bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited October 2013
ladysylvia, I can definitely see a case for limitations regarding when and how often loot rules can be changes. For instance, not allowing loot rules to be changed while a piece is already being rolled for, not while in combat, and perhaps even not for a certain amount of time after the loot rule has been changed or someone has left/joined the team.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
If gear that was chosen by "need" became BoP, it still wouldn't solve the problem as the person could still salvage it. A greed-only option would be there specifically for players that wanted to each have a fair chance at *any* piece of epic gear that dropped. I can empathize with people who need to gear up, but in that case this loot mode would not be for you.
I agree both options would be nice.
And I will have to look into the round robin to see if it's similar, but at the same time I tend to be picky with my loot. I pass on greens and greed on the rest. If other people want the greens I would hate for them to go to waste.
Plus it sounds like the Round Robin would take way the overflow bag and that's...ick.
And I will have to look into the round robin to see if it's similar, but at the same time I tend to be picky with my loot. I pass on greens and greed on the rest. If other people want the greens I would hate for them to go to waste.
Plus it sounds like the Round Robin would take way the overflow bag and that's...ick.
I could be wrong, but I don't know if a round robin mode would only apply to purple items, (I suppose that's what the loot threshold is for, though).
Either way, sometimes steps outside of the players themselves, need to be taken in order to ensure "fair play"...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Round Robin is an automatic distribution. It gives loot to each group member in turn. But this means in an Untrusted group someone with half a brain can manipulate it to ensure they get a much higher chance for the best loot. It is best suited to a Trusted party where they do not want loot message spam.
Greed-Only Loot, by contrast, is still a roll-based loot on every applicable item with an optional Pass.
I should also note that the introduction of Greed-Only Loot is probably one of the few reasons I would ever routinely PvE again on my existing characters since I only play casually and even one wasted group is a large loss, especially on my main CW who gets screwed by Need-Before-Greed Loot because there are almost always multiple CW's in any high level endgame group.
Off-topic: what would be nice is Personalized Loot Threshold. I personally have no need of and hate the stream of constant loot notifications of players picking up every single Green in a 100 mile radius when I'm in a party. The loot messages in this game are particularly huge, striking and frequent, occupying a large amount of screen real estate. At level 60, with geared characters, if it ain't blue or purple or an (Uncommon or better) enchant, I don't want it!
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited October 2013
fondlez , that's actually a great idea. The only problem is that, for instance, I generally pass on green pieces of gear, but still want the green-quality runes & enchants that drop. If they added a higher degree of fine tuning, (like I only want to be asked if I want blue or better gear, but green or better runes/enchants), then I'd fully support it.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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kolbe11Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I should also note that the introduction of Greed-Only Loot is probably one of the few reasons I would ever routinely PvE again on my existing characters since I only play casually and even one wasted group is a large loss, especially on my main CW who gets screwed by Need-Before-Greed Loot because there are almost always multiple CW's in any high level endgame group.
YUP! Agreed here.
I got lucky the other day and had a GG run on DK whereby all of us (a PUG mind you) agreed to "GREED" only. A rarity. Even more rare, we had one individual that confessed to accidentally needing something and literally gave the item to the highest greed roller in the loot log... shocking!
Regardless, it is obvious that there is a need for a "GREED ONLY" option. However, I think it needs to be obviously displayed what the mode is upon joining a group... perhaps a hover-over on the leader avatar. Otherwise, this will be downright abused by the real greedy.
"It is said that idle hands are the Devil's tools: Idle geek hands, however, came up with gunpowder, nuclear weapons, and toilet plungers." -Illiad
axer128Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
Actually allowing groups to even select a loot mode would be needed first..
