Technological Anachronisms - Not Good

redneckronin · August 2013

Ok, just played through a quest and one thing that really stood out for me as "breaking immersion" was the presence of technological anachronisms.

What, you say?

Bales of straw.

Now, we have corn-sheafs in the asset list. This is appropriate to the baseline technological setting of the FR.

But bales are not, they are an industrial-revolution era invention.

The appropriate larger straw/hay element would be a hay-stack, as this would be in keeping with the technological setting of the FR.

Now, its not much I know, but its all about immersion, and these things tend to stick out like a sore thumb.

Furthermore, we could use hay-stacks very creatively if they were given a "volume" for reducing fall damage.

Just a few thoughts.

All The Best

izatar · August 2013

Dear redneckronin,

I am very concerned about technological anachronisms in my quest "Encounter at Sess'Innek Temple". Some people have actually complained! You seem very informed on the subject. Maybe you could point out some the the anachonisms in my quest?

All the Best
-Izatar

wuhsin · August 2013

This is D&D. You can put a spaceship, a robot, and a laser gun in your quest if you want. Gary Gygax did it. Are you saying Gary Gygax didn't know how to play D&D?

redneckronin · August 2013

wuhsin wrote: »

This is D&D. You can put a spaceship, a robot, and a laser gun in your quest if you want. Gary Gygax did it. Are you saying Gary Gygax didn't know how to play D&D?

Gary Gygax wasn't always right you know.

I'd have no problems with bales of straw if we had baling machines in there as well.

My point was about realism in following a process from start to finish for what is placed on the map.

Corn-sheafs can be done by hand (in fact I have done it, after cutting it with a long-scythe) so there's no anomaly there.

Compressed bales, of the kind found in the Foundry Assets are entirely an industrial thing, and we don't have the corresponding machinery in game to do that.

There are lots of things I could have added to my maps to fill them up.

But before I add anything to a map I ask myself a few questions: Why is it there? How did it get there? Who used it? What for? What are the consequences of it being there? Would it being there affect the story?

If I can't answer all of those to my satisfaction then it doesn't go in.

All The Best

lolsorhand · August 2013

I agree with you, Red - But this video popped into my head lol - Link

thalazar1 · August 2013

gnomish tech is the answer to all. in a dragon lance novel gnomes made it to the moon!

also magic or maybe....

Albums-Post-History-Channel-Alien-Guy-Meme-Generator-Aliens-98f63b.jpg

zbkolde · August 2013

But i thought the hay bales were so cool, took me back to my childhood days of taking walks through the hay fields and climbing the bales to lay back and watch the clouds go by. Though, now that you've mentioned it, they do seem a little out of place. I'm just gonna say that the dwarves built a baler of sorts. There, that's it. Dwarven ingenuity.

antonkyle · August 2013

thalazar1 wrote: »

gnomish tech is the answer to all. in a dragon lance novel gnomes made it to the moon!
also magic or maybe....

Haha, Aliens, great show but it's a shame it's all made up bull!

http://ancientaliensdebunked.com/ - worth a watch if your into all that.

zovya · August 2013

thalazar1 wrote: »

I'm not saying it was aliens..... but it was aliens.

tseran · August 2013

.... MAGIC!... and A Wizard Did It... >.>

But really, I had no idea. It will be unfortunately immersion breaking for some, I guess, but I'd venture that the majority are not up on their History of Hay.

redneckronin · August 2013

tseran wrote: »

.... MAGIC!... and A Wizard Did It... >.>

But really, I had no idea. It will be unfortunately immersion breaking for some, I guess, but I'd venture that the majority are not up on their History of Hay.

LOL Very true.

In some ways I've been very fortunate in life; I'm 43 years old but have had working access to farm technology going back hundreds of years (I've scythed hay with a long-scythe and hand made many a corn sheaf for example), I've worked in construction so know how buildings go together, and by training I'm an Archaeologist so I know how buildings used to go together, how they develop, and how they fall apart; how villages develop physically in to towns and so on. It is all extremely interesting.

But, and it is a BIG BUT, that also means that in games like this I see "mistakes" in how building assets work etc that many players would never see.

Furthermore, I think this is something that is in part exacerbated by the Atlantic divide. America is a young country, many of the centuries long processes that shaped the way the old market-towns all across Europe grew and expanded were all but bypassed in the municipal and urban development of the US. Now please, don't thinks that's me having a pop at the US, it isn't.

The whole genre of fantasy is in part predicated on an "old world" model of urban development going back to the Iron-Age and beyond and it is, I think, something that New World game designers often overlook.

That said games companies do get that aspect right as well, Skyrim being one of the most obvious examples.

For me things like this are all about "details"; get the details right and the most of the rest falls in to place by itself.

But, I guess I am in a very tiny minority here.

All The Best

tseran · August 2013

redneckronin wrote: »

For me things like this are all about "details"; get the details right and the most of the rest falls in to place by itself.

Nothing wrong with that - I can appreciate wanting to have a more immersive experience.
And I think you maybe have just made a few of us smarter! (Now to choose which thing to forget to make room for this knew knowledge!)

