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Great Weapon Fighter PVE Critical Issues
hydro818
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
Since the necro'd thread that I started typing this up on got closed earlier I wanted to post this here since I did not get a chance on the other thread.
I want to preface this with the fact that I feel that I have a bit of experience on GWF and all classes in this game (7 level 60's with 2 GWF's, 2 GF's and one of each other class with a second rogue on the way). I have also ran and cleared every epic on every class many times with over 100 hours spent running T2's.
The GWF is currently is an absolutely broken and basically useless class in this game for endgame dungeon PVE at the moment (not getting in to PVP where we are definitely "OP" if built and geared correctly which my second GWF is made for).
The GWF does excel in AOE DPS in PVE for trash and trash only. Even then a control Wizard can do more DPS then us on larger pulls (6+ mobs) and if there is a cliff nearby for them to black hole and throw off the mobs our DPS is a complete waste.
In dungeons without many cliffs my 12.7K GS BIS equipment, Rank 7+ enchanted with Greater Plaguefire GWF will usually top the overall damage meter. The problem with this is that trash is not difficult in this game and the majority of the time their will be cliff for the mage to throw the mob off. So yes on the total overall damage meter we do fine if played and geared correctly.
Problem is when it comes to bosses. On bosses we have the lowest DPS of any class. I have ran every T2 multiple times with ACT running on a second screen and we are lucky to do 4-5K DPS single target if we are able to use all of are abilities. The current boss design though makes it so on at least 50%+ of the bosses out there we are not able to use our AOE abilities because we do not want or need all of the masses of adds to come to us. Not being able to use Weapon Master Strike or Slam in fear of pulling mobs off of the kiter or mage causes our single target DPS to drop to around 3K (Frozen Heart bosses, Karrandux first 2 bosses (red dragon is an easy joke), Dreadvault final boss, Castle Never Dracolich is the worst.... just to name a few).
Rogues are pulling 7-10k+ sustained DPS, Mages are pulling 5-6k+ (good dps builds), DPS GF's are pretty even to us single target but do not suffer from the same dps drop from not being able to use their AOE's and they can actually tank a boss (rarely needed but it does help at times). I am also pretty confident that a pure DPS cleric would be pretty close to a mage for DPS but I will not be testing this until Sun Elves.
Now we also have the issue where our trees have no synergy at all and the buffs and debuffs are not optimal. We could make good tanks if we could actually hold threat but as a pure Tank build our DPS is far to low to hold off of any other class attacking the mob you are trying to tank and besides slam we have no way of grabbing the masses of adds that spawn during bosses reliably (running around a big room trying to DPS everything while mobs keeps spawning does not work).
Below are the fundamental issues with each tree:
Instigator: A tree focused on AOE and bringing a buff to the group by granting combat advantage. The capstone for this build makes no sense. Why would a class who's DPS increases when they get hit (Determination) cause them to lose all benefits of the capstone (AP buff). Also with us being so AOE focused the second we cant use the WMS and Wicked Strike "twitch" attack our damage drops to terrible levels. It also doesn't help that our buffs to give combat advantage are all AOE's so now we cant even buff the group. Truthfully why we have to use an animation cancel attack to maximize DPS is silly to begin with.
Destroyer: Our more balanced DPS tree. Good AOE and single target better then Instigator and you don't have to rely on a "Twitch" attack. Once again though the tree is still a total mess. Why do I need to use an AOE attack every 4 seconds to maximize my DPS (this is also a problem for any GWF but the Destroyer tree enhances the WMS debuff further so its more of an impact on this tree)? Also with the capstone the determination increase is hardly noticeable and you are just better off standing in a red circle and getting a full bar. Furthermore why does the capstone promote using your encounter abilities instead of spamming you at wills? If I am getting a haste boost I should be spamming Sure Strike and WMS to maximize single target DPS instead of using abilities that get no benefit from added attack speed.
