A lot of people would have been used to the 3.5 rule set from Bioware's NWN. I'll do some short comparison of 3.5 and 4E.
3.5 had; Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer and Wizard. (11 classes)
4.0 had; Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlock, Warlord, Wizard (8 classes)
Neverwinter has DC, GF, GWF, TR, CW. (4 classes - GF and GWF are both Fighters)
However in version 3.5 of the rules, characters had the ability to wear any armour that they had proficiency for. So, a Cleric had up to heavy armour proficiency meaning that it could wear Cloth/Leather/Chain Mail/Scale Mail/Plate. The heavier armours being the best for them. Same goes for Fighters and Paladins. And unless you were using a 2 Handed Weapon, they could all use a shield too.
Rogues only had proficiency up to Leather (although you could buy the other grades of proficiency with Feats) but then anything heavier than leather started imposing penalties to the dexterity bonus.
4E changed this a bit so the highest for Clerics was chainmail.
Weapon wise, Clerics in 4E could use Simple Melee: Clubs, Daggers, Maces, Javelins, Sickles and Spears (as well as simple ranged) and they had a Holy Symbol as an implement. No Sceptre's whatsoever.
In 3.5 the list of simple weapons was a lot longer.
So, from 3.5 to 4E, WotC have trimmed down a lot of stuff. Here, PW/Cryptic have cut down on what's already been cut down which is why a lot of people are complaining.
Totally agree. But the 3.5 rules to 4.0 wasnt just a lot of trimming down it was hacked and slashed down. Dumbed down totally to the point pretty much all the characters were totally similar. Thats why 4.0 ed sucked so bad. Thats one other thing i dont understand cryptic new 4.0ed rules sucked and that wotc was working out 5.0ed. I dont know why they didnt go with the new rules 5.0 that would of been more like 3.5 once again.
Yes similar in the vaguest sense if you are a min/maxer and yes those mechanics were very trivialized, lets not forget the non-visible cloaks, no true animal companion for rangers etc etc....peopel always forget that when they are holding DDO up against Neverwinter.
I believe it has already been well established that DDO is a dated game, pushing 7 years old now, and in that regard, things like cloaks and other graphics that the engine could not handle are an acceptable missing part of the game. Not to mention, what DnD player would wear a cloak on their back? It would cover the back pack, quiver, 100 ft of rope, and dozen 10 foot poles
The reality is, DDO feels like you are playing DnD, it gives that Feel of doing a dungeon, that tack GM voice over, and the fact that not every quest is Run up to it and kill it really sells the DnD Feel.
As for Rangers missing their pets, well, I guess that is still better then.. well rangers just missing LOL. :rolleyes:
Neverwinter is D&D, just a new version of it. New things are introduced to D&D all the time, and it doesn't automatically make it no D&D, just because the game is different from what it was before.
We are going to agree to disagree, while Neverwinter is an fine MMO in regards to what MMO's put out today, it is no where near close to a Dungeons and Dragons experience or even a Dungeons and Dragons Game.
WotC made 4e the way it is because of a few reasons.
3.5e
1) it was very complicated for both new players and new DM's.
a) a new player could expect 100 hours + just to learn the bulk of the basics to the point where they could start learning the complexities of the possibilities.
b) new DM's weren't feasible if they didnt have quite a bit of player experience as well as taking the time to study the DMG and MM's. and then they had to find a group of players that were willing to "train" that new DM by letting him/her get the "feel" of being a DM by throwing awfel encounter after awfel encounter so he/she could see what works and what doesnt (as well as getting a feel of general power levels of the various monsters)
2) because of these above complexities, current players wouldnt get bored easily due to the sheer amount of possible ways they could builds their characters. and DM's would always have the challenge of "how can i make this particular encounter i'm planning high risk for the players but while still keeping its fun value"
because 3.5 was so complex, new players were hard to keep while the current players wouldnt be likely to quit.
for this reason 4e's rule-set was a severely over simplified version. WotC tried to still keep its current fan base while attracting the younger generation of "impatient action mmo gamers".
WotC over shot that goal and made it too simple, which is why it has gotten so much negative publicity. paiso took this opportunity to please the pnp dnd gamers that were unhappy by releasing pathfinder. pathfinder is (essentially) a 3.5 rule-set modified to close loopholes and simplify a lot of the redundancies 3.5 had, which is why it is regarded as "better" than dnd 4e (and to a certain extent 3.5e), which is backed up by the satisfaction of veteran pnp dnd gamers and 1st-time pnp gamers alike.
in summary:
3.5) too complicated for 1st-time pnp gamers to warrant their continued business (especially the modern mmo generation)
4e) too simple to keep the satisfaction of most veteran pnp gamers, while being very attractive to the modern mmo generation (both veteran pnp gamers and 1st timers)
WotC only allowed cryptic access to 4e for NW because if they allowed cryptic to base on 3.5e, it would mean that WotC was acknowledging the inferiority of 4e. also with NW based on 4e, it gives WotC free publicity, which makes the pnp 4e and NW more profitable to WotC.
imo, 4e is the better choice for NW due to the potential player-base. the older generation, which is looks more favorably on 3.5, are generally not putting a lot of time in mmo games. the younger generation (which i like to call the "me, me, me" generation or the "i wanna blow stuff up" generation), which leans more toward the flair of 4e, spends a lot of time playing mmo's.
and about 5e:
paiso sucessfully enticed, with pathfinder, most of the the unhappy dnd fans, which is why WotC is getting rid of the "powers" system in favor of a ruleset that merges the most well recieved features of 3.5 and before (what they have the rights to anyway), in order to try and save the dnd franchise from fading from the future.
they are gonna need all the luck they can get their hands on to save dnd, cuz paiso has some of the most well liked and skilled thinkers WotC had working on dnd.
The reality is, DDO feels like you are playing DnD, it gives that Feel of doing a dungeon, that tack GM voice over, and the fact that not every quest is Run up to it and kill it really sells the DnD Feel.
Yes, DDO did very well with the whole DM/Narrator voice. Unfortunately, the rest of the game is min/max number-cruncher hell.
