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Is a DPS cleric viable as DPS role in groups?

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  • kattefjaeskattefjaes Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2,270 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    morsitans wrote: »
    And I'm still not sure why you're doing all the damage when your buffs are partywide, nor am I sure where the heals are coming from in your three-man assault squad.

    I think the technical term starts with "b" and ends with "ollocks", mostly. Reminds me of johnygwapo's Oppressor CW thread- big on claims and angry ranting, short on lucid detail, proof or reproducibility.
  • zephryl1zephryl1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 220 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    lerapiso wrote: »
    First, i think you played with suckers DCs.
    Second, I never said it's the best choice, my main is a full healer DC he will stay my main, I play my DPS alt when needed.
    But you say that dps DC is useless and you haven't even played it ... people have to know the truth

    Probably, but that's what you get when to try to DPS with a support class.
    You claimed it to be the best in party damage, which it isn't.

    I'm not saying it's useless, I'm saying it's pointless. A Healer Cleric can do most of what your "DPS Cleric" does, and doesn't take up an extra party slot. Getting another TR or CW = faster runs.

    Edit:
    Also, I haven't played it for the same reason I haven't played a Control TR. It's just not the best way to play. (Although, your build probably does better than mine in PvP, but considering how broken PvP is that's not terribly important)
  • grifterecgrifterec Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 82
    edited July 2013
    On my offspec cleric (10.5k GS w/ vorpal) i do some pretty serious damage, top of charts? maybe if the other dps is ****. But my SB spam with Linked spirit and foresight would be enough to bring to a party even without any dps (both stack with the actual cleric)
  • rebel230rebel230 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    what would be a dps/ hybrid build then?
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    The reason an attacker cleric ("hybrid DPS" according to some, the term is inaccurate imo) works is because the cleric has a several powers which require him to attack things. This does not mean that the cleric should be aiming for top DPS, since most of these attacks either heal for a percent of the damage done or reduce the target's defense making it so everyone gets a damage bonus - in the end what you're aiming for is a marked increase in killing speed, higher total damage done for everyone, higher AP point generation (for dailies like Divine Armor) and higher healing (for Repurpose Soul, Forgemaster's Flame, etc). This is what the Virtuous cleric is all about. Obviously you will sometimes top DPS in pugs but in a setting where everyone knows their class, you topping the DPS charts should be an indicator that something is horribly wrong. Or you probably just used tabbed Searing Light on a ridiculous amount of mobs during a CW's AS.

    A cleric build which aims to DPS at the expense of core healing powers/cleric debuffs is a completely different animal, and is currently as unsupported as a pure frost CW or a pure control TR. Such a build should only ever be used for trolling people.
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • oronessoroness Member Posts: 378 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I ROFL at the word "hybrid" in this MMO and at those so fond of using it.
    Can you be a cleric-wizard? a wizard-rogue? No. Then you can't be hybrid.
    You can be either devoted cleric or control wizard. Can't be both at the same time.

    So can anyone care to explain to me what a hybric cleric is? :rolleyes:

    IMO the default NW cleric is already a support+dps class. I'm pretty sure you can't go around just spamming soothing light, HW, Bastion and AS without dealing damage. Otherwise you would end up with zero AP and zero DP.
    I'm also pretty sure you can't run around with zero healing spells calling yourself a dps+support cleric.

    People wants to name their clerics somehow to make them seem different. It's not like you can be very creative building your character in this game. You can get every useful power to III and most of the feats don't directly affect the performance of the core abilities of a class. Which means that a so-called DPS cleric slotting AS on his enocunter bar will heal the same as a so-called "support cleric".


    Funny.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I want this class in NW. :o
  • fondlezfondlez Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    oroness wrote: »
    I ROFL at the word "hybrid" in this MMO and at those so fond of using it.

    Don't be so naive. Or perhaps you really do not play NW any more, as per your sig, so do not have a clue how much has changed...

    1. The days of having only AShield as your "heal" in endgame PvE and then anything else on your bars for fun are LONG gone and are never coming back. The dev's made sure of that. If you are a solo DC, you are now a healbot, i.e. every single spell you have, particularly Encounters supports some form of healing or damage reduction and your whole build is mostly or only oriented towards such output.