Sentinel: This tree is one of two things, either a next to impossible to kill PVP "Tank" or a terrible DPS high survivability PVE build. The tree is completely misleading though as the only threat boost talents do not give enough of an increase to actually hold threat on any mob if anyone else is even touching it. Also why does our mark ability give no threat? If I could actually mark a group of mobs and get the enhanced threat a GF gets I could actually hold agro on the trash/boss but instead it lets me do slightly more damage until I get hit and without block I have no way to avoid getting hit and dropping the marks. The capstone is probably our best of all 3 even though diminishing returns cause the extra defense to be negligible at best and the hot from Restoring Strike is hardly noticeable and stacking regen is a much better way to keep yourself healed up. So basically I do terribly damage, can hold no threat but hey at least I wont die right?.....
Fixes we need:
Instigator should stay AOE focused and needs the capstone reworked or thrown out and rebuilt. We should also have single target abilities that give our group the combat advantage buff in case we are unable to AOE.
Destroyer needs to become a single target DPS focused spec that is competitive with rogues and we should not need to use Slam and WMS to actually do competitive damage. This also will require the capstone to be reworked or thrown out and rebuilt.
Sentinel needs to either make our mark cause 100% additional threat and or make it so all of all attacks in general do 100% more threat. Restorative strike should do more healing in PVE (PVP balance is a concern here) and we really need a single target AOE taunt (like the GF Shield Stab). Also it would be helpful if our mark didn't fall off when we were under the determination buff.
We also in general need a high DPS single target daily. It is very silly that when slam is useable it will do more damage then Crescendo or Savage Advance even on a single mob. If the dungeon designs are going to continue to promote pushing off cliffs we also need a good knock back (or Roar to push back way further but this would not let us use it in our standard rotation) and Come and Get it should be re-worked to be closer to a black hole like ability. It would also be nice if all of our trees could help buff the group in someways and the 45% armor debuff from the sentinel tree should be base line and added in to an at-will.
This class has the potential to bring 3 unique styles of play to the table but currently none of them are optimized enough to warrant me wanting to bring either of my GWF's into a dungeon. It is truly sad that GWF cannot get in to PUG runs since any other class would be more useful. Personally even in guild runs I refuse to play my GWF and slow down my group or be a liability (accidental boss add pulling).
Please fix this class, since we are a striker we should do single target DPS as close to or equal with rogues and since we have a tanking tree we should actually be able to hold aggro and tank!
I really enjoy this game but currently warriors in general are not optimal to bring to dungeons as 2 CW's, 1-2 DC's, and 1-2 rogues make things so much faster and easier. There are occasions where a tank makes a boss easier which is the generally the only time a group will want a GF and not a GWF since the GWF has no reliable way to hold boss aggro with a rogue or a DPS CW on them.
I want to preface this with the fact that I feel that I have a bit of experience on GWF and all classes in this game (7 level 60's with 2 GWF's, 2 GF's and one of each other class with a second rogue on the way). I have also ran and cleared every epic on every class many times with over 100 hours spent running T2's.
The GWF is currently is an absolutely broken and basically useless class in this game for endgame dungeon PVE at the moment (not getting in to PVP where we are definitely "OP" if built and geared correctly which my second GWF is made for).
The GWF does excel in AOE DPS in PVE for trash and trash only. Even then a control Wizard can do more DPS then us on larger pulls (6+ mobs) and if there is a cliff nearby for them to black hole and throw off the mobs our DPS is a complete waste.
In dungeons without many cliffs my 12.7K GS BIS equipment, Rank 7+ enchanted with Greater Plaguefire GWF will usually top the overall damage meter. The problem with this is that trash is not difficult in this game and the majority of the time their will be cliff for the mage to throw the mob off. So yes on the total overall damage meter we do fine if played and geared correctly.
Problem is when it comes to bosses. On bosses we have the lowest DPS of any class. I have ran every T2 multiple times with ACT running on a second screen and we are lucky to do 4-5K DPS single target if we are able to use all of are abilities. The current boss design though makes it so on at least 50%+ of the bosses out there we are not able to use our AOE abilities because we do not want or need all of the masses of adds to come to us. Not being able to use Weapon Master Strike or Slam in fear of pulling mobs off of the kiter or mage causes our single target DPS to drop to around 3K (Frozen Heart bosses, Karrandux first 2 bosses (red dragon is an easy joke), Dreadvault final boss, Castle Never Dracolich is the worst.... just to name a few).
