bsq2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited June 2013
Ok, Well this has been incredibly helpful.
My question is. I am packing my Grand Regent Set. So I am getting 20% Power out of my Defense. Defense currently at 5,620. Which is granting me 1,044 Power, to a total of 2,685. I am at 52.2% Damage resist.
Since I get more effective overall stats per point of defense, where now does the Defense start becoming less worthwhile? Once my power caps 3K? Or Would I still be better served reslotting some of my Def Enchants?
I got a bit lost in the numbers here... (amazing work btw!)
Just to be clear: ArPen is still useful above that 2200 threshold? I thought bosses have 24% resistance at best which you are trying to completely cancel and that's it.
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bsq2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited June 2013
While that's helpful. It doesn't as much answer the question of whether or not stacking Defense because I get both the dimished defense and the power, or if the math says slotting other Defensive stats gives me more.
150 Defense(at capped DR) + 30 Power VS. 150 Deflect, or 600 HP, etc.
Since I'm going for Max tank capacity, the offensive stats are less important overall, and I won't see a cap on any of them.
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loonbeMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
ferret09Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Because of Freehugs9's work, any armor pen above the values he listed is wasted... For pvp I would still say stack as much armor pen as you can.
Now that my dex properly works, I can move 500-700 armor pen into another stat. For PvE I'm switching over to power, since I determined crit to be not useful after 850, and completely useless past 1650. Also, I don't think recovery is that decent for GF.
"Last request - microtransactions for alllll old skins for zen/weapon appearance changes, 500 zen to make ur wep glow the color/enchant you want it... You will make more off that one item than any other zen item ever made." freshour
"beckylunatic" Gateway AH should have column headers to sort by buyout, bid, end time, quantity, etc. These disappeared iirc with the module launch. It's obnoxious.
The results I obtained also lead me to believe that anything over 3500 defense is wasted. 3500 Defense will give you 45% - 47.5% damage reduction, which is more than enough.
- Major Peachy Bottom * Gutbuster's Brigade -
"Last request - microtransactions for alllll old skins for zen/weapon appearance changes, 500 zen to make ur wep glow the color/enchant you want it... You will make more off that one item than any other zen item ever made." freshour
"beckylunatic" Gateway AH should have column headers to sort by buyout, bid, end time, quantity, etc. These disappeared iirc with the module launch. It's obnoxious.
Scroll down a bit more. Im not in game atm, but in the defensive section I think there is a stat called total damage resistance (or similar). SO basically your defense contributes to that number + your armor class gives total damage resitance.
0
fimconteMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
Hmm, how does HP compare to Deflect from a EHP standpoint?
Since deflect has such meh returns...
Fans Glory to the Gladiators,
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
Since HP has no diminishing Returns, but Deflect Rating gets DR very quickly.
Ie. Would it be better to stack HP in defence slots or Deflect Rating.
Well do the math for your gear. Is a rank # deflection more or less effective hp then a radiant? In most cases a rank 6 radiant comes out to ~2% increase in effective hp. Is your next 150 deflection worth more then that?
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
0
fimconteMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well do the math for your gear. Is a rank # deflection more or less effective hp then a radiant? In most cases a rank 6 radiant comes out to ~2% increase in effective hp. Is your next 150 deflection worth more then that?
No, and that's true for most people with full t1/t2 gear, so OP should change his recommendation that after 3500 def one should stack deflect.
Fans Glory to the Gladiators,
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
It's really not hat simple for most relevant tanking situations. EHP is nothing but a measure for how much damage can be taken in a single hit (or a quick series of hits) without dying. It does in no way reflect how well tanking can be sustained.
Take player A with 100 hit points and 0% damage reduction, 100 EHP.
Player B has 10 hit points and 90% damage reduction, also 100 EHP.
Each player takes 25 damage per second and are healed for 20 hp per second. Player A can tank said damage for 16 seconds before dying while player B can tank the same damage forever. Extreme examples but the fact is that increased defense/deflection will always be beneficial (as long as it actually increases damage reduction) however small the increase will be, while additional hit points will range from essential to totally worthless, depending on the situation the player expects to find him/herself in.
0
ruonthehuntMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 24Arc User
edited August 2013
I notice Power wasnt in this thread at all. Maybe im noobin it up and missng something but why is that?
I notice Power wasnt in this thread at all. Maybe im noobin it up and missng something but why is that?
Power can be stacked indefinitely, meaning it has no caps.