The fact is the most popular group content is locked to the bloody queue system, and the queue system also locks down the loot mode to be unchangeable. (and sets it to green/need for dungeons/skirmish and round robin for CTA)
I'd like a full-greed option also because I wouldn't have to click all those annoying "need or greed" messages, often popupping during the fights. In a greed-only run there would be no need for those messager, items would simply be rolled and added to the winner's inventory. +1 for the idea :-)
You can set the loot mode prior to entering the dungeon. The problem comes up in that lately once the group has entered, the game has assigned someone else as leader, the loot mode gets reset to the default settings, and cannot be changed back. Personally I prefer the Round Robin mode for 2 reasons. 1. It equally distributes the loot(usually), and 2. Those annoying loot messages no longer show up on the middle of the screen unless it meets the threshold. The Greed Only idea is not bad in concept, but the implementation of it would be a bear I would think. Too many circumstances to try and program for.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
I'd like a full-greed option also because I wouldn't have to click all those annoying "need or greed" messages, often popupping during the fights. In a greed-only run there would be no need for those messager, items would simply be rolled and added to the winner's inventory. +1 for the idea :-)
Well, I'd assume you'd still have the option to pass on an item. What you're talking about, (and I'm not against it either), is just round-robin.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
With the current setups of 2-3 CWs, we would still be very disadvantaged by Needing against 2 others CWs while the TR or DC would automatically get their class item.
Greed-only seems much better and more fair overall, but it needs to be agreed upon at start and if one doesn't like it, should not join.
And why do you keep saying" dungeon farmer" like it's something bad or like they should not be benefiting from the game? Dungeon farming is the only way to make enough AD to buy the good stuff, if you don't intend to open your wallet.
most greed rule party are made when DD event is not on so its called dungeon farmers (not doing dungeon bec of chest, but bec of boss drops / or only doing 1st boss only,2nd boss, etc)
if they will add other roll rules it will take lots of time
the best and fair will be random (automatically distributes items randomly no rolls)
no matter what rules a party set there will only be 1 lucky member
and looting rules should be set while creating party and cannot be changed once inside dungeon
when inviting others it should display the loot rules
^^^ What he said. And further, a savvy person could keep track of the order, and intentionally pickup trash drops (that would otherwise be ignored) so as to manipulate the order that items are assigned, in their favor. "Greed only" would still allow people to pass on trash drops they didn't want, and the winner of a random roll would get the desired items...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
It just needs to be like the CTA's. Loot is just assigned as it drops. If you see it, its yours. And its not even visible to others. No pop-ups, no windows, no ninja's, no fuss, and nobodies business what someone in the group looted.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
It just needs to be like the CTA's. Loot is just assigned as it drops. If you see it, its yours. And its not even visible to others. No pop-ups, no windows, no ninja's, no fuss, and nobodies business what someone in the group looted.
That's a good idea as well.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Why not make it so when you roll need it becomes bound? Would this solve it?
Does not solve anything. Humans, i.e. players, are more than selfish enough to routinely roll Need just to salvage an item or vendor it, or even if they gained nothing whatsoever, than to otherwise Greed or Pass to let even the chance for a stranger to have it. It is just human nature.
Good systems are designed with human nature in mind.
Um... I normally skip any item that I can't use...unless no one can use it...then I gamble. If I CAN use it, I need...if I need it...otherwise I gamble.
let's really define what round robin is and why it's not the same as "greed only".
round robin means that whenever someone picks something up, it goes to someone in the party in some kind of order. so you are winning whatever is picked up based on the round robin order. that means you can't pass on anything or need or greed on anything. and when the loot is picked up, it goes to whoever is next in line to get the picked up loot.
there's also an option that whatever you pick up, you keep. i can't remember offhand what that option is called, but it's in there. i usually choose that option when i'm helping a guild member level. they can pick up what they want and i don't have to be involved.
a greed only option would eliminate "need" altogether. you would have the option to pass on it, but at least with only one option to choose to qualify you to get the loot, it would fairly hand out the loot to all that want to participate.
if there was an honor code to follow or more so, if everyone followed an honor code concerning loot drops, there wouldn't be anything wrong with the current loot distribution system. but since that doesn't exist...
I honestly do not see the issue about people needing it is the same thing as greeding but the word is different and certain classes cannot roll need! Ignoring the chance of you not finding an item that is your class (20% chance of being your class) its the same thing. That is a little different odds though if there is 2 or 3 of the same class in a roll. This chance of not being your class is constantly refreshed every loot roll, so again what is the difference?
When I first discovered need or greed in WoW, I needed everything, because I felt I needed it to sell. lol. Then I became a greeder to be fair to the people that really needed it, but noticed that there was alot of "needers" out there that obviously really did not need the item according to what their gear was currently. So I just started to need again because who cares anyways its just pixel loot that means nothing really. I guess this could get a little touchy when you are dealing with rare purples that are boe.