Anyway, I will sign this petition for a greater awareness of Hay and for Hay-Stack assets!
/signed

ambitionxp · August 2013

I had this pointed out to me in my quest as well. I had a "box of matches" that I've since changed to "box of sulfuric matches". Not sure if that fixes the anachronism issue but it's better than nothing. I need something that will ignite oil, but I lack expertise on the matter.

It's hard to avoid them without being a history/technology buff.

antonkyle · August 2013

ambitionxp wrote: »

I had this pointed out to me in my quest as well. I had a "box of matches" that I've since changed to "box of sulfuric matches". Not sure if that fixes the anachronism issue but it's better than nothing. I need something that will ignite oil, but I lack expertise on the matter.

It's hard to avoid them without being a history/technology buff.

flint and tinder

redneckronin · August 2013

antonkyle wrote: »

flint and tinder

Or you could go even more ancient / primitive and use a fire-pouch; used from the neolithic period in the "old world" right through to just a few hundred years ago in the new world.

A leather pouch with a very slow "burning" (smouldering really) fungus in it. The fungus is lit, then partially starved of oxygen so it can only smoulder. Wrapped in a piece of leather, then surrounded by dry grass, then place in a leather pouch. To start a fire you expose the fungus to air, and use the dry grass as tinder.

Could even add in a mini quest to collect the fungus, dry grass and small pouch.

PS: Yeah, I know, I'm sad.

All The Best

antonkyle · August 2013

redneckronin wrote: »

Or you could go even more ancient / primitive and use a fire-pouch; used from the neolithic period in the "old world" right through to just a few hundred years ago in the new world.

A leather pouch with a very slow "burning" (smouldering really) fungus in it. The fungus is lit, then partially starved of oxygen so it can only smoulder. Wrapped in a piece of leather, then surrounded by dry grass, then place in a leather pouch. To start a fire you expose the fungus to air, and use the dry grass as tinder.

Could even add in a mini quest to collect the fungus, dry grass and small pouch.

PS: Yeah, I know, I'm sad.

All The Best

Nothing sad about an interest in History, now I know who to ask when needing info on a fire-pouch or Hay bale....

And probably anything else.

Did that lighting work for you? Problem was it would have lit all the caves.

redneckronin · August 2013

antonkyle wrote: »

Did that lighting work for you? Problem was it would have lit all the caves.

Kind of. I played about with a bit and got something I was happy with. As its only one room, a cave added in to an extension to the big tomb from part 3 of my campaign, it didn't need to be 100% perfect, even more so as the room really is only a "pass through" rather than a major quest area. It did affect the lighting through the rest of the map, but as I wanted the tomb to feel like it had been opened to nature and nature was taking it back it worked really well beyond the actual cave room I originally wanted it for.

So many thanks for the pointers.

Have temporarily put my current projects on hold though, am waiting to see what the update later this month brings; and I need a bit of down-time as well, was starting burn-out I think.

All The Best

karitr · August 2013

Well cheers for that ronin.

I've just been playing in a barn full of hay bales and guess who I thought about :mad::rolleyes::D

redneckronin · August 2013

karitr wrote: »

Well cheers for that ronin.

I've just been playing in a barn full of hay bales and guess who I thought about :mad::rolleyes::D

Erm, ok, right.

A lady on the interwebz thought about me while playing in the hay!!!!

Not sure whether to be flattered, embarrassed or scared. LOL

All The Best

karitr · August 2013

Remorseful is what I was looking for

antonkyle · August 2013

redneckronin wrote: »

Kind of. I played about with a bit and got something I was happy with. As its only one room, a cave added in to an extension to the big tomb from part 3 of my campaign, it didn't need to be 100% perfect, even more so as the room really is only a "pass through" rather than a major quest area. It did affect the lighting through the rest of the map, but as I wanted the tomb to feel like it had been opened to nature and nature was taking it back it worked really well beyond the actual cave room I originally wanted it for.

So many thanks for the pointers.

Have temporarily put my current projects on hold though, am waiting to see what the update later this month brings; and I need a bit of down-time as well, was starting burn-out I think.

All The Best

I'm glad it was helpful

I know what you mean about the update. I've been building but holding off putting much detail in. Will be much better with 3d edit functions. I have changed my part 2 and 3 around so I can make use of all the elf stuff that will be coming. Can't wait.

thalazar1 · August 2013

ambitionxp wrote: »

I had this pointed out to me in my quest as well. I had a "box of matches" that I've since changed to "box of sulfuric matches". Not sure if that fixes the anachronism issue but it's better than nothing. I need something that will ignite oil, but I lack expertise on the matter.

It's hard to avoid them without being a history/technology buff.

D&D has tindertwig which is an alchemical match
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Tindertwig

there is alot in D&D that was not in our history at the same time periods because it is a made up world. most of the time some thing is explained as alchemical, magic, dwarvish or gnomish tech (famous for inventing things humans never conceive in that world but exists in a our modern world)

only problem with gnomish tech depending on the lore is it often fails epically.

leinahtanwc · August 2013

You should play Might and Magic... It is totally up your alley....

If anyone gets this, kudos to you!

Technological Anachronisms - Not Good

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