Yes, DDO did very well with the whole DM/Narrator voice. Unfortunately, the rest of the game is min/max number-cruncher hell.
and horrible graphics... although I loved actually feeling like I was playing D&D every character there looked in dire need of a chiropractor... I loved secret doors, traps, and the like.. you felt like you were the class that you were playing and points placed into different abilities really made a difference whether you could accomplish something or not
He is trying to suggest that D&D has always been the D20 System despite the facts to the contrary.
Then it boils down to pretty much exactly the same issue that the thread is about: one "official" meaning, but people tending to instead use a personal definition instead.
Totally agree. But the 3.5 rules to 4.0 wasnt just a lot of trimming down it was hacked and slashed down. Dumbed down totally to the point pretty much all the characters were totally similar. Thats why 4.0 ed sucked so bad. Thats one other thing i dont understand cryptic new 4.0ed rules sucked and that wotc was working out 5.0ed. I dont know why they didnt go with the new rules 5.0 that would of been more like 3.5 once again.
A lot was removed, not all of it bad, and some new mechanics introduced. 4th ed also took a lot of ideas from good 3.5 concepts like Warlocks, Tome of Battle etc, and quite a bit of feedback from their forums.
Peope have said that 4th ed reminded them of an MMO. For example it gave fighters actual abilities to use rather than relying on just making basic attacks. Handy for an action MMO.
Being much better balanced than 3.5 was also a factor, since balance is much more important in a computer RPG than one with a live DM.
They likely didn't go with the 5.0 rules because those aren't actually out yet: they are still in a testing state. They may not have been able to use the D&D label if the game was not based on an existing D&D ruleset.
Yes, DDO did very well with the whole DM/Narrator voice. Unfortunately, the rest of the game is min/max number-cruncher hell.
I am going to disagree with you there as well. Lets be real here, you could min/max yourself to silly levels, but if you forgot your death ward, you're still a pile of ash. Stats were no substitute for planing, prep, and skill. A player could have a sub optimal build, but via gear and planning do astonishingly well.
Case in point, no amount of min/max will save you when you hit lava, but having the foresight have Fire Resist&Protect gear will. Knowing to bring a Flaming Throwing hammer of Undead bane was worth far more then being Max Points at Hitting things with an Ax, when you fall into a room full of Ice Boned Skeletons.
In Fact that was one of the great DnD Feels of DDO, that there was not perveriable BiS item, or gear, most of what you had was situation, and in the spirit of DnD, what you found in some low level adventure, you may very well end up using for many levels and lives to come.
Not to mention, things made sense in DDO, fire did extra damage to cold based creatures, bunts did full damage to skeletons, while doing less to zombies.
And that's pretty impressive for a game made 7 years ago, most modern MMO's do not play that kind of attention to detail. In that vein, yes, DDO felt like Playing DnD by the DnD rules.
Now, Neverwinter is a fine MMO in the sense that it comparable to most MMO's out there, but lets be real here, it's a MMO just like all other ones out there, there is nothing about this game that sets it apart from say GW2 in it's mechanics beyond the Foundry, and as such in spirit, feel, and rules, it is simply not DnD.
That does not make it a bad game, it simply does not make it a game of DnD.
I am going to disagree with you there as well. Lets be real here, you could min/max yourself to silly levels, but if you forgot your death ward, you're still a pile of ash. Stats were no substitute for planing, prep, and skill. A player could have a sub optimal build, but via gear and planning do astonishingly well.
Eh, the min/max part was the one where, if you didn't entirely plan your build out before even picking your stats, you were screwed. And yeah, it used all the skills... but most of them would end up useless unless they were at their absolute highest value (max skill points + max item bonuses). Search & Spot weren't useful if you didn't have them super-high, for instance. Ditto with unlock, disarm trap, and so on.
Yeah, the "need to have the right gear" thing, where I saw people showing off screenshots of the 3+ action bars full of all their 3/day buff & recovery & protection items..... that's another mark against it in my book. Crazy levels of micromanagement needed once you got into the low-to-mid teens and higher. (Thinking about it, I'd probably put that in min-maxing as well - having all those abilities & daily items set up to make sure your stats - both numbers & resistances - were "perfect")
Pretty difficult to try to balance more than five D&D classes for PvP - since D&D classes aren't designed for PvP.
Better to get the core classes working well and add the hybrids later.
Always been D20, even if the "system" wasnt named. Argue-ably the single biggest issue with this game. It doesn't use the nearly perfect D20 system. Among other things..
roflmao
The game always included a 20-sider die - among others. But D20 is a system that started with 3E.
In any case - D20 is a great system for a turn-based game.
Doesn't work for an action-RPG.
People have said that 4th ed reminded them of an MMO. For example it gave fighters actual abilities to use rather than relying on just making basic attacks. Handy for an action MMO.
Being much better balanced than 3.5 was also a factor, since balance is much more important in a computer RPG than one with a live DM.
3E already felt like an MMO.
I was finally able to grasp party dynamics from having played EQ, DAoC and AO.
Prolly didn't have as many MMO comparisons at the time because relatively few people were playing MMOs.
When 4E came out, tons of people had played WoW, so the comparisons were more apparent. And, yeah, 4E made sure that everyone constantly had something to do.
If my DM gave my group the same quests as I have flopped through in my 58 lvls so far, his next session would have been solo, or there would have been some serious pvp going on in the gaming room.
I have no 4e experience what so ever, but from what I've been hearing, that coupled with the most generic questing offered here, only the most addicted to the brand will be sticking this one out.
roflmao
The game always included a 20-sider die - among others. But D20 is a system that started with 3E.
In any case - D20 is a great system for a turn-based game.
Doesn't work for an action-RPG.
Thought this game being an action mmo was the problem...
Im arround in this foruns for arround 3 years now, and since the very begin i always warn to be very carefull on what cryptic call a true Dungeon and dragons game.
Even when the first news about game mechanincs and classes start to popup me and many others (probably pnp players like myself) start to warning about what was wrong, guess they never listened to us. As an example is the classes, for cryptic to be able to add all classes ingame with the current build (devoted cleric, war cleric, etc...) they will have to build like +20 classes for this game just from player handbook 1. it was a BIG mistake.... why ? because now people are complaining theres not much costumization to ur character... Why ? Because a control wizard is only supose to control.... if i want dps i will get some other classes. They should have build just a wizard and then u decide which especialization u wanted to follow. this is just an example how bad the game design is atm.