Best thing to do currently is... wait on all rolls to roll last if you see a ninja roller try to scoop the item from him with your own need roll. That is the only thing you could do ATM. Another thing if everyone just rolls need and another guy REALLY needed the item but did not win it. Common courtesy would be to hand the item over to him if he asks for it. Ya know?
The only other options is to only let players roll need if it was a detected upgrade for their toon, then you would see alot of player go in dungeons with crappy gear after that knowing they could need on everything....or you could party only with trusted greed rollers.... good luck on that.
I honestly do not see the issue about people needing it is the same thing as greeding but the word is different and certain classes cannot roll need! Ignoring the chance of you not finding an item that is your class (20% chance of being your class) its the same thing. That is a little different odds though if there is 2 or 3 of the same class in a roll.
When I first discovered need or greed in wow, i needed everything, because I felt I needed it to sell. lol. Then I became a greeder to be fair to the people that really needed it, but noticed that there was alot of "needers" out there that obviously really did not need the item according to what their gear was currently. So I just started to need again because who cares anyways its just pixel loot that means nothing really.
The only other options is to only let players roll need if it was a detected upgarde for their toon, then you would see alot of player go in dungeons with crappy gear after that knowing they could need on everything....or party only with trusted greed rollers.... good luck on that.
well, that's the entire point. if there was an option for everyone to choose need for all drops, then people would probably do that. since class specific item drops eliminated that possibility, it gives an unfair advantage to individuals that are of that class but don't really "need" that item. and to define "need" here, we are talking about the item being an upgrade over your current gear. not "needing" the AD to fill your coffers. i mean, we all are looking to fill our coffers and if that's what we're going to do then everyone needs a fair shot at that possibility.
Yes but the chance of it being an item for your class goes hand in hand with the luck of the dice rolling. Its all luck unless there is only certain class items that drop from bosses. Every boss imo should have the same chance (20%) of it being your class.... 1 of 5. Another words every boss should have a loot table of possibly dropping 1 of 5 items for each class. This is how they work right? Boss loot is the issue not trash mobs because trash does not drop purples correct?
Another idea or option would be to add an extra need choice 1 of 2 choices.
1. Need to Sell.
2. Need to Equip for upgrade.
A need to equip for upgrade would overrule any "need to sell" roll but would only be availiable if the system deems it a gear upgrade. Again this would have players wear crappy gear to be able to roll "Need to Equip" Maybe there would be a fix for that issue as well though.
Yes but the chance of it being an item for your class goes hand in hand with the luck of the dice rolling. Its all luck unless there is only certain class items that drop from bosses. Every boss imo should have the same chance (20%) of it being your class.... 1 of 5. Another words every boss should have a loot table of possibly dropping 1 of 5 items for each class. This is how they work right? Boss loot is the issue not trash mobs because trash does not drop purples correct?
yes, we are only talking about boss drops.
in specific games, we'd just like to be able to set up the loot distribution to greed only so everyone gets a fair shot at the boss drops. that is the "loot" that we are discussing in this thread.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
in specific games, we'd just like to be able to set up the loot distribution to greed only so everyone gets a fair shot at the boss drops. that is the "loot" that we are discussing in this thread.
This. Let's ignore any of the various definitions of "need" here. I want an "all greed" loot mode for one simple reason: All members of a team should be contributing equally, and they should all get an equal shot at the epic boss drops - no matter what class they or the item happens to be.
Another option would be to simply have the boss drop something for every member of the party, and eliminate rolling all together, but frankly I find that an unlikely avenue for the devs to take.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I still like the Round Robin over the Greed only option. Another thing is you can always trade at the end of the dungeon, and interact with the other party members. I know interaction is a novel concept in an MMO, but it does work. In the end it's a matter of playing fair, if others don't that is their problem. The Greed only option is like having locks on your door, all it will do is keep honest people honest, they really don't keep burglars out. With RNG working the way it does in Neverwinter you will always have that person that gets the monty haul, and another that will get squat.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I still like the Round Robin over the Greed only option. Another thing is you can always trade at the end of the dungeon, and interact with the other party members. I know interaction is a novel concept in an MMO, but it does work. In the end it's a matter of playing fair, if others don't that is their problem. The Greed only option is like having locks on your door, all it will do is keep honest people honest, they really don't keep burglars out. With RNG working the way it does in Neverwinter you will always have that person that gets the monty haul, and another that will get squat.
