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Not Doing Dungeon properly
vorcengetrix
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7 Arc User
I think the rewards at the end of dungeon should depend on the amount of the dungeon you do. This is easy enough to implement I reckon as you could have a party kill count and the rewards are based on the amount you do. Boss adds would not be included (I suppose you could reset the counter then). I find it frustrating that players expect parties to do all the exploits even to the point of kicking players who are not aware of these.
While they could still do this the rewards should be lower....
Personally it is making the rewards to easy to get (people saying 5 mins for first boss in CN) and thus making them less worth it. Unless we just want a series of boss fights and item drops which I think will eventually ruin the game.
maybe even add bonus rewards to 100% kill count (more seals/enchants etc..)
I have no idea if this is the norm for MMO's it was not on the ones I have played in the past.
While they could still do this the rewards should be lower....
Personally it is making the rewards to easy to get (people saying 5 mins for first boss in CN) and thus making them less worth it. Unless we just want a series of boss fights and item drops which I think will eventually ruin the game.
maybe even add bonus rewards to 100% kill count (more seals/enchants etc..)
I have no idea if this is the norm for MMO's it was not on the ones I have played in the past.
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[EX]Officer - Order of the Raven
This is the main issue right here. While the company can fix exploits, its the community of players who needs to be straightened out the most - and while exploit fixes are good, the community wont just automagically start acting right because one fix went into place.
I think a reward based on accomplishments in the entire dungeon, rather than simply killing the boss(es) is a great idea.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Bingo, thats true D&D
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Seals? are worthless.
Enchants? not worth the time to kill every single mob just to get a few extra enchants.
Better try harder.
It's not rocket science. It's not an entire game, it's just some in-game content. It's inline with the stuff we make as Foundry quest authors. They get to use less neutered tools than we do, so it's really sloppy content creation and quality assurance. Not sure if it's the fault of the devs, QA, or project management/execs, but it's sloppy.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
Really? It is OBVIOUS that the designers of CN wanted players to figure out short cuts. It is just to plain obvious that there is NO WAY they could NOT have known about these short cuts. The ONLY thing they left out was a sign that says, "short cut this way.."
I think if they actually were to fix all the short cuts but they kept the monsters with the same HP and didn't increase player damage then dungeon running will become boring much faster than it currently is. The ONLY saving grace to players still running dungeons is that there are short cuts.
Now bind this with the idea of BoP items and the game will surely die. I don't want it to die and it sounds like I am complaining about the wrong thing but seriously, dungeons take too long for very little reward and BoP items will make dungeon runs worthless.
Then expect everyone to use the shortcuts. There's really no major reason to run through trash mobs and take no shortcuts. The OP said the doing DD "properly". That's a laugh, and even more so if you believe the shortcuts are intentional. I'm not disagreeing with you.
The sloppy content creation is allowing shortcuts and exploits. If you put them in there or let them slip through people will use them. Don't punish the players, punish the sloppy development.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
Without knowing the true intentions of Cryptic, let's take CN for example. You have to have a TR or GWF that knows the run to the first boss *and* can pull it off. I look at this as a skill that rogue's especially bring to the table. Throughout MMO's people always complain about roles not being used or they could be used in a more fun way. Well... the challenge of stealthing to the boss seems like a suitably good candidate for this. Now, do I think groups should be able to get 30+ coins out of each GG Fardelver's... probably not. Do I think that having everyone run like lemmings to the campfire is dumb, yeah, this is not a smart use of roles.
The other frustration is that people don't take the time to show others, or they think they're more knowledgeable than they really are. We were all noobs once, let's not forget that. Groups like that assume everyone is in the know and the patience level with most pug's is below zero. I mean, you wait 3 seconds to long to queue for Fardelver's GG and people start crawling up your posterior. Then you have pugs who *think* they know what's up but it just all devolves into dying over and over and over and that's no fun either.
This is a mindset problem not a dev problem, nor a game-based issue, a mindset problem. Somehow today players think that only the end game is the "real game" but thats not true. When you ignore the levels before you what is the point?Why did you build a character that is immune to poison rather than fire? Because you were tired of the DM's poison critters knocking you unconscious.
Why did you spend so many points in dex? Because you wanted to be able to backflip over the enemies. The journey is there to be the game, not to lead up to it. Your character should be shaped by what you think might be cool not by a chart you found online. DnD is game where imagination and doing "odd things" with your characters is not only key, but make it fun.
Yes you might not play DnD but how long has cheating been condoned? Did you ever cheat in NwN and the DM just excused it? I dont know about you but not with me. My daddy woulda had my hide for cheating not only in normal games but in video games also. Screen hacking in Halo, cheatcodes on Fate, duplicating items in Diablo, it just wasn't allowed and was looked down upon. So why and when did it go from being shameful to a "necessary thing".