Exacly, like i said im following the for 3 years now and its because is a D&D game, not because is another MMO in the market... The only thing that keep me arround is because i rly think the game have a huge potencial, the combat is amazing, the best ive seen in 10 years of my MMO's experience but its all about that. I think cryptic should rly start to think about making some real changes about the game mechanics and about end game aswell.
I will be arround to see, even if im not playing the game anymore
Good to still see you around macabrivs! Yeah, many old school D&D folks feel the same way, especially about the character customization. Me included. You may like it more post 2013 when there's many more classes released, if they get serious about party grouping, and the game is more mature.
Wizards of the Coast Invented D&D and AD&D, I was around for D&D Version 0.99 (early 1970's) and it was Wizards.
You are correct, PE/Cryptic is NOT Dungeons and Dragons persay IMHO
IMHO..Neverwinter Nights Version 1 was the definition of AD&D. You could redesign the entire world from the ground up. You could host you won 'server' (game) with you as the DM. I still run a HUGE NWN1 World (see sig) that has been super modified because you can. THATS REAL D&D.
Just for historical accuracy, Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson created Dungeons and Dragons in 1971.
A year later, Gary Gygax teamed with business partners Don Kaye and Brian Blume and formed a company called the Tactical Studies Rules, best known to gamers worldwide as TSR. The game was finally published in 1974.
Believe it or not, Wizards of the Coast did not purchase TSR until 1997.
1) My cleric can't wear plate, carry a 2h hammer, tank everything, do godly damage, turn an army of undead, and keep everyone healed all at once without breaking a sweat.
The dev log for 3e pnp said something to the extent of:
"When we first introduced the cleric class nobody wanted to play it, it took several rounds of significantly buffing up its powers before enough playtesters were willing to play a cleric." (not exact quote)
They completely misunderstood the fact that the class role and fluff were horrible and just beefed them up until they were unstoppable gods which drew in enough power gamers.
2) There's only 5 classes, unless there are 60 classes, double classes, triple classes, it's not D&D.
First off dont listen to anyone who says "I heard about 4thed. but never tried it myself". 4th did simplify some thing like the skill list(hide and move silent became stealth and listen and spot became perception). Classes as use atwills,encounters, and dailies along with feats and backgrounds and had a limited multiclassing system. While you couldnt make crazy builds like in 3.5, it actually was the best edition for character concept. It also put all classes into specific roles(defender,leader,controller, and striker) which alot of people compared too MMOs. By the way paizo created pathfinder because wizards fired them from their magazines and a new licsence for 4th edition that was alot more controlling. Paizo needed a system for their adventure paths and if they chose to sign on for 4th they couldnt use the ogl anymore. This scared away most 3rd parties. $th was also designed to work with a promised virtual table wich became vapor ware. Along with a terrible marketing campaign that insulted most players of old editions this caused a rift in an already devided fan base.
Just for historical accuracy, Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson created Dungeons and Dragons in 1971.
A year later, Gary Gygax teamed with business partners Don Kaye and Brian Blume and formed a company called the Tactical Studies Rules, best known to gamers worldwide as TSR. The game was finally published in 1974.
Believe it or not, Wizards of the Coast did not purchase TSR until 1997.
In fact WotC was a minuscule gaming company until 1993, when RG created Magic (auguably the best game design of the last 25 years) magic made WotC a monster and after that, that monster started eating mithic companys like TSR...
It also put all classes into specific roles(defender,leader,controller, and striker) which alot of people compared too MMOs.
What they actually did was realize that roles like "uses arcane magic" are fluff, not crunch. And merely describe HOW a character does something and resulted in classes whose actual roles were things like "being useless in combat" and "a god who single handedly outdoes 5 muggle PCs".
The roles of defender,leader,controller, and striker always existed in DnD.. they were now just given proper names, and those names happened to be that of their MMO counterparts.
The worst part is that hey used post-Neverwinter Nights Neverwinter. Halueth Never? Give me a break. It's called Neverwinter because the river is warm water, so it's NEVER WINTER there.
But really, if you don't have a THAC0, it's not D&D.:p
Eh, the min/max part was the one where, if you didn't entirely plan your build out before even picking your stats, you were screwed. And yeah, it used all the skills... but most of them would end up useless unless they were at their absolute highest value (max skill points + max item bonuses). Search & Spot weren't useful if you didn't have them super-high, for instance. Ditto with unlock, disarm trap, and so on.
This is a misnomer, and I am starting to realize that you either never played DDO or did not play it for any length of time at this point, and I know for a fact that you did not play a trapper. In counter to that, I played DDO for 3 years, and like most long standing players of DDO I had my completionist project underway, and one of my lives was as a rogue, and the truth is most rogues did not have max skills in trapping, instead most were assassins because the game did not require you to min/max out a skill to have a good use of it.
So, really, I have no idea where you got your info, but you have been lied to.
I think the power gamers and other people you talked to were either ill-informed, or they were just having some fun at your expense about min/maxing in DDO, In fact, a more spread stat score with a more diverse portfolio of skills were your best bet if you ever planned to play in any serious manner in DDO, especially in BYOH groups, and that did happen a lot.
As for planing, truth is, I had a stable full of 20's, and half of them were TR's, and I barely ever planned a character beyond a basic idea of what I wanted to do, having played the 3x edition table top game made being able to understand builds on the fly so much easier and even being able to revamp a build mid run was not all that hard if you knew the PnP rules. Which, imho, is exactly what a DnD MMO should be, I should be able to bring my Table Top gaming skills to the MMO and it integrate well, such to the point that the knowledge base is interchangeable, and DDO grasped that very well in it's inception.
Neverwinter, did not. Again, Not that Neverwinter is a bad MMO, but 4x or even general DnD experience will not help you build a toon in this game or play the adventures, and that is really a demerit for it being a "DnD MMO". Previous MMO experience will help you, but previous DnD won't. That is the main point that many bring up when they say this is not a DnD MMO, is that having been a DnD Player will not give you an edge in the game.
In DDO, being a DnD player and knowing that Zombies take half damage from blunt weapons, gives you a knowledge edge to the game, it's even better when you hit the zombie with your hammer and see that.. Holy! It does take less damage, Just like DnD!
