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Why would a party take a GWF over a 2nd CW?
rashylewizz
Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
I am not trying to hate on GWF (and possible lump GF to the group), but I really want to know how they contribute to T2 dungeons. From my experience,
- CWs control adds so much better,
- share aggro better because of it
- are invaluable in knocking off mobs in certain dungeons/boss fights (CN is a CW's game).
- able to effectively help DPS the boss while controlling adds using Ray of Enfeeblement
When I party up with PUGs, they always question why I would take a second CW over a GWF but from my experience a second CW makes the dungeon and boss fights so much easier while a GWF (even highly geared ones) does not contribute much.
Now obviously, one would take a 12k GS GWF over a 8.3k GS CW but what are your guys thoughts?
- CWs control adds so much better,
- share aggro better because of it
- are invaluable in knocking off mobs in certain dungeons/boss fights (CN is a CW's game).
- able to effectively help DPS the boss while controlling adds using Ray of Enfeeblement
When I party up with PUGs, they always question why I would take a second CW over a GWF but from my experience a second CW makes the dungeon and boss fights so much easier while a GWF (even highly geared ones) does not contribute much.
Now obviously, one would take a 12k GS GWF over a 8.3k GS CW but what are your guys thoughts?
Post edited by rashylewizz on
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_UgM8dF5B0&t=52m45s
Then pick your jaw up off the ground after...
GWF is highly underrated post-patch.
Lol is that it? sorry pathetic for one if your only doing 1CW theres no reason to not run Grasp in Mastery for faster AP bars / better mob positioning control. He plays a decent CW but running Enfeeble in mastery slot has always been fail (maybe except in pvp) due to the increased cooldown time per stack you get more uptime by having it in a normal slot at 7 or so second cooldown (depending on recovery) as opposed to 2stack at 14second cooldown. If your just bumping mobs on last boss you can spam AS way way way way way faster than this wizard, while still running conduit (or enfeeble)for the debuff for the melee. Also how are we suppose to be impressed by the GWF in this group when he DIES on the dracolich + multiple wipes? Sorry but this fight is easy, taking GWF just makes it harder on your group by allowing a class in the party that doesnt bring enough to the table like lets say any of the other classes in the game.
My hats off to this group for doing it post nerf with a "balanced" group aka bringing 1 of each. But this fight can be alot easier if you do it a diffrent way / not use a GWF, or sometimes even a GF at all. Anyone who thinks diffrent and that bringing a GWF or GF makes these fights easier obviously hasnt been running with good CW's . Sorry but the CC cliffing in this game is far stronger than any amount of additional dmg reduction the so-called "tank" classes have to offer when your up against fighting endless add-spawn bosses, which oh yea is every boss in this game.
Bring a GF - better self sustain and dmg a GF that uses F.Recovery is nigh unkillable on boss fights so long as hes not brain dead, while still bringing good ST dmg abilities
TR- ok well TR dont stack very well but still.... they are a TR
CW - even if not using double repel, 2 CW with just normal bumping will ensure those pesky adds dont stay on the platform long, also moar debuffs!
DC - more healing, yea ASheild doesnt stack any longer but more healing and now 100% uptime on AS by the clerics cycling it makes an easy fight laughable
As much as the GWF in that video did a great job, there are an exponential amount of videos of CWs doing the job much better (even soloing).
I would also like to clump GFs in that category. I have observed that most of the time, doubling up on the big 3 (TR/CW/DC) is much more efficient and effective than hiring another class.
I am not advocating shunning out GWFs and GFs from any party. If the core (TR/CW/DC) is capable enough of carrying the dungeon, then by all means extend the hand of friendship and help out that GWF/GF in need but what I am wondering is why the general notion is most PUGs that they need a GWF/GF instead of a second CW (insofar as to request kicking the second CW joining the group).
I wanted to see what others would say before I posted, because I wasn't sure if you were serious or being sarcastic. Actually I still don't so I am not going to criticize or even comment on the video. But I will say this. If we are comparing a GWF with a CW for the sake of filling in 5th spot, then I do not see the advantage of a GWF. But For example if the group already had 2 CWS and there is no tank, then I think a GWF would make a good fit, not for the AoE, and certainly not for the CC, but at the very least as the first man to rush in a group buying a few seconds for the squishy CWs to get into position and start their rotation.
I play a GWF as well. While fun, "Come and Get It" is extremely limited. Maybe because my main is a CW so I am comparing it to Singularity. The truth is, it doesn't even compare. This power actually needs a major buff for me personally to consider it worthwhile. I honestly prefer Roar, Daring Shout, and even Battle Fury over CaGi.
If I had a say on how GWF should be fixed, it would certainly start with their SHOUTS and give them truely unique effects that would create a niche for the class. There is definitely room for a party buffer and/or group debuffer role. And if that is the case, then I would even argue for the complete nerf of Plague Fires and transferring these debuffs to the GWF's SHOUTS.
