You just like to foam a bit more at the mouth, but that's alright.
Perma-stealth is NOT the problem... the problem is perma-stealth AND the way CoS is stacking with runepowers.
Now, good job patting yourself on the head, here, have a cookie.
And you are a patronising fool. You fail to comprehend the point that a perma build is broken. If you note the original poster says the following
the damage comes from accumulated attacks, with Poisons, Nimble Blade Procs, Greater Tene Procs (if you have any),
You dont need the tenes. I pointed them out to counter your argument that this build does no damage. It does. I see no reason why any class should have perma stealth.
Are you stupid or are you so far gone you cant see that other people arent interested in playing against a build you cant see at all.
Can someone post how much a true perma-stealth with full tene's setup would cost in AD and/or real world dollars? (here is a hint: its a @#$% load.) If you spent that much money on your toon, you'd be face rolling people too. The highest level enchantments have the potential to make several builds across several classes absolutely insane. Stop calling for a class Nerf because the guy with the million dollar toon just dominated you...
God are you dumb
The OP of the perma build states the following
the damage comes from accumulated attacks, with Poisons, Nimble Blade Procs, Greater Tene Procs (if you have any),
You dont need them to make the build work. Did you not watch the video????????
This.
Stealth + Cloud does damage to Wizards and only wizards - against every other class it's pittance damage. Unless you're loaded with the brokenly powerful stacking tenebrous enchants.
Watch the video fool. Its not just CW which he destroys due to their low armor. He kills multiple toons and i dont see people pulling him out of stealth with aoenand keeping him out.
To take a quote from him directly
I think my best KDR was 28 kills and 0 deaths in a single match
with the build you can 1v1 and 1v2 with no problems that's why the enemy team would have to send 3+ or the whole team to take you
So i dont understand your talk of low damage because thats not the case.
And you say it burns CWs only. Great so they cant see him and just die lol. Now he is 2v1 another player which is OP. Your point just doesnt make sense
I see no reason why any class should have perma stealth.
So, your problem is now the build itself, and not Cloud of Steel? What would you suggest as a way to fix this problem, then? How would you change the build so that it's still viable and that the characters don't suddenly become useless?
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
Wow, tl;dr it all.. but skimming over it your "rebuttal" to my comment is almost something I didn't see coming. The long winded part that I didn't read all of makes me I already said you're invoking the statement of "I'm right and you're wrong in all your posts regardless of other peoples points." And you turn it around on me by saying I'm wrong (almost didn't see that one coming!) and I'm the one saying other people are wrong and I'm right. This build is going under the knife despite you and your fellow misguided compadres best efforts to downplay the actual effectiveness..
and I'm right you're wrong... or wait are you're right I'm wrong and anybody else that plays an end game rogue that doesn't agree with you doesn't know ****.. Oh well, keep mouth breathing and write me another novel to tl;dr.
What's the point of this post? Like, you're literally basking in intentional ignorance right now. I don't understand how you think it makes you look like anything other than silly. I realize that you aren't interested in an actual discussion - and that's fine, but now I'm just curious about what this post in general was supposed to prove or convey. I defend my class, you childishly insult me. I write out the arguments you requested, and you don't even bother to read them. You put words in my mouth to argue against a strawman instead of actually engaging me in an intelligent manner. I'm honestly baffled about why you're even in this thread at this point, other than to troll?
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
So, your problem is now the build itself, and not Cloud of Steel? What would you suggest as a way to fix this problem, then? How would you change the build so that it's still viable and that the characters don't suddenly become useless?
Thats up to the devs to figure out Pink. Frankly im not the biggest fan of COS in stealth but at least their stealth will break. but there are plenty of str based builds that maintain stealth for extended periods of time. If they are in melee then i have a chance of ccing or moving but at range its a guess.
A stealthed rogue spamming COS just dumb. It wouldnt be that bad if there was a hard break in stealth for a period of time implemented.
Edit: so having watched the vid pink do you think the way the mechanic is used is fair and reasonable ?
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
What's the point of this post? Like, you're literally basking in intentional ignorance right now. I don't understand how you think it makes you look like anything other than silly. I realize that you aren't interested in an actual discussion - and that's fine, but now I'm just curious about what this post in general was supposed to prove or convey. I defend my class, you childishly insult me. I write out the arguments you requested, and you don't even bother to read them. You put words in my mouth to argue against a strawman instead of actually engaging me in an intelligent manner. I'm honestly baffled about why you're even in this thread at this point, other than to troll?
It's like ping pong! Everything you said I can turn around back at you! Woohoo! I don't need to write out any arguments or points because they've already been made throughout this thread and you've chose to ignore them or say they're wrong. Much the same as you're claiming I'm ignoring your points or saying you're wrong. All a matter of opinion and I'm on the sensible side of opinions in regards to this current build.
This kind gentleman ex3lade, who was kind enough to make a guide and videos on how effective it is and how "not out of the realm of possibility" in cost it is to achieve it. I would say he is more informed then yourself in this particular matter and you don't see him making any claims that it isn't overpowered. We haven't heard your opinion in regards to his contribution to the discussion yet. I promise I'll read it! :rolleyes:
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psion6Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
To be short, like I said in the other thread (Spectacle), this is one of the most broken elements of PvP gameplay right now. This build is pure cheese for non-skilled rogues, and its not even close to being balanced.
Folks like Pink will try to cry and defend cheese builds until they are blue in the face, but its also why they arent developers. Being able to take most of someone's health away without even being targetable is broken in an absurd way. It will get fixed, and then he'll have to go back to being a bad player. Im sure the data-mining suggests this build is overly used and pretty one-sided.
The TR I finally killed in a match that had this build raged at me because he actually died for a change. I had to follow him across the entire map to do so as he killed a few other of my teammates, but it did finally happen. ; P
Thats up to the devs to figure out Pink. Frankly im not the biggest fan of COS in stealth but at least their stealth will break. but there are plenty of str based builds that maintain stealth for extended periods of time. If they are in melee then i have a chance of ccing or moving but at range its a guess.