    2. To optimize DPS is a whole different ball game. You would slot non-healer spells, such as Daunting Light, Searing Light, Divine Glow, Prophecy of Doom and Break the Spirit. With the right build, you may overlap with Sunburst to proc crits. You would wear gear like dps High Prophet armor (good luck getting the Bound feet) and Grand Templar. You would always have Holy Fervor or Terrifying Insight and possibly Healer's Lore. Your At-Wills would include Lance of Faith. You would have heroic feats that optimize for crit and AP while dropping survivability, extra healing output and lower priority for Divine Power. Most of your paragons would be in Virtuous tree instead of Faithful tree. You may even cycle Power combos like Guardian of Faith or Divine Armor when they are not needed just to proc damage bonuses. Your gear is likely to slot for Armor Penetration just to raise your own personal dps.

    How does that sound like any healer you have heard of? Exactly...

    So, a "hybrid" in this sense is somewhere between those two extremes and would be "optimal" and, arguably (whole point of this thread) only viable in premade groups with a second DC who is the main healer.
  • zephryl1zephryl1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 220 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    A true, proper, Hybrid or DPS build on a Cleric is, IMO, not feasible right now.

    This is purely because of the Feats we have to choose from. There aren't enough to make a proper Hybrid/DPS build, and the ones that are there are generally just poor in comparison to the Feats a Healing build would pick.

    Plus the Three End-of-Tree feats are all rubbish. No decent build uses any of them, and as far as I'm aware we're the only class that doesn't have at least one worth getting.
  • justkazjustkaz Member Posts: 67
    edited July 2013
    zephryl1 wrote: »
    Plus the Three End-of-Tree feats are all rubbish. No decent build uses any of them, and as far as I'm aware we're the only class that doesn't have at least one worth getting.

    The extra pip from Greater Divine Power is extremely useful if you're spec'd and geared to build fast DP.
  • landragoonlandragoon Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    justkaz wrote: »
    The extra pip from Greater Divine Power is extremely useful if you're spec'd and geared to build fast DP.

    If you manage your DP properly, it's not useful at all

    On topic: Playing support/DPS Cleric myself occasionally. I like the playstyle, my guild likes the utility a lot. Most of your contributions don't even appear on the charts, so don't expect to top them, but all this "Buff Clerics are useless" is just uninformed blabbering.
  • oronessoroness Member Posts: 378 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    fondlez wrote: »
    Don't be so naive. Or perhaps you really do not play NW any more, as per your sig, so do not have a clue how much has changed...

    1. The days of having only AShield as your "heal" in endgame PvE and then anything else on your bars for fun are LONG gone and are never coming back. The dev's made sure of that. If you are a solo DC, you are now a healbot, i.e. every single spell you have, particularly Encounters supports some form of healing or damage reduction and your whole build is mostly or only oriented towards such output.

    2. To optimize DPS is a whole different ball game. You would slot non-healer spells, such as Daunting Light, Searing Light, Divine Glow, Prophecy of Doom and Break the Spirit. With the right build, you may overlap with Sunburst to proc crits. You would wear gear like dps High Prophet armor (good luck getting the Bound feet) and Grand Templar. You would always have Holy Fervor or Terrifying Insight and possibly Healer's Lore. Your At-Wills would include Lance of Faith. You would have heroic feats that optimize for crit and AP while dropping survivability, extra healing output and lower priority for Divine Power. Most of your paragons would be in Virtuous tree instead of Faithful tree. You may even cycle Power combos like Guardian of Faith or Divine Armor when they are not needed just to proc damage bonuses. Your gear is likely to slot for Armor Penetration just to raise your own personal dps.

    How does that sound like any healer you have heard of? Exactly...

    So, a "hybrid" in this sense is somewhere between those two extremes and would be "optimal" and, arguably (whole point of this thread) only viable in premade groups with a second DC who is the main healer.

    All of this means that you're hybrid based on what you slot on your action bar.
    It still makes me rofl. No offense, you seem to be a very convincing person, but you can't call hybrid to something that cant hybridize.

    The NW cleric has the default ability to combine defensive support and offensive support in equal ammounts without giving up any of them. Sure, you're so cool maximizing your DPS to ridiculous levels while the CW struggles to keep himself over 20% HP because you seem to heal once every minute and for a rather crappy ammount of hitpoints. That's Extreme.
    As extreme as sloting a lot of healing abilities, keeping your mates at 100% HP all the time but not boosting their offensive abilities not even in the slightest.
    So if you prefer to do BOTH, as the design of the class itself intended, you become what... a hybrid? LOL. Good one.
    Or did you become a hybrid when you chose to NOT fully support your party and boost your damage and (as a secondary effect) boost your party's damage? Or was it when you decided to... anyway. The conclussion is that anyone who's not sloting AS is a hybrid. Or can you really slot AS and become a hybrid? That needs clarification too.