It's not really the best thing to stack, though. I'm not sure about the exact value, but you only get like 1 extra damage for every 26 power. It becomes much better if you have feats that increase the effectiveness of stacking power, though.
Ex: Reckless Attacker on GF's Conqueror Feat Tree or Deep Gash on GWF's Destroyer Feat Tree
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ruonthehuntMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 24Arc User
Power can be stacked indefinitely, meaning it has no caps.
It's not really the best thing to stack, though. I'm not sure about the exact value, but you only get like 1 extra damage for every 26 power. It becomes much better if you have feats that increase the effectiveness of stacking power, though.
Ex: Reckless Attacker on GF's Conqueror Feat Tree or Deep Gash on GWF's Destroyer Feat Tree
Ya if you are using the Stalwart Bulwark Se tand the Reckless Talent from the Conqueror tree Shouldn't you stack power over everything ?
Avg Damage without target's damage reduction =WeaponDamage*(1+Pow/2500)*(1-CritPercentage)+WeaponDamage*(1+Pow/2500)*CritPercentage*(1+CritSeverity)
We can't calculate the amount of damage you will do to any one target unless we know their armor. But, we can calculate the marginal value of each point of armor penetration because when gain 1% of AP, you do another 1% of damage from your strike, which we do know.
Now, as an example, let's use my GF:
Critical Strike Rating: 1225
Armor Penetration: 1732
Weapon Damage: 656
Critical Strike Severity: 75
Calculating the damage increase by gaining one point of power is easy. With my stats, 1 point of power gives me 0.297 damage.
Calculating the marginal value of 1 point of AP is easy. It is the difference of plugging in my armor penetration plus one into the resistance ignored formula and subtracting the value of plugging in my normal armor penetration, and take that difference. Then multiply this by your average weapon damage.
For me:
Crit Percentage: 0.05+0.03+0.228*(1225)^1.2/(10187+(1225)^1.2)=0.1758=17.58%
Ignored Resistance: 35.72*(1732^1.88)/(1225801+(1732^1.88))/100=0.1786=17.86%
Average Damage not counting targets mitigation: 656*(1+Pow/2500)*(1-0.1758)+656*(1+Pow/2500)*0.1758*(1+0.75)=3045.74
Damage increase from 1 point of power: 656*(1+(Pow+1)/2500)*(1-0.1758)+656*(1+(Pow+1)/2500)*0.1758*(1+0.75)-3045.74=0.297
Damage increase from 1 point of armor penetration: 3045*(35.72*((1732+1)^1.88)/(1225801+((1732+1)^1.88))/100-35.72*(1732^1.88)/(1225801+(1732^1.88))/100)=0.295
Assuming this calculation is correct, AP and Power are virtually identical. However, in my case, I get 7755 Power from the Reckless Attacker feat which can effectively double my power. If you do the calculations with more realistic numbers like 5000 Power, the damage increase remains at 0.297, however, the value of AP drops to 0.216. Armor penetration finally overtakes Power as the offensive stat of choice at about 7800 power.
And remember that when using reckless attacker, you shouldn't assume your power is what it is in your character sheet. In a real fight, I think a generous estimate would be to have your power multiplied by 1.75 instead of doubling since your guard is lower. This may sound bad, but remember that every point of power you get through gear and enchants gives you 1.75 times the power.
So in conclusion, I think that all the advice about getting to 22% AP and then stack power is total nonsense. Perhaps I have overlooked something or I have made a mistake. I would love to hear some feedback.
0
ruonthehuntMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 24Arc User
Avg Damage without target's damage reduction =WeaponDamage*(1+Pow/2500)*(1-CritPercentage)+WeaponDamage*(1+Pow/2500)*CritPercentage*(1+CritSeverity)
We can't calculate the amount of damage you will do to any one target unless we know their armor. But, we can calculate the marginal value of each point of armor penetration because when gain 1% of AP, you do another 1% of damage from your strike, which we do know.
Now, as an example, let's use my GF:
Critical Strike Rating: 1225
Armor Penetration: 1732
Weapon Damage: 656
Critical Strike Severity: 75
Calculating the damage increase by gaining one point of power is easy. With my stats, 1 point of power gives me 0.297 damage.
Calculating the marginal value of 1 point of AP is easy. It is the difference of plugging in my armor penetration plus one into the resistance ignored formula and subtracting the value of plugging in my normal armor penetration, and take that difference. Then multiply this by your average weapon damage.
