1. get rid of fast travel
2. get rid of "end game" - it should be about the journey, not the destination
3. different races should have starting cities far away from each other - it should be rare to see, say, a lvl 10 dwarf in a human city
4. loot should be harder to get - no guaranteed rare items ever, off anything
That should get rid of most of the kiddies. Thoughts?
Sounds like ESO.
Frankly I don't see the point of 1 or 3, 1 is just adding a dull journey onto every single quest, there should be faster travel options, like carts that charge you to use them or horses that speed up your travel significantly. I can't see any justification for 3 at all except if your storyline demands it.
You haven't said what people are supposed to do at endgame either. Especially since in any game, no matter how hard it is to finish you'll have people who have finished it within 2-3 months.
RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
1. get rid of fast travel
2. get rid of "end game" - it should be about the journey, not the destination
3. different races should have starting cities far away from each other - it should be rare to see, say, a lvl 10 dwarf in a human city
4. loot should be harder to get - no guaranteed rare items ever, off anything
That should get rid of most of the kiddies. Thoughts?
1. If you aren't going to have fast travel, then the world better be realistically scaled - it should take days or even weeks to get to your destination - which of course must be done in real time, and you should have to worry about food and going to the bathroom too.
2. It is silly to think that there isn't going to be an "end game" of some sort - players can burn through content faster than devs can put it out, so the only way to deal with that is to either have some sort of random encounter system, (which just gets boring after a while), or to provide repeatable content at the highest level.
3. At least in Neverwinter's case, the city is sort of a melting pot, and the intro story explains why you're there, (even though you can set your city of origin as being elsewhere). More to the point, all that serves to do is spread your playerbase more thinly and add on another development expense.
4. Players shouldn't be guaranteed rare items insomuch as you run the dungeon and you *always* get X piece of rare gear, but they should be rewarded with more than trash drops for their time invested. The guaranteed seal drops that NW has is a good start, but what you can turn them in for should be expanded and improved a little.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
There is a reason EQ isnt king of MMOs anymore. Even EQ backed off its Eq'ness ages ago. Games are meant to be fun and REWARDING, not punishment. The days of beating ones head against a game, loosing over and over again in a struggle to beat it just so you can get a "You win" flash on the screen for 5 seconds, is long gone. And I really don't have a problem with that.
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nectarprimeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Or you could just go play Everquest its still available and free to play i think.
Personally I never got into that game mostly because I'd rather strangle myself to death with my mouse cord then suffer that horrible play control and the whole sitting in one spot 24/7 for days on end to camp a monster spawn and GM reporting people who tried to steal the "spawn" that was kind of a turn off to. To each their own I suppose would be nice if former EQ players did not make this exact same thread over and over in every new MMO forums ever and forever.
WoW is thata way >>>>>
Some people like a challenge and don't want everything handed to them.
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nectarprimeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There is a reason EQ isnt king of MMOs anymore. Even EQ backed off its Eq'ness ages ago. Games are meant to be fun and REWARDING, not punishment. The days of beating ones head against a game, loosing over and over again in a struggle to beat it just so you can get a "You win" flash on the screen for 5 seconds, is long gone. And I really don't have a problem with that.
So now we have games like these new MMOs which tell you YOU WIN every 10 minutes.
I prefer a challenge. I like games that punish you for mistakes.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
First of all I don't like that you are saying that it's kiddies that are the trouble, you're probably younger than me. Secondly, getting rid of purples not likely we already have another game with terrible 1999 loot tables and algorithms, its called GW2, they are finally getting to realize this doesn't fly with today's crowd. NW does not need that let me tell you going backwards does not make a better game.
Also, travel points are necessary however i do like how they make mounts necessary in this title.
I disagree. MMOs are just too hard. A lot of the games have been streamlined so players can make it to end game in a matter of months as opposed to years. But once you make it there, you realize there is constant grinding for more powerful items that never seem to end. For the first time MMO consumer, they wont get burnt out before they reach that point. Then they come to the realization that the grinding has only just begun.
Ive played enough MMOs to not have to make it to end game to understand where the game will ultimately lead. I can play for a few hours and determine that the game will just be an endless grind for more gear, more enchants, and more upgrades. Something I dont wish to do.