    What you're explaining to me is that you can change your playstyle accordingly to what you choose to slot on your actionbars, which is part of that thing many people ignore that's precisely called "common sense". that's NOT hybridizing. If a CW chooses to go thaumaturge instead of renegade everyone will point at him and "ha-ha! you're a hybrid!". Or is slotting Oppressive force instead of Arcane singularity what defines if a CW is a HYBRID or not?
    Hmm... are cold based CWs hybrids? Or are the hybrids those who use mostly arcane spells? WAIT! the Hybrid CWs are the ones who use a combination of cold and arcane spells!!! omg, i'm such a pro hybridizer now. Every CW is a hybrid! This game is full of hybrids omfg!

    Now tell me the difference between a cleric that slots Divine Glow + AS + SB vs. a cleric that slots Searing Light, Divine Glow and Daunting light. Only the encounters have changed and... omg they're both hybrid right? so let's call them Hybrid A and Hybrid B, shall we? Who's more useful to the party, the one that's buffing their defenses, attacks and provides consistent healing or the one that's only providing an attack buff and some AoE damage? Well, you can't really measure who's more useful so whatever so let's skip it. Those who use sunburst as one of their encounters got linked spirit and benefit of foresight so sunburst procs both of them at a 9 seconds cooldown. Those who prefer to use any other offensive ability in it's place got any of those other crappy feats that boost praticular skills.
    There's also a Hybrid C and a Hybrid D. Oh, don't forget the hybrids E and F.
    I could go on and on on explaining which encouters use each one of those hybrids, but then I would have too hybridize my post into a novel.

    Well, enough nonsense, i've had my fun already.

    And also, just to point out your so called DPS potential. Sacred flame has a higher DPs than lance of faith. The math has been done done several times by different people and the result is that lance is kind of... lame. So much for a dps cleric slotting lance :rolleyes:
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I want this class in NW. :o
  • faeriestormfaeriestorm Member Posts: 460 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    Linked spirt proccing with sunburst? Maybe if you use it in divinity mode, but then you get the knockback too. It specifically says it only procs when using channelled divinity. Maybe read the tooltip?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    The only requirement is for you to be in Divinity mode. You don't have to actually use Divine Sunburst (see other posts for correct timing).

    Edit: Nvm. Tests inconsistent.
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • fimcontefimconte Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I'd consider bringing a DPS DC over a GWF.
    The party buffs from a dps DC seem vastly superior, the only question is damage difference.

    Also, Which abilities proc High Prophet 4pc bonus? And do any of them add more than 1 stack? What about GPF dot?
    Fans Glory to the Gladiators,
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  • gtxinsanegtxinsane Member Posts: 116 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    Linked spirt proccing with sunburst? Maybe if you use it in divinity mode, but then you get the knockback too. It specifically says it only procs when using channelled divinity. Maybe read the tooltip?

    Cast sunburst and before animation completes go into divinity. Whether it's working as intended or not is up for people to decide. This
    Gabriel Angelfire - Devoted Cleric // Karguk the Impaler - Great Weapon Fighter // Zephalyne - Control Wizard
    PVP: How to make your life less miserable as a Devoted Clerics -- Still in it's Unfinished Glory
    Dragon
  • lerapisolerapiso Member Posts: 85
    edited July 2013
    oroness wrote: »
    And also, just to point out your so called DPS potential. Sacred flame has a higher DPs than lance of faith. The math has been done done several times by different people and the result is that lance is kind of... lame. So much for a dps cleric slotting lance :rolleyes:

    TOP LEL xD
  • g0ld3n4c3g0ld3n4c3 Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    we need paragon path for DPS Clerics. try righteous path and you will love it more too.
  • datemperdatemper Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 210 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    Viable,yes,optimal,no.

    If you play with a steady party that like to mix it up with classes,rather than play the same classes all the time,speccing out of the box can be great fun.
  • unicornmdunicornmd Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Why did I read 8 pages of this? Is this a troll thread?
  • cody29cody29 Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    unicornmd wrote: »
    Why did I read 8 pages of this? Is this a troll thread?

