So chances are good that in the future the shared paragons will diverge a bit more than they do now to better fit the class that is using them. Will not happen for this upcoming patch however.
In better news for Guardians, looking towards the next next patch (Patch after the upcoming patch) they will get some favorable adjustments. Improved swing times on some of the slower animations for example. (Griffon's Wrath is currently very difficult to interrupt targets with)
Also toying with Tab Mark being limited to a single target at a time, but having it no longer removed when damaged. With an updated FX, this would also be a handy group tool as it adds a reliable way for the Guardian to bring attention to a target.
So chances are good that in the future the shared paragons will diverge a bit more than they do now to better fit the class that is using them. Will not happen for this upcoming patch however.
In better news for Guardians, looking towards the next next patch (Patch after the upcoming patch) they will get some favorable adjustments. Improved swing times on some of the slower animations for example. (Griffon's Wrath is currently very difficult to interrupt targets with)
Also toying with Tab Mark being limited to a single target at a time, but having it no longer removed when damaged. With an updated FX, this would also be a handy group tool as it adds a reliable way for the Guardian to bring attention to a target.
Suggestion: Let the fighters choose, between Anvil of doom and indomitable battle strike.
So chances are good that in the future the shared paragons will diverge a bit more than they do now to better fit the class that is using them. Will not happen for this upcoming patch however.
In better news for Guardians, looking towards the next next patch (Patch after the upcoming patch) they will get some favorable adjustments. Improved swing times on some of the slower animations for example. (Griffon's Wrath is currently very difficult to interrupt targets with)
Also toying with Tab Mark being limited to a single target at a time, but having it no longer removed when damaged. With an updated FX, this would also be a handy group tool as it adds a reliable way for the Guardian to bring attention to a target.
That's some great news for us Guardians. Would have liked the AoE mark on TAB, but permamark is also a nice boost. How will permamark and normal mark work together? I assume you'll be able to 'override' mark with permamark but not vice versa? Or do they even stack?
Also toying with Tab Mark being limited to a single target at a time, but having it no longer removed when damaged. With an updated FX, this would also be a handy group tool as it adds a reliable way for the Guardian to bring attention to a target.
Mmmrph...you can try it, but given the cooldown on the other marking abilities that I know of (only two IIRC), I'm not sure how well that'll go over in dungeons.... I'm picturing a GF taking on the boss while CWs and DCs get squashed by mobs because TRs can't hold aggro and I dunno how well a GWF can draw a crowd. Interested to see how this will work, though.
The Mark thing is still really up in the air. It will certainly need quite a bit of hands on time. Also possible that Guardians could gain a Stamina meter that interacts with Tab Mark, allowing it to act as a force taunt if used while full. (but not require a full meter to use)
Though regards to dungeoning it's been my impression that many guardians do not use Tab to mark multiple targets, but instead rely on Threatening rush when quick Mark application is desired. Since the Swordmaster guardian loses that skill, it's likely that one of the divergent Paragon aspects would be Weapon Master Strike gaining Mark for Guardians.
Swordmaster simply doesn't work well for GFs. The only reason Weapon Master is any good for GWF is because you can shift cancel or wicked strike weave if you feel that is cheating. You can't do that as a GF.
As for tab, it is so integral to every class as a design aspect, except GF. If it's going to be mark, it needs to be good and it needs to work in pvp. You could take the tab ability away and not a single GF would miss it. I couldn't imagine not having unstoppable as a GWF, I would be useless. A rogue without stealth? A CW with no spell mastery? A DC without Divinity? All those classes would be seriously handicapped in pve and pvp without their tab ability. GF basically works without it already, though occasionally useful for pulling.
Of course it could be a be careful what you wish for scenario. A powerful tab ability might mean a rebalancing of the class. But it would be nice to have something I could say, man that is useful. Having it stay on there permanent would be a lot nicer than it is now. That would at least be miles ahead of where it is now. It still wouldn't feel like it was important to your class, but it at least be useful.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Since the Swordmaster guardian loses that skill, it's likely that one of the divergent Paragon aspects would be Weapon Master Strike gaining Mark for Guardians.
I firmly believe that GF's need work, both in power and quality of play. That said however......
You may want to look at the way abilities with mark interact with weapon enchants before you do that. To avoid the obligatory nerf after you introduce something OP.
As for sugesstions:
- Switch the tab and shift abilities they don't seem fitting in comparison to other classes.
- Mark (Taunt) becomes a ground targeted leap with aoe mark. This is in line with other classes mobility and escapes, while still maintaining flavour with use of stamina. Also potentially solves your problem with the loss of threatening rush on swordmaster.
- Block becomes Unstoppable. Block is clunky and impedes the use of encounters. If there must be a seperation of the fighters, call it something like 'Hunker Down', give it the mitigation and regen bonuses, but lock a player to the shield related at wills. You don't get the increased dmg of the GWF at wills, instead you get single target threat through agravating strike and longer Unstoppable due to shield slam regen. Locking the player to agrravating strike and shield slam keeps your block animations in line. (Yes this is a lot of work and probably unlikely)
- Make all shield regen abilities now regen or effect Unstoppable/Hunker Down.
- make mark a 5s debuff, the current mechanics are overcomplicated and unnescescary.
I firmly believe that GF's need work, both in power and quality of play. That said however......
You may want to look at the way abilities with mark interact with weapon enchants before you do that. To avoid the obligatory nerf after you introduce something OP.
Oh and if you are serious about changing taunt (which I like just the way it is). Make it an axe throw with damage and regenerating charges. Then you get your pve and pvp utility in one.
