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Which MMORPH games are the most fun in PvP and what are they doing different than NW

wholyhandgrenadewholyhandgrenade Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited June 2013 in General Discussion (PC)
Wondering which MMORPHs have the most enjoyable and fairly balanced or entertaining PvP systems, and what sets them apart from what Neverwinter is doing. What are the changes needed by NW to bring their PvP systems up to par with the best PvP systems currently out there?
Post edited by wholyhandgrenade on
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  • khatzhaskhatzhas Member Posts: 268 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Some MMOs do PvP better. Some do PvP worse than Neverwinter.
    Problem is, opinion is likely divided on which MMOs have the best PvP because different people like different styles.

    About the only thing that I think everyone can agree that PvP should ideally have is Balance between classes/races/focuses (talent/paragon/feat trees).
    Even then, opinion will likely to be divided as to how much PvE functionality is worth sacrificing for PvP gain, which will depend upon how PvP-focused that person is among other things.
  • mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    khatzhas wrote: »
    About the only thing that I think everyone can agree that PvP should ideally have is Balance between classes/races/focuses (talent/paragon/feat trees).

    Having a dual spec option (even if it is simply one for PvE and one for PvP) together with skills having different scaling in PvE and PvP would make it much easier to achieve this.
  • wholyhandgrenadewholyhandgrenade Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    khatzhas wrote: »
    Some MMOs do PvP better. Some do PvP worse than Neverwinter.
    Problem is, opinion is likely divided on which MMOs have the best PvP because different people like different styles.

    About the only thing that I think everyone can agree that PvP should ideally have is Balance between classes/races/focuses (talent/paragon/feat trees).
    Even then, opinion will likely to be divided as to how much PvE functionality is worth sacrificing for PvP gain, which will depend upon how PvP-focused that person is among other things.


    PvE and PvP need to be separated from one another and treated differently, then PvP won't affect PvE. That is to say, in PvP you would adjust the arena environment to bolster different classes that need bolstering and decrease damage resistance or damage dealt by a percentage, or even by class percentages. You completely separate PvE environments from PvP environments, and then you have leader boards and you keep the classes fair in terms of winning percentages and kills and the like. There is no reason why you can't specifically decrease one classes damage against a specific other classes damage in PvP, or bolster an entire classes damage against everyone else's. You separate out PvE and PvP and then you adjust the play environment to maximize fairness and scores and enjoyability within each. It really is that simple if you have a way to track scoring (a game that doesn't track statistics is a game that has no way of ever having fair play and without fair play there is always going to be a lack of enjoyment).
  • healhamstahealhamsta Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 572 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Wondering which MMORPHs have the most enjoyable and fairly balanced or entertaining PvP systems, and what sets them apart from what Neverwinter is doing. What are the changes needed by NW to bring their PvP systems up to par with the best PvP systems currently out there?

    The game with the best PvP would be FPS games.
    MMORPGs are inherently flawed for PvP.

    However if you really want an MMORPG for the PvP, go for the older ones that has had time to at least balance it a bit.
    Delve loot murdered my TR, DC, & GWF. Nerf Plox:
    I know that it sucks to no longer get gear to sell from the Dungeon Delve chest but it was truly overpowered.
  • clansman2013clansman2013 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    For me, nothing has come close to good PvP since DAoC.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • xellizxelliz Member Posts: 955 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Just to answer the OP question...

    Lineage 2 is my all time favorite PVP experience in MMO's. Open world PVP without factions. Excluding cities and a couple of other resident type places, the entire world is open PVP. You can kill or be killed by anyone, even your own clan and alliance members. There are castle sieges, pvp obtainable Clan Halls and strongholds with set PVP events to allow ownership. Unlike WoW where winning doesn't mean <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, you control these areas for as long as you can keep them and reap the rewards for winning.
    Foundry - Fight Club? (nw-dluqbofu7)
    - JailBreak (in development)
  • wholyhandgrenadewholyhandgrenade Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I used to play Supreme Destiny... that was a fun PvP system. You could attack one another in the game as well as in PvP areas in which case you would be on a side. Every kill you got gave you a permanent point, but who you defeated would also be recorded so you could mark their name and go after them in the game and their point would be erased and added as your point if you then defeated them. The play between classes was pretty even, not perfect by any means, but it was a really fun system. Those who killed you would be marked on your maps, but those you killed and have points from wouldn't be. The more points you got increased your stats, so if you ran up a ton of points your character would be all that much stronger for it. Actually, I think you got 3 points if they were above your level, 2 if they were your level, and 1 if they were below your level or something like that, and if you simply went around killing those under your level you would build negative reputation points which would weaken you or make you drop your equipment when others kill you.
  • swoomustdienowswoomustdienow Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 136 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    For me, nothing has come close to good PvP since DAoC.