GF can run and tank the first few seconds like you said, but 3 CWs with Entangling, Arcane Singularity, Steal Time?
Not to mention constantly double-debuffing the boss with Enfeeblement....
One of the CWs could specialize in single target DPS while still having Arcane and 1 crucial CC skill at their back pocket.....
You realize that some CW's run Ray on mastery because of TR's Bleed crits right? Higher the bleed crit = shorter duration of fight. I'm sorry but if you're spamming EF on mastery for AP with a GF, you're knocking way too often. Plus shield KB + teleport equals unlimited shield???.....
I can understand RoE on bosses, eventhough after the update it is bugged with certain feats. But why on trash? Why waste a mastery slot for a Single Target Debuff to benefit ONE class. And how do you know he is going to be able to attack the one that you debuffed when there are 10+ mobs on top of each other?
No one mentioned trash (boss fight only I see showing)? Of course your run chill strike on tab for trash.
I am taking it as further evidence to my suspicion that a 3rd and possibly even 4th CW is arguably better or at least competitively efficient over a GWF or GF
Bleeds base tick dmg is calculated by your attack modifiers including buffs like hallowed ground, divine glow, linked spirit, combat advantage etc.
Dmg resistance debuffs work after the bleed is already on, thats why the bleed doesn't tick for the same amount even if you don't loose it. Go and test it if you got a TR yourself and use wicked reminder while keeping your bleed.
Regarding RoE on mastery:
RoE on mastery got a fixed non reduced CD of 15s while the effect didn't stacked pre-patch (even though the tooltip says so) - not sure if fixed post-patch. RoE on encounter slot got for me 8.5s CD with ~53% recharge.
1min fight
RoE mastery = 6 times
RoE normal slot = 7 times
10min fight
RoE mastery = 42 times
RoE normal slot = 71 times
while draco normal takes 10min or longer. So normal encounter slot > mastery slot.
Sure, EF on mastery is not completly needed with high AP reg + feats but still nice to have just in case you fail a knock. I prefer knocking smaller amounts of mobs when its ready instead of taking the risk to fail a bigger one by e.g. a random knockback, lag or just human mistake. Esp with the "nerfed" or bugged shield CD its more risky to fail if its a larger group.
I wouldn't confuse control with aggro management. It's one thing to freeze mobs or use Singularity on them and drop them off cliffs. It's another thing to actually keep mobs off the CW/rogue or cleric while they do their job, to give GFs a few moments to breathe and recharge their block, or to give everyone else a chance to heal up/raise allies/regroup/reposition. All the while doing massive AoE damage. The difference is particularly noticeable post-patch, what with the aggro fixes.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
A CW who knows his class is an even better secondary defender with Steal Time, Entangling Force, Shield and Arcane Singularity.
Need help DPS? That CW can use Enfeeblement as the 4th skill + Renegade to debuff the boss and buff fellow players.
That secondary CW can actually aggro mobs better than GWFs and GFs if they know how to play and have been using the control skills well.
Good try rationalizing how GWFs and GFs won't suck as much and aren't useless but I'd rather take a second CW.
Post before makes a good point though about not sharing loot maybe thats it.
ive seen people spamming for ages to get their dungeon groups together. being that picky because you think more CW is the perfect group is just going to have you sitting on your hands all night.
dont get me wrong, my CW is currently my favorite class, im just being realistic. and please dont say this one time when the rainbow lined up you found the pot of gold... lol.
I don't know what you are talking about though. GWFs are great, i would prefer 1 GWF and 1 rouge (with the 2cw and 1 dc comp)
Being a CW, if I had to choose taking another CW of GWF I would definitely take GWF.
Reason is simple. 2 CW teams became a norm when people didn't know yet how to play this class and what to spec so their lack of efficiency in controlling mobs had to be made up for with team composition.
Currently, if you have in your team one CW with decent recovery, he is able to cast AS (or any other mass control daily) literally every few seconds in most encounters. Another one is not only useless then but also annoying because he keeps casting same spells same time (two AS blackholes same time is a common view, especially in pugs). I'd rather have GWF who can do his job not disturbing me from what I do.
Only exception is last CN boss fight when another CW is very useful in case pushing mobs off happened to be unsuccessful, due to red zones appearing just under your feet.
Any CW worth their salt would also debuff the boss using enfeeblement and renegade passive as well as provide yet another Arcane Singularity, steal time, share aggro much better.
Yes you are correct though that an elite veteran GWF with 13k GS is more helpful than a 8.3k newbie CW who has their skills all mixed up. I am not disputing that nor am I saying GWF are completely useless
Like I said before, if the big 3 (CW,DC,DPS) can carry the team, then by all means help out that poor GWF in need of a group but I am wondering why people would get mad or kick that 2nd or 3rd incoming CW in order to get a GWF?
(the people complaining aren't usually the CW who are doing it because they don't wanna share loot)