I know it isnt just in Neverwinter and that exploits need to be fixed, but so does the mindset of players. When all the players want to do is cheat there way to the top rather than stop sniff the flowers and kill the ogres where is the DnD. Yes I know though, you avoided a boss in PnP DnD, or a group of baddies or jumped off a tower and swan-dived into a moat to avoid certain death. I understand that is what happens. It isnt that you do not try to avoid enemies or escape death, it is that you should not try to cheat your way through the game.
So overall although things need fixin it is the players fault. This entitled cheat-to-win mindset that some players have is causing issues with the community. So lets shape up people. Its time to show what you really can do. You say you can beat CN but can you defeat all of it? or even just make it through without exploits? I challenge this community to rise up and be better. To not use or look for exploits, to help each other, to avoid cheaters, and to report all bugs, exploits, and cheats with the /reportbug feature.
Anyone still searching for guilds you can check out HCG Hardcore Christian Gamers.
NW FAQ | HCG NW Host Site
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Another key problem is trash mobs never drop any nice meaningful loot. If common, uncommon, rare, and epic crafting materials had a chance to drop (with a very low chance on the rare/epic end) maybe there would be more incentive not to skip any mobs. Same goes for chests to reward people who explore. Also I believe greater ID scrolls should at least have a chance to drop in epic dungeons. I might ID stuff if I have the scrolls, but I'm certainly not going to pay AD for them to ID all the many many green items I get.
About gear drops in epics, if say cloak tower and cragmire crypts were the only epics to drop green level 60 gear, and then the rest of T1's could have a small chance to drop the blue unidentified stuff. And for T2's maybe add some purple unidentified stuff (especially rings and belts). Then increase boss drops but take gear out of the DD chest and make the DD chest give some amount of rough AD (amount depending on the dungeon difficulty) to replace the item but keep the seals and shard. These changes I feel would make dungeons worth running outside of dungeon delve times but still worth running during the delves and help with people's annoyance of picking up green gear all the time.
Also I feel that gold drops need to be increased somewhat to compensate for not having green unidentified items to sell.
@deathssickle
Didn't see your post until after I posted mine, but you do raise a good point. It seems people these days try to cheat their way through everything. The mindset of the players is important to consider, It seems most game these days someone tries to hack or cheat their way through.
So because I don't have 3 hours to sit through an endless sea of trash in CN, which the LFG screen says takes only 1.5 hours, I am an entitled cheater?
I used to play PnP DnD a lot actually. Of course you killed all enemies and searched every rock, because enemies provided xp and there was valuable loot to be found. If there was a way to bypass the enemies and then hit a switch causing a trap to kill them all with 0 effort you bet the party would choose that too.
You can't compare the two. If you were told by the DM that the dragon in this dungeon dropped 10,000 gold for each party member, but that all of the enemies leading up to it gave no xp and only droppped a couple copper each would you not try to find a shortcut to the dragon? Every PnP DnD player would.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Very true. And that's because it's more of an MMO than a D&D game.
I love that sort of D&D gameplay and that's why I enjoyed DDO: for the dungeon crawl feeling of it. Waiting in the shadows for enemies to pass and then stab them in the back. Searching for and disabling traps, etc.
But Neverwinter unfortunately is not geared towards this. Instead they opted for an action-style RPG feeling that's also an MMO. Disabling traps really doesn't give you anything. Traps do don't much damage either. Locked doors just don't really exist in Neverwinter at the same level you had in DDO. So fact is Neverwinter is more of an MMO and action RPG than it ever is a D&D game.
Your attempt to put the blame on the player is lame in the least and downright insulting at worst.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
I've been a DM for longer than most of the people playing this game have been alive (started in 1983) and I have to say you're completely off base on most of this. I do agree that "winning" doesn't apply in PnP sessions, but figuring out ways around obstacles that you don't have to fight has always been a strong part of the game. Hell, that was one of the major reasons to bring a thief so he/she could scout out a good route for their party that avoided as much danger as you can. Now, I typically ran and played in campaigns that if your character died they were dead in most cases.
In this game its obvious that SOME of the short cuts are indeed intended. The Primordial Temple and CN for example both have very clear alternate paths with rewards that are only reachable from those alternate paths. Having said that, there are clearly things that aren't intended and are exploits that should be fixed. Having the rogue open up camp sites for the party shouldn't work, though to be honest in most cases the whole party can simply run and die at the camp site in most cases.
Anyone still searching for guilds you can check out HCG Hardcore Christian Gamers.
NW FAQ | HCG NW Host Site
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Im not saying you dont avoid things, Im saying you dont cheat around things.
Anyone still searching for guilds you can check out HCG Hardcore Christian Gamers.
NW FAQ | HCG NW Host Site
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Adding these kinds of "legit shortcuts" would be awesome but at the same time they should add the amount of gold or useful items that the adds drop. Maybe even make the harder mobs drop just a bit of rough AD? This way there is a choice of either killing everything and getting meaningful drops or using the groups skills and experience to skip and be a tad faster.