Then change shield block to a version of unstoppable. Ie you get the buffs but trade off is you still switch at wills, sacrificing aoe for mitigation. The block mechanic is to unwieldy IMHO for current gameplay and dodging red circles. Yes this is a lot of work and I wouldn't expect it to happen.
what are you saying? i dont want they denaturalize GF. If you read the forums you can see that no one is less happy than me with GF, i am the most severe critic against devps and not because i dint like gf, but the opposite: i like it like it is designed now and negatively comment wrong choices that ruin gf.
Throwing axe? i dont wantbecome a bad imitation of tr (kives)
unstoppable instead of shield? I am a gurdian...
GF urgently need fixs and rebalancing but dont need to be rework. need to fix bugs (ea. dont block cc), stop to nerf it because of gwf, serious buffs in many areas (ea. casting speeds, general damage is too low also for a guardian), fix that powers that dont work well (ea. dont proc enchants), reconsider some unjust nerf like that on frontline.
The direction taken with gf WAS good before they started to nerf it and avoid to fix bugs. The thins is going bad because of the lack of consideration (bugs), bad consideration (nerfs), and some wrong choice taken.
I edited that post a while before your reply. They're my suggestions.
You might like your flavour but it doesnt make the core mechanics any less broken.
As for being special.....Rangers, TR's, Cleric and Wizards all dodge.
GWF and GF both mark.
GWF and GF will directly share paragon paths and abilities.
This game is built around a certain style of combat, and some of those mechanics work, others don't.
Unstoppable works and Block is clunky.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Also toying with Tab Mark being limited to a single target at a time, but having it no longer removed when damaged. With an updated FX, this would also be a handy group tool as it adds a reliable way for the Guardian to bring attention to a target.
Please do not do this.
Guardian Fighters who do not use tab marking are numerous but moreover I feel they simply have not put the time into using the skill effectively. There are two major reasons for this IMO.
1) Tab marking is useless outside of dungeon delves so tab marking becomes something solo players learn to ignore.
2) The upper end players who would master the use of the tab mark often exclude Guardian Fighters due to the stacking of CW's.
The first thing I do when a GF in my guild becomes level 60 is teach them about tab marking. I know when I was leveling I thought it was completely useless but with a bit of practice it is a outstanding tool that I would never want to be without.
The way you make a GF extremely effective in a group is to keep them away from everybody else and this is where the tab marking comes into play. Tab marking allows me to pick mobs off of my squishy companions from across the room. New adds spawned in? No worries I'll just tab mark.
If we look at Frozen Heart I actually don't use threatening rush because the animation delay will get me killed. This is actually my preferred dungeon to teach new GF's how to not rely on threatening rush completely and learn how effective and required tab marking is as a mechanic.
With that being said I can say the biggest problem I see with your suggested change is that marking as it is in PnP, marking as it should have been and marking as it is are completely different. Marks are to make everything attack me instead of the group and not a mark as in a 'marked target.'
I couldn't care less if people in my party attack the things I mark, in fact I prefer they don't most times so making the mark function effectively as a marked target is actually a bit of a punishment. The target for the rest of the party is the boss and that is the one thing I don't want anywhere near me.
Look at the standard practice in delves. The GF tanks the adds and the rogue tanks the boss assuming there is a GF at all.
The reason is quite simple, if the GF brings all the adds to the boss then the rogue dies. If the GF ignores the adds the party is killed.
In a nutshell you can't change the mechanic of the GF tab mark without also changing the game mechanics in a more in depth fashion because what your are proposing would benefit a GF who is tanking the actual boss (such as Malabog's) but would severely impare the effectiveness of the GF's in the add fest fights (every fight other than Malabog's).
The Mark thing is still really up in the air. It will certainly need quite a bit of hands on time. Also possible that Guardians could gain a Stamina meter that interacts with Tab Mark, allowing it to act as a force taunt if used while full. (but not require a full meter to use)
Though regards to dungeoning it's been my impression that many guardians do not use Tab to mark multiple targets, but instead rely on Threatening rush when quick Mark application is desired. Since the Swordmaster guardian loses that skill, it's likely that one of the divergent Paragon aspects would be Weapon Master Strike gaining Mark for Guardians.
Feedback:Would it not be better to just associate Guard with Stamina instead of the "Guard Meter"? This way the tooltips regarding stamina regeneration would not need to specifically mention the GF's Guard Meter each time it explains something.
I also like the idea about the reworked TAB mechanic for the GF, a force taunt which causes enemies to face you if used in full. But like Ambisinister said, this may conflict with how PVE GFs who mastered their class mechanic in PVE to change their method of play. So what I thought about is that this revamped TAB mechanic would be some sort of Taunt Meter, where pressing TAB once would Mark an enemy like usual and consume a small amount from the Taunt Meter. But holding TAB would cause the GF to drain its Taunt Meter on a selected opponent, forcing the enemy to attack the GF for a number of seconds proportional to how much of the Taunt Meter was used up for this Taunt. The GF may use this on more than one enemy, but he will have to manage how much of the Taunt Meter he has to allocate for each enemy. Taunted enemies will deal reduced damage to other players in the party except for the GF, depending on how much of the Taunt Meter was used up for the GF. This action would in turn protect the party from the damage the Taunted enemy will dish out. Sort of like a soft version of Knight's Challenge as this suggestion of mine does not include the damage boost the GF and his enemy will deal to each other. The Taunt Meter will regenerate by itself by a set amount in time regardless of external influences like damage, and it may also regenerate via the use of encounters such as Enforced Threat, Iron Warrior, Knight's Valor, etc.