Which is really where games like Neverwinter and DDO divide.
Yeah, the "need to have the right gear" thing, where I saw people showing off screenshots of the 3+ action bars full of all their 3/day buff & recovery & protection items..... that's another mark against it in my book. Crazy levels of micromanagement needed once you got into the low-to-mid teens and higher. (Thinking about it, I'd probably put that in min-maxing as well - having all those abilities & daily items set up to make sure your stats - both numbers & resistances - were "perfect")
For many that was a mark of skill beyond the mindless Point/Shoot mentality of most modern MMO's, where you have to use your brain to plan ahead, to prepare, and figure out what works and what doesn't. It was a lot more then Min/Max, it was thinking, it was planning. Ok.. sure, after 3 years I facerolled dungeons, as easy as most people can face roll a dungeon in Neverwinter currently, but it took me quite a bit of time to get to that point, to get the gear, items, knowledge and skill needed to make that happen.
But that is part of what is a fun game. The journey. I could have done with a bit less grind in DDO, and that was a big turn off to me, but it was a dated game, it was old school from a time of subs, so it was designed around keeping players paying the monthly sub.
But still it was dynamic, case in point, if you get killed by a group of drow, because you charged in and swung your weapon, used your big hits and they poisoned you, immobilized you, and then kicked your butt back to the zone, in DDO, you could go back, swap your gear, swap your weapons, change almost every part of your toon to custom fit that encounter, get some poison resist items, boost the saves, in turn you decrease your DPS, but, hey, trade offs happen, but being able to make those trade offs in a real sense is a part of DnD table top. And then you Try again, and you keep trying till you figure out what combo will give you the best chance to win, then it's all skill in the fight.
In Neverwinter, you have... like almost no ability to really change the encounter, your weapon is BiS, your Gear is BiS, so there is nothing you can do about that, at best you can change some minor abilities, but they don't really change the encounter that much, and most of the time, a single ability really is BiS as well.
Again, Neverwinter is an MMO, and for an MMO, it's pretty good, but, it is in no way a DnD experience, it is an MMO experience, if they changed the setting to a Steam Punk Genre, as opposed to Fantasy, The Neverwinter game platform, how it plays and pretty much everything about it could remain exactly the way it is, with nothing but a graphics update and a few name changes, and no one would think "This is like a DnD game in a Steam Punk setting" they would think "This is a MMO with a Steampunk Setting"
This is a misnomer, and I am starting to realize that you either never played DDO or did not play it for any length of time at this point, and I know for a fact that you did not play a trapper.
Played it for several months, after it went f2p. Tried to get my old highschool D&D group into it (we'd scattered across the country and couldn't do tabletop) but they never came back after the first session or two, so I ended up soloing. Played a number of characters (rogue, fighter, cleric, cleric/fighter, ranger/rogue, fighter/rogue, etc) into the low teens... that's about as far as I could get, between the lack of quests (if you didn't buy plenty of quest packs) and the difficulty of soloing past that point.
So, really, I have no idea where you got your info, but you have been lied to.
The DDO forums, since I needed to see how I could improve my builds (when they were crapping out around lv 8-10). Plenty of threads about how to build right - complete with "spend these skill points exactly at these levels, do your first multiclass of your 18/2 build at this level so that you don't miss such-and-such," and the assumption that you'll have/will need a set of +2 tomes at level 7 in order to make the build work. Along with plenty of complaints about how f2p players were destroying their game, noobs go home, etc.
And I know from playing my rogues & rangers, that you started having trouble with spot/search/disarm/unlock before level 10, if you weren't careful to put every point you could into it, plus gathering use/day buff items.
The DDO forums, since I needed to see how I could improve my builds (when they were crapping out around lv 8-10). Plenty of threads about how to build right - complete with "spend these skill points exactly at these levels, do your first multiclass of your 18/2 build at this level so that you don't miss such-and-such," and the assumption that you'll have/will need a set of +2 tomes at level 7 in order to make the build work. Along with plenty of complaints about how f2p players were destroying their game, noobs go home, etc.
LOL. yah, those forums were rough to say the least, but that is what happens when you are trying to level and ask power gamers for advice, they pretty much find ways to suck the fun out of a game in any way they can.
While yes, knowing when to split can help you out, it gives you a little boost, like my 18/2 Wiz/rogue, my first time up I took both rogue levels and then started the wizard levels, people told me I gimped my toon because I lost such and such state, blah, blah, whine, whine, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> moan and complain about max skills. I still could do the traps in almost every dungeon I came across save for one really insane one that did not matter anyway.
My Next 2 lives as a Wiz/Rogue, I did the splits as they should have been to optimize my skill points, in the end of things, I walked away with a few extra points in Use Magic Devices (which is really handy) but my trapping skills were the same for all my lives.
My Main rogue's life was a 14 rogue/6 fighter, and I still trapped just fine, even if it was by no means a trapping spec build, as a joke, I went mechanic so I could shoot a heavy repeater out of spite and for a bit of fun.
In the end of things, 10th is a hard level in DDO, because it was a dated game, a very dated game, and 10+ was a dawn of a new expansion, so it was built with a 3 year power creep set into it, and in that front, difficulty jumped a great deal from around that level time. Yah, you needed to buy some packs to make that leveling much easier, or go ViP.
Also, lets be fair here, no one is arguing that DDO did not have it's issues, only that it was more true to forum a DnD based game.
And I know from playing my rogues & rangers, that you started having trouble with spot/search/disarm/unlock before level 10, if you weren't careful to put every point you could into it, plus gathering use/day buff items.
/shrug
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DOO could set difficulty of dungeons and unless you were running Elite, even sub par was good enough, especially if you were doing a dungeon on normal. Which, to be fair, if you were a F2P, at best you could open was normal, so, it should not have been an issue with any investment. I mean sure, if you maxed your Str and Dex, thinking Rogue jumps around with daggers, and did not invest at least some into Int, then you were shooting yourself in the foot, but again, that was what DnD was about, having that PnP game knowledge was a big part of being able to walk in and know what you are doing.