Rogues are pulling 7-10k+ sustained DPS, Mages are pulling 5-6k+ (good dps builds), DPS GF's are pretty even to us single target but do not suffer from the same dps drop from not being able to use their AOE's and they can actually tank a boss (rarely needed but it does help at times). I am also pretty confident that a pure DPS cleric would be pretty close to a mage for DPS but I will not be testing this until Sun Elves.
Now we also have the issue where our trees have no synergy at all and the buffs and debuffs are not optimal. We could make good tanks if we could actually hold threat but as a pure Tank build our DPS is far to low to hold off of any other class attacking the mob you are trying to tank and besides slam we have no way of grabbing the masses of adds that spawn during bosses reliably (running around a big room trying to DPS everything while mobs keeps spawning does not work).
Below are the fundamental issues with each tree:
Instigator: A tree focused on AOE and bringing a buff to the group by granting combat advantage. The capstone for this build makes no sense. Why would a class who's DPS increases when they get hit (Determination) cause them to lose all benefits of the capstone (AP buff). Also with us being so AOE focused the second we cant use the WMS and Wicked Strike "twitch" attack our damage drops to terrible levels. It also doesn't help that our buffs to give combat advantage are all AOE's so now we cant even buff the group. Truthfully why we have to use an animation cancel attack to maximize DPS is silly to begin with.
Destroyer: Our more balanced DPS tree. Good AOE and single target better then Instigator and you don't have to rely on a "Twitch" attack. Once again though the tree is still a total mess. Why do I need to use an AOE attack every 4 seconds to maximize my DPS (this is also a problem for any GWF but the Destroyer tree enhances the WMS debuff further so its more of an impact on this tree)? Also with the capstone the determination increase is hardly noticeable and you are just better off standing in a red circle and getting a full bar. Furthermore why does the capstone promote using your encounter abilities instead of spamming you at wills? If I am getting a haste boost I should be spamming Sure Strike and WMS to maximize single target DPS instead of using abilities that get no benefit from added attack speed.
Sentinel: This tree is one of two things, either a next to impossible to kill PVP "Tank" or a terrible DPS high survivability PVE build. The tree is completely misleading though as the only threat boost talents do not give enough of an increase to actually hold threat on any mob if anyone else is even touching it. Also why does our mark ability give no threat? If I could actually mark a group of mobs and get the enhanced threat a GF gets I could actually hold agro on the trash/boss but instead it lets me do slightly more damage until I get hit and without block I have no way to avoid getting hit and dropping the marks. The capstone is probably our best of all 3 even though diminishing returns cause the extra defense to be negligible at best and the hot from Restoring Strike is hardly noticeable and stacking regen is a much better way to keep yourself healed up. So basically I do terribly damage, can hold no threat but hey at least I wont die right?.....
Fixes we need:
Instigator should stay AOE focused and needs the capstone reworked or thrown out and rebuilt. We should also have single target abilities that give our group the combat advantage buff in case we are unable to AOE.
Destroyer needs to become a single target DPS focused spec that is competitive with rogues and we should not need to use Slam and WMS to actually do competitive damage. This also will require the capstone to be reworked or thrown out and rebuilt.
Sentinel needs to either make our mark cause 100% additional threat and or make it so all of all attacks in general do 100% more threat. Restorative strike should do more healing in PVE (PVP balance is a concern here) and we really need a single target AOE taunt (like the GF Shield Stab). Also it would be helpful if our mark didn't fall off when we were under the determination buff.
We also in general need a high DPS single target daily. It is very silly that when slam is useable it will do more damage then Crescendo or Savage Advance even on a single mob. If the dungeon designs are going to continue to promote pushing off cliffs we also need a good knock back (or Roar to push back way further but this would not let us use it in our standard rotation) and Come and Get it should be re-worked to be closer to a black hole like ability. It would also be nice if all of our trees could help buff the group in someways and the 45% armor debuff from the sentinel tree should be base line and added in to an at-will.
