill ends, THEN and only THEN will you get your rimefire/smolder DoT. it is possible with a bad rotation that involves 2 spells with chil to clip and delay a free source of dmg for 10+ seconds minimum.
Rimefire is useless.
The only thing that it allows you to do, is hit someone with ONE fire spell to get a smolder, let it tick 3 times (then apply chill) and the conduit or icy terrain will do their dmg, when it ends, you get 4 seconds of rimefire after it.
7 "smolder" ticks with 2 spells that took 10-12 seconds,
If you are only casting 2 spells in 12 seconds you will have horrible DPS.
Please fix it so that the rimefire can tick WHILE other spells are currently in effect, SINCE Smolders can tick WHILE other spells are active IF no chill is present.
Chill is suppose to REFRESH Smolders, not "keep it as a buffer and only apply it at the end of everything"
If you FoF > CoI/icy , rimefire should be ticking every second, constantly,
if you are constantly casting on trash mobs or on a boss, your rimefire wont even be ticking for damaging if you clip another spell, rimefire will never happen,
Unlike if you stay chill free, you can have smolders up 100% of the time + addiotnal spells which will never clip or delay its dmg.
Please fix this nonsense, thank you.
anyways and here's what i found: (feel free to go test yourself exactly the way I say for extra confirmation)
Alright so we all know Rimefire effect DoT, is when a smolder gets refreshed by a chill effect.
-If you go to a test dummy and use Fan the Flames, it hits for an initial dmg and 4 dot ticks as normal, (no smolders, i know its not suppose to keep reading)
-If you use Fan of Flames in the mastery slot, FoF applies fan and gathering dot dmg+ smolders on targets. (which is correct)
-If you use Conduit of Ice -no chill stacking- (unmastered because FoF is mastered), The CoI Dot ticks occur while they have the smolder /gathering /fan DoT, 2 dots at once. (Coi + FoF)
BUT
if you apply any chill effect to a smolder that is currently ticking, it stops completely, the "rimefire" effect starts up and continues after the "SOURCE" of the chill ( a mastered Conduit or Icy Terrain) stops doing their damage, then rimefire kicks in and ticks 4 times after~.
That is a HUGE loss in DPS, that dragging out 2 Dots that can be fully done in 4-5 seconds, into 2 Dots that takes 8-9seconds to complete. FOR THE SAME DMG.
Not only is this counter productive, you WILL CLIP your Dots even more this way, delaying any smolder/rimefire DoT dmg for 15+ seconds if you M:CoI > Icy terrain a few seconds apart from each other,
Icy terrain lasts 8-9 seconds on the ground and no smolder/rime effect will tick during icy's dmg or conduits dmg if its mastered.
TL;DR
Using Mastered FoF to get all targets with 2 dots (gather/fanning+smolder) is GOOD
^ doing the above with a normal Conduit of ice, is GOOD
3 Dots, 2 damage sources all ticking at the same time, = high dmg in a short time frame. (no chill stacks on any target) GOOD
>BAD<
using Icy terrain or Mastered CoI = VERY BAD, any chill effect +smolder will be DELAYED until the source spell of chill ends, THEN and only THEN will you get your rimefire/smolder DoT. it is possible with a bad rotation that involves 2 spells with chil to clip and delay a free source of dmg for 10+ seconds minimum.
Rimefire is useless.
The only thing that it allows you to do, is hit someone with ONE fire spell to get a smolder, let it tick 3 times (then apply chill) and the conduit or icy terrain will do their dmg, when it ends, you get 4 seconds of rimefire after it.
7 "smolder" ticks with 2 spells that took 10-12 seconds,
If you are only casting 2 spells in 12 seconds you will have horrible DPS.
Please fix it so that the rimefire can tick WHILE other spells are currently in effect, SINCE Smolders can tick WHILE other spells are active IF no chill is present.