For me:
Crit Percentage: 0.05+0.03+0.228*(1225)^1.2/(10187+(1225)^1.2)=0.1758=17.58%
Ignored Resistance: 35.72*(1732^1.88)/(1225801+(1732^1.88))/100=0.1786=17.86%
Average Damage not counting targets mitigation: 656*(1+Pow/2500)*(1-0.1758)+656*(1+Pow/2500)*0.1758*(1+0.75)=3045.74
Damage increase from 1 point of power: 656*(1+(Pow+1)/2500)*(1-0.1758)+656*(1+(Pow+1)/2500)*0.1758*(1+0.75)-3045.74=0.297
Damage increase from 1 point of armor penetration: 3045*(35.72*((1732+1)^1.88)/(1225801+((1732+1)^1.88))/100-35.72*(1732^1.88)/(1225801+(1732^1.88))/100)=0.295
Assuming this calculation is correct, AP and Power are virtually identical. However, in my case, I get 7755 Power from the Reckless Attacker feat which can effectively double my power. If you do the calculations with more realistic numbers like 5000 Power, the damage increase remains at 0.297, however, the value of AP drops to 0.216. Armor penetration finally overtakes Power as the offensive stat of choice at about 7800 power.
And remember that when using reckless attacker, you shouldn't assume your power is what it is in your character sheet. In a real fight, I think a generous estimate would be to have your power multiplied by 1.75 instead of doubling since your guard is lower. This may sound bad, but remember that every point of power you get through gear and enchants gives you 1.75 times the power.
So in conclusion, I think that all the advice about getting to 22% AP and then stack power is total nonsense. Perhaps I have overlooked something or I have made a mistake. I would love to hear some feedback.
Because of the Conqueror tree Recklass Attacker you should stack as much power as possible on your charachter to maxmise this benefit, then use a companion (Ioun Stone, cat, w/e) to push your Arm pen + dex bonus to 24% since the skill does not double buffs. This will maximise your DPS. Also crit to 1650. Have fun!
Critical Strike:
The observations made in the preview server lead me to believe that crit isn't something that should be stacked over 1650. Anything past a 20% crit rate just goes to waste. On average, armor penetration will be 2-3 times better than crit. Just don't ever go over 1650...
I'm confused by this. 1650 is not 20%, is it? I'm asking since I'm half-orc I need to optimize based on the percentage, not on the stat since I get an extra 5%, and want to make sure I get it correct.
And thanks for the awesome post! Incredibly useful.
I'm confused by this. 1650 is not 20%, is it? I'm asking since I'm half-orc I need to optimize based on the percentage, not on the stat since I get an extra 5%, and want to make sure I get it correct.
You get +5% extra damage on crit, not +5% chance to crit.
Because of the Conqueror tree Recklass Attacker you should stack as much power as possible on your charachter to maxmise this benefit, then use a companion (Ioun Stone, cat, w/e) to push your Arm pen + dex bonus to 24% since the skill does not double buffs. This will maximise your DPS. Also crit to 1650. Have fun!
This is exactly what I have been telling the other GFs i play with. RA basically adds +15% extra damage at 3k base power, +20% at 4k base power and +25% at 5k base power (estimated, too lazy to look up the actual numbers). It basically makes power the most viable offensive stat after you reached the armor penetration cap. You are also right about the crit. Stacking crit on a GF is just not synergizing. Guardian Fighters have the least crit chance of all classes as they have no ability score providing crit chance. There are also no mechanics that rely on crits, so building perfect vorpals would be a total waste. And without vorpal enchants stacking crit is not too viable anyway.
Not to derail, but I would provide much praise and public approval for the one who did this exact thing for GWF's.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
You get +5% extra damage on crit, not +5% chance to crit.
This is exactly what I have been telling the other GFs i play with. RA basically adds +15% extra damage at 3k base power, +20% at 4k base power and +25% at 5k base power (estimated, too lazy to look up the actual numbers). It basically makes power the most viable offensive stat after you reached the armor penetration cap. You are also right about the crit. Stacking crit on a GF is just not synergizing. Guardian Fighters have the least crit chance of all classes as they have no ability score providing crit chance. There are also no mechanics that rely on crits, so building perfect vorpals would be a total waste. And without vorpal enchants stacking crit is not too viable anyway.