Edit: bleh.. Seems like I should have read some of the posts that I just skimmed through.
Exactly, there are "secret paths" then there is cheating. If it is obviously meant to be there I have no issue, but when someone runs around the map by jumping into the lava or something it is not something I personally condone.
Anyone still searching for guilds you can check out HCG Hardcore Christian Gamers.
NW FAQ | HCG NW Host Site
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Castle Never? I hate it nowadays. It's a completely stupid dungeon that 1) takes 3h to clear 2) can be skipped in around 1,5h 3) requires awesome CWs to push everything off at the last boss, which means that if the CWs don't handle it, you won't be finishing it. The two first tries that I had there we actually killed the final boss. The next ~15? Most were easy clears/skips through the dungeon and then a total disaster at the dracolich. Three hours to clear and then realize you have no chance to finish because of the CWs?
I admit, adding the legit shortcuts would take time. I'm a programmer myself. Adding better loot for adds? As they say in the world of D&D: easy as goblin pie. You already have them dropping loot so why not adjust it?
This, and how long dungeon trash take to kill, are the real problem. The short cuts, and people's desire to use them, are so strong because there is no benefit to actually clearing the trash beyond getting to the boss.
- suiciding npcs/bosses
- doing acrobatics, jumping through holes, under the map or stuff like that
- dying to some place to skip 20 mins of content
- using stealth to unlock stuff without clearing the way
- abusing player-friendly aggro mechanics and NPC AI (they go back to their original location after some time chasing you and go away as soon as you die)
It's not ok/not even fun. And no, it's not because of the T2 drop rate, if the drop rate were higher, the game would be a dead place. Having a goal to achieve is what keep people playing. It's not because of supposedly low rewards for killing mobs. Enchantments, blue gear, crafting materials, are valuable. It's just greed and blatant stinginess when you say it's not enough. If you don't want to pay for the game, it's ok, it doesn't mean you're entitled to cheat and ruin the fun of people enjoying the combat mechanics.
You think it's boring? Then do something else. Why do you want rewards for something you don't even play? Yesterday, I had an opportunity to discuss with a cheating addict during a dungeon (as usual, an exploit attempt taking way longer than a legit run). I asked him why he was trying to get T2 gear or diamonds to skip every single fight. I added that level 58 greens were enough to do what he was doing. The only answer i got was "r*tard". I think it's quite obvious such people don't enjoy the game but keep playing it for some odd reasons. Maybe guild, competition, mental sanity, whatever. But it's definitely not good. It's just killing the game slowly.
I quite agree. I actually got told I was silly for wanting to cross through the shadowfell in castle never rather then making some crazy skip using jumping.
-suiciding is really only widely used in karru, which I peronally would not run otherwise b/c arm pieces are so cheap
-doing acrobatics: Staple part of DnD, climbing a wall, jumping over a pit, crossing hard to cross terrain requires a good and sometimes amazing acrobatics roll, but it usually results in skipping through an area that would have taken much longer to fight through.
-dying: again karru, no one is going to spend hours there...
-Using stealth to unlock stuff without clearing the way: Seriously? is this not one of the absolute staple things a DnD rogue does?
-agro mechanics: so retreating is not an option? Fight mob to the death or you're a cheater?
Just because you don't personally like something doesn't mean it wasn't intended to be in the game. Time reducing tactics are very helpful, especially to those of us that don't have 8 hours a day to dedicate to the game.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I think it is funny that the complainers want to FORCE other players to take 14 hours to clear a dungeon because that to them is what they want to do, they want to take all day long to clear one dungeon for crappy loot drops. Since others want a quick way they come to the forums to complain that players are clearing dungeons too fast.
How about this. Let the players who want to skip stuff, skip stuff and if you don't want to skip stuff then don't run with skippers.
Exploring every nook and cranny...
Yeah...that is awesome the first couple times. After that...not so much. Rose colored glasses folks. Go ahead and run just one dungeon 30+ times. Let me know after that if you want to kill every **** add/trash/spawn that drops terrible loot.
I can go on a 1 hour farming session and make more gold, enchants, items than I can in a 3 hour dungeon.
I agree but the players are only this way because of the flawed dungeon design... I mean the content is pretty unplayable unless people use exploits like add punting...
What they need to do, is retune the dungeons to make them 1) shorter 2) WAY less adds and WAY less trash. 3) Remove Add punting in general - you can keep it as a mechanic for a select fights if you want.. but make it more fun too - like TONS of slower very hard hitting mobs with giant HP pools (oh what thats what it currently is)....
But seriously... try doing a fight that DOESNT revolve around punting adds... Heck most boss fights like FH, you just have 1 person kite all the adds, everyone DPS down the boss then typically dies and bam your done... Shouldnt the mechanics be harder?