Chill is suppose to REFRESH Smolders, not "keep it as a buffer and only apply it at the end of everything"
If you FoF > CoI/icy , rimefire should be ticking every second, constantly,
if you are constantly casting on trash mobs or on a boss, your rimefire wont even be ticking for damaging if you clip another spell, rimefire will never happen,
Unlike if you stay chill free, you can have smolders up 100% of the time + addiotnal spells which will never clip or delay its dmg.
Please fix this nonsense, thank you.
Post edited by hetzerx on
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Comments
Yep i tried with actualy mobs which lead me to test it on the dummies.
The thing that tricks you is, the Rimefire "icon" will be applied to the enemy youre hitting and constantly stay there if chill effects are applied or smolders, but the whole time they arent receiving the burn dmg IF a spell is doing its damage that has chill.
so once again, ill break it down. Go use scorching burst at-will + mastered conduit for an easy parse log for testing.
smolder ticks 4 times,
on a target you should see
scorching burst X dmg (from spell application)
smolder
smolder
smolder
smolder <- effect ends
But if you use SB at-will + M:CoI back to back the log is exactly this
scorching burst x dmg
smolder
>M:Coi
conduit dmg
conduit dmg
conduit dmg
conduitdmg
rimefire
rimefire
rimefire
rimefire.
you can physically SEE that ONLY the CoI is doing dmg on the dummies, the dummies have the blue flame rime effect icon but arent receiving any DoT dmg DURING CONDUIT, the rime DAMAGE is only applied when Conduit ends but the rime ICON is up the whole time.
it should be fixed to where the when smolders is changed to rimefire due to chilll, it ticks constantly/right away while CoI is active or while icy terrain is active.
if it DID 'work' that way the it should be intended the logs would read totally different like this.
scorching burst x dmg
>smolder dmg
>M:Coi
conduit dmg
>rimefire DAMAGE
conduit dmg
>rimefire DAMAGE
conduit dmg
>rimefire DAMAGE
conduitdmg
rimefire dmg
rimefire dmg
rimefire dmg
rimefire dmg (since it 'refreshes' the effects would tick 4 times after the last chill effect).
So once again, to simplify
if you use Scorching burst + Coi normally (nothing mastered)
the logs read like this (which can be proved visually also)
scorching burst x dmg
smolders
conduit dmg
smolder
conduit dmg
smolder
conduit dmg
smolder
conduit dmg
Using scorching burst + CoI mastered
scorching burst x dmg
smolder
conduit dmg
conduit dmg
conduit dmg
conduit dmg
rimefire effect
rimefire effect
rimefire effect
rimefire effect.
That is a HUGE loss in DPS, Dots need to tick at the same time of other things, not one after another.
icy terrain and conduit of ice both do all their dmg when overlapped, FoF/SB(smolders) + conduit both do their dmg at the same time when overlapped. they do not however overlapp if anythign gets chilled, it pretty much "locks" the smolder effect and keeps it "reserved/buffered" to be re-applied
Rimefire is stated as refreshing Smolder effect each when chill is applied. Maybe the refresh of Conduit occur each time before a tick of smolder happens. That would mean it resets the "lifetime" of Smolder constantly, thus preventing it from ticking since there is a delay in aplying of smolder and the first tick.
Edit: Tested with Icy Terrain and its the same. Rimefire ticks only after Icy Terrain expires.
the thing is it states it refreshes SMOLDER by doing so it equals into rimefire, but smolder ticks 4 times.
if you let smolders tick once, then you use chill, that smolder becomes rimefire and should tick for 4 times since its refreshed...which it does...but only after conduit is finished, meaning you lose a 4-5gap of DoT dmg.
you get more dps using smolders + conduit, than smolders + M:CoI since dmg is delayed and serves no purpose whatsoever, because in an 8second time frame you can re-add smolders anyways,
with all the glitches this game has had, its probably an error, first time in history would a developper code a DoT to be delayed, the whole point of DoTs are to be set up on a target which free's you from casting.
the smolder dot ticks arent 2 seconds apart, its the same time as conduit, so when conduit tick ends its impossible for another conduit tick to occur first before a smolder to "stop" it to fresh it. Its just bad coding.