Such a mechanic would also perform well for PVP too. One gripe GF's have for PVP is that their class mechanic is utterly useless for PVP matches. But this one would let GF's work like a "protector" of their allies, shielding them from harm, locking enemies into a pseudo-1 vs. 1 combat where the enemy will have to deal with the GF first if he wishes to deal the full amount of damage he can do against the other allies of the GF. This would be an effective means to protect squishy classes like the CW against the hard-hitting TR's, a means to protect TR's against fellow GF's, DC's against everyone else, so on and so forth. There will be many ways to use such a TAB mechanic and it should provide GF's a solid place in dungeon parties as well.
The Mark thing is still really up in the air. It will certainly need quite a bit of hands on time. Also possible that Guardians could gain a Stamina meter that interacts with Tab Mark, allowing it to act as a force taunt if used while full. (but not require a full meter to use)
Though regards to dungeoning it's been my impression that many guardians do not use Tab to mark multiple targets, but instead rely on Threatening rush when quick Mark application is desired. Since the Swordmaster guardian loses that skill, it's likely that one of the divergent Paragon aspects would be Weapon Master Strike gaining Mark for Guardians.
This is a good idea. Stamina meter working with tab mark "forcing" taunt... I think alot more GFs would use this ability especially if Tab mark worked almost like enforced threat in that it was an AoE Mark that maybe used stamina meter for each target marked? With a cap of say 5?
Each mark takes away 1/5th of your stamina meter... It would also be really nice to see Mark not disappear if the marked target strikes you... It kind of defeats the purpose a little and I think is what makes GFs not apply it via tab....
Maybe decrease the -DR% from 8% to say 5% but the mark stays applied for 10 seconds or something.
That way its part of the GF rotation and stamina plays a nice roll there as well...
Feedback:Would it not be better to just associate Guard with Stamina instead of the "Guard Meter"? This way the tooltips regarding stamina regeneration would not need to specifically mention the GF's Guard Meter each time it explains something.
I also like the idea about the reworked TAB mechanic for the GF, a force taunt which causes enemies to face you if used in full. But like Ambisinister said, this may conflict with how PVE GFs who mastered their class mechanic in PVE to change their method of play. So what I thought about is that this revamped TAB mechanic would be some sort of Taunt Meter, where pressing TAB once would Mark an enemy like usual and consume a small amount from the Taunt Meter. But holding TAB would cause the GF to drain its Taunt Meter on a selected opponent, forcing the enemy to attack the GF for a number of seconds proportional to how much of the Taunt Meter was used up for this Taunt. The GF may use this on more than one enemy, but he will have to manage how much of the Taunt Meter he has to allocate for each enemy. Taunted enemies will deal reduced damage to other players in the party except for the GF, depending on how much of the Taunt Meter was used up for the GF. This action would in turn protect the party from the damage the Taunted enemy will dish out. Sort of like a soft version of Knight's Challenge as this suggestion of mine does not include the damage boost the GF and his enemy will deal to each other. The Taunt Meter will regenerate by itself by a set amount in time regardless of external influences like damage, and it may also regenerate via the use of encounters such as Enforced Threat, Iron Warrior, Knight's Valor, etc.
Such a mechanic would also perform well for PVP too. One gripe GF's have for PVP is that their class mechanic is utterly useless for PVP matches. But this one would let GF's work like a "protector" of their allies, shielding them from harm, locking enemies into a pseudo-1 vs. 1 combat where the enemy will have to deal with the GF first if he wishes to deal the full amount of damage he can do against the other allies of the GF. This would be an effective means to protect squishy classes like the CW against the hard-hitting TR's, a means to protect TR's against fellow GF's, DC's against everyone else, so on and so forth. There will be many ways to use such a TAB mechanic and it should provide GF's a solid place in dungeon parties as well.
I like this idea alot as well! Stamina for block instead of a block meter, you then have to manage your block appropriately and taking damage reduces block meter faster?
Then Tab could be tied to the "meter" currently associated with Guard and be a "taunt" meter like mentioned above. So the meter starts full, then drains the longer you "channel" it on a target.
The target gets increased aggro and I like the idea of also adding -damage to teammates giving it some pvp viability. Make like a 2-3% damage lost for each second channeled?
The Mark thing is still really up in the air. It will certainly need quite a bit of hands on time. Also possible that Guardians could gain a Stamina meter that interacts with Tab Mark, allowing it to act as a force taunt if used while full. (but not require a full meter to use)
Though regards to dungeoning it's been my impression that many guardians do not use Tab to mark multiple targets, but instead rely on Threatening rush when quick Mark application is desired. Since the Swordmaster guardian loses that skill, it's likely that one of the divergent Paragon aspects would be Weapon Master Strike gaining Mark for Guardians.
I like the idea of a force taunt, continue. Also I see the guardian fighter as a more tank oriented defender, more than a GWF so them having a mark on weapon master's isn't a bad idea in my book.
Can't agree that the lack of using TAB is a lack of skill. It's just completely useless 98% of the time. The exceptions in Delves are Spellplague and Frozen Heart where you have to aggro mobs all over the place and kite around, but that's pretty much it. Any good GF should be able to handle these two dungeons appropriately, though in the Caverns a GF isn't even mandatory. I can draw the adds away from the melees with my DC as well e.g.
But besides that, a Permamark kind of feature would benefit any playstyle. Defensive types could use it to quickly build aggro on specific targets. You can still mark targets away from you if you like to play this way, but have a guaranteed uptime and with Enhanced Mark you should be able to hold aggro more easily.