A stealthed rogue spamming COS just dumb. It wouldnt be that bad if there was a hard break in stealth for a period of time implemented.
It really seems like you want CoS to behave like, or even become, an encounter ability. I say this because at-wills will never break stealth, no matter how unfair people may find the concept. The rogue class is built around using At-Wills in stealth and in order to change that you would have to change the entire feat tree. If CoS was an encounter ability; it would have a long cooldown, break stealth, and take up a slot that would normally go to a CC/utility/stealth-building skill. It would also mean that it would need enough power to compare to other Encounter Abilities like Lashing Blade, so a damage nerf would be out of the question. Another suggestion some people have made is to keep it as a stealthy At-Will, but reduce the amount of damage it does with certain "game-breaking" gear.
Personally, I'm fine with anything that still makes it a viable ability, but don't have a lot of faith in PWI knowing how to properly "nerf" something without making it useless.
Edit: so having watched the vid pink do you think the way the mechanic is used is fair and reasonable ?
I watched the video and can't help but feel like the entire rogue class is being judged by the actions of the minority. I think you're being a bit disingenuous if you're claiming that you're meeting many rogues like the one in that video. This guy has clearly spent millions of AD to build this character, and doesn't really represent your average rogue. For one thing, the player in the video has very high damage, which just seems crazy once you realize that he's prioritizing Recovery and Intelligence. That just isn't possible without $$$. The player in the video also knows the in and outs of the class so well that he's not making any mistakes. Your average player simply cannot do the things he's doing in this video without making a mistake; and your average player would be left practically defenseless once their stealth drops since the build doesn't have proper CC/AoE abilities. When I use my "stealthy" rogue, I have to deal with the limitations; namely, lower damage and a lack of utility. However the player seems unaffected by either.
I suppose I don't really know if what the guy is doing is fair or not, but I do know that any change to stealth wouldn't just affect him, but every rogue. I certainly don't think it's fair to imply that skills like Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike have to be changed just because a minority of rogues have figured out a way to become nigh-unkillable. In the end, I feel like what's going to happen is that my character is going to become less effective because of what this other rogue build is capable of doing while in stealth. That doesn't feel fair or reasonable to me. With the damage I'm seeing in the video, I feel like the rogue in it would actually do okay in combat if he wasn't permanently stealthed , but I do wonder about all the people who have somewhat similar builds and skills who would be completely broken if the stealth mechanics were changed.
It's like ping pong! Everything you said I can turn around back at you! Woohoo! I don't need to write out any arguments or points because they've already been made throughout this thread and you've chose to ignore them or say they're wrong. Much the same as you're claiming I'm ignoring your points or saying you're wrong. All a matter of opinion and I'm on the sensible side of opinions in regards to this current build.
"I don't need to write out any arguments or points" is a deflection tactic, as is alluding to points other people have made in the thread without going through the trouble of quoting. It's all meaningless in terms of actually having discussion. I would appreciate it if you didn't compare yourself to me, because we are clearly trying to accomplish to different things in this thread. I am not simply insinuating that I am so right that I don't need to provide arguments. That is what you are doing. I'm not claiming you're ignoring my points, you are outright admitting to not reading them. So no, you can't turn everything I said "back at" me. You are literally going, "I'm on the sensible side so I'm right. I don't need to tell you why I'm right, because I'm right." I, on the other hand, am simply explaining why I don't think the build is as outrageous as people are claiming it is. I'm providing arguments to support my beliefs, because I'm not just assuming I'm right and everyone else is wrong. I happen to legitimately disagree with you on a video game mechanic. That's it. It's not a big deal. There's no need for the sarcasm and snide emoticons.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
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psion6Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
God bless whoever found this video. Broke is broke.
To be short, like I said in the other thread (Spectacle), this is one of the most broken elements of PvP gameplay right now. This build is pure cheese for non-skilled rogues, and its not even close to being balanced.
Folks like Pink will try to cry and defend cheese builds until they are blue in the face, but its also why they arent developers. Being able to take most of someone's health away without even being targetable is broken in an absurd way. It will get fixed, and then he'll have to go back to being a bad player. Im sure the data-mining suggests this build is overly used and pretty one-sided.
The TR I finally killed in a match that had this build raged at me because he actually died for a change. I had to follow him across the entire map to do so as he killed a few other of my teammates, but it did finally happen. ; P
Yeah...broke.
Actually, "folks like Pink" don't have a perma-stealth build. I have a saboteur and executioner rogue. I know the internet has taught you that making baseless assumptions about the people you're arguing with really improves the level of your argument, but you should probably ditch that practice if you want to be taken seriously. Honestly, with the way my main character is built, I can just ignore the stealth mechanic entirely and still probably do pretty okay. You know absolutely nothing about me or how I play, and the idea that you can tell I'm a "bad player" through a few posts on this forum is laughable.
What you fail to grasp is that I don't actually care much about this build one way or the other. What I do care about is the stealth mechanics being changed, because that would affect all rogues, not just the ones using this "cheese build". Let's be real here; abilities like Shadow Strike and Bait/Switch completely refill your stealth bar. There's no way to "fix" this permanent stealth build without drastically changing the way these skills operate. In my opinion, this would greatly affect not only these perma-stealth rogues you are so adamant about getting rid off, but anyone who relies on these skills just to increase the paltry amount of stealth they would get otherwise. Someone earlier in this thread claimed that Executioner rogues can stay in stealth for too long as it is, and I just can't wrap my mind around someone being so wrong. A lot of times I don't even bother to use At-Wills while stealthed, because it just slips away too quickly.
But nevermind all that, here's a question that interests me...
Is this it? They've nerfed Duellist's Fury and Shocking Execution, and an upcoming nerf to end-game enchantments are obviously on the horizon. If they change the stealth mechanics so that being permanently-stealthed is no longer possible, and largely reduced the amount of damage CoS would people finally stop crying about rogues? Would that finally end it?
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
I watched the video and can't help but feel like the entire rogue class is being judged by the actions of the minority. I think you're being a bit disingenuous if you're claiming that you're meeting many rogues like the one in that video.