This class has the potential to bring 3 unique styles of play to the table but currently none of them are optimized enough to warrant me wanting to bring either of my GWF's into a dungeon. It is truly sad that GWF cannot get in to PUG runs since any other class would be more useful. Personally even in guild runs I refuse to play my GWF and slow down my group or be a liability (accidental boss add pulling).
Please fix this class, since we are a striker we should do single target DPS as close to or equal with rogues and since we have a tanking tree we should actually be able to hold aggro and tank!
I really enjoy this game but currently warriors in general are not optimal to bring to dungeons as 2 CW's, 1-2 DC's, and 1-2 rogues make things so much faster and easier. There are occasions where a tank makes a boss easier which is the generally the only time a group will want a GF and not a GWF since the GWF has no reliable way to hold boss aggro with a rogue or a DPS CW on them.
Post edited by hydro818 on
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Plus yes, they could use a bit more AoE damage, but considering that with the right skills (Aka steadfast determination+ full destroyer path) you can be almost Always in unstoppable (faster AoE Attacks), you can AoE debuff (WMS) and you can gain AP faster (Unstoppable Action+IBS)=faster slam, you can already do your job well enough.
If the game allows you to do it. Just fix the dungeon exploit. That's all to me.
While I agree that removing the knock offs would help we badly need more single target DPS, especially in situations where we can't AOE.
But if you buff the ST DPS, then you break the balance in PvP too. ST damage, for destroyer path, coupled with the high survivability, is good enough for PvP. You get more ST damage, you break the balance.
Must find a way to solve the PvE issue, while leaving the PvP efficiency untouched.
We can't hit as hard as rogues. It's their specialty. Our is a mix of dmage and survivability.
We must be AoE DPS in PvE (and so it's ok some more AoE damage), and DPS/ tank hybrids in PvP.
That's my point of view.
Funny side of the class is that you can basically make multiple effective builds. You're not limited to 1-2 standard builds. It's very flexible and can adapt to your playstyle easily.
Why shouldn't we hit as hard as rogues in PVE? Also in PVP and PVE a squishy non regen/defense/deflect stacking GWF will go down faster then a rogue. A pure DPS rogue has way more survivability than a pure DPS GWF. I can run around Spellplague on my non perma stealth build and solo all the spawning pits while the group catches up by using my defensive abilities. Between stealth, impossible to catch and bait and switch my rogue can and will easily out survive an Instigator or Destroyer GWF on trash or a boss. There is a reason rogues commonly tank the end dungeon bosses with 0 healing besides potions.
Crescendo is our single target daily.
Side note -
Bleed effect. Pretty much worthless. A crit at 5k power gives an extra 750 damage - over 5 seconds.
I would rather slot 15% damage increase to marked mobs.
Use daring shout. Act like superman.
Then again, the answer is in your statements. A rogue shouldn't out-defense, out-survive a GWF if he tanks. Something is too powerful in their defensive mechanics.
Plain and simple:
rogue= high dps, low survivability, more agile and fast, can run away, stealth and avoid damage this way. He tanks, he's dead.
GWF: medium-high DPS, high survivability, can't dodge or stealth. Slower than a rogue, but more resistant. AoE damage.
This is balanced. A rogue who can do tons of damage AND tank more than a GWF, is not.
So many broken mechanics in this game. I find a new one every day.
Which is exactly why I made this post. With my experience with this game I am hoping that a detailed explanation of what is truly wrong can get a developers eye on this. Most of the GWF dps posts are just whining without any detailed information.
While sentinel is fairly useless PvE wise.
Instigator's tree is lackluster.
I've done runs without rogues, and it truely does not feel any different from having a rogues in the party.
The only reason why I want a TR in CN over GWF is because he can pull all the adds before valindra's pet, which saves the party 2 minutes. If the pull ever gets fixed I would never have to get on my rogue again. A rogue will out dps anyone over a prolonged fight because of bleed constitute at least 30% of their total damage in a boss fight. If a fight takes longer than 10 min, a rogue will 100% out damage you, but if a fight takes less than 3 min? gwf comes neck in neck with rogues. If rogues does not have bleed, GWF already out dps rogues.
FYI I don't consider Pyrotechnic Bands BiS. Go ancients or go home, go blue belt or go home.