For DPS types (and others) it would finally be advantageous to Permamark a whole set of enemies before rushing into them to give your group a nice debuff going into the fight. Permamark+Feated Fray+GPF would stack to a nice 21% DPS boost. People also always rightfully complained that Mark is difficult to maintain, because often you'll be struck right after the animation of TAB/Enforced/Threatening has finished and losing Mark instantly.
Overall it would make the TAB Mark viable next to Enforced and T-Rush. Also in solo play where the TAB ability is a complete wasteland. You can suddenly permamark targets/bosses for a nice debuff.
Please don't make perma-mark single target only. I know plenty of times that I've tab marked multiple things to give boost to my party while I'm dealing with keeping the boss occupied. How about make it perma-mark, but, the GF has to keep hitting the target, to keep it applied? So it has a 10 second timer for those others that may get tagged, however ift he GF hits them with anything, it keeps going. This would allow for flexability in play style, without losing the benefit of having a ranged threat on multiple targets.
So chances are good that in the future the shared paragons will diverge a bit more than they do now to better fit the class that is using them. Will not happen for this upcoming patch however.
In better news for Guardians, looking towards the next next patch (Patch after the upcoming patch) they will get some favorable adjustments. Improved swing times on some of the slower animations for example. (Griffon's Wrath is currently very difficult to interrupt targets with) ,
Also toying with Tab Mark being limited to a single target at a time, but having it no longer removed when damaged. With an updated FX, this would also be a handy group tool as it adds a reliable way for the Guardian to bring attention to a target.
As you all know i think the damage is done. Even if in the future something between gwf-swordm path and gf-swirdm path will be different it is all useless if you , now, nerf GF because of gwf. I will never forgive you (you devps) for frontline surge nerf. Please consider all my complains as reasoned review/cimment, i'm not simply crying.
I'm fear that just "some" favorable adjustment won't be enough.
... Also possible that Guardians could gain a Stamina meter that interacts with Tab Mark, allowing it to act as a force taunt if used while full. (but not require a full meter to use)
Though regards to dungeoning it's been my impression that many guardians do not use Tab to mark multiple targets, but instead rely on Threatening rush when quick Mark application is desired. Since the Swordmaster guardian loses that skill, it's likely that one of the divergent Paragon aspects would be Weapon Master Strike gaining Mark for Guardians.
This is just NOT true of experienced Guardians and this should not be the case for a majority of experienced GFs. Simply stated, it is a rooky mistake to use Threatening Rush in "most" (few exceptions) Dungeons.
While Threatening Rush is great for small scattered herds of mobs, most experienced Guardian Fighters will only use this in specific situations. Tide of Iron is still largely preferred in Dungeons for its shield regeneration and survival properties. In Dungeons, Guardian Fighters use Mark, Enhanced Mark and Enforced Threat for true marking, NOT Threatening Rush.
Please please please be careful with this as it could lead to player laziness and even worse playstyles.
GF controlling mobs example:
- GF takes the lead from DC and walks into mobs, aggroing them.
- GF hits Enforced Threat (5 mobs), uses TAB to get N-5 (N=mobs not marked) marked mobs
- GF Lunging Strikes at the ones posing the most threat to teammates
- GF hits Villain's Menace to ensure he has their attention, else Fighters Recovery to keep going
- GF uses Tide of Iron to keep shield maintained a bit longer and block bigger attacks
- Rinse, repeat.
"It is said that idle hands are the Devil's tools: Idle geek hands, however, came up with gunpowder, nuclear weapons, and toilet plungers." -Illiad
So chances are good that in the future the shared paragons will diverge a bit more than they do now to better fit the class that is using them. Will not happen for this upcoming patch however.
In better news for Guardians, looking towards the next next patch (Patch after the upcoming patch) they will get some favorable adjustments. Improved swing times on some of the slower animations for example. (Griffon's Wrath is currently very difficult to interrupt targets with)
Also toying with Tab Mark being limited to a single target at a time, but having it no longer removed when damaged. With an updated FX, this would also be a handy group tool as it adds a reliable way for the Guardian to bring attention to a target.
Lol. Now you want to give the GWF in the second paragon the mark ability too? Because all paragon shared between the two fighters. And that's the problem! You give the tabmark for free to the GWF, but the GF instead doesn't receive anything as comparison. Why don't give them the unstoppable Tab too? Or the sprint? If don't, then remove the mark from threating rush and give it instead to Aggraving Strike or Cleave! So you avoid that GWF profit from Tabability, but the GF remain empty by sharing Paragons. THAT will be a good choice.
As you all know i think the damage is done. Even if in the future something between gwf-swordm path and gf-swirdm path will be different it is all useless if you , now, nerf GF because of gwf. I will never forgive you (you devps) for frontline surge nerf. Please consider all my complains as reasoned review/cimment, i'm not simply crying.
I'm fear that just "some" favorable adjustment won't be enough.
I keep seeing this in multiple posts.
The change to frontline surge is something that is happening to *ALL* classes. If an ability hits multiple targets and increases their AP gain due to number hit, it is wrong. This isn't a 'nerf' due to GWF getting frontline surge. This is a correction to an ability that should of been done sooner and wasn't.
That's some great news for us Guardians. Would have liked the AoE mark on TAB, but permamark is also a nice boost. How will permamark and normal mark work together? I assume you'll be able to 'override' mark with permamark but not vice versa? Or do they even stack?
Dunno why but I was goin to suggest exactly the perma mark as "special" feature for the GFs.
The most logical idea I got is that they are gonna do something like the Bronzewood enchant mark which is a total different mark that will stack with the "normal" one.
This can be a better way to manage it since I still got a lot of issues when there's another GF/GWF in the party and really often when I apply a mark it turns off as soon as the other GF/GWF is hitten
Please please please be careful with this as it could lead to player laziness and even worse playstyles.