There are plenty of rogues like in this video and it's a growing number. Simply ignoring the issue of what a rogue is capable of doing because of a low amount of people doing it, doesn't seem too intelligent. Lets put Lebron James in a high school basketball game and say everything is fine and dandy since there's only one of him.
I happen to legitimately disagree with you on a video game mechanic. That's it. It's not a big deal. There's no need for the sarcasm and snide emoticons.
The amount of time you've spent here on the forums with these threads tends disagree with that point you tried to make.
idk whats going on here but if the fact you are being killed by CoS spam means you are doing on of the follow-
1. Freaking out and running around like a headless chicken
2. Already in a fight and a TRICKSTER Rogue attacks you from behind after you have used escapes already
3. You get hit by CoS and run in a stupid single line direction up a staircase or off a ledge.
4. You do nothing cause you admit defeat
things you should do when being hit by CoS spam
CW- AoE Push/Kick into Blink the other way (if you cant tell what direction knives are coming from you should just stop PvP untill you learn how to work that out)
GWF - Search for invisible Rogue, attempt to force it into a corner or make him roll past you, TAB if needed to survive CoS spam, dont engage solo (you are an AoE DPS class he is a Single Target DPS class the fact you think you can 1v1 him when he has the jump on you tells me you should stop playing PvP)
GF - take the 1st few hits then block the last, try and make sure you have some block bar left for Lashing. When he appears do your BS perma-prone on him
DC - Stop playing PvP if you find yourself 1v1 a TR, Heal people and stop fighting so much, stay back but near a CW who can push TR away (see CW)
TR - CoS Spam back or use whatever build you are to 1v1 him, if you lose he has a better TR build or is a better TR then you (not including other factors such as remain HP, team mates etc etc)
as for its overpowered? i think the average player base skill level is underpowered. I can PvP with my TR (CoS Spam) but in all seriousness i spend half my time killing people laughing because you run around in circles trying to either escape or find me (that has nothing to do with my CoS Spam being OP, thats 100% just bad play)
the times a CW pushes me back 1/2 way into a CoS Spam and then blinks out, wasting 1/2 my CoS, Stealth and putting me in a spot i REALLY dont want to be in all i wanna do is run away and hide while my enemy captures points or holds the ones they have. (its so annoying, seriously, Nerf Pushes in PvP TO OP FOR TR!!!!)
I can then go play my other toons and do the above mentioned things when fighting against TRs and laugh because the TRs have no clue how to react since no one ever does it to them.
It seriously feels like everyone has just gone online and read some build that is titled "BEST PVP <insert class> BUILD EVER> and you are all running about doing the same thing and dying the same way.
Yeah when every TR out there knows when they see a GF what build they are using we are going to sort out our skills and pick the ones that kill you best and when it comes down to it, we are going to be better at it and all since "we are the DPS class" etc etc cry cry
seriously tho, CoS Spam is a strong move, but its not the be all end all of skill layouts, Also to stealth long enough to get a full spam + escape or get more kills you have to run stealth builds. Otherwise its CoS Spam into stand there and be killed by enemy TR Lashing or CW whatever moves he has that DPS
you want to nerf a TR skill? try Smoke Bomb, its 10x more deadly then CoS
It will be nerf, it's obvious, not because it's just awfull in PVP, but because rouges can also use that in PVE to fight end game boss to the death, making all other class useless.
Yes it's long and boring, but it's possible.
Oh sorry, not useless they need us to clean the trash ^^.
You don't need to argue, it"s just logical.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
. I say this because at-wills will never break stealth, no matter how unfair people may find the concept.
Personally, I'm fine with anything that still makes it a viable ability, but don't have a lot of faith in PWI knowing how to properly "nerf" something without making it useless.
I didn't know you were the lead designer Pink. I think you need to come back to reality.
157 replies – 20984 views. Sounds like a lot of people like this build and make semi perma-stealth str based builds too. I do PVP a lot and I see all sorts of builds and players.
. When I use my "stealthy" rogue, I have to deal with the limitations; namely, lower damage and a lack of utility. However the player seems unaffected by either. .
Selfish Pink you don’t want your build changed so you can exploit the build. Selfish
. I suppose I don't really know if what the guy is doing is fair or not, but I do know that any change to stealth wouldn't just affect him, but every rogue.
Your pretty selfish Pink because you do it too. You don’t care that these people have builds exploit them as long as it doesn’t affect you. Selfish and your head is firmly in the sand.
157 replies – 20984 views. Don’t call me a liar Pink. The post is there. You use it. The video is there as well. It’s in your face proof of the build and how it adversely affects others game play. Selfish Pink very Selfish
. I feel like what's going to happen is that my character is going to become less effective because of what this other rogue build is capable of doing while in stealth.
Selfish Pink you don’t want your build changed so you can exploit the build. Selfish
Actually, "folks like Pink" don't have a perma-stealth build.
Did you just refer to yourself in the third person.
Pulled from the net:
What does it mean when people refer to themselves in the third person?
I feel this best applies to you Pink
"Illeism is used to impart an air of objective impartiality to the account, which included justifications of the author's actions. In this way personal bias is presented, albeit dishonestly, as objectivity"
Could this though
"Similarly illeism is used with an air of grandeur, to give the speaker lofty airs. Idiosyncratic and conceited people are known to either use or are lampooned as using illeism to puff themselves up or illustrate their egoism"
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phantomtempestMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 23Arc User
edited June 2013
GF's hitting like a truck while knocking/throwing you untill you are dead is absurd.
GWF's hitting like a truck(12k hits, and i am in full swashbuckling + best rings, amulet, waist, shirt, pants) while their regen is higher than your dps is absurd.
Did you just refer to yourself in the third person.
Pulled from the net:
What does it mean when people refer to themselves in the third person?
I feel this best applies to you Pink
"Illeism is used to impart an air of objective impartiality to the account, which included justifications of the author's actions. In this way personal bias is presented, albeit dishonestly, as objectivity"
Could this though
"Similarly illeism is used with an air of grandeur, to give the speaker lofty airs. Idiosyncratic and conceited people are known to either use or are lampooned as using illeism to puff themselves up or illustrate their egoism"
I was simply using the designation the poster gave me. Instead of saying something like "it seems like Pinkfont believes", he instead opted for for "Folk like Pinkfont". I was just poking fun at his silly way of addressing me, and this imagined horde of like-minded rogues.