Again, No one is saying that DDO did not have it's issues, I mean I stopped playing because in truth I was getting sick of the bugs and problems the game constantly had, so I am not singing that DDO was the best game ever (it could have been if they had a better captain) however it had it's issues, and a lot of them, but, it really was an MMO build on the Spirit of the PnP DnD Game.
Neverwinter is a fine MMO, for an MMO, but as others have said many times over, it's just an MMO, it's not a Real Dungeons and Dragons Experence, and them advertising that it is, is going to turn off a great many people coming here looking for that.
DDO is dead. kthxbai. Turbine completely alienated their playerbase with the dumbing down and wowification of the game.
Advertising this game as dnd is rather stupid, as it will get the wrong people to join. I kind of like korean grinders, only the grinding part is what I hate and since levelling up here is insanely fast I quite enjoy it.
NWN itself was just...not a good game. It was the custom servers, adventures, you could actually have nearly a complete Dnd tabletop game if the DM was up to the task of tediously rescripting the spells to match dnd/house rules.
Companies in general just don't seem to give a **** about players, other then their money. Turbine did this by trying to appeal to the dumb masses and getting all the vets to leave, leaving the shards empty and making it hard to party as well as the complete changing of the spellsystem with the long heard excuse "It's not balanced!". Bioware did this by screaming "It's not possible to make spells follow dnd rules!" while plenty of servers I played on did a much better job. Bigby's Forceful hand was an absolutely broken joke because of this. We had to deal with gamebreaking AC bugs for months on end. And this game does it by lying in your face and saying it is like NWN and follows dnd rules.
And the 3.5ed dnd rules are perfectly balanced (3ed had some broken stuff like heal and harm). It's unfeasible to get every spell or class in the game, even NWN didn't have prestige classes until an expansion, and even then it only had a small fraction of them. The problem with every "dnd mmo" is that the games are obviously designed by marketing experts, who see that "WoW" is the holy way to coins in the coffer. The whole "it's not balanced" nonsense comes from lazy game companies that want to make money and keep the people asking for proper implementation of certain spells off their backs. If balance was a problem Turbine would've changed wall of fire long ago. Actually, wall of fire is only broken because of how spellpower and fire spell enhancements work. Clerics and Wizard/Sorc can be balanced easily by changing the level of magic. NWN had an extreme high magic server called Neversummer (had very little to with actual DND, but it was FUN! More fun then this game, more fun then DDO, that's what happens when GAMERS design a game, rather then overpaid marketing executives living in a world of stress and promotions) and Clerics/Mages had all of their spells buffed because of the insane power of the weapons and armor. If you get this level of power right and keep the broken spells out (easy because there's so many spells and you are not going to be implementing all of them in a game anyway) then all classes are rather balanced.
The one issue with dnd (which DDO shows perfectly and has actually exacerbated with enhancements) is the sheer difficulty in character design. "min/maxing" is freaking hard. The average player can not just login, make a character and play. I think this is the real reason no MMO is designed like this, and why despite dumbification of the game DDO just can't get the masses to play. NWN had a few guys on the pvp servers dominating everything, with everyone else just "being there" or using a half-decent build off the forums. If you just do "whatever" you are going to lose so badly it's not even fun. A good fix for this would be a "recommended" setting for each class, and making those recommended settings actually rather good. But then you would also have to suggest multiclassing...
The foundry does have alot of potential. It's in a very early stage but it could be improved to allow for more "dndish" missions, and we will just have to live with the fact that DnD is finished, as WotC has proven already with 4ed. Time to relearn THAC0 and boot up some stone age dnd games.
It's not D&D - it's Champions at a Ren Faire, with less flexibility. Even uses a lot of the same emote animations and commands.
LOL my champions chars actually SAID they were going to ren-faire when I went to the beta weekends
but most licensed mmos seem to have similar issues. LOTRO people whined it was just wow with hobbits, sto people are constantly saying its nothing like star trek, TOR the starwars fanbois kept complaining because they used "non cannon" aspects which was funny since they claimed the old republic games were not cannon.
people see a license and figure they are entitled to what they imagine the license to entail. no MMO will ever be d&d DDO wasn't either. it would just be to hard to please everyone. Thid game however has the potential given time to be d&d...like if they intro a new race/class every few months bring in new areas and new events, if they apply what they have in CO and STO and expand costumes/emotes/pet customization keep adding new professions... id like to see enchanting after the weapon ones. break down stuff and make enhancments or temp buffs.
but yes its not d&d.... but give it time cause its still a good game.
Comments
Totally agree. But the 3.5 rules to 4.0 wasnt just a lot of trimming down it was hacked and slashed down. Dumbed down totally to the point pretty much all the characters were totally similar. Thats why 4.0 ed sucked so bad. Thats one other thing i dont understand cryptic new 4.0ed rules sucked and that wotc was working out 5.0ed. I dont know why they didnt go with the new rules 5.0 that would of been more like 3.5 once again.
I believe it has already been well established that DDO is a dated game, pushing 7 years old now, and in that regard, things like cloaks and other graphics that the engine could not handle are an acceptable missing part of the game. Not to mention, what DnD player would wear a cloak on their back? It would cover the back pack, quiver, 100 ft of rope, and dozen 10 foot poles
The reality is, DDO feels like you are playing DnD, it gives that Feel of doing a dungeon, that tack GM voice over, and the fact that not every quest is Run up to it and kill it really sells the DnD Feel.
As for Rangers missing their pets, well, I guess that is still better then.. well rangers just missing LOL. :rolleyes:
We are going to agree to disagree, while Neverwinter is an fine MMO in regards to what MMO's put out today, it is no where near close to a Dungeons and Dragons experience or even a Dungeons and Dragons Game.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You?
3.5e
1) it was very complicated for both new players and new DM's.
a) a new player could expect 100 hours + just to learn the bulk of the basics to the point where they could start learning the complexities of the possibilities.
b) new DM's weren't feasible if they didnt have quite a bit of player experience as well as taking the time to study the DMG and MM's. and then they had to find a group of players that were willing to "train" that new DM by letting him/her get the "feel" of being a DM by throwing awfel encounter after awfel encounter so he/she could see what works and what doesnt (as well as getting a feel of general power levels of the various monsters)
2) because of these above complexities, current players wouldnt get bored easily due to the sheer amount of possible ways they could builds their characters. and DM's would always have the challenge of "how can i make this particular encounter i'm planning high risk for the players but while still keeping its fun value"
because 3.5 was so complex, new players were hard to keep while the current players wouldnt be likely to quit.
for this reason 4e's rule-set was a severely over simplified version. WotC tried to still keep its current fan base while attracting the younger generation of "impatient action mmo gamers".