GF controlling mobs example:
- GF takes the lead from DC and walks into mobs, aggroing them.
- GF hits Enforced Threat (5 mobs), uses TAB to get N-5 (N=mobs not marked) marked mobs
- GF Lunging Strikes at the ones posing the most threat to teammates
- GF hits Villain's Menace to ensure he has their attention, else Fighters Recovery to keep going
- GF uses Tide of Iron to keep shield maintained a bit longer and block bigger attacks
- Rinse, repeat.
LoL
What if I use another simple but pretty much effective rotation like:
- lunge into the middle of the pack
- a couple of threatning rush to mark everything and their grandma in the range
- frontling surge + enforced threat (start frontline surge so you can proc crushin pin and generate even more agro; couple this with a bronzewood enchant)
- cleave untill everything is dead (block + aggravating strike if any "big" red area is landing)
In less than 3 sec I got all the agro and those mobs will stay over me like a fly on the glue.
DC won't have to care about anyone other than me, CW and TR will put out all their potential out since noone is gonna hurt em and all of this because I've spammed a couple of threatning rush (I could have eventually saved my lungin to move out of the fight toward another pack of mobs).
I hardly belive you can really mark 1-2 mobs without losing the mark over other 2-3 in the meanwhile you're spamming the tab.
The combo Threatning rush right before the frontline surge + enforced threat is just too good to be dropped as it was nothing.
P.S.
I almost forgot... I've never needed Enhanced mark
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hdrcruzMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
I like the concept of permamark, because i see GF mainly as a boss/elite tanking class. Yeah, we have Rush and Enforced Threat, but these are only two power in our entire list, and one of them is a paragon power.
Dunno why but I was goin to suggest exactly the perma mark as "special" feature for the GFs.
The most logical idea I got is that they are gonna do something like the Bronzewood enchant mark which is a total different mark that will stack with the "normal" one.
This can be a better way to manage it since I still got a lot of issues when there's another GF/GWF in the party and really often when I apply a mark it turns off as soon as the other GF/GWF is hitten
LoL
What if I use another simple but pretty much effective rotation like:
- lunge into the middle of the pack
- a couple of threatning rush to mark everything and their grandma in the range
- frontling surge + enforced threat (start frontline surge so you can proc crushin pin and generate even more agro; couple this with a bronzewood enchant)
- cleave untill everything is dead (block + aggravating strike if any "big" red area is landing)
In less than 3 sec I got all the agro and those mobs will stay over me like a fly on the glue.
DC won't have to care about anyone other than me, CW and TR will put out all their potential out since noone is gonna hurt em and all of this because I've spammed a couple of threatning rush (I could have eventually saved my lungin to move out of the fight toward another pack of mobs).
I hardly belive you can really mark 1-2 mobs without losing the mark over other 2-3 in the meanwhile you're spamming the tab.
The combo Threatning rush right before the frontline surge + enforced threat is just too good to be dropped as it was nothing.
P.S.
I almost forgot... I've never needed Enhanced mark
First of all: Mark from different GFs stack. I have a picture with 4! marks. Even the mark from IBS kill stack alone with GF mark. So if your mark is removed, YOU get hitted. Or it's a bug, which i see often in FH. I mark a golem, he don't hit me, but then mark disappear without duration run out. Maybe it's a bug with other debuff duration(debuff a run out and mark get removed too).
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morduuMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Also toying with Tab Mark being limited to a single target at a time, but having it no longer removed when damaged. With an updated FX, this would also be a handy group tool as it adds a reliable way for the Guardian to bring attention to a target.
This is a horrible idea. Currently, most GFs are not needed on the boss, but generally run around collecting adds. Limiting mark to one target absolutely destroys the ability to do that.
Further, limiting mark to one target seems fairly useless unless it is also changed to dramatically increase threat without further action needed. Currently, merely marking a target does not generate threat unless you're affirmatively hitting the target as well or you have the enhanced mark feat slotted. Marking only one target to pull it away from the DC or CW seems rather pointless because I still have to lumber over (or use my at-will cap closer that the new paragon will no longer have) to hit on the mob to pull it away.
I understand this is just the begining of an idea, but I have serious concern that this will not fix anything, and just make it worse.
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hdrcruzMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This is a horrible idea. Currently, most GFs are not needed on the boss, but generally run around collecting adds. Limiting mark to one target absolutely destroys the ability to do that.
Further, limiting mark to one target seems fairly useless unless it is also changed to dramatically increase threat without further action needed. Currently, merely marking a target does not generate threat unless you're affirmatively hitting the target as well or you have the enhanced mark feat slotted. Marking only one target to pull it away from the DC or CW seems rather pointless because I still have to lumber over (or use my at-will cap closer that the new paragon will no longer have) to hit on the mob to pull it away.
I understand this is just the begining of an idea, but I have serious concern that this will not fix anything, and just make it worse.
We are not needed on the boss because TR have better mechanics to do this. If we could revert this situation with a stronger single target mark i bet we will be the one tanking them.
We are not needed on the boss because TR have better mechanics to do this. If we could revert this situation with a stronger single target mark i bet we will be the one tanking them.
Lol why GF is needed to tank a boss? The most are harmless idiot ones. They can't OS the party. They can't attack fast. Neither they aren't any threat at all! The mobs instead are the ones that kill the party. The bosses needs abilities, that only can beaten by GF mechanics. THEN the GF is not the idiot from kiting service. Or even the 'we use glitches as CWs/ranged Classes' problem occur...