But thanks for the definition.
Hey, is there a cool word to describe someone who feels the need to interrupt a conversation happening between two other people, just to accuse one of them of arrogance, rather than trying to add to the topic in some meaningful way?
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
There are plenty of rogues like in this video and it's a growing number. Simply ignoring the issue of what a rogue is capable of doing because of a low amount of people doing it, doesn't seem too intelligent. Lets put Lebron James in a high school basketball game and say everything is fine and dandy since there's only one of him.
So we should nerf Lebron James? Might want to rethink the analogy just a bit.
Yes, the number of rogues using the build is growing, but it's still a minority. And I'm not ignoring the fact that it's a growing build choice. I'm just pointing out the facts that in order to achieve what he's doing in the video, you have to be rich in terms of the in-game economy, and smart enough to know how to manage cooldowns and stealth. My real problem is that there is realistically no way to nerf the build without nerfing abilities that refill your stealth, and that will affect all rogues, not just the ones you have a problem with.
The amount of time you've spent here on the forums with these threads tends disagree with that point you tried to make.
I don't mean the thread isn't a big deal. I simply mean there's no reason to be this antagonistic and dismissive in every reply. Disagreeing with someone over a video game mechanic doesn't give you carte blanche to be rude. Obviously I think the thread itself is important, since PWI has already made it clear they've taken this feedback to heart.
Does my :cool: make you angerrrry?
This is trolling. And it's stupid.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
I was simply using the designation the poster gave me. Instead of saying something like "it seems like Pinkfont believes", he instead opted for for "Folk like Pinkfont". I was just poking fun at his silly way of addressing me, and this imagined horde of like-minded rogues.
But thanks for the definition.
Hey, is there a cool word to describe someone who feels the need to interrupt a conversation happening between two other people, just to accuse one of them of arrogance, rather than trying to add to the topic in some meaningful way?
I look forward to your reply to my previous post or do folk like pink ignore the truth.
I didn't know you were the lead designer Pink. I think you need to come back to reality.
I'm not a designer, but I'm speaking reasonably. At-Wills do not break stealth. If they did, then all the feats related to doing damage within stealth are useless. All the feats related to make stealth longer are useless. How is what I'm saying untrue? The class is built around using at-wills in stealth, and then powerful encounter abilities to drop out of stealth. Am I wrong? Which of these statements is untrue?
157 replies – 20984 views. Sounds like a lot of people like this build and make semi perma-stealth str based builds too. I do PVP a lot and I see all sorts of builds and players.
It's still a minority. It's presently the current rogue fad, so the numbers are growing, but Executioner rogues are still the vast majority. Personally, I think that playing around with stealth-building skills just isn't as fun as face-stomping people with single target DPS prowess.
Selfish Pink you don’t want your build changed so you can exploit the build. Selfish
Once again, I don't use a perma-stealth build, and you know this. You're better than this. I have a regular Saboteur rouge, who uses intelligent stealth management. There's no "exploitation" involved. I'm not permanently-stealthed, but I do have a long stealth duration and ways to refill it temporarily if the situation gets hairy. That's the purpose of the Saboteur feat tree.
Your pretty selfish Pink because you do it too. You don’t care that these people have builds exploit them as long as it doesn’t affect you. Selfish and your head is firmly in the sand.
You're better than this. If you're just going to go, "You use this build so that's why you like it", then where else can this conversation go?
157 replies – 20984 views. Don’t call me a liar Pink. The post is there. You use it. The video is there as well. It’s in your face proof of the build and how it adversely affects others game play. Selfish Pink very Selfish
If you're suggesting that you are regularly fighting rogues with gear worth millions of AD and who never make a single mistake in their stealth rotation, then yeah, I'm going to call you disingenuous. I don't run dungeons or the new gauntlgyrm. I PvP all day, so I know what types of players are doing it. I'm not saying the build is not growing in popularity. I'm simply saying that the person in the video is not representative of your average rogue, let alone your average intelligent rogue. He's using the best, most expensive gear and never makes a single mistake that would break his stealth. He's outright bypassed the limitations of the build through money and skill.
Selfish Pink you don’t want your build changed so you can exploit the build. Selfish
You're better than this. If you really want to talk about what class/build play in this game, I'll be happy to tell you though. Hopefully you'll stop the silly accusations after I do.
When I first started Neverwinter, I looked through the available classes. I generally play melee-types in RPGs and I thought the GWF looked like a stupid Final Fantasy character with his over-sized sword, so my initial choice was down to Guardian Fighter and Trickster Rogue. Eventually I decided on rogue just because I wanted to play a Halfling instead of a Dwarf. Once I choice a rogue I played all the way to sixty without looking at a single build guide or forum thread about how I should build my character. Unfortunately, this made it so that my character was very underpowered. He was a Saboteur rogue with a bunch of misplaced feats and dumb power choices. I was alright in PvE but absolutely sucked in PvP, and I wasn't willing to spend money on a respec because...screw that.
So I made another rogue. This is my "main". This time I min/maxed the cookie-cutter executioner rogue build from the forums. I picked the perfect skills, the perfect enchantments, the perfect powers; I did everything right. And I dominated at everything. I topped the charts in PvP and PvE. I love this guy, he's just perfect. After some time though, I realized that I was outright ignoring the stealth mechanic at times. So I began playing my Saboteur again, and found that if I properly managed stealth, he wasn't terrible. He was actually kind of fun too.