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silknightMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 199
1. get rid of fast travel
2. get rid of "end game" - it should be about the journey, not the destination
3. different races should have starting cities far away from each other - it should be rare to see, say, a lvl 10 dwarf in a human city
4. loot should be harder to get - no guaranteed rare items ever, off anything
That should get rid of most of the kiddies. Thoughts?
1. If you aren't going to have fast travel, then the world better be realistically scaled - it should take days or even weeks to get to your destination - which of course must be done in real time, and you should have to worry about food and going to the bathroom too.
2. It is silly to think that there isn't going to be an "end game" of some sort - players can burn through content faster than devs can put it out, so the only way to deal with that is to either have some sort of random encounter system, (which just gets boring after a while), or to provide repeatable content at the highest level.
3. At least in Neverwinter's case, the city is sort of a melting pot, and the intro story explains why you're there, (even though you can set your city of origin as being elsewhere). More to the point, all that serves to do is spread your playerbase more thinly and add on another development expense.
4. Players shouldn't be guaranteed rare items insomuch as you run the dungeon and you *always* get X piece of rare gear, but they should be rewarded with more than trash drops for their time invested. The guaranteed seal drops that NW has is a good start, but what you can turn them in for should be expanded and improved a little.
As to #3 ... given a major city in the Forgotten Realms, in canon, it can pretty well be stipulated that you are going to have a diverse population made up of most of the races in the world. Particularly the most common races to be found. Which is to say, that any major population center does, indeed, become a melting pot. Also, given underlying "mechanics" or philosophies in DnD ... adventurers go, indeed, flock to, the major centers to find opportunities for adventure and employment.
Nothing wrong with wanting/making a niche MMO that caters to a specific crowd. Sometimes the ones that try and cater to everyone for profits are the ones that fail.
Nothing wrong with wanting a niche MMO.
Having enough players in the niche to support an MMO worth playing is highly unlikely.
Shadowbane comes to mind. As does its legacy, Wizard101.
In my opinion, mmo's have become nothing but grind games, they are about gear and bragging rights. Now in todays market we have PVE/PVP being forced into the same game mechanics when they do not really co-exist smoothly. Also mmo's where based "loosly" on RPG's, it was about character building, character progression, In todays market, the "completed" character has become the "end game."
In reality an mmo should not have "end game." the game is about exploration, about adventure, the stories that you live. and most importantly having fun with friends and or family in an virtual world of magic and wonder.
after all, what makes you, YOU? your car? your house? your shoes? or is it the life you have lived that has created you? are you ever complete as a person?
i do not think it is about catering to "niche" gamers, so much as changing, or correcting the perception what an mmo should and can be.
so in reality it is not fast travel, or raids, or "end game" that is the problem, it is our perception, coupled with out Expectations and the market that has created this endless grind fest in games for gear that they call "end game". with f2p games having so much success it will be harder to break this trend of grind fest games just to play "end game." the F2P econmic model encourages games to be produced fast and cheap, and getting them to market. thus it forces repetive game play with very little inovation or content.
now neverwinter I feel has fun game play, and with the foundry a great idea to break some of the misconceptions of the mmo"RPG" genre. unfortunatly the foundry is much much to limiting. and the economic model will not help this game break any new ground in inovation. in the end, the game is like so many others, race to max level, grind for best gear.
1. get rid of fast travel
2. get rid of "end game" - it should be about the journey, not the destination
3. different races should have starting cities far away from each other - it should be rare to see, say, a lvl 10 dwarf in a human city
4. loot should be harder to get - no guaranteed rare items ever, off anything
That should get rid of most of the kiddies. Thoughts?
So you want to get rid of 90% of the NW population , then only you and the RPers will play with eachothers ...swords .
1. get rid of fast travel
2. get rid of "end game" - it should be about the journey, not the destination
3. different races should have starting cities far away from each other - it should be rare to see, say, a lvl 10 dwarf in a human city
4. loot should be harder to get - no guaranteed rare items ever, off anything
That should get rid of most of the kiddies. Thoughts?