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hdrcruzMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Lol why GF is needed to tank a boss? The most are harmless idiot ones. They can't OS the party. They can't attack fast. Neither they aren't any threat at all! The mobs instead are the ones that kill the party. The bosses needs abilities, that only can beaten by GF mechanics. THEN the GF is not the idiot from kiting service. Or even the 'we use glitches as CWs/ranged Classes' problem occur...
Sadly you are right... ^^
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morduuMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
We are not needed on the boss because TR have better mechanics to do this. If we could revert this situation with a stronger single target mark i bet we will be the one tanking them.
I don't think so, because you wouldn't have any way to really protect the rest of the part from the zillions of adds. We can already tank the boss if we wanted to, but the problem is always a lack of aggro management for the adds. So, the GF handles the adds, while the TR handles the boss. It isn't an issue of the TR having better "mechanics," its an issue of needing to control adds more than needing to control boss.
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So chances are good that in the future the shared paragons will diverge a bit more than they do now to better fit the class that is using them. Will not happen for this upcoming patch however.
In better news for Guardians, looking towards the next next patch (Patch after the upcoming patch) they will get some favorable adjustments. Improved swing times on some of the slower animations for example. (Griffon's Wrath is currently very difficult to interrupt targets with)
Also toying with Tab Mark being limited to a single target at a time, but having it no longer removed when damaged. With an updated FX, this would also be a handy group tool as it adds a reliable way for the Guardian to bring attention to a target.
Suggestion: Let the fighters choose, between Anvil of doom and indomitable battle strike.
Cheers.
That's some great news for us Guardians. Would have liked the AoE mark on TAB, but permamark is also a nice boost. How will permamark and normal mark work together? I assume you'll be able to 'override' mark with permamark but not vice versa? Or do they even stack?
Mmmrph...you can try it, but given the cooldown on the other marking abilities that I know of (only two IIRC), I'm not sure how well that'll go over in dungeons.... I'm picturing a GF taking on the boss while CWs and DCs get squashed by mobs because TRs can't hold aggro and I dunno how well a GWF can draw a crowd. Interested to see how this will work, though.
Kaylee Krankenwagen, level 60 GF | Tavandruil Wayfinder, level 49 GWF | Aldith Langley, level 51 HR
Though regards to dungeoning it's been my impression that many guardians do not use Tab to mark multiple targets, but instead rely on Threatening rush when quick Mark application is desired. Since the Swordmaster guardian loses that skill, it's likely that one of the divergent Paragon aspects would be Weapon Master Strike gaining Mark for Guardians.
As for tab, it is so integral to every class as a design aspect, except GF. If it's going to be mark, it needs to be good and it needs to work in pvp. You could take the tab ability away and not a single GF would miss it. I couldn't imagine not having unstoppable as a GWF, I would be useless. A rogue without stealth? A CW with no spell mastery? A DC without Divinity? All those classes would be seriously handicapped in pve and pvp without their tab ability. GF basically works without it already, though occasionally useful for pulling.
Of course it could be a be careful what you wish for scenario. A powerful tab ability might mean a rebalancing of the class. But it would be nice to have something I could say, man that is useful. Having it stay on there permanent would be a lot nicer than it is now. That would at least be miles ahead of where it is now. It still wouldn't feel like it was important to your class, but it at least be useful.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I firmly believe that GF's need work, both in power and quality of play. That said however......
You may want to look at the way abilities with mark interact with weapon enchants before you do that. To avoid the obligatory nerf after you introduce something OP.
As for sugesstions:
- Switch the tab and shift abilities they don't seem fitting in comparison to other classes.
- Mark (Taunt) becomes a ground targeted leap with aoe mark. This is in line with other classes mobility and escapes, while still maintaining flavour with use of stamina. Also potentially solves your problem with the loss of threatening rush on swordmaster.
- Block becomes Unstoppable. Block is clunky and impedes the use of encounters. If there must be a seperation of the fighters, call it something like 'Hunker Down', give it the mitigation and regen bonuses, but lock a player to the shield related at wills. You don't get the increased dmg of the GWF at wills, instead you get single target threat through agravating strike and longer Unstoppable due to shield slam regen. Locking the player to agrravating strike and shield slam keeps your block animations in line. (Yes this is a lot of work and probably unlikely)
- Make all shield regen abilities now regen or effect Unstoppable/Hunker Down.
- make mark a 5s debuff, the current mechanics are overcomplicated and unnescescary.
what are you saying? i dont want they denaturalize GF. If you read the forums you can see that no one is less happy than me with GF, i am the most severe critic against devps and not because i dint like gf, but the opposite: i like it like it is designed now and negatively comment wrong choices that ruin gf.
Throwing axe? i dont wantbecome a bad imitation of tr (kives)
unstoppable instead of shield? I am a gurdian...
GF urgently need fixs and rebalancing but dont need to be rework. need to fix bugs (ea. dont block cc), stop to nerf it because of gwf, serious buffs in many areas (ea. casting speeds, general damage is too low also for a guardian), fix that powers that dont work well (ea. dont proc enchants), reconsider some unjust nerf like that on frontline.
The direction taken with gf WAS good before they started to nerf it and avoid to fix bugs. The thins is going bad because of the lack of consideration (bugs), bad consideration (nerfs), and some wrong choice taken.
I edited that post a while before your reply. They're my suggestions.
You might like your flavour but it doesnt make the core mechanics any less broken.
As for being special.....Rangers, TR's, Cleric and Wizards all dodge.
GWF and GF both mark.
GWF and GF will directly share paragon paths and abilities.
This game is built around a certain style of combat, and some of those mechanics work, others don't.