When this new fad of Intelligence Rogues started, I just had to try it. At the point I had made a CW/GWF, but quickly abandoned them because I'm having so much fun trying different rogue builds. Also this was before GWF buff, so it was weak as ****. Anyway, I go to about level 20 before I realized that this build isn't really fun. In order to achieve permanent stealth you have to have Shadow Strike, and you don't get that until you've spent 45 points. That means you have to level all the way 40 or so, while dealing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> damage because you're prioritizing intelligence, movement speed, and recovery instead of dexterity, charisma, armor pen, power, and crit. On top of that, without Shadow Strike, you can't achieve permanent stealth; so the whole purpose of the build is pointless until you reach high levels. Do you know how annoying leveling a rogue is when you don't feel powerful? And then I realized something else...I need at least 2300 recovery at max level to achieve permanent stealth...the cost of which is an amount of AD I have never, and probably will never have. Needless to say, I don't have this character anymore.
So no, capgarnas, I am not defending this build because I'm "selfish" and I "use it too". I'm not even defending this build. What I am defending are regular Saboteurs and even Executioners who rely to skills like Bait and Switch/Shadow Strike to be effective. They don't have perma-stealth but would be nerfed just as hard if these skills were changed. And why? So a minority of rogue players cannot use a build you disagree with anymore? I'm not saying perma-stealth isn't a problem, I'm saying that you're making a mistake by condemning all rogues because of what a few are doing.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
I look forward to your reply to my previous post or do folk like pink ignore the truth.
What truth? All you said is, "you play the build so you're a big selfish jerk", which isn't true. It will continue to not be true no matter how many times you've said it. I have two level 60 rogues I play and neither one are a perma-stealth build. Hell, I could even screenshot their feats and skills if you think it would prove something.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
What truth? All you said is, "you play the build so you're a big selfish jerk", which isn't true. It will continue to not be true no matter how many times you've said it. I have two level 60 rogues I play and neither one are a perma-stealth build. Hell, I could even screenshot their feats and skills if you think it would prove something.
Been fun Pink.
I know it doesnt matter what point is brought to you. You will defend your class to the last.
Permastealth is broken. You disagree fine. I still say you are being pig headed.
You watch what happens in Gaunt when perma rogues will be carried to exploit 20man PVP. They as you said are growing.
Class is OP Pink. Balance is important to the people who play other classes. Its not this is the striker everyone else suck it,
I know it doesnt matter what point is brought to you. You will defend your class to the last.
Permastealth is broken. You disagree fine. I still say you are being pig headed.
You watch what happens in Gaunt when perma rogues will be carried to exploit 20man PVP. They as you said are growing.
Class is OP Pink. Balance is important to the people who play other classes. Its not this is the striker everyone else suck it,
I know this wasted breath..
I never said I disagreed with permastealth being broken. You're not actually reading what I'm writing or the points I'm making. I'm not the one being pig-headed. You can continue using the deflection tactic of, "It doesn't matter what points I make because you've already made up your mind", and I will continue to point out that you've made no points at all. You accused me of playing the build, I told you this was a lie, and that was the end of that conversation.
Please stop the "I know this is wasted breath" tactic when I'm the only one trying to get an actual discussion out of this thread. I am the one wasting my breath, and I am happy to do so. At least the archives will show that someone was being sensible in this parade of hyperbole and nonsense.
You're just exasperated that someone doesn't agree with you. That's all this is.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
I never said I disagreed with permastealth being broken. You're not actually reading what I'm writing or the points I'm making. I'm not the one being pig-headed. You can continue using the deflection tactic of, "It doesn't matter what points I make because you've already made up your mind", and I will continue to point out that you've made no points at all. You accused me of playing the build, I told you this was a lie, and that was the end of that conversation.
Please stop the "I know this is wasted breath" tactic when I'm the only one trying to get an actual discussion out of this thread. I am the one wasting my breath, and I am happy to do so. At least the archives will show that someone was being sensible in this parade of hyperbole and nonsense.
You're just exasperated that someone doesn't agree with you. That's all this is.
So you agree Permastealth is broken. Ty. It wasnt that hard to say was it.
So you agree Permastealth is broken. Ty. It wasnt that hard to say was it.
Putting words in people's mouth is not effective debating. I don't have any opinion either way in regards to whether it's broken or not, which you would know if you actually bothered to read anything I wrote in this thread. I'm simply concerned about how any changes to the stealth system would affect rogues who are not using the permastealth build. I'm also pointing out key facts about the build that this thread is outright ignoring, such as the high level of cost and skill involved with making it work as it does in that video.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
Comments
And you are a patronising fool. You fail to comprehend the point that a perma build is broken. If you note the original poster says the following
the damage comes from accumulated attacks, with Poisons, Nimble Blade Procs, Greater Tene Procs (if you have any),
You dont need the tenes. I pointed them out to counter your argument that this build does no damage. It does. I see no reason why any class should have perma stealth.
Are you stupid or are you so far gone you cant see that other people arent interested in playing against a build you cant see at all.
Just to respond in kind. **** your cookie
God are you dumb
The OP of the perma build states the following
the damage comes from accumulated attacks, with Poisons, Nimble Blade Procs, Greater Tene Procs (if you have any),
You dont need them to make the build work. Did you not watch the video????????
Watch the video fool. Its not just CW which he destroys due to their low armor. He kills multiple toons and i dont see people pulling him out of stealth with aoenand keeping him out.
To take a quote from him directly
I think my best KDR was 28 kills and 0 deaths in a single match
with the build you can 1v1 and 1v2 with no problems that's why the enemy team would have to send 3+ or the whole team to take you
So i dont understand your talk of low damage because thats not the case.
And you say it burns CWs only. Great so they cant see him and just die lol. Now he is 2v1 another player which is OP. Your point just doesnt make sense
So, your problem is now the build itself, and not Cloud of Steel? What would you suggest as a way to fix this problem, then? How would you change the build so that it's still viable and that the characters don't suddenly become useless?
What's the point of this post? Like, you're literally basking in intentional ignorance right now. I don't understand how you think it makes you look like anything other than silly. I realize that you aren't interested in an actual discussion - and that's fine, but now I'm just curious about what this post in general was supposed to prove or convey. I defend my class, you childishly insult me. I write out the arguments you requested, and you don't even bother to read them. You put words in my mouth to argue against a strawman instead of actually engaging me in an intelligent manner. I'm honestly baffled about why you're even in this thread at this point, other than to troll?