1. well, "fast travel" is a way to say the game is made of zones, I don't like it either, but it is easier to do, easier to fix bugs, easier to make quest with more focus to the story of each zone, and ofc, demand less from pcs (bot to develop and for players to play)... so is sad, but technically is understandable, most games nowadays are using this
2. also agree, but is hard to make a game that doesn't have an "end" (being an end on the story or a lvl cap), but the game is still on Beta, not all content is available, so we have to wait to see how the content will be treated, I would like a Champions Online experience where side stories, events and things like that pull you away from the "story grinding" constantly
3. is cool to have that in game, but it can make some cities over-populated and some empty ones, also it needs way more game design for that to work well... especially in this game, when the focus is the Neverwinter city, a "prelude" would not hurt, but remember that we choose where we are from and what we were/are there, so a refugiee or a noble, that would be kinda complex to make it work to every city/race/class and choice you made... can be done though in the future
I know what end-game is, and how it should be reached with a longer journey then most other games. And a MMO never does end, things are always in development and if you can keep the pace that a player progresses to be longer then it takes to develop something then congrats for you. But there are people out there who will power game to get to the end of the current dev cycle. Do you alienate them and give them nothing to do then?
No, you create a system of diminishing returns so that a power gamer playing 24 hours a day would take at least 10 years to cap every possible upgrade to his character (and that is only if you decided to put a cap on every ability since some things don't need to have a cap). Like in real life, a good character should never reach a point where they are incapable of growing. There is always more to learn and more skills that can be better mastered.
Frankly I don't see the point of 1 or 3, 1 is just adding a dull journey onto every single quest, there should be faster travel options, like carts that charge you to use them or horses that speed up your travel significantly.
Fast travel is nice, but it makes the world feel small. I have never felt like an MMO was a big as the old ones I used to play, not because they are necessarily smaller, but the ability to teleport great distances makes the game feel smaller. I totally understand people that do not think it is worth it and prefer to have instant travel, but there is something very nice about playing in a world that feels huge.
There is a reason EQ isnt king of MMOs anymore. Even EQ backed off its Eq'ness ages ago. Games are meant to be fun and REWARDING, not punishment. The days of beating ones head against a game, loosing over and over again in a struggle to beat it just so you can get a "You win" flash on the screen for 5 seconds, is long gone. And I really don't have a problem with that.
It is true that Everquest had some serious problems (which is why people post in newer MMO's that they want a game with Everquest-like features and do not simply play Everquest itself), but it did have some good qualities. You notice that the original poster did not request crushing death penalties (with huge amounts of experience and level loss along with naked runs to your corpse) nor did he request having to sit for 10 minutes to refill your mana bar after you have fully drained it at high levels. Everquest had some good qualities that would be nice to see in other games, but there are very good reasons why I will never play it again.
Comments
The problem here is all avenues tried have been complained about to no end.
Grind for higher tier level loot. People complain about grind - they feel entitled to the loot, but dont want to actually play the game to go get it.
So then what? Pay for loot? Then its right back to complaining about how there is no end game.
Catch 22. Damned if they do, damned if they dont.
Frankly I don't see the point of 1 or 3, 1 is just adding a dull journey onto every single quest, there should be faster travel options, like carts that charge you to use them or horses that speed up your travel significantly. I can't see any justification for 3 at all except if your storyline demands it.
You haven't said what people are supposed to do at endgame either. Especially since in any game, no matter how hard it is to finish you'll have people who have finished it within 2-3 months.
1. If you aren't going to have fast travel, then the world better be realistically scaled - it should take days or even weeks to get to your destination - which of course must be done in real time, and you should have to worry about food and going to the bathroom too.
2. It is silly to think that there isn't going to be an "end game" of some sort - players can burn through content faster than devs can put it out, so the only way to deal with that is to either have some sort of random encounter system, (which just gets boring after a while), or to provide repeatable content at the highest level.
3. At least in Neverwinter's case, the city is sort of a melting pot, and the intro story explains why you're there, (even though you can set your city of origin as being elsewhere). More to the point, all that serves to do is spread your playerbase more thinly and add on another development expense.
4. Players shouldn't be guaranteed rare items insomuch as you run the dungeon and you *always* get X piece of rare gear, but they should be rewarded with more than trash drops for their time invested. The guaranteed seal drops that NW has is a good start, but what you can turn them in for should be expanded and improved a little.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
WoW is thata way >>>>>
Some people like a challenge and don't want everything handed to them.