Unstoppable works and Block is clunky.
Please do not do this.
Guardian Fighters who do not use tab marking are numerous but moreover I feel they simply have not put the time into using the skill effectively. There are two major reasons for this IMO.
1) Tab marking is useless outside of dungeon delves so tab marking becomes something solo players learn to ignore.
2) The upper end players who would master the use of the tab mark often exclude Guardian Fighters due to the stacking of CW's.
The first thing I do when a GF in my guild becomes level 60 is teach them about tab marking. I know when I was leveling I thought it was completely useless but with a bit of practice it is a outstanding tool that I would never want to be without.
The way you make a GF extremely effective in a group is to keep them away from everybody else and this is where the tab marking comes into play. Tab marking allows me to pick mobs off of my squishy companions from across the room. New adds spawned in? No worries I'll just tab mark.
If we look at Frozen Heart I actually don't use threatening rush because the animation delay will get me killed. This is actually my preferred dungeon to teach new GF's how to not rely on threatening rush completely and learn how effective and required tab marking is as a mechanic.
With that being said I can say the biggest problem I see with your suggested change is that marking as it is in PnP, marking as it should have been and marking as it is are completely different. Marks are to make everything attack me instead of the group and not a mark as in a 'marked target.'
I couldn't care less if people in my party attack the things I mark, in fact I prefer they don't most times so making the mark function effectively as a marked target is actually a bit of a punishment. The target for the rest of the party is the boss and that is the one thing I don't want anywhere near me.
Look at the standard practice in delves. The GF tanks the adds and the rogue tanks the boss assuming there is a GF at all.
The reason is quite simple, if the GF brings all the adds to the boss then the rogue dies. If the GF ignores the adds the party is killed.
In a nutshell you can't change the mechanic of the GF tab mark without also changing the game mechanics in a more in depth fashion because what your are proposing would benefit a GF who is tanking the actual boss (such as Malabog's) but would severely impare the effectiveness of the GF's in the add fest fights (every fight other than Malabog's).
Feedback: Would it not be better to just associate Guard with Stamina instead of the "Guard Meter"? This way the tooltips regarding stamina regeneration would not need to specifically mention the GF's Guard Meter each time it explains something.
I also like the idea about the reworked TAB mechanic for the GF, a force taunt which causes enemies to face you if used in full. But like Ambisinister said, this may conflict with how PVE GFs who mastered their class mechanic in PVE to change their method of play. So what I thought about is that this revamped TAB mechanic would be some sort of Taunt Meter, where pressing TAB once would Mark an enemy like usual and consume a small amount from the Taunt Meter. But holding TAB would cause the GF to drain its Taunt Meter on a selected opponent, forcing the enemy to attack the GF for a number of seconds proportional to how much of the Taunt Meter was used up for this Taunt. The GF may use this on more than one enemy, but he will have to manage how much of the Taunt Meter he has to allocate for each enemy. Taunted enemies will deal reduced damage to other players in the party except for the GF, depending on how much of the Taunt Meter was used up for the GF. This action would in turn protect the party from the damage the Taunted enemy will dish out. Sort of like a soft version of Knight's Challenge as this suggestion of mine does not include the damage boost the GF and his enemy will deal to each other. The Taunt Meter will regenerate by itself by a set amount in time regardless of external influences like damage, and it may also regenerate via the use of encounters such as Enforced Threat, Iron Warrior, Knight's Valor, etc.
Such a mechanic would also perform well for PVP too. One gripe GF's have for PVP is that their class mechanic is utterly useless for PVP matches. But this one would let GF's work like a "protector" of their allies, shielding them from harm, locking enemies into a pseudo-1 vs. 1 combat where the enemy will have to deal with the GF first if he wishes to deal the full amount of damage he can do against the other allies of the GF. This would be an effective means to protect squishy classes like the CW against the hard-hitting TR's, a means to protect TR's against fellow GF's, DC's against everyone else, so on and so forth. There will be many ways to use such a TAB mechanic and it should provide GF's a solid place in dungeon parties as well.
This is a good idea. Stamina meter working with tab mark "forcing" taunt... I think alot more GFs would use this ability especially if Tab mark worked almost like enforced threat in that it was an AoE Mark that maybe used stamina meter for each target marked? With a cap of say 5?
Each mark takes away 1/5th of your stamina meter... It would also be really nice to see Mark not disappear if the marked target strikes you... It kind of defeats the purpose a little and I think is what makes GFs not apply it via tab....
Maybe decrease the -DR% from 8% to say 5% but the mark stays applied for 10 seconds or something.
That way its part of the GF rotation and stamina plays a nice roll there as well...
I like this idea alot as well! Stamina for block instead of a block meter, you then have to manage your block appropriately and taking damage reduces block meter faster?
Then Tab could be tied to the "meter" currently associated with Guard and be a "taunt" meter like mentioned above. So the meter starts full, then drains the longer you "channel" it on a target.
The target gets increased aggro and I like the idea of also adding -damage to teammates giving it some pvp viability. Make like a 2-3% damage lost for each second channeled?
I like the idea of a force taunt, continue. Also I see the guardian fighter as a more tank oriented defender, more than a GWF so them having a mark on weapon master's isn't a bad idea in my book.
But besides that, a Permamark kind of feature would benefit any playstyle. Defensive types could use it to quickly build aggro on specific targets. You can still mark targets away from you if you like to play this way, but have a guaranteed uptime and with Enhanced Mark you should be able to hold aggro more easily.