Thats up to the devs to figure out Pink. Frankly im not the biggest fan of COS in stealth but at least their stealth will break. but there are plenty of str based builds that maintain stealth for extended periods of time. If they are in melee then i have a chance of ccing or moving but at range its a guess.
A stealthed rogue spamming COS just dumb. It wouldnt be that bad if there was a hard break in stealth for a period of time implemented.
Edit: so having watched the vid pink do you think the way the mechanic is used is fair and reasonable ?
It's like ping pong! Everything you said I can turn around back at you! Woohoo!
This kind gentleman ex3lade, who was kind enough to make a guide and videos on how effective it is and how "not out of the realm of possibility" in cost it is to achieve it. I would say he is more informed then yourself in this particular matter and you don't see him making any claims that it isn't overpowered. We haven't heard your opinion in regards to his contribution to the discussion yet. I promise I'll read it! :rolleyes:
Folks like Pink will try to cry and defend cheese builds until they are blue in the face, but its also why they arent developers. Being able to take most of someone's health away without even being targetable is broken in an absurd way. It will get fixed, and then he'll have to go back to being a bad player. Im sure the data-mining suggests this build is overly used and pretty one-sided.
The TR I finally killed in a match that had this build raged at me because he actually died for a change. I had to follow him across the entire map to do so as he killed a few other of my teammates, but it did finally happen. ; P
Yeah...broke.
It really seems like you want CoS to behave like, or even become, an encounter ability. I say this because at-wills will never break stealth, no matter how unfair people may find the concept. The rogue class is built around using At-Wills in stealth and in order to change that you would have to change the entire feat tree. If CoS was an encounter ability; it would have a long cooldown, break stealth, and take up a slot that would normally go to a CC/utility/stealth-building skill. It would also mean that it would need enough power to compare to other Encounter Abilities like Lashing Blade, so a damage nerf would be out of the question. Another suggestion some people have made is to keep it as a stealthy At-Will, but reduce the amount of damage it does with certain "game-breaking" gear.
Personally, I'm fine with anything that still makes it a viable ability, but don't have a lot of faith in PWI knowing how to properly "nerf" something without making it useless.
I watched the video and can't help but feel like the entire rogue class is being judged by the actions of the minority. I think you're being a bit disingenuous if you're claiming that you're meeting many rogues like the one in that video. This guy has clearly spent millions of AD to build this character, and doesn't really represent your average rogue. For one thing, the player in the video has very high damage, which just seems crazy once you realize that he's prioritizing Recovery and Intelligence. That just isn't possible without $$$. The player in the video also knows the in and outs of the class so well that he's not making any mistakes. Your average player simply cannot do the things he's doing in this video without making a mistake; and your average player would be left practically defenseless once their stealth drops since the build doesn't have proper CC/AoE abilities. When I use my "stealthy" rogue, I have to deal with the limitations; namely, lower damage and a lack of utility. However the player seems unaffected by either.
I suppose I don't really know if what the guy is doing is fair or not, but I do know that any change to stealth wouldn't just affect him, but every rogue. I certainly don't think it's fair to imply that skills like Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike have to be changed just because a minority of rogues have figured out a way to become nigh-unkillable. In the end, I feel like what's going to happen is that my character is going to become less effective because of what this other rogue build is capable of doing while in stealth. That doesn't feel fair or reasonable to me. With the damage I'm seeing in the video, I feel like the rogue in it would actually do okay in combat if he wasn't permanently stealthed , but I do wonder about all the people who have somewhat similar builds and skills who would be completely broken if the stealth mechanics were changed.
"I don't need to write out any arguments or points" is a deflection tactic, as is alluding to points other people have made in the thread without going through the trouble of quoting. It's all meaningless in terms of actually having discussion. I would appreciate it if you didn't compare yourself to me, because we are clearly trying to accomplish to different things in this thread. I am not simply insinuating that I am so right that I don't need to provide arguments. That is what you are doing. I'm not claiming you're ignoring my points, you are outright admitting to not reading them. So no, you can't turn everything I said "back at" me. You are literally going, "I'm on the sensible side so I'm right. I don't need to tell you why I'm right, because I'm right." I, on the other hand, am simply explaining why I don't think the build is as outrageous as people are claiming it is. I'm providing arguments to support my beliefs, because I'm not just assuming I'm right and everyone else is wrong. I happen to legitimately disagree with you on a video game mechanic. That's it. It's not a big deal. There's no need for the sarcasm and snide emoticons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XylOlYBCGP0
Incoming nerf FTW.
Actually, "folks like Pink" don't have a perma-stealth build. I have a saboteur and executioner rogue. I know the internet has taught you that making baseless assumptions about the people you're arguing with really improves the level of your argument, but you should probably ditch that practice if you want to be taken seriously. Honestly, with the way my main character is built, I can just ignore the stealth mechanic entirely and still probably do pretty okay. You know absolutely nothing about me or how I play, and the idea that you can tell I'm a "bad player" through a few posts on this forum is laughable.
What you fail to grasp is that I don't actually care much about this build one way or the other. What I do care about is the stealth mechanics being changed, because that would affect all rogues, not just the ones using this "cheese build". Let's be real here; abilities like Shadow Strike and Bait/Switch completely refill your stealth bar. There's no way to "fix" this permanent stealth build without drastically changing the way these skills operate. In my opinion, this would greatly affect not only these perma-stealth rogues you are so adamant about getting rid off, but anyone who relies on these skills just to increase the paltry amount of stealth they would get otherwise. Someone earlier in this thread claimed that Executioner rogues can stay in stealth for too long as it is, and I just can't wrap my mind around someone being so wrong. A lot of times I don't even bother to use At-Wills while stealthed, because it just slips away too quickly.
But nevermind all that, here's a question that interests me...
Is this it? They've nerfed Duellist's Fury and Shocking Execution, and an upcoming nerf to end-game enchantments are obviously on the horizon. If they change the stealth mechanics so that being permanently-stealthed is no longer possible, and largely reduced the amount of damage CoS would people finally stop crying about rogues? Would that finally end it?