For frozen heart last boss ran with same group and multiple dds no wms or slam so that adds dont aggro dps group:
Rogue with BiS rank 7s:
3.5m damage(Greater Vorpal)
Me with BiS rank 7/8s:
3m damage(Greater Vorpal)
GWF#2 BiS rank 7/8s:
2.8m damage(Greater Vorpal)
GWF#3 BiS rank 7s:
2.5m damage(Greater Plaguefire)
DC BiS rank 8s:
500k damage(Greater Vorpal)
Not a single GWFs in my guild thats an official member complains about our damage in PvE, and most of us also have BiS rogues too. And besides what are you worried about because Module 1 will nerf the rogue so hard that end game guilds will stop running rogues, only weaker geared players will need a rogue for the single target.
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On topic of rogue survivablity. Truth is, they still don't have much aside from stealth. Sad thing is Bosses in this game are designed terribly, for christ sake I can tank dracolich on my cw if i wanted to. Its not because TRs can tank, its that all the classes can offtank fairly well, its another reason why Guardian Fighters are completely useless.
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On destroyer bleed Deep Gash.
The point of this skill isnt to do Mega loads of single target dps. if you spam enough WMS you have all the targets marked for bleed and they all bleeding for at least 750 damage over 5 secs if u have 5000 power.
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As for Daring shout, all marked targets for gwf recieve 8% more damage from you. with Powerful challenge the total damage increase is buffed to 23%. In counting the time that mark is applied 23% for 12 secs and 3 secs on cooldown/cast time (0.23*12 +0.00*3)/15, the overall dps increase for having the encounter + the feat is 18.4% overall dps boost. This is assuming daring shout targets are marked for the full duration.
But wait there is a catch, if marked targets hit you, you lose the mark, so whats the point of mark when the damage bonus is easily lost if u get damage by the add? then again you are using up 1 encounter slot for your feat + the fact that the aoe of Daring shout is terribly small.
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I only have one question for gwfs who are complaining about their damage. I would like to know their armor penetration, their con without campfire buffs, and their greatsword.
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Feel free to pm me on forums or Via ingame pm/mail
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
Race: Half Orc
23% Armor Pen without campfire and 24% with campfire (counting the 5-6% I receive from Con)
2 Piece Vigilant Warlord + 2 Piece Avatar of War
Ancient Castle Champions Greatsword (with Greater Plague Fire) and Sword Knot
3 X Ancient Slavemaster's Ring on Control (Counting Ion Stone)
1 X Ancient Fugitive's Necklace of Revolt
1 X Ancient Excorcist's Necklace of Blessings (Ion Stone)
1 X Icon of the Grand Templar (Ion Stone, one day it will be the CN priest Icon)
1 X Piercing Occult Belt (133 Crit, 133 Recovery and 110 Armor Pen) Blue Belt with Offense Slot
1 X Gemmed Exquisite Shirt
1 X Gemmed Exquisite Pants
5K power, 37-38% Crit, 3.6K Recovery, and 23-24% Armor Pen (variables are with and without campfire)
Besides the Icon on my Ion Stone not being the CN icon I am pretty certain this is basically BIS 12.7K GS. My GWF is my best geared character yet my 10.5K rogue and Wizard will out single target DPS him.... I really wonder how many people haven't used ACT to really see what our DPS is like on bosses.
Link to build (Powers could be tweaked slightly still but wont give any benefit except maxing Bravery for PVP which this GWF is not for):
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=iv3:3q573:5yrg,1x0io2i:60000:bzu0v:b0000&h=0
I use Destroyer and Steel Blitz for AOE swapping Destroyer out for Weapon Master on single target fights.
AOE packs is Not so Fast, Indomitable Battle Strike & Roar.
Single target Flourish, Takedown/Restoring Strike (if extra healing needed), Indomitable Battle Strike/Restoring Strike (if absolutely no way I can do any AOE).
I have respecced many many times on the PTR and currently find this spec to have all the powers I need for PVE and lets me respec just feats if I want to swap between instigator or destroyer.
Focused destroyer allows you to stack destroyer when you are dealing single target damage.
so its a 1.12 constant dps boost in boss fights.
