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DC PVP... umm what?
x0rda
Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 10 Arc User
Hey peeps,
So i've been reading alot of posts latley about PvP balance, and skills/ tene enchants and what ever, and would like to post my thoughts on the DC side of the story (from my perspective).
I play all classes all though i play my DC the most.
I'm at 13.2k GS atm and close to 28k health with ~40%crit and almost 4k power. 39%DR (50 with feated foresight)
First and foremost, the DC is NOT FINE! atleast i dont think so. Compared to all other classes we scale the least with gear. Put a <insertclass> in my gear (most rank9 enchants and BiS slots) and they will wreak havoc on the battlefield.
Between , fighting against a GF and never standing up again, getting, well rareley nowadays one shotted but 2-3 shotted by TR's, Never getting a spell off against a CW that know's his/her game and even if i dont run into alot of gwf's that can kill me (some with tene's for sure) but why even bother staying there doing 400 damage/tick with BoTS and 3-4 others from my team banging their head against them..
Part of the problem of the DC is the CC output from the other classes, i mean who thought to give TR's impact shot?, ranged 5-10k dmg with STUN?!?! and how many do they actually have? Has the issue with stealth/nonstealthed been fixed?
And the amount of time i spend proned against a single GF? Even if they not all kill me in 1 cc chain i'm more or less dead and i do NOT have the capacity to selfheal that much damage fast enough.
In short, damage/lowered defense comes in greater numbers than damage mitigation does.
Then to the DC itself. In no particular order,
Righteousness, haha funny..
Casting speed, oh lord it's slow.
Astral shield in divinity is one of our bread and butter spells. From a PvP perspective it's easy as pie to just knock out of and there goes one of our best survival skills out the window.
Divinity generation. Even more true when you are being forced to run and dodge.
My most effective emergency heal is a PvP pot.......
Will cryptic fix this? hehe i seriousley doubt it, for one, has ANYONE seen a PW dev/mod post anything to even acknowledge that there is a "performance" problem with the DC? i've not seen anything. So afaik they think all is fine and dandy. I would actually like them coming out saying that the DC is fine. Then i could just stop wasting my time.
So i've been reading alot of posts latley about PvP balance, and skills/ tene enchants and what ever, and would like to post my thoughts on the DC side of the story (from my perspective).
I play all classes all though i play my DC the most.
I'm at 13.2k GS atm and close to 28k health with ~40%crit and almost 4k power. 39%DR (50 with feated foresight)
First and foremost, the DC is NOT FINE! atleast i dont think so. Compared to all other classes we scale the least with gear. Put a <insertclass> in my gear (most rank9 enchants and BiS slots) and they will wreak havoc on the battlefield.
Between , fighting against a GF and never standing up again, getting, well rareley nowadays one shotted but 2-3 shotted by TR's, Never getting a spell off against a CW that know's his/her game and even if i dont run into alot of gwf's that can kill me (some with tene's for sure) but why even bother staying there doing 400 damage/tick with BoTS and 3-4 others from my team banging their head against them..
Part of the problem of the DC is the CC output from the other classes, i mean who thought to give TR's impact shot?, ranged 5-10k dmg with STUN?!?! and how many do they actually have? Has the issue with stealth/nonstealthed been fixed?
And the amount of time i spend proned against a single GF? Even if they not all kill me in 1 cc chain i'm more or less dead and i do NOT have the capacity to selfheal that much damage fast enough.
In short, damage/lowered defense comes in greater numbers than damage mitigation does.
Then to the DC itself. In no particular order,
Righteousness, haha funny..
Casting speed, oh lord it's slow.
Astral shield in divinity is one of our bread and butter spells. From a PvP perspective it's easy as pie to just knock out of and there goes one of our best survival skills out the window.
Divinity generation. Even more true when you are being forced to run and dodge.
My most effective emergency heal is a PvP pot.......
Will cryptic fix this? hehe i seriousley doubt it, for one, has ANYONE seen a PW dev/mod post anything to even acknowledge that there is a "performance" problem with the DC? i've not seen anything. So afaik they think all is fine and dandy. I would actually like them coming out saying that the DC is fine. Then i could just stop wasting my time.
Post edited by x0rda on
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Comments
With a Halfing/CON/DEX/Deflection/Regen build, DC's are a difficult to kill with anything less than 2x G.Tene players in PvP or a multi-player chain CC or an insanely good TR.
That said, you do sacrifice significant healing output to achieve the above builds. But they do work if your team is not incompetent.
At core, DC's are broken compared to other classes because of how much you have to change to be effective from PvE in PvP. This is by a large margin the most on DC class. If any class needed duel spec, it would be the Cleric.