You Sir are so wrong in every aspects of the GF. I never post on these forums but I shall leave this message to warn new possible or existent GFs to not follow those advices if they don't want to be horrible like 99,5% of GF's in PvP(Aka: Wood Splinter in the hand)
I'm not going to reveal my build here but if anyone actually needs GOOD advices to build a true DPS GF, feel free to PM me.
Oh and one general advice for GF; Power is worst stat.
Comments
My question is. I am packing my Grand Regent Set. So I am getting 20% Power out of my Defense. Defense currently at 5,620. Which is granting me 1,044 Power, to a total of 2,685. I am at 52.2% Damage resist.
Since I get more effective overall stats per point of defense, where now does the Defense start becoming less worthwhile? Once my power caps 3K? Or Would I still be better served reslotting some of my Def Enchants?
Just to be clear: ArPen is still useful above that 2200 threshold? I thought bosses have 24% resistance at best which you are trying to completely cancel and that's it.
150 Defense(at capped DR) + 30 Power VS. 150 Deflect, or 600 HP, etc.
Since I'm going for Max tank capacity, the offensive stats are less important overall, and I won't see a cap on any of them.
Now that my dex properly works, I can move 500-700 armor pen into another stat. For PvE I'm switching over to power, since I determined crit to be not useful after 850, and completely useless past 1650. Also, I don't think recovery is that decent for GF.
[SIGPIC]avalonguild.com[/SIGPIC]
4,269 Def gives me 36.1% Dmg Resist.?
"Last request - microtransactions for alllll old skins for zen/weapon appearance changes, 500 zen to make ur wep glow the color/enchant you want it... You will make more off that one item than any other zen item ever made." freshour
"beckylunatic" Gateway AH should have column headers to sort by buyout, bid, end time, quantity, etc. These disappeared iirc with the module launch. It's obnoxious.
According to the formula this is correct!
.4999*4269/(1643.6+4269) = 36.09%
Forgive if I am being dense here but where is OP getting 45-47%?
"Last request - microtransactions for alllll old skins for zen/weapon appearance changes, 500 zen to make ur wep glow the color/enchant you want it... You will make more off that one item than any other zen item ever made." freshour
"beckylunatic" Gateway AH should have column headers to sort by buyout, bid, end time, quantity, etc. These disappeared iirc with the module launch. It's obnoxious.
(Subscribed)
Scroll down a bit more. Im not in game atm, but in the defensive section I think there is a stat called total damage resistance (or similar). SO basically your defense contributes to that number + your armor class gives total damage resitance.
Since deflect has such meh returns...
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
TR:Anirul Corrino@Fimconte
GF:Irulan Corrino@Fimconte
Isn't every 1% deflect just .5% effective hp?
Yes, but I meant ratings.
Since HP has no diminishing Returns, but Deflect Rating gets DR very quickly.
Ie. Would it be better to stack HP in defence slots or Deflect Rating.
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
TR:Anirul Corrino@Fimconte
GF:Irulan Corrino@Fimconte
Well do the math for your gear. Is a rank # deflection more or less effective hp then a radiant? In most cases a rank 6 radiant comes out to ~2% increase in effective hp. Is your next 150 deflection worth more then that?
No, and that's true for most people with full t1/t2 gear, so OP should change his recommendation that after 3500 def one should stack deflect.
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
TR:Anirul Corrino@Fimconte
GF:Irulan Corrino@Fimconte
Take player A with 100 hit points and 0% damage reduction, 100 EHP.
Player B has 10 hit points and 90% damage reduction, also 100 EHP.
Each player takes 25 damage per second and are healed for 20 hp per second. Player A can tank said damage for 16 seconds before dying while player B can tank the same damage forever. Extreme examples but the fact is that increased defense/deflection will always be beneficial (as long as it actually increases damage reduction) however small the increase will be, while additional hit points will range from essential to totally worthless, depending on the situation the player expects to find him/herself in.
Power can be stacked indefinitely, meaning it has no caps.
It's not really the best thing to stack, though. I'm not sure about the exact value, but you only get like 1 extra damage for every 26 power. It becomes much better if you have feats that increase the effectiveness of stacking power, though.
Ex: Reckless Attacker on GF's Conqueror Feat Tree or Deep Gash on GWF's Destroyer Feat Tree
Ya if you are using the Stalwart Bulwark Se tand the Reckless Talent from the Conqueror tree Shouldn't you stack power over everything ?
I am using the following formulas, which seem pretty good, even if they are a little off. I will use my own stats as an example.