For DPS types (and others) it would finally be advantageous to Permamark a whole set of enemies before rushing into them to give your group a nice debuff going into the fight. Permamark+Feated Fray+GPF would stack to a nice 21% DPS boost. People also always rightfully complained that Mark is difficult to maintain, because often you'll be struck right after the animation of TAB/Enforced/Threatening has finished and losing Mark instantly.
Overall it would make the TAB Mark viable next to Enforced and T-Rush. Also in solo play where the TAB ability is a complete wasteland. You can suddenly permamark targets/bosses for a nice debuff.
I'm fear that just "some" favorable adjustment won't be enough.
yes it is right but the correct solution is fix block, not replace it with unstoppable. I'd like to contonue to play a guardian
This is just NOT true of experienced Guardians and this should not be the case for a majority of experienced GFs. Simply stated, it is a rooky mistake to use Threatening Rush in "most" (few exceptions) Dungeons.
While Threatening Rush is great for small scattered herds of mobs, most experienced Guardian Fighters will only use this in specific situations. Tide of Iron is still largely preferred in Dungeons for its shield regeneration and survival properties. In Dungeons, Guardian Fighters use Mark, Enhanced Mark and Enforced Threat for true marking, NOT Threatening Rush.
Please please please be careful with this as it could lead to player laziness and even worse playstyles.
GF controlling mobs example:
- GF takes the lead from DC and walks into mobs, aggroing them.
- GF hits Enforced Threat (5 mobs), uses TAB to get N-5 (N=mobs not marked) marked mobs
- GF Lunging Strikes at the ones posing the most threat to teammates
- GF hits Villain's Menace to ensure he has their attention, else Fighters Recovery to keep going
- GF uses Tide of Iron to keep shield maintained a bit longer and block bigger attacks
- Rinse, repeat.
Lol. Now you want to give the GWF in the second paragon the mark ability too? Because all paragon shared between the two fighters. And that's the problem! You give the tabmark for free to the GWF, but the GF instead doesn't receive anything as comparison. Why don't give them the unstoppable Tab too? Or the sprint? If don't, then remove the mark from threating rush and give it instead to Aggraving Strike or Cleave! So you avoid that GWF profit from Tabability, but the GF remain empty by sharing Paragons. THAT will be a good choice.
I keep seeing this in multiple posts.
The change to frontline surge is something that is happening to *ALL* classes. If an ability hits multiple targets and increases their AP gain due to number hit, it is wrong. This isn't a 'nerf' due to GWF getting frontline surge. This is a correction to an ability that should of been done sooner and wasn't.
Dunno why but I was goin to suggest exactly the perma mark as "special" feature for the GFs.
The most logical idea I got is that they are gonna do something like the Bronzewood enchant mark which is a total different mark that will stack with the "normal" one.
This can be a better way to manage it since I still got a lot of issues when there's another GF/GWF in the party and really often when I apply a mark it turns off as soon as the other GF/GWF is hitten
LoL
What if I use another simple but pretty much effective rotation like:
- lunge into the middle of the pack
- a couple of threatning rush to mark everything and their grandma in the range
- frontling surge + enforced threat (start frontline surge so you can proc crushin pin and generate even more agro; couple this with a bronzewood enchant)
- cleave untill everything is dead (block + aggravating strike if any "big" red area is landing)
In less than 3 sec I got all the agro and those mobs will stay over me like a fly on the glue.
DC won't have to care about anyone other than me, CW and TR will put out all their potential out since noone is gonna hurt em and all of this because I've spammed a couple of threatning rush (I could have eventually saved my lungin to move out of the fight toward another pack of mobs).
I hardly belive you can really mark 1-2 mobs without losing the mark over other 2-3 in the meanwhile you're spamming the tab.
The combo Threatning rush right before the frontline surge + enforced threat is just too good to be dropped as it was nothing.
P.S.
I almost forgot... I've never needed Enhanced mark
First of all: Mark from different GFs stack. I have a picture with 4! marks. Even the mark from IBS kill stack alone with GF mark. So if your mark is removed, YOU get hitted. Or it's a bug, which i see often in FH. I mark a golem, he don't hit me, but then mark disappear without duration run out. Maybe it's a bug with other debuff duration(debuff a run out and mark get removed too).
This is a horrible idea. Currently, most GFs are not needed on the boss, but generally run around collecting adds. Limiting mark to one target absolutely destroys the ability to do that.
Further, limiting mark to one target seems fairly useless unless it is also changed to dramatically increase threat without further action needed. Currently, merely marking a target does not generate threat unless you're affirmatively hitting the target as well or you have the enhanced mark feat slotted. Marking only one target to pull it away from the DC or CW seems rather pointless because I still have to lumber over (or use my at-will cap closer that the new paragon will no longer have) to hit on the mob to pull it away.
I understand this is just the begining of an idea, but I have serious concern that this will not fix anything, and just make it worse.
We are not needed on the boss because TR have better mechanics to do this. If we could revert this situation with a stronger single target mark i bet we will be the one tanking them.
Lol why GF is needed to tank a boss? The most are harmless idiot ones. They can't OS the party. They can't attack fast. Neither they aren't any threat at all! The mobs instead are the ones that kill the party. The bosses needs abilities, that only can beaten by GF mechanics. THEN the GF is not the idiot from kiting service. Or even the 'we use glitches as CWs/ranged Classes' problem occur...
Sadly you are right... ^^
I don't think so, because you wouldn't have any way to really protect the rest of the part from the zillions of adds. We can already tank the boss if we wanted to, but the problem is always a lack of aggro management for the adds. So, the GF handles the adds, while the TR handles the boss. It isn't an issue of the TR having better "mechanics," its an issue of needing to control adds more than needing to control boss.