WotC over shot that goal and made it too simple, which is why it has gotten so much negative publicity. paiso took this opportunity to please the pnp dnd gamers that were unhappy by releasing pathfinder. pathfinder is (essentially) a 3.5 rule-set modified to close loopholes and simplify a lot of the redundancies 3.5 had, which is why it is regarded as "better" than dnd 4e (and to a certain extent 3.5e), which is backed up by the satisfaction of veteran pnp dnd gamers and 1st-time pnp gamers alike.
in summary:
3.5) too complicated for 1st-time pnp gamers to warrant their continued business (especially the modern mmo generation)
4e) too simple to keep the satisfaction of most veteran pnp gamers, while being very attractive to the modern mmo generation (both veteran pnp gamers and 1st timers)
WotC only allowed cryptic access to 4e for NW because if they allowed cryptic to base on 3.5e, it would mean that WotC was acknowledging the inferiority of 4e. also with NW based on 4e, it gives WotC free publicity, which makes the pnp 4e and NW more profitable to WotC.
imo, 4e is the better choice for NW due to the potential player-base. the older generation, which is looks more favorably on 3.5, are generally not putting a lot of time in mmo games. the younger generation (which i like to call the "me, me, me" generation or the "i wanna blow stuff up" generation), which leans more toward the flair of 4e, spends a lot of time playing mmo's.
and about 5e:
paiso sucessfully enticed, with pathfinder, most of the the unhappy dnd fans, which is why WotC is getting rid of the "powers" system in favor of a ruleset that merges the most well recieved features of 3.5 and before (what they have the rights to anyway), in order to try and save the dnd franchise from fading from the future.
they are gonna need all the luck they can get their hands on to save dnd, cuz paiso has some of the most well liked and skilled thinkers WotC had working on dnd.
Yes, DDO did very well with the whole DM/Narrator voice. Unfortunately, the rest of the game is min/max number-cruncher hell.
and horrible graphics... although I loved actually feeling like I was playing D&D every character there looked in dire need of a chiropractor... I loved secret doors, traps, and the like.. you felt like you were the class that you were playing and points placed into different abilities really made a difference whether you could accomplish something or not
Peope have said that 4th ed reminded them of an MMO. For example it gave fighters actual abilities to use rather than relying on just making basic attacks. Handy for an action MMO.
Being much better balanced than 3.5 was also a factor, since balance is much more important in a computer RPG than one with a live DM.
They likely didn't go with the 5.0 rules because those aren't actually out yet: they are still in a testing state. They may not have been able to use the D&D label if the game was not based on an existing D&D ruleset.
I am going to disagree with you there as well. Lets be real here, you could min/max yourself to silly levels, but if you forgot your death ward, you're still a pile of ash. Stats were no substitute for planing, prep, and skill. A player could have a sub optimal build, but via gear and planning do astonishingly well.
Case in point, no amount of min/max will save you when you hit lava, but having the foresight have Fire Resist&Protect gear will. Knowing to bring a Flaming Throwing hammer of Undead bane was worth far more then being Max Points at Hitting things with an Ax, when you fall into a room full of Ice Boned Skeletons.
In Fact that was one of the great DnD Feels of DDO, that there was not perveriable BiS item, or gear, most of what you had was situation, and in the spirit of DnD, what you found in some low level adventure, you may very well end up using for many levels and lives to come.
Not to mention, things made sense in DDO, fire did extra damage to cold based creatures, bunts did full damage to skeletons, while doing less to zombies.
And that's pretty impressive for a game made 7 years ago, most modern MMO's do not play that kind of attention to detail. In that vein, yes, DDO felt like Playing DnD by the DnD rules.
Now, Neverwinter is a fine MMO in the sense that it comparable to most MMO's out there, but lets be real here, it's a MMO just like all other ones out there, there is nothing about this game that sets it apart from say GW2 in it's mechanics beyond the Foundry, and as such in spirit, feel, and rules, it is simply not DnD.
That does not make it a bad game, it simply does not make it a game of DnD.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You?
Eh, the min/max part was the one where, if you didn't entirely plan your build out before even picking your stats, you were screwed. And yeah, it used all the skills... but most of them would end up useless unless they were at their absolute highest value (max skill points + max item bonuses). Search & Spot weren't useful if you didn't have them super-high, for instance. Ditto with unlock, disarm trap, and so on.
Yeah, the "need to have the right gear" thing, where I saw people showing off screenshots of the 3+ action bars full of all their 3/day buff & recovery & protection items..... that's another mark against it in my book. Crazy levels of micromanagement needed once you got into the low-to-mid teens and higher. (Thinking about it, I'd probably put that in min-maxing as well - having all those abilities & daily items set up to make sure your stats - both numbers & resistances - were "perfect")
Better to get the core classes working well and add the hybrids later.
The game always included a 20-sider die - among others. But D20 is a system that started with 3E.
In any case - D20 is a great system for a turn-based game.
Doesn't work for an action-RPG.
I was finally able to grasp party dynamics from having played EQ, DAoC and AO.
Prolly didn't have as many MMO comparisons at the time because relatively few people were playing MMOs.
When 4E came out, tons of people had played WoW, so the comparisons were more apparent. And, yeah, 4E made sure that everyone constantly had something to do.
I have no 4e experience what so ever, but from what I've been hearing, that coupled with the most generic questing offered here, only the most addicted to the brand will be sticking this one out.
Good to still see you around macabrivs! Yeah, many old school D&D folks feel the same way, especially about the character customization. Me included. You may like it more post 2013 when there's many more classes released, if they get serious about party grouping, and the game is more mature.
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No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
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the problem is WotC restricting cryptic's choises. WotC has the final say what is represented. period.