It's not just that the 4 rimefire dots are applied at the end after the Mastered CoI dots.
Even when the CoI is unmastered but it is a Critical hit then the smolder dots are applied at the end too.
Screenshots for proof:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/52fxv4wtl3eqa45/hwRxXS1IgS
thanks for the additional proof samiamidi,
this clearly shows the delays "niche" of the sole reason to be MoF, is there persistent Dot, that is never doing dmg when you are forced to use chill (as the spec implies)
even the class feat for MoF makes any cold or arcane
spell apply rimefire when it critically hits, which then proves through testing stops normal smolder dmg and doesnt even do rimefire dmg during spells only until every spell stops casting, if you got enough recovery and keep CoI or Icy down you'll never have smolder dmg again. which is boogus.
By that time trash mobs would be dead and you would of had maybe 2-3 second of smolder dmg max (2-3ticks only) at the start and missed a LOT of dmg for the other 10-20 seconds
1) You're missing the point entirely
2) Thanks for the bump with a useless post
It is by far weaker, there is nothing special about the MoF compared to spellstorm, regardless of which paragon you choose a CW is 90% similar for the most part.
The only "perks" a MoF paragon path has is
Fire DoT (which this thread proves isnt up 90% of the time) so its useless.
FoF -fanning of flames- is the only thing thats keeping their dps up/dmg parse almost onpar.
At-will, garbage.
class feat passive for smolder on daily, useless
class feat passive crit = smolders, they also gain 15% crit severity
increased fire/smolder dmg, useless, Evocation is better.
So you only choose MoF to get
FoF - encounter
and 15% severity
2 passives are useless
fire dot is useless since its bugged and not active most of the time.
If someone who is MoF is beating a spellstorm cw, they either have higher GS to begin with, or the other person is garbage and not doing rotations/timing right on procs / slow reaction times.
You don't get it, do you? And when you don't, you come and make a hostile post.
Only thing that I've said is that it is possible to perform at the same level as a fire mage. If you don't, then you're doing things wrong, regardless of the disfunctionalities that the paragon has.
If you want you can always create a new MoF vs Spellstorm thread.
In my opinion there a few bugs which are very easy to spot in less than 5 mins.
Go to the Trade of Blades and slot Critical Conflagration.
Test case 1
Cast unmastered critical Ray of Enfeeblement on a dummy.
You get 6 Critical RoE dots and 4 non-critical smolder dots in between
Bug: smolder dots should be Critical
Screenshot:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0q2c1mvkmcpy9ri/Critical%20Conflagration%2BRoE.jpg
Test Case 2
Cast unmastered critical Conduit of Ice on a dummy
You get 6 Critical CoI dots and 4 Critical smolder dots
Bug: smolder dots are applied only after CoI dots have been applied
Screenshot:https://www.dropbox.com/s/ue4egtidfgcjqd1/Critical%20Conflagration%2BCoI.jpg
Test Case 3
Cast Critical Icy Terrain on one dummy
You get 7 Critical Icy Terrain ticks + 4 Critical smolder dots in between + 4 Critical Rimefire dots at the end
Bug:Critical smolders dots should be critical rimefire dots and the 4 critical rimefire dots at the end should not have been applied.
Screenshot:https://www.dropbox.com/s/3bqna6m0n9w5ajk/Critical%20Conflagration%2BIcy%20Terrain.jpg
3 simple use cases with 3 different behaviours. Well done Cryptic!
Calling a useless post useless, isn't being hostile, sorry but you arent the bright peach you thought you were.
You don't get it do you?
Your post was entirely useless, this thread is to talk about the bugs with MoF paragon tree, more specifically smolders/rimefire.
You talked about how spellstorm and MoF are similar on dmg chart.
So once again I will state, you don't get it do you? that's not even the topic at hand, thanks for proving yourself to be an idiot.