I've also did a calculation in my guide that Destroyer with focus destroyer feat will still out dps weapon master under conditions of 40% crit and perfect vorpal.
is the party you generally run with equally geared(boss fights takes shorter amount of time).
Does your greater plaguefire come into account of buffing the TR's damage more than buffing your's?
I have personally not tested Gpfire, since im running greater vorpal at the moment and I come near rogue single target damage.(no gplague in party)
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
You have to stack crit as much as you can and go for greater/perfect vorpal, that means using weapon master, having a lot of DEX and high crit in general.
If you have a good rogue on your side im pretty sure the overall damage of you two on the boss is higher with greater plague fire though, so i dont really see the point...
Even if you top single dps charts you will be the underdog as a gwf for the common player, its really all about finding that 1 group/guild that knows better.
GWF is a beast especially with the survivability/cc immunity of unstoppable.
Bleed sucks. The tiny damage/threat from it is not worth it. If the bleeds stacked it would be ok, instead it just resets the timer.
I would rather mark targets for 15% damage then hit avalanche for aoe or crescendo for single target.
Never did make sense to get hit for determination yet our capstone (instigator) and marks go away IF we get hit. Dafaque?
Maxed daring shout applies mark for 12 seconds. if the marked target deals damage to you, they become unmarked. Feel free to test it yourself. Considering indomitable battle strike is the other way to mark targets. But IBS marks only mark targets for a very short amount of time.
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
I played with focused destroyer for a bit and while it was useful I just hated putting 5 points in something I would only get benefit with for such a small amount of time in a dungeon. I do agree though it is a nice talent and I might consider going back to it.
I am starting to wonder now how much of any impact Greater/Perfect Vorpal should make but I just don't see if making up for such a huge gap. Now the TR nerfs will change things a bit but when my rogue can spike to 14K single target DPS on a boss with dailys going I don't see how a GWF can even come close.
I would really enjoy it if someone actually had an ACT screenshot of this close to rogue DPS on a boss. I have tested it many times and our geared equally guild rogues absolutely destroy everyone in Damage/DPS single target.
If I'm running with a GWF in any dungeon i usually refrain from so much ledge pushing unless it's too out of control because I like to see the GWF have fun too, but that's just me.
ROFL
I'm sorry, but a GWF has less hp than a GF, less DPS than a TR, and I'm not even sure what you mean by heals like a cleric... You talking about restoring strike? Lol that heals for about 1500 once every 15 seconds. I'm pretty sure even the worst of clerics heal more than 100 hp/sec.
Stop trolling and go get your gear score higher than 6k.
See its exactly this, has anyone ever heard of a GWF solo'ing a boss. It's pretty common strategy with a rogue.
A GWF can solo a boss. If it's a destroyer build and you did your homeworks. Not as fast as a rogue. But i can crit bosses at a good rate, for 7-11k, and i'm with only 8,4 GS. Plus a GWF using slam and WMS, can really hurt mob crowds a lot. And with the right skills he can build up his APs quite fast. So during a boss fight, he can activate slam and slow down the adds, while still tanking the boss. And during the dungeon he can help clear crowds quite fast, hurting them and debuffing them. But yeah, this doesn't count a bit since you guys like to exploit dungeons, speedrunning them just by pushing the mobs out of the map.
I got the chance to run a lvl 60 dungeon (regular, not epic, but my gear is very basic, with no enchants at all). My build is able to use unstoppable and dailies a lot. And i ended up first in the damage dealt and taken (i tanked mobs a lot too), 2nd in kills (1st was the TR) and healing. Since i started the game, i've seen my GWF ending up, in both dungeons and skirmishes, Always in the first or second place when it comes to damage dealt and kills.
A GWF that knows how to use his class, deals tons of damage and can help the party a lot, in more ways than just DPS the boss. Sad thing is, his AoE ability is not required cause people is happy exploiting dungeons.
^This
I'm not too interested in the scoreboards, it's a nice to way to check if everybody is pulling their weight, but that's it. I'm interested what the class brings to the table. GWF's bring a massive debuff with Student of the Sword and/or Plaguefire and can hoard mobs for the CW to finish.