    Although I absolutely loved DAoC, the best PvP I have ever had was playing on the Darktide server in Asheron's Call. Darktide may have been the first Survival-Horror game I ever played. ;P

    Right now PvP in this game is just a B-team version of World of Warcraft. Hell, Gaunt is just Lake Wintergrasp but with less players, polishing, and fun.
  • nornsavantnornsavant Member Posts: 311 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Not to be a wet blanket (which of course means I am about to do that very thing) but I don't think we are supposed to mention competing games in the forums.

    I think you can still have this discussion if you don't name names.
  • dkcandydkcandy Member Posts: 1,555 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Best PvP game: Pong

    It's the original Player vs Player, balanced and done right.
  • thestoryteller01thestoryteller01 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Generally I woldn't touch PvP in any Fantasy MMO with a 10 ft pole.

    There is a reason why online-shooters have been invented.
    In case you find my grammar or spelling weird ---> native german speaker ;)
  • llfritzllllfritzll Member Posts: 215 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    the only mmorpg i have ever played with good pvp was daoc, and that was simply because the fights involved so many people that individual class balance never really came into play. also the frontier was massive, it literally took hours to walk across it, so there were so many things happening you could just go somewhere else if you didnt like the current scene.


    modern mmo games try to dumb down pvp to arena style matches, either with objectives or just killing each off faster, and class balance plays a huge factor now.

    because of how mmo games are made, classes are always different and balance is an impossibility, so pvp is always swinging wildly in favor of one class to the next from patch to patch. then people want to be rewarded with pvp gear so no lifers have a built in stat advantage over everyone else.

    it has basically made mmo pvp a joke for dedicated no life players.
  • nalravnalrav Member Posts: 33
    edited June 2013
    Battle of the immortals had really good pvp before they went all <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on the free players. Now its like their other games, wallet vs wallet.
  • wholyhandgrenadewholyhandgrenade Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    nalrav wrote: »
    Battle of the immortals had really good pvp before they went all <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on the free players. Now its like their other games, wallet vs wallet.

    pay to play tends to ruin everything, especially politics
  • sockmunkeysockmunkey Member Posts: 4,622 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Expecting deep meaningful PVP from a Cryptic game is like going to an Apple store for cheap and practical, or to Ferrari for fuel efficient and safe.

    PVP has never been Cryptics strong point. One only needs to look at PVP community in STO or CO, and see how poorly they have been treated, to know this. There are aspects of Cryptic games where they excel, It's just not PVP.

    You can beat your chest and debate things in the hope something magically is going to change. Or you can simply look at, a demonstrated history, that goes back for years now. And understand it is never going to change.
  • clcmercyclcmercy Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 308 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    There are no MMO's that have good, engaging PvP. The only games that have good PvP are the games solely devoted to PvP, IE LoL and the like. CoD. That genre.

    Also, games that keep the PvE and PvP separate, like the various RTS platforms. My favorite among those are the command and conquer series.

    Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
  • hobieonehobieone Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    i 'd have to say pvp wise both guild wars one and guild war 2 are better. mainly as you have separate skills for pve and pvp and they can be balanced without affecting the other.
  • hobieonehobieone Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    clcmercy wrote: »
    There are no MMO's that have good, engaging PvP. The only games that have good PvP are the games solely devoted to PvP, IE LoL and the like. CoD. That genre.

    Also, games that keep the PvE and PvP separate, like the various RTS platforms. My favorite among those are the command and conquer series.

    your both right and wrong. right in games dedicated to pvp such as call of duty are much better. but wrong as thier is an mmo that is dedicated and built completetly around pvp and that mmo is eve online.
  • llfritzllllfritzll Member Posts: 215 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    hobieone wrote: »
    i 'd have to say pvp wise both guild wars one and guild war 2 are better. mainly as you have separate skills for pve and pvp and they can be balanced without affecting the other.

    i would disagree on guild wars 2 at least.

    the game is another arena style pvp setup, matches with objectives or killing each other on small teams, and they leave classes broken and underperforming for 6+ months at a time. they really do not care about their game.
  • clcmercyclcmercy Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 308 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    hobieone wrote: »
    your both right and wrong. right in games dedicated to pvp such as call of duty are much better. but wrong as thier is an mmo that is dedicated and built completetly around pvp and that mmo is eve online.

    Then go to their forum boards and see if the players don't complain about some factor of PvP. Go ahead, I'll wait.



    .........................

    Didn't think so. I went to check before even making this post. Even Eve Online, centered around PvP, still has the regular rundown of complaints, ergo, they are not "doing it right". So I stand by my statement. NO mmo should have PvP. NONE. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

    Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
  • kymahrikymahri Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    For me, nothing has come close to good PvP since DAoC.