^(stupid)^
You are correct, PE/Cryptic is NOT Dungeons and Dragons persay IMHO
IMHO..Neverwinter Nights Version 1 was the definition of AD&D. You could redesign the entire world from the ground up. You could host you won 'server' (game) with you as the DM. I still run a HUGE NWN1 World (see sig) that has been super modified because you can. THATS REAL D&D.
[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]Memories of Krynn ( NW-DMM8MANTM ) Save The Forgotten Realms from th[SIZE=-1]e Queen of Darkness![/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
The inspiration for the Ansalon NW Foundry Project
http://nwn.starfire3d.com
A year later, Gary Gygax teamed with business partners Don Kaye and Brian Blume and formed a company called the Tactical Studies Rules, best known to gamers worldwide as TSR. The game was finally published in 1974.
Believe it or not, Wizards of the Coast did not purchase TSR until 1997.
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No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
"When we first introduced the cleric class nobody wanted to play it, it took several rounds of significantly buffing up its powers before enough playtesters were willing to play a cleric." (not exact quote)
They completely misunderstood the fact that the class role and fluff were horrible and just beefed them up until they were unstoppable gods which drew in enough power gamers.
D&D has way more than 60 classes.
"SWEET JESUS ITS TAKING LONG ENUFF"
In fact WotC was a minuscule gaming company until 1993, when RG created Magic (auguably the best game design of the last 25 years) magic made WotC a monster and after that, that monster started eating mithic companys like TSR...
The roles of defender,leader,controller, and striker always existed in DnD.. they were now just given proper names, and those names happened to be that of their MMO counterparts.
But really, if you don't have a THAC0, it's not D&D.:p
This is a misnomer, and I am starting to realize that you either never played DDO or did not play it for any length of time at this point, and I know for a fact that you did not play a trapper. In counter to that, I played DDO for 3 years, and like most long standing players of DDO I had my completionist project underway, and one of my lives was as a rogue, and the truth is most rogues did not have max skills in trapping, instead most were assassins because the game did not require you to min/max out a skill to have a good use of it.
So, really, I have no idea where you got your info, but you have been lied to.
I think the power gamers and other people you talked to were either ill-informed, or they were just having some fun at your expense about min/maxing in DDO, In fact, a more spread stat score with a more diverse portfolio of skills were your best bet if you ever planned to play in any serious manner in DDO, especially in BYOH groups, and that did happen a lot.
As for planing, truth is, I had a stable full of 20's, and half of them were TR's, and I barely ever planned a character beyond a basic idea of what I wanted to do, having played the 3x edition table top game made being able to understand builds on the fly so much easier and even being able to revamp a build mid run was not all that hard if you knew the PnP rules. Which, imho, is exactly what a DnD MMO should be, I should be able to bring my Table Top gaming skills to the MMO and it integrate well, such to the point that the knowledge base is interchangeable, and DDO grasped that very well in it's inception.
Neverwinter, did not. Again, Not that Neverwinter is a bad MMO, but 4x or even general DnD experience will not help you build a toon in this game or play the adventures, and that is really a demerit for it being a "DnD MMO". Previous MMO experience will help you, but previous DnD won't. That is the main point that many bring up when they say this is not a DnD MMO, is that having been a DnD Player will not give you an edge in the game.
In DDO, being a DnD player and knowing that Zombies take half damage from blunt weapons, gives you a knowledge edge to the game, it's even better when you hit the zombie with your hammer and see that.. Holy! It does take less damage, Just like DnD!
Which is really where games like Neverwinter and DDO divide.
For many that was a mark of skill beyond the mindless Point/Shoot mentality of most modern MMO's, where you have to use your brain to plan ahead, to prepare, and figure out what works and what doesn't. It was a lot more then Min/Max, it was thinking, it was planning. Ok.. sure, after 3 years I facerolled dungeons, as easy as most people can face roll a dungeon in Neverwinter currently, but it took me quite a bit of time to get to that point, to get the gear, items, knowledge and skill needed to make that happen.
But that is part of what is a fun game. The journey. I could have done with a bit less grind in DDO, and that was a big turn off to me, but it was a dated game, it was old school from a time of subs, so it was designed around keeping players paying the monthly sub.
But still it was dynamic, case in point, if you get killed by a group of drow, because you charged in and swung your weapon, used your big hits and they poisoned you, immobilized you, and then kicked your butt back to the zone, in DDO, you could go back, swap your gear, swap your weapons, change almost every part of your toon to custom fit that encounter, get some poison resist items, boost the saves, in turn you decrease your DPS, but, hey, trade offs happen, but being able to make those trade offs in a real sense is a part of DnD table top. And then you Try again, and you keep trying till you figure out what combo will give you the best chance to win, then it's all skill in the fight.
In Neverwinter, you have... like almost no ability to really change the encounter, your weapon is BiS, your Gear is BiS, so there is nothing you can do about that, at best you can change some minor abilities, but they don't really change the encounter that much, and most of the time, a single ability really is BiS as well.
Again, Neverwinter is an MMO, and for an MMO, it's pretty good, but, it is in no way a DnD experience, it is an MMO experience, if they changed the setting to a Steam Punk Genre, as opposed to Fantasy, The Neverwinter game platform, how it plays and pretty much everything about it could remain exactly the way it is, with nothing but a graphics update and a few name changes, and no one would think "This is like a DnD game in a Steam Punk setting" they would think "This is a MMO with a Steampunk Setting"
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You?
Played it for several months, after it went f2p. Tried to get my old highschool D&D group into it (we'd scattered across the country and couldn't do tabletop) but they never came back after the first session or two, so I ended up soloing. Played a number of characters (rogue, fighter, cleric, cleric/fighter, ranger/rogue, fighter/rogue, etc) into the low teens... that's about as far as I could get, between the lack of quests (if you didn't buy plenty of quest packs) and the difficulty of soloing past that point.
The DDO forums, since I needed to see how I could improve my builds (when they were crapping out around lv 8-10). Plenty of threads about how to build right - complete with "spend these skill points exactly at these levels, do your first multiclass of your 18/2 build at this level so that you don't miss such-and-such," and the assumption that you'll have/will need a set of +2 tomes at level 7 in order to make the build work. Along with plenty of complaints about how f2p players were destroying their game, noobs go home, etc.
And I know from playing my rogues & rangers, that you started having trouble with spot/search/disarm/unlock before level 10, if you weren't careful to put every point you could into it, plus gathering use/day buff items.