Crit Percentage: 0.05+Feats+0.228*(CritRating)^1.2/(10187+(CritRating)^1.2)
Resistance Ignored: 35.72*(AP^1.88)/(1225801+(AP^1.88))/100
Avg Damage without target's damage reduction =WeaponDamage*(1+Pow/2500)*(1-CritPercentage)+WeaponDamage*(1+Pow/2500)*CritPercentage*(1+CritSeverity)
We can't calculate the amount of damage you will do to any one target unless we know their armor. But, we can calculate the marginal value of each point of armor penetration because when gain 1% of AP, you do another 1% of damage from your strike, which we do know.
Now, as an example, let's use my GF:
Critical Strike Rating: 1225
Armor Penetration: 1732
Weapon Damage: 656
Critical Strike Severity: 75
Calculating the damage increase by gaining one point of power is easy. With my stats, 1 point of power gives me 0.297 damage.
Calculating the marginal value of 1 point of AP is easy. It is the difference of plugging in my armor penetration plus one into the resistance ignored formula and subtracting the value of plugging in my normal armor penetration, and take that difference. Then multiply this by your average weapon damage.
For me:
Crit Percentage: 0.05+0.03+0.228*(1225)^1.2/(10187+(1225)^1.2)=0.1758=17.58%
Ignored Resistance: 35.72*(1732^1.88)/(1225801+(1732^1.88))/100=0.1786=17.86%
Average Damage not counting targets mitigation: 656*(1+Pow/2500)*(1-0.1758)+656*(1+Pow/2500)*0.1758*(1+0.75)=3045.74
Damage increase from 1 point of power: 656*(1+(Pow+1)/2500)*(1-0.1758)+656*(1+(Pow+1)/2500)*0.1758*(1+0.75)-3045.74=0.297
Damage increase from 1 point of armor penetration: 3045*(35.72*((1732+1)^1.88)/(1225801+((1732+1)^1.88))/100-35.72*(1732^1.88)/(1225801+(1732^1.88))/100)=0.295
Assuming this calculation is correct, AP and Power are virtually identical. However, in my case, I get 7755 Power from the Reckless Attacker feat which can effectively double my power. If you do the calculations with more realistic numbers like 5000 Power, the damage increase remains at 0.297, however, the value of AP drops to 0.216. Armor penetration finally overtakes Power as the offensive stat of choice at about 7800 power.
And remember that when using reckless attacker, you shouldn't assume your power is what it is in your character sheet. In a real fight, I think a generous estimate would be to have your power multiplied by 1.75 instead of doubling since your guard is lower. This may sound bad, but remember that every point of power you get through gear and enchants gives you 1.75 times the power.
So in conclusion, I think that all the advice about getting to 22% AP and then stack power is total nonsense. Perhaps I have overlooked something or I have made a mistake. I would love to hear some feedback.
Because of the Conqueror tree Recklass Attacker you should stack as much power as possible on your charachter to maxmise this benefit, then use a companion (Ioun Stone, cat, w/e) to push your Arm pen + dex bonus to 24% since the skill does not double buffs. This will maximise your DPS. Also crit to 1650. Have fun!
I'm confused by this. 1650 is not 20%, is it? I'm asking since I'm half-orc I need to optimize based on the percentage, not on the stat since I get an extra 5%, and want to make sure I get it correct.
And thanks for the awesome post! Incredibly useful.
You get +5% extra damage on crit, not +5% chance to crit.
This is exactly what I have been telling the other GFs i play with. RA basically adds +15% extra damage at 3k base power, +20% at 4k base power and +25% at 5k base power (estimated, too lazy to look up the actual numbers). It basically makes power the most viable offensive stat after you reached the armor penetration cap. You are also right about the crit. Stacking crit on a GF is just not synergizing. Guardian Fighters have the least crit chance of all classes as they have no ability score providing crit chance. There are also no mechanics that rely on crits, so building perfect vorpals would be a total waste. And without vorpal enchants stacking crit is not too viable anyway.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
You Sir are so wrong in every aspects of the GF. I never post on these forums but I shall leave this message to warn new possible or existent GFs to not follow those advices if they don't want to be horrible like 99,5% of GF's in PvP(Aka: Wood Splinter in the hand)
I'm not going to reveal my build here but if anyone actually needs GOOD advices to build a true DPS GF, feel free to PM me.
Oh and one general advice for GF; Power is worst stat.