    ./thread

    10chars
  • toxikaltoxikal Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Hell, i'm new to the game this week and i read all 8 pages without understanding 75% of what was being discussed but i have come to the conclusion that the answer is:
    No..not really.
  • kattefjaeskattefjaes Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2,270 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    unicornmd wrote: »
    Why did I read 8 pages of this? Is this a troll thread?

    Pretty much.
  • ken0389vahnzken0389vahnz Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    rebel230 wrote: »
    I had an awesome dps cleric back in the single player game, was a lot of fun, although we did get a mace. I was wondering if you can make a solid, group viable dps based cleric here?

    I really think it is. I can show you a screenshot of the dps I did in CN. I am in no way spec'd(featwise) as a DPS cleric. I have deistik's build so I am a critical cleric and I also did some alterations like getting linked spirits. I was just so bored that time that I tried going full dps encounter slots since we had 2 DCs(including me). I was shocked with the results. I really did not think a DC can do so much dps.

    Here's the screenshot. The 2nd is an 11k+ TR, 3rd and 4th are CWs with 10k+ and 11k+ gs. I have 13k gs with greater vorpal. They are by no means bad players. They are my guildies and I run with them all the time and I can guarantee you that they are very good players.
    1fbl12.jpg
  • maahkremuirsongmaahkremuirsong Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    i wouldn't say we'er a viable dps, but rather a support dps-meaning we can dish out debuffs, specially if youre on the "Virtuous path", then you can provide some debuffs.

    Our biggest hurdle in dps is the limitations of our spells, our aoes hit only a max of 5, and our single target dps skills lack luster in damage.

    Perhaps if the combination of tene and vorpal can help augment our dps (brand of the sun + spear)

    Lastly i like it that the cleric is not really meant to be the top dps, otherwise a lot of cleric will stop healing :)
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Actually Virtuous clerics are capable of good DPS, it's just that it's not a good idea to play a cleric as a DPSer. This is the reason why even a Virtuous cleric focused entirely on support can top DPS charts in bad groups - you'll be surprised at just how much total damage Sunburst/FF crit spam + consistent at-will crits will do. You don't even have to be a Virtuous cleric to top DPS in PUGS. In areas where you don't need to heal as much, or when you're on add duty and you have a really good tank/wizard/gwf you can even afford to slot powers like Searing Light and Divine Glow, which is probably how Shantelle topped Pain Giver above. Either that, or she pushed a really, really high number of mobs off cliffs.
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • ken0389vahnzken0389vahnz Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    tyrtallow wrote: »
    Actually Virtuous clerics are capable of good DPS, it's just that it's not a good idea to play a cleric as a DPSer. This is the reason why even a Virtuous cleric focused entirely on support can top DPS charts in bad groups - you'll be surprised at just how much total damage Sunburst/FF crit spam + consistent at-will crits will do. You don't even have to be a Virtuous cleric to top DPS in PUGS. In areas where you don't need to heal as much, or when you're on add duty and you have a really good tank/wizard/gwf you can even afford to slot powers like Searing Light and Divine Glow, which is probably how Shantelle topped Pain Giver above. Either that, or she pushed a really, really high number of mobs off cliffs.
    I was using Searing light, sunburst, and daunting light on encounter slots. I only pushed quite a few. We had 2 CWs with high recovery, so we almost had 90% up-time on arcane singularity. I time searing light with the singularity so I can hit all mobs.
  • lerapisolerapiso Member Posts: 85
    edited July 2013
    1373055822-shhhhhhhh.png

    Wasting party slot :o
  • adozuadozu Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    how about another CW? you'd have dealt a total of 20% less personal dps (5% less for the party approx on those numbers) but bringing a lot more utility. so yeah, maybe viable, certainly sub-optimal.

    same goes for another rogue.
  • lerapisolerapiso Member Posts: 85
    edited July 2013
    adozu wrote: »
    how about another CW? you'd have dealt a total of 20% less personal dps (5% less for the party approx on those numbers) but bringing a lot more utility. so yeah, maybe viable, certainly sub-optimal.

    same goes for another rogue.

    Duellist flurry dont stack :p
    Triple CW ? LEL :p
    DPS DC best pick imo
  • kidbskidbs Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 294
    edited July 2013
    lerapiso wrote: »
    1373055822-shhhhhhhh.png

    Wasting party slot :o

    What setup are you rolling with lerapiso, meaning gear, slotted abilities, etc....?
This discussion has been closed.