...whoever found the video? You're acting as if it were hidden.
The people who uploaded it is the same person who created the build this thread is about. The video is in the opening post of her thread.
There are plenty of rogues like in this video and it's a growing number. Simply ignoring the issue of what a rogue is capable of doing because of a low amount of people doing it, doesn't seem too intelligent. Lets put Lebron James in a high school basketball game and say everything is fine and dandy since there's only one of him.
The amount of time you've spent here on the forums with these threads tends disagree with that point you tried to make.
Does my :cool: make you angerrrry?
1. Freaking out and running around like a headless chicken
2. Already in a fight and a TRICKSTER Rogue attacks you from behind after you have used escapes already
3. You get hit by CoS and run in a stupid single line direction up a staircase or off a ledge.
4. You do nothing cause you admit defeat
things you should do when being hit by CoS spam
CW- AoE Push/Kick into Blink the other way (if you cant tell what direction knives are coming from you should just stop PvP untill you learn how to work that out)
GWF - Search for invisible Rogue, attempt to force it into a corner or make him roll past you, TAB if needed to survive CoS spam, dont engage solo (you are an AoE DPS class he is a Single Target DPS class the fact you think you can 1v1 him when he has the jump on you tells me you should stop playing PvP)
GF - take the 1st few hits then block the last, try and make sure you have some block bar left for Lashing. When he appears do your BS perma-prone on him
DC - Stop playing PvP if you find yourself 1v1 a TR, Heal people and stop fighting so much, stay back but near a CW who can push TR away (see CW)
TR - CoS Spam back or use whatever build you are to 1v1 him, if you lose he has a better TR build or is a better TR then you (not including other factors such as remain HP, team mates etc etc)
as for its overpowered? i think the average player base skill level is underpowered. I can PvP with my TR (CoS Spam) but in all seriousness i spend half my time killing people laughing because you run around in circles trying to either escape or find me (that has nothing to do with my CoS Spam being OP, thats 100% just bad play)
the times a CW pushes me back 1/2 way into a CoS Spam and then blinks out, wasting 1/2 my CoS, Stealth and putting me in a spot i REALLY dont want to be in all i wanna do is run away and hide while my enemy captures points or holds the ones they have. (its so annoying, seriously, Nerf Pushes in PvP TO OP FOR TR!!!!)
I can then go play my other toons and do the above mentioned things when fighting against TRs and laugh because the TRs have no clue how to react since no one ever does it to them.
It seriously feels like everyone has just gone online and read some build that is titled "BEST PVP <insert class> BUILD EVER> and you are all running about doing the same thing and dying the same way.
Yeah when every TR out there knows when they see a GF what build they are using we are going to sort out our skills and pick the ones that kill you best and when it comes down to it, we are going to be better at it and all since "we are the DPS class" etc etc cry cry
seriously tho, CoS Spam is a strong move, but its not the be all end all of skill layouts, Also to stealth long enough to get a full spam + escape or get more kills you have to run stealth builds. Otherwise its CoS Spam into stand there and be killed by enemy TR Lashing or CW whatever moves he has that DPS
you want to nerf a TR skill? try Smoke Bomb, its 10x more deadly then CoS
Yes it's long and boring, but it's possible.
Oh sorry, not useless they need us to clean the trash ^^.
You don't need to argue, it"s just logical.
I didn't know you were the lead designer Pink. I think you need to come back to reality.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?324111-Build-Guide-quot-INT-Rogue-quot-Perma-Stealth-Build
157 replies – 20984 views. Sounds like a lot of people like this build and make semi perma-stealth str based builds too. I do PVP a lot and I see all sorts of builds and players.
Selfish Pink you don’t want your build changed so you can exploit the build. Selfish
Your pretty selfish Pink because you do it too. You don’t care that these people have builds exploit them as long as it doesn’t affect you. Selfish and your head is firmly in the sand.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?324111-Build-Guide-quot-INT-Rogue-quot-Perma-Stealth-Build
157 replies – 20984 views. Don’t call me a liar Pink. The post is there. You use it. The video is there as well. It’s in your face proof of the build and how it adversely affects others game play. Selfish Pink very Selfish
Selfish Pink you don’t want your build changed so you can exploit the build. Selfish
Did you just refer to yourself in the third person.
Pulled from the net:
What does it mean when people refer to themselves in the third person?
I feel this best applies to you Pink
"Illeism is used to impart an air of objective impartiality to the account, which included justifications of the author's actions. In this way personal bias is presented, albeit dishonestly, as objectivity"
Could this though
"Similarly illeism is used with an air of grandeur, to give the speaker lofty airs. Idiosyncratic and conceited people are known to either use or are lampooned as using illeism to puff themselves up or illustrate their egoism"
GWF's hitting like a truck(12k hits, and i am in full swashbuckling + best rings, amulet, waist, shirt, pants) while their regen is higher than your dps is absurd.
I was simply using the designation the poster gave me. Instead of saying something like "it seems like Pinkfont believes", he instead opted for for "Folk like Pinkfont". I was just poking fun at his silly way of addressing me, and this imagined horde of like-minded rogues.
But thanks for the definition.
Hey, is there a cool word to describe someone who feels the need to interrupt a conversation happening between two other people, just to accuse one of them of arrogance, rather than trying to add to the topic in some meaningful way?
So we should nerf Lebron James?
Yes, the number of rogues using the build is growing, but it's still a minority. And I'm not ignoring the fact that it's a growing build choice. I'm just pointing out the facts that in order to achieve what he's doing in the video, you have to be rich in terms of the in-game economy, and smart enough to know how to manage cooldowns and stealth. My real problem is that there is realistically no way to nerf the build without nerfing abilities that refill your stealth, and that will affect all rogues, not just the ones you have a problem with.
I don't mean the thread isn't a big deal. I simply mean there's no reason to be this antagonistic and dismissive in every reply. Disagreeing with someone over a video game mechanic doesn't give you carte blanche to be rude. Obviously I think the thread itself is important, since PWI has already made it clear they've taken this feedback to heart.
This is trolling. And it's stupid.