So now we have games like these new MMOs which tell you YOU WIN every 10 minutes.
I prefer a challenge. I like games that punish you for mistakes.
Also, travel points are necessary however i do like how they make mounts necessary in this title.
Ive played enough MMOs to not have to make it to end game to understand where the game will ultimately lead. I can play for a few hours and determine that the game will just be an endless grind for more gear, more enchants, and more upgrades. Something I dont wish to do.
As to #3 ... given a major city in the Forgotten Realms, in canon, it can pretty well be stipulated that you are going to have a diverse population made up of most of the races in the world. Particularly the most common races to be found. Which is to say, that any major population center does, indeed, become a melting pot. Also, given underlying "mechanics" or philosophies in DnD ... adventurers go, indeed, flock to, the major centers to find opportunities for adventure and employment.
Lottie
Having enough players in the niche to support an MMO worth playing is highly unlikely.
Shadowbane comes to mind. As does its legacy, Wizard101.
In reality an mmo should not have "end game." the game is about exploration, about adventure, the stories that you live. and most importantly having fun with friends and or family in an virtual world of magic and wonder.
after all, what makes you, YOU? your car? your house? your shoes? or is it the life you have lived that has created you? are you ever complete as a person?
i do not think it is about catering to "niche" gamers, so much as changing, or correcting the perception what an mmo should and can be.
so in reality it is not fast travel, or raids, or "end game" that is the problem, it is our perception, coupled with out Expectations and the market that has created this endless grind fest in games for gear that they call "end game". with f2p games having so much success it will be harder to break this trend of grind fest games just to play "end game." the F2P econmic model encourages games to be produced fast and cheap, and getting them to market. thus it forces repetive game play with very little inovation or content.
now neverwinter I feel has fun game play, and with the foundry a great idea to break some of the misconceptions of the mmo"RPG" genre. unfortunatly the foundry is much much to limiting. and the economic model will not help this game break any new ground in inovation. in the end, the game is like so many others, race to max level, grind for best gear.
Well it sounds like this isnt the game for you then. Sorry to see you leave.
So you want to get rid of 90% of the NW population , then only you and the RPers will play with eachothers ...swords .
1. well, "fast travel" is a way to say the game is made of zones, I don't like it either, but it is easier to do, easier to fix bugs, easier to make quest with more focus to the story of each zone, and ofc, demand less from pcs (bot to develop and for players to play)... so is sad, but technically is understandable, most games nowadays are using this
2. also agree, but is hard to make a game that doesn't have an "end" (being an end on the story or a lvl cap), but the game is still on Beta, not all content is available, so we have to wait to see how the content will be treated, I would like a Champions Online experience where side stories, events and things like that pull you away from the "story grinding" constantly
3. is cool to have that in game, but it can make some cities over-populated and some empty ones, also it needs way more game design for that to work well... especially in this game, when the focus is the Neverwinter city, a "prelude" would not hurt, but remember that we choose where we are from and what we were/are there, so a refugiee or a noble, that would be kinda complex to make it work to every city/race/class and choice you made... can be done though in the future
4. don't care xD
No, you create a system of diminishing returns so that a power gamer playing 24 hours a day would take at least 10 years to cap every possible upgrade to his character (and that is only if you decided to put a cap on every ability since some things don't need to have a cap). Like in real life, a good character should never reach a point where they are incapable of growing. There is always more to learn and more skills that can be better mastered.
Fast travel is nice, but it makes the world feel small. I have never felt like an MMO was a big as the old ones I used to play, not because they are necessarily smaller, but the ability to teleport great distances makes the game feel smaller. I totally understand people that do not think it is worth it and prefer to have instant travel, but there is something very nice about playing in a world that feels huge.
It is true that Everquest had some serious problems (which is why people post in newer MMO's that they want a game with Everquest-like features and do not simply play Everquest itself), but it did have some good qualities. You notice that the original poster did not request crushing death penalties (with huge amounts of experience and level loss along with naked runs to your corpse) nor did he request having to sit for 10 minutes to refill your mana bar after you have fully drained it at high levels. Everquest had some good qualities that would be nice to see in other games, but there are very good reasons why I will never play it again.