Did you just equate having lucky RNG rolls with being a burglar and breaking in to someones house?
All that is needed is a way to keep honest people honest. a greed only roll. Its so simple I don't know how you guys are still discussing this?
I still like the Round Robin over the Greed only option. Another thing is you can always trade at the end of the dungeon, and interact with the other party members. I know interaction is a novel concept in an MMO, but it does work. In the end it's a matter of playing fair, if others don't that is their problem. The Greed only option is like having locks on your door, all it will do is keep honest people honest, they really don't keep burglars out. With RNG working the way it does in Neverwinter you will always have that person that gets the monty haul, and another that will get squat.
Except, as you keep being told time and time again, Round Robin is already in the game AND it is only suitable for Trusted parties.
Greed-Only works for both Trusted and Untrusted parties and is not in the game, yet is a system that is highly used by players (far more so than Round Robin).
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"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I agree both options would be nice.
And I will have to look into the round robin to see if it's similar, but at the same time I tend to be picky with my loot. I pass on greens and greed on the rest. If other people want the greens I would hate for them to go to waste.
Plus it sounds like the Round Robin would take way the overflow bag and that's...ick.
I could be wrong, but I don't know if a round robin mode would only apply to purple items, (I suppose that's what the loot threshold is for, though).
Either way, sometimes steps outside of the players themselves, need to be taken in order to ensure "fair play"...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Round Robin is an automatic distribution. It gives loot to each group member in turn. But this means in an Untrusted group someone with half a brain can manipulate it to ensure they get a much higher chance for the best loot. It is best suited to a Trusted party where they do not want loot message spam.
Greed-Only Loot, by contrast, is still a roll-based loot on every applicable item with an optional Pass.
I should also note that the introduction of Greed-Only Loot is probably one of the few reasons I would ever routinely PvE again on my existing characters since I only play casually and even one wasted group is a large loss, especially on my main CW who gets screwed by Need-Before-Greed Loot because there are almost always multiple CW's in any high level endgame group.
Off-topic: what would be nice is Personalized Loot Threshold. I personally have no need of and hate the stream of constant loot notifications of players picking up every single Green in a 100 mile radius when I'm in a party. The loot messages in this game are particularly huge, striking and frequent, occupying a large amount of screen real estate. At level 60, with geared characters, if it ain't blue or purple or an (Uncommon or better) enchant, I don't want it!
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
YUP! Agreed here.
I got lucky the other day and had a GG run on DK whereby all of us (a PUG mind you) agreed to "GREED" only. A rarity. Even more rare, we had one individual that confessed to accidentally needing something and literally gave the item to the highest greed roller in the loot log... shocking!
Regardless, it is obvious that there is a need for a "GREED ONLY" option. However, I think it needs to be obviously displayed what the mode is upon joining a group... perhaps a hover-over on the leader avatar. Otherwise, this will be downright abused by the real greedy.
The fact is the most popular group content is locked to the bloody queue system, and the queue system also locks down the loot mode to be unchangeable. (and sets it to green/need for dungeons/skirmish and round robin for CTA)
So that needs to be addressed first.
-Epic Dread Vault Crushed.
Characters (Dragon): Axer (60 Guardian, Leader of Crush It!), Controller (60 Wizard), Warlocker (60 Warlock)
Well, I'd assume you'd still have the option to pass on an item. What you're talking about, (and I'm not against it either), is just round-robin.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
most greed rule party are made when DD event is not on so its called dungeon farmers (not doing dungeon bec of chest, but bec of boss drops / or only doing 1st boss only,2nd boss, etc)
if they will add other roll rules it will take lots of time
the best and fair will be random (automatically distributes items randomly no rolls)
no matter what rules a party set there will only be 1 lucky member
and looting rules should be set while creating party and cannot be changed once inside dungeon
when inviting others it should display the loot rules
Well, no, I had in mind an automatic greed with no option to pass :-)
Something like the post above say: items randomly distributed automatically
That would be round robin. It is already ingame.