    By far the best PvP of an mmo, so far out of all my mmo ventures, nothing has come close.
    If I died tomorrow, would you remember my accomplishments, or my failures....
    ~Kymahri~
  • hobieonehobieone Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    this is true and why i stopped playing gw2. but i do like the fact that skills for pve and pvp are separate that way when they do balance them. it nerfs or buffs the pvp side and doesn't screw up pve side in the process.

    many times in different mmos i have seen devs balance skills so pvp is even but then the same skills are either overpowered or nerfed to far to be of any use in pve or vise versa. hence is why i support ideas that keeps both sides of the game separate. to bad cryptic devs couldn't build into the game a way to have two separate char builds/skill trees per char one for pvp the other pve. i believe they are doing something like that in rift. but i could be wrong
  • hobieonehobieone Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    clcmercy wrote: »
    Then go to their forum boards and see if the players don't complain about some factor of PvP. Go ahead, I'll wait.



    .........................

    Didn't think so. I went to check before even making this post. Even Eve Online, centered around PvP, still has the regular rundown of complaints, ergo, they are not "doing it right". So I stand by my statement. NO mmo should have PvP. NONE. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

    yes they always complaining about stuff in pvp. my point being eve online is an mmo dedicated to pvp not pve even tho it has a little in it. but even games like call of duty there are tons of people complaining about the same issues that i hear about mmo pvp. think they aren't doing enough about aim bots that still get through their protections or why do they let people move in unrealistic ways like jumping around like bunny rabbits. point you don't get away from it. pvp only games have the same complaints in some cases most don't hear of them because those companies stopped having official forums for their games.

    thinking about this i think the best pvp i played are combat flight flight simulator such as rise of flight(ww1) and war thunder(ww2) they take a lot more skill than call of duty. have to manage your aircraft limited ammo your out till you land, think three dimensional, deflection angles, position.
    and of they even have their share of people whining as well
  • willsommerswillsommers Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 103
    edited June 2013
    Never really found MMO PVP any fun at all. Rather FPS PVP.

    The addition of PVP seems forced in MMOs. Like single players games that add multiplayer pvp to try and appeal to the younger crowd.
  • kilo418kilo418 Member Posts: 823 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    You may see what you are looking for revealed at an event on August 2nd.....
  • torskaldrtorskaldr Member Posts: 559 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Lineage. That was the best pvp I've ever played in an mmo.

    I'm not interested in open world pvp anymore so the best pvp for me now is the optional type.
  • enzothecrowenzothecrow Member Posts: 3
    edited June 2013
    I really loved the PVP in Jade Dynasty. (It's a PWE game.) Mainly because like any game, gear plays a part, but you have a wide selection of skills and classes, allowing many different unique builds, playstyles, and tactics. Which always make for interesting PVP, never know what someone might do. (Also because the skills re very cool and flashy.)
    Truth be told, PVP is never balanced in any game ever, does not matter what type of game, it is NEVER balanced.
    As a hardcore PVPer, I actually like that.. I get a kick out of using the more weaker choices and managing to be just as good lol.

    A perfectly balanced PVP in any game would be kinda boring.. Besides, when is Player VS Player - Person VS Person ever truly fair? Even in real life situations, someone always has some type of advantage or disadvantage.
  • enderlin50enderlin50 Member Posts: 993 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I'm very addicted to NW pvp. It's limited, only one type, balance issues but I love it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • gambitclickgambitclick Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 239 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    The most fun I've had PvP'ing in a MMO would be Age of Conan. That game's PvP was simply amazing. Visceral, fast-paced, addicting, and skill-based action combat with COMBOS. It's similar to the combat system in Neverwinter but with lots of combos you need to chain into, along with blood, gore, and decapitations. The PvP alone in AoC kept me playing that piece of sh*t game (yes, even worse than Neverwinter) for about 7 months (it wasn't free to play either). And they didn't even have an arena type game mode specifically for PvP. You just PvP'd anywhere you could find people out in the open world, mainly in the highest level zone.

    Other notable MMOs that had good PvP was Rift, Aion, Guild Wars 1 and 2. Rift's PvP was great fun but imbalanced due to OP classes and it was very gear dependent. Not sure if they balanced the PvP, since I quit 8 months after launch, but I had a lot of fun with Rift's PvP. Tons of build variations and class synergy made Rift's PvP extremely fun. Oh, and it had open world PvP, which I always enjoy.

    Aion's PvP was also very fun. It had a decent combo system too, but the rest of the game was too grindy for me. Guild Wars 1 had perhaps the most balanced PvP I've seen in a MMO and the most diverse amount of builds given to the players. That's because ArenaNet took the PvP in that game very seriously for years, trying their best to balance it as much as possible. They separated PvP and PvE skills. I wish other MMOs did the same. Guild Wars 2's WvW was very fun for me, but there was too many problems that took too long for them to fix for me to stay with that game.

    Neverwinter's PvP is fun for like half an hour, then it gets boring because it's just a 2/3 shot and CC fest. Too much imbalance and overpowered skills for PvP in this game to be any fun in the long term. Mounts should not be allowed either, except for in the 20 man GG PvP arena. There also needs to be diminishing returns so that certain classes can't CC you to death with no possible chance to fight back. This game's PvP is simply too flawed in its current state.
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