Thing is though, decent specced and played CW's don't use the table, they just pick everything up and throw if off a cliff. I don't think the problem is with the class, the problem is the party needs to punt mobs off in order to succeed.
Your seriously quoting an 8K GS GWF that has no real endgame experience?
The day I find a situation where GWF is worth bringing over a second Mage, TR or Cleric or even a single GF I will eat my words.
So far no one has been able to deny that we are just a liability and our primary use is to speed up trash. People have made claims that they can get close to rogues for boss damage but until I see a log I wont believe it along with most of the community.
Go try to get a GWF into a PUG dungeon daily and see if you can get a group, if you do get a group do you ever clear the boss? Not saying its the GWF's fault or anything but I am saying the good PUG's wont bring a PUG GWF because of all the issues in my post and generally the only time a GWF can get a pug group is when the group leader is inexperienced.
You guys should decide. Really. Cause if you go take a look in the 37k hp sentinel thread, there are more experienced players saying that the devs made the dungeons that way, and that it's not a problem. And there are other "experienced" players saying that a GWF or 2 GWFs in dungeons are useful. My experience is limited, it's true. But i've already been in some lvl 60 dungeons and 1 epic dungeons. And you know what, we made it with 0 deaths and fast.
Now, pick one of the 2:
- GWFs are unuseful for lvl 60 dungeons the way the game is right now, and then you should swarm the forums insulting the devs for PURPOSELY making a entire class unuseful for end-game PvE. But you don't, so i assume you're either focused on just taking advantage of the situation, or plain ignorant about the issue
- GWFs are useful for end-game dungeons and there's no issue.
Pick one. Since a part of experienced players say one thing, and another part say the opposite. Either way, it's your "experienced players" fault.
You're so good? Then why i come into this game after months of beta test, and such a big issue is not even mentioned or discussed everywhere in the forum? You've been playing for far more than me, and you couldn't help this game, which is in open beta, to get rid of such huge flaws?
So i may not be good enough to listen to what i say, but i don't see the experienced players be better than me. Else, you guys would've brought the issue to the devs enough times to make them fix it.
My main is cw since open beta and I have done spell(non gwf friendly bc you throw them all) to many time to remember no one has come close to my dps, I have done it with my gwf and I’m close to him in total damage in the end. In CN is a different story until 2 boss you are good if you play it legit no tr run on campfire. but after the cw push them so you loose dps .
My gs 11.6k bc i have 1.4k lifesteal.
And meeggtoast I like your guide but I run always with a gf , so daring shout is very good for not to have it.
This is the heart of the problem. There are no DPS clerics. Why? Because that is not their role. Could we do that? Probably. Would I like to be DPS only in a group? Sure, that'd be a lot more fun. But A CW is better AoE, and have good CC. A Rogue is better single target.
GWF's role is not to DPS the boss, just like the DC's isn't. I can't say whether or not your class is balanced because I've never played one and honestly, never ran with one in a dungeon consistently. But it seems like your sole argument is that you can't match rogue DPS on the boss. Well, neither can I. I am too busy running around like a chicken with it's head cut off, trying not to get 2-shot by pissant adds that ALL run at me, and all the while keep everyone else from dying. From what I understand, the GWF is mostly to deal with trash. A CW who CC powers slotted will not be able to do much AoE to them.
The GWF was the last class introduced in beta and had its ups and downs. Unfortunately it was nerfed hard in beta and I personally never had the time to test him much. What I did test was buggy and I was already bored of leveling characters that weren't going to go live at that time.
But that's the real problem what does a GWF bring that would make you want to bring one over any other class?
Trash DPS, would rather have another mage. Boss DPS, would rather have another rogue (or mage for debuffs). Tank, better bring a GF because GWF have no threat modifiers. Tough dungeon, grab another DC so people can play sloppier.
There is no place for GWF in PVE at the moment and this thread describes my opinion of ways to fix that.
This being the point a lot fo people don't seem to grasp.
The GWF as a solo class is pretty good, but in a Dungeon every other class has its role, and regardless of what a party needs there is always a better choice.
go and play one and see how great is the best class in game and have fun trying to find team for epics for 1 hour or more