I look forward to your reply to my previous post or do folk like pink ignore the truth.
I'm not a designer, but I'm speaking reasonably. At-Wills do not break stealth. If they did, then all the feats related to doing damage within stealth are useless. All the feats related to make stealth longer are useless. How is what I'm saying untrue? The class is built around using at-wills in stealth, and then powerful encounter abilities to drop out of stealth. Am I wrong? Which of these statements is untrue?
It's still a minority. It's presently the current rogue fad, so the numbers are growing, but Executioner rogues are still the vast majority. Personally, I think that playing around with stealth-building skills just isn't as fun as face-stomping people with single target DPS prowess.
Once again, I don't use a perma-stealth build, and you know this. You're better than this. I have a regular Saboteur rouge, who uses intelligent stealth management. There's no "exploitation" involved. I'm not permanently-stealthed, but I do have a long stealth duration and ways to refill it temporarily if the situation gets hairy. That's the purpose of the Saboteur feat tree.
You're better than this. If you're just going to go, "You use this build so that's why you like it", then where else can this conversation go?
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?324111-Build-Guide-quot-INT-Rogue-quot-Perma-Stealth-Build
If you're suggesting that you are regularly fighting rogues with gear worth millions of AD and who never make a single mistake in their stealth rotation, then yeah, I'm going to call you disingenuous. I don't run dungeons or the new gauntlgyrm. I PvP all day, so I know what types of players are doing it. I'm not saying the build is not growing in popularity. I'm simply saying that the person in the video is not representative of your average rogue, let alone your average intelligent rogue. He's using the best, most expensive gear and never makes a single mistake that would break his stealth. He's outright bypassed the limitations of the build through money and skill.
You're better than this. If you really want to talk about what class/build play in this game, I'll be happy to tell you though. Hopefully you'll stop the silly accusations after I do.
When I first started Neverwinter, I looked through the available classes. I generally play melee-types in RPGs and I thought the GWF looked like a stupid Final Fantasy character with his over-sized sword, so my initial choice was down to Guardian Fighter and Trickster Rogue. Eventually I decided on rogue just because I wanted to play a Halfling instead of a Dwarf. Once I choice a rogue I played all the way to sixty without looking at a single build guide or forum thread about how I should build my character. Unfortunately, this made it so that my character was very underpowered. He was a Saboteur rogue with a bunch of misplaced feats and dumb power choices. I was alright in PvE but absolutely sucked in PvP, and I wasn't willing to spend money on a respec because...screw that.
So I made another rogue. This is my "main". This time I min/maxed the cookie-cutter executioner rogue build from the forums. I picked the perfect skills, the perfect enchantments, the perfect powers; I did everything right. And I dominated at everything. I topped the charts in PvP and PvE. I love this guy, he's just perfect. After some time though, I realized that I was outright ignoring the stealth mechanic at times. So I began playing my Saboteur again, and found that if I properly managed stealth, he wasn't terrible. He was actually kind of fun too.
When this new fad of Intelligence Rogues started, I just had to try it. At the point I had made a CW/GWF, but quickly abandoned them because I'm having so much fun trying different rogue builds. Also this was before GWF buff, so it was weak as ****. Anyway, I go to about level 20 before I realized that this build isn't really fun. In order to achieve permanent stealth you have to have Shadow Strike, and you don't get that until you've spent 45 points. That means you have to level all the way 40 or so, while dealing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> damage because you're prioritizing intelligence, movement speed, and recovery instead of dexterity, charisma, armor pen, power, and crit. On top of that, without Shadow Strike, you can't achieve permanent stealth; so the whole purpose of the build is pointless until you reach high levels. Do you know how annoying leveling a rogue is when you don't feel powerful? And then I realized something else...I need at least 2300 recovery at max level to achieve permanent stealth...the cost of which is an amount of AD I have never, and probably will never have. Needless to say, I don't have this character anymore.
So no, capgarnas, I am not defending this build because I'm "selfish" and I "use it too". I'm not even defending this build. What I am defending are regular Saboteurs and even Executioners who rely to skills like Bait and Switch/Shadow Strike to be effective. They don't have perma-stealth but would be nerfed just as hard if these skills were changed. And why? So a minority of rogue players cannot use a build you disagree with anymore? I'm not saying perma-stealth isn't a problem, I'm saying that you're making a mistake by condemning all rogues because of what a few are doing.
What truth? All you said is, "you play the build so you're a big selfish jerk", which isn't true. It will continue to not be true no matter how many times you've said it. I have two level 60 rogues I play and neither one are a perma-stealth build. Hell, I could even screenshot their feats and skills if you think it would prove something.
Been fun Pink.
I know it doesnt matter what point is brought to you. You will defend your class to the last.
Permastealth is broken. You disagree fine. I still say you are being pig headed.
You watch what happens in Gaunt when perma rogues will be carried to exploit 20man PVP. They as you said are growing.
Class is OP Pink. Balance is important to the people who play other classes. Its not this is the striker everyone else suck it,
I know this wasted breath..
I never said I disagreed with permastealth being broken. You're not actually reading what I'm writing or the points I'm making. I'm not the one being pig-headed. You can continue using the deflection tactic of, "It doesn't matter what points I make because you've already made up your mind", and I will continue to point out that you've made no points at all. You accused me of playing the build, I told you this was a lie, and that was the end of that conversation.
Please stop the "I know this is wasted breath" tactic when I'm the only one trying to get an actual discussion out of this thread. I am the one wasting my breath, and I am happy to do so. At least the archives will show that someone was being sensible in this parade of hyperbole and nonsense.
You're just exasperated that someone doesn't agree with you. That's all this is.
So you agree Permastealth is broken. Ty. It wasnt that hard to say was it.
Putting words in people's mouth is not effective debating. I don't have any opinion either way in regards to whether it's broken or not, which you would know if you actually bothered to read anything I wrote in this thread. I'm simply concerned about how any changes to the stealth system would affect rogues who are not using the permastealth build. I'm also pointing out key facts about the build that this thread is outright ignoring, such as the high level of cost and skill involved with making it work as it does in that video.