Not only did you make a statement based on your personal opinion rather than concrete facts, without zero data/spreadsheet or log parses it was about a completely irrelevant topic in a wrong thread.
Congratulations on being intelligent.
In your last Icy terrain test, it seems that smolders WILL proc "during" chill effect if the smolders was applied via a crit chill effect.
otherwise a normal smolders (FoF or SB at will) wont continue if a normal chill effect occurs, -icy terrain-.
because you can tag an enemy with SB to apply smolders then drop icy right away, smolders dmg ticks stops and you only see icy terrains dmg, the log even proves it stops ticking, but yet the smolder icon is marked on the enemy and switched to rimefire, which as tests showed, rimefire only occurs after a spells chill duration stops.
so in a sense, if icy is constantly being spammed down for trash + another cw using mastered CoI, you wont get rimefire procs ever.
if a boss has chill applied to it, you wont get a rimefire dmg ever, until the chill stops.
you will get smolderd during a chill effect if the smolders was applied via a chill crit from critical conflag.
good coding cryptic.
yes smolder dots proc but that is still not correct behaviour as the target has chill so rimefire dots should proc instead.
Unfortunately thats not true either, spam Ray of frost on a target and you will only get 1 rimefire dot during the short pause until the next Ray starts.
Same holds for Arcane Missiles, spam it and you will get just 1 smolder dot every 5 magic missiles.
Furthermore, Rimefire Smolder and Final flame often count towards damage done by other CWs in the party, even spellstorm ones.
As you can see there is not just one source of problem, inconsistency in spell behaviour, buggy class features and erroneous mechanics.
Only thing we can do is report our findings and hope the developers find the time to fix them.
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
Un saludo.
I have noticed before that Rimefire wasn't showing up on fights, but have usually assumed the fight was just ending too soon. So I paid closer attention to the combat log after running through Idris. Rimefire does not work as we are led to believe. Either it is buggy, or the dev needs to clarify what exactly is supposed to happen with the smolder/chill mechanics. If they do not know themeselves, then they need to get their heads out of their asses and figure it out and fix this.
As it is, this Flame Wizard is a waste of time and I should have gone Storm instead.
As it is currently you can still make the Fire Path viable for solo / pvp / 1man CW pugs you just have to use no chill effects.
The thaumaturge path -CAN- support this.
Fanning the Flames on TAB, what this does is the initial dmg does aoe dmg divided by 2 and adds smolders to any surrounding target. This is a huge increase to "burst" dps and sets up your rotation. If the initial cast crits for 7k everything aoe takes 3.5k and starts burning, also feeding more dmg to the main target -fanning-.
next you cast a Conduit of Ice (normal version unmastered), it's a cold spell that does NOT add chill, it furthers your AoE dps.
The thaum spec also has a feat called Snap Freeze, any COLD at-will or encounter (conduit) deal an increase X% dmg to targets who DONT have chill, there is only ONE cold spell that does not apply chill, and thats Conduit, this is a direct increase to your dps.
Thaum also supports arcane damage lowering mitigation, makes conduit apply a second DoT and your final feat makes conduit reduce mitigation further.
Encounters
TAB - Fanning the Flames
Conduit
Steal time
Avalanche for trash pulls / Ray of enfeeblement for bosses
Class feats
Evocation, needs no explanation
Critical conflag, 15% crit severity is a must, and arcane applies smolders, you can have anear 100% uptime of smolders this way between arcane spells and FtF. (this way we actually get smolder dmg unlike the rimefire/chill bug).
At-Wills
Magic missile, used 99% of the time
Scorching burst, since there isnt anything else to use, you only tap this ONCE for BOSSES only if smolders is going to drop before you can refresh it via FtF or a crit from arcane, a single tap of SB at-will refreshes smolders for 4 seconds.
Perfect vorpal,
HV set.
And yes, rimefire is still delayed at the end of the chill effect.
Too bad we can't necro the bug. They must have more important bugs to create, err I mean fix.
It doesn't have "performance issues", i can do everything quickly and efficiently, no problem.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know