/shrug
LOL. yah, those forums were rough to say the least, but that is what happens when you are trying to level and ask power gamers for advice, they pretty much find ways to suck the fun out of a game in any way they can.
While yes, knowing when to split can help you out, it gives you a little boost, like my 18/2 Wiz/rogue, my first time up I took both rogue levels and then started the wizard levels, people told me I gimped my toon because I lost such and such state, blah, blah, whine, whine, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> moan and complain about max skills. I still could do the traps in almost every dungeon I came across save for one really insane one that did not matter anyway.
My Next 2 lives as a Wiz/Rogue, I did the splits as they should have been to optimize my skill points, in the end of things, I walked away with a few extra points in Use Magic Devices (which is really handy) but my trapping skills were the same for all my lives.
My Main rogue's life was a 14 rogue/6 fighter, and I still trapped just fine, even if it was by no means a trapping spec build, as a joke, I went mechanic so I could shoot a heavy repeater out of spite and for a bit of fun.
In the end of things, 10th is a hard level in DDO, because it was a dated game, a very dated game, and 10+ was a dawn of a new expansion, so it was built with a 3 year power creep set into it, and in that front, difficulty jumped a great deal from around that level time. Yah, you needed to buy some packs to make that leveling much easier, or go ViP.
Also, lets be fair here, no one is arguing that DDO did not have it's issues, only that it was more true to forum a DnD based game.
[/quote]
DOO could set difficulty of dungeons and unless you were running Elite, even sub par was good enough, especially if you were doing a dungeon on normal. Which, to be fair, if you were a F2P, at best you could open was normal, so, it should not have been an issue with any investment. I mean sure, if you maxed your Str and Dex, thinking Rogue jumps around with daggers, and did not invest at least some into Int, then you were shooting yourself in the foot, but again, that was what DnD was about, having that PnP game knowledge was a big part of being able to walk in and know what you are doing.
Again, No one is saying that DDO did not have it's issues, I mean I stopped playing because in truth I was getting sick of the bugs and problems the game constantly had, so I am not singing that DDO was the best game ever (it could have been if they had a better captain) however it had it's issues, and a lot of them, but, it really was an MMO build on the Spirit of the PnP DnD Game.
Neverwinter is a fine MMO, for an MMO, but as others have said many times over, it's just an MMO, it's not a Real Dungeons and Dragons Experence, and them advertising that it is, is going to turn off a great many people coming here looking for that.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You?
Advertising this game as dnd is rather stupid, as it will get the wrong people to join. I kind of like korean grinders, only the grinding part is what I hate and since levelling up here is insanely fast I quite enjoy it.
NWN itself was just...not a good game. It was the custom servers, adventures, you could actually have nearly a complete Dnd tabletop game if the DM was up to the task of tediously rescripting the spells to match dnd/house rules.
Companies in general just don't seem to give a **** about players, other then their money. Turbine did this by trying to appeal to the dumb masses and getting all the vets to leave, leaving the shards empty and making it hard to party as well as the complete changing of the spellsystem with the long heard excuse "It's not balanced!". Bioware did this by screaming "It's not possible to make spells follow dnd rules!" while plenty of servers I played on did a much better job. Bigby's Forceful hand was an absolutely broken joke because of this. We had to deal with gamebreaking AC bugs for months on end. And this game does it by lying in your face and saying it is like NWN and follows dnd rules.
And the 3.5ed dnd rules are perfectly balanced (3ed had some broken stuff like heal and harm). It's unfeasible to get every spell or class in the game, even NWN didn't have prestige classes until an expansion, and even then it only had a small fraction of them. The problem with every "dnd mmo" is that the games are obviously designed by marketing experts, who see that "WoW" is the holy way to coins in the coffer. The whole "it's not balanced" nonsense comes from lazy game companies that want to make money and keep the people asking for proper implementation of certain spells off their backs. If balance was a problem Turbine would've changed wall of fire long ago. Actually, wall of fire is only broken because of how spellpower and fire spell enhancements work. Clerics and Wizard/Sorc can be balanced easily by changing the level of magic. NWN had an extreme high magic server called Neversummer (had very little to with actual DND, but it was FUN! More fun then this game, more fun then DDO, that's what happens when GAMERS design a game, rather then overpaid marketing executives living in a world of stress and promotions) and Clerics/Mages had all of their spells buffed because of the insane power of the weapons and armor. If you get this level of power right and keep the broken spells out (easy because there's so many spells and you are not going to be implementing all of them in a game anyway) then all classes are rather balanced.
The one issue with dnd (which DDO shows perfectly and has actually exacerbated with enhancements) is the sheer difficulty in character design. "min/maxing" is freaking hard. The average player can not just login, make a character and play. I think this is the real reason no MMO is designed like this, and why despite dumbification of the game DDO just can't get the masses to play. NWN had a few guys on the pvp servers dominating everything, with everyone else just "being there" or using a half-decent build off the forums. If you just do "whatever" you are going to lose so badly it's not even fun. A good fix for this would be a "recommended" setting for each class, and making those recommended settings actually rather good. But then you would also have to suggest multiclassing...
The foundry does have alot of potential. It's in a very early stage but it could be improved to allow for more "dndish" missions, and we will just have to live with the fact that DnD is finished, as WotC has proven already with 4ed. Time to relearn THAC0 and boot up some stone age dnd games.
LOL my champions chars actually SAID they were going to ren-faire when I went to the beta weekends
but most licensed mmos seem to have similar issues. LOTRO people whined it was just wow with hobbits, sto people are constantly saying its nothing like star trek, TOR the starwars fanbois kept complaining because they used "non cannon" aspects which was funny since they claimed the old republic games were not cannon.
people see a license and figure they are entitled to what they imagine the license to entail. no MMO will ever be d&d DDO wasn't either. it would just be to hard to please everyone. Thid game however has the potential given time to be d&d...like if they intro a new race/class every few months bring in new areas and new events, if they apply what they have in CO and STO and expand costumes/emotes/pet customization keep adding new professions... id like to see enchanting after the weapon ones. break down stuff and make enhancments or temp buffs.
but yes its not d&d.... but give it time cause its still a good game.