DC's are also broken in terms of damage output. Not only do they almost completely not benefit from Armor Penetration, which is ironic because their nominally BiS armor set from the new major patch contains a ton of it AND they even have a (very bad) heroic feat for the stat, but other key mechanics like Repurpose Soul are broken since Feywild. Thus, pure dps and hybrid Clerics are not competitive (i.e. with or against equally geared classes) or, in some cases viable, in PvE or PvP.
Having played since beta, I recommend you do not expect any of the above to change soon. In fact, every patch since beta seems to break more of the DC as well as curtail the range of playstyles available. Invest in any of your other classes instead. You will have much more synergy with the type of content available, will not have to keep looking forward to constants adverse changes and you will ultimately enjoy yourself a lot more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSfWNNw4pdI
Yes, do that. ^_^
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
That GF without skill is probably the best GF in the game right now, you also probably only watched 30 seconds of the video because he dailies me 3 times: at 1:14, then 3:29, then 5:02. The reason why it seems like he's not doing much is because a) He's trying to bait my dodges before attacking me, and b) he's trying to get my health low enough so that his full combo of encounters + daily will kill me (Something you might understand if you were a seasoned pvp'r or just paid close attention). He has the best gear for his spec and is fully slotted with Greater Tenebrouses. This is basically how a fight between me and any GF goes, I have not died 1v1 to any GF since running this spec and since the recording of this video I'm even tankier than before, and if the best cant kill me, noone will.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
If you're running with competent players my build is totally viable in PvE. And if they buff DC's more, great, that just means I'll be more unkillable. But it isn't necessary, we need some work but overall we're in a pretty good spot.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
The biggest problem isn't even with those of us with gear and experience. It's the up-and-coming DCs who haven't yet the gear or the skill to compensate for the shortcomings of their class. Any new 60 is likely to feel discouraged in PvP, but I don't think anyone feels more helpless than the new 60 DC. Poor things.
A few judicious fixes (e.g. working armor pen, less severe Righteousness, faster animations, more useful feat options, some Daily power tweaks...) would go a long way towards eroding that cliff between "food for everyone" and "strong team asset".
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Even more of a reason for you experienced DCs here to try and help him
Funny to see all those "DCs are all great" comments by people who have invested a lot to gear their chars up. A class should be enjoyable even if you don't have maxed it out. Otherwise ppl won't play the class in pvp anymore or just leave matches. That is what I do - getting perma-cced while I throw cottonballs back at my attackers maybe "challenging" 5 matches. After that it is just a major waste of time which I can invest much better than being the punching ball for some players that spent way too much RTM into their GFs and GWFs and then think they are good players.
Edit: also, 1v1s like that are fairly unusual outside of "lets 1v1 for lolz".
Still, was a funny video.
Not sure how it's with other classes but these things are also important for a CW. Get Oppressor build, don't ignore defensive feats, stack chills fast, get regen from blue items, get HV set... you see where I'm coming from?
It's all fine that PvP should need specialized builds - if you want to be really successful.
What it's not fine is that we don't have dual spec so we can switch for PvP/PvE as needed.
...put absolutely zero points into INT?
CWs benefit from being able to survive long enough to kill things with spells. They still need to be able to deal damage as much as possible, so presumably need INT for spellpower (and wis and cha for recharge and crits).
DCs built the Dex/Con way benefit from being much harder to kill in a completely non-heal dependent fashion, because most of our time is spent being flung around the place, being focussed by two or three people. It sacrifices healing power hugely because
A) wisdom only affects healing numbers, not mitigation (and mitigation is king), and
So the ostensible purpose of the cleric, to be a 'leader', applying healing, mitigation, buff and debuffs becomes more of a "unkillable nimble doom-midget that can throw out concommitantly crappy heals (because he has no points in primary or secondary stats), but provides a ton of static mitigation and can tie up enemy teams until everyone dies of boredom". It's more effective to outright ignore a cleric built that way than it is to try and kill them: they heal&damage for less, so while they're unkillable, their team is as a consequence marginally more killable. Juts go 2v1 some other dude on their team.
It's ....a meta, certainly, but it's a very different meta to the usual healing situation, and I'm almost certain it's not the metagame the devs intended the DC to go for in PvP. "Don't focus on heals, whatever you do" O_o
And as you note: it's basically a dedicated PvP role. A Dex/Con DC is going to be of very limited utility in most PvE stuff.
Not true at all for CW. Only thing that gives a significant edge for CWs in PvP over all other builds is more than 3xG.Tene. For example, with such a build, four extra points (8% HP) from specializing from scratch into CON via Race is not that large a dps increase and the survival increase is marginal. Only skill keeps you alive as CW, no matter your build, and almost your entire effectiveness comes from damage not control in PvP.