^^^ What he said. And further, a savvy person could keep track of the order, and intentionally pickup trash drops (that would otherwise be ignored) so as to manipulate the order that items are assigned, in their favor. "Greed only" would still allow people to pass on trash drops they didn't want, and the winner of a random roll would get the desired items...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
That's a good idea as well.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
PinkSugar, lvl 60 CW.
Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
Premium Juicebox, lvl 60 CW.
Pink Exxxtacy, Ranger
There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
Does not solve anything. Humans, i.e. players, are more than selfish enough to routinely roll Need just to salvage an item or vendor it, or even if they gained nothing whatsoever, than to otherwise Greed or Pass to let even the chance for a stranger to have it. It is just human nature.
Good systems are designed with human nature in mind.
But for the most part, I skip it.
let's really define what round robin is and why it's not the same as "greed only".
round robin means that whenever someone picks something up, it goes to someone in the party in some kind of order. so you are winning whatever is picked up based on the round robin order. that means you can't pass on anything or need or greed on anything. and when the loot is picked up, it goes to whoever is next in line to get the picked up loot.
there's also an option that whatever you pick up, you keep. i can't remember offhand what that option is called, but it's in there. i usually choose that option when i'm helping a guild member level. they can pick up what they want and i don't have to be involved.
a greed only option would eliminate "need" altogether. you would have the option to pass on it, but at least with only one option to choose to qualify you to get the loot, it would fairly hand out the loot to all that want to participate.
if there was an honor code to follow or more so, if everyone followed an honor code concerning loot drops, there wouldn't be anything wrong with the current loot distribution system. but since that doesn't exist...
When I first discovered need or greed in WoW, I needed everything, because I felt I needed it to sell. lol. Then I became a greeder to be fair to the people that really needed it, but noticed that there was alot of "needers" out there that obviously really did not need the item according to what their gear was currently. So I just started to need again because who cares anyways its just pixel loot that means nothing really. I guess this could get a little touchy when you are dealing with rare purples that are boe.
Best thing to do currently is... wait on all rolls to roll last if you see a ninja roller try to scoop the item from him with your own need roll. That is the only thing you could do ATM. Another thing if everyone just rolls need and another guy REALLY needed the item but did not win it. Common courtesy would be to hand the item over to him if he asks for it. Ya know?
The only other options is to only let players roll need if it was a detected upgrade for their toon, then you would see alot of player go in dungeons with crappy gear after that knowing they could need on everything....or you could party only with trusted greed rollers.... good luck on that.
well, that's the entire point. if there was an option for everyone to choose need for all drops, then people would probably do that. since class specific item drops eliminated that possibility, it gives an unfair advantage to individuals that are of that class but don't really "need" that item. and to define "need" here, we are talking about the item being an upgrade over your current gear. not "needing" the AD to fill your coffers. i mean, we all are looking to fill our coffers and if that's what we're going to do then everyone needs a fair shot at that possibility.
Another idea or option would be to add an extra need choice 1 of 2 choices.
1. Need to Sell.
2. Need to Equip for upgrade.
A need to equip for upgrade would overrule any "need to sell" roll but would only be availiable if the system deems it a gear upgrade. Again this would have players wear crappy gear to be able to roll "Need to Equip" Maybe there would be a fix for that issue as well though.
yes, we are only talking about boss drops.
in specific games, we'd just like to be able to set up the loot distribution to greed only so everyone gets a fair shot at the boss drops. that is the "loot" that we are discussing in this thread.
This. Let's ignore any of the various definitions of "need" here. I want an "all greed" loot mode for one simple reason: All members of a team should be contributing equally, and they should all get an equal shot at the epic boss drops - no matter what class they or the item happens to be.
Another option would be to simply have the boss drop something for every member of the party, and eliminate rolling all together, but frankly I find that an unlikely avenue for the devs to take.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Did you just equate having lucky RNG rolls with being a burglar and breaking in to someones house?
All that is needed is a way to keep honest people honest. a greed only roll. Its so simple I don't know how you guys are still discussing this?
-CN last drop
-MC offhand loots for someones companion
Except, as you keep being told time and time again, Round Robin is already in the game AND it is only suitable for Trusted parties.
Greed-Only works for both Trusted and Untrusted parties and is not in the game, yet is a system that is highly used by players (far more so than Round Robin).