Even if you found a "perfect" specialized build for a CW in PvP, you are talking about differences of a few percent. The differences we are talking about in this thread for Cleric class in general PvP are orders of magnitude larger in effectiveness - to the point of viable vs non-viable. No other class faces this choice just to do regular PvP.
Been fooling around some with regen and with a close to 1k regen i do find it a bit lackluster.. How high do you need to push your regen stat to make it awsome? Guess you need a high HP pool aswell?
One way forward would be if cryptic could redesign our PvP armor or making a second set with defensive stats on it.
Anyway's thanks for the feedback and props for keeping the discussion friendly.
Oh hehe and btw, got hit for a 30k lashing today.
Anyone know if High viz is "working" in pvp aswell? Cuz have a hard time explaining math behind a 30k lashing blade when i have 50% mitigation. Guessing TR's dont hit for 60k lashing blades?
Yes race change would be awesome! I have a half elf DC (since I made it very early open beta and didn't know any better =/) that already has full gear and would love a race change option. I would probably go dwarf though honestly, 20% knock/repel immunity > 4% deflect IMO. Also the 2% crit from Str is nice.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
so a fix in your eyes would be to make dc unkillable in greens and not seen any dc in same gear have issue with gwf one on one
the issue with pvp full stop is u get green geared vs end game tr going get 1 shoted we need match making sustem with leader boards or some thing
-_-
Out of curiosity, why don't DCs make all the other classes unkillable? They're getting the full whack of the heals, after all...yet amazingly, they still seem to die from time to time.
The GF was also using three Encounters not 2: Knight's Challenge, Bull Charge and Frontline Surge and only used the At-Will Threatening Rush as his gap-closer.
gctrl's dodging skill makes it look like some of the Frontline Surges were not used, but he was just immune from the dodge.
Basically, you have no idea what you are talking about. That is a good GF with both the maximal build and Power selection to take out high mitigation targets. Even a GF with 30% Resistance Ignored, I suspect would do not do any better due to gctrl's high Deflect and Regen (though, I'd love to try, lol)!
Btw, gctrl, have any of your hctrl's faced Crapoussin of Mass Grave Aesthetics (a beast of a GF)?
Anyway, IMO the balance of this game is a few "rock, papper and scissors". If you are dying for GWFs, TRs and GFs on 1v1 I think you are doing something wrong.
1. healing is not effective in pvp unless a premade team with people protecting the DC
2. time to kill is overall way too low
3. there needs to be a cooldown on cc effects so you cant be chain stunned, many games have this Rift for one example
We've played them a few times and beat them. He's a good GF, but he doesnt hit harder than Hzarn or Steroidz so don't think he'd kill me 1v1. If he got the jump on me with Knights Challenge, crit on all of his hits and his daily was up its possible. But then again, any GF with a little armor pen using Knights Challenge could do that. I also would have to get unlucky and not deflect anything either. The thing that sucks about Knights Challenge is that its so easy to avoid being hit by a GF when you know its on you. You have to coordinate perfectly with someone else most of the time, like a CW, so that you're guaranteed some hit time on your target. And unless you give up Lunging Strike, using Knights Challenge limits your CC, which in Pre vs Pre's is not a good idea. I mean, you probably already know this from experience, but if you're using Lunging Strike, Bulls Charge/FS and Knights Challenge, and someone dodges your Bull Charge/FS, its pretty much game over, you're not going to kill them unless they get disabled by someone else.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
As I don't look forward to leveling one, and to me a DC is a class you bring out for pre vs pre or pve (yuck) that's all, not soloing or joining pugs for pvp.
It can be fun in PUG v PUG when no one has any idea what to do with you and you just can't die, but it gets tedious after a while.
No fix on Glory for DC, per se. You can still place highly in the match by capping nodes and successfully contesting, and chances are you will get some kills here and there, especially if you make a point to target nearly dead ones who think they're getting away, but there are no special rewards for healing.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
You probably already have an Oppressor spec. I am Renegade and I know immediately when I meet an Oppressor, my freeze ray is way more inefficient, it takes time to freeze stuff. There are other things as well, but you seem to be convinced already CW specs are somewhat performing at the same level so I leave it at that
Like I said before, you are sorely mistaken or do not have a level 60 DC if you think in any way shape or form the very minor differences between specs of a CW in PvP compare to the difference of a PvE-specced DC vs a PvP-specced DC.
Otherwise, I am not here to talk about CW's or share my specs on all my classes with you in a DC thread.