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Righteousness, Clerics, and future leader classes.

dominemesisdominemesis Member Posts: 269 Arc User
edited June 2013 in The Temple
So my question is this: Is righteousness here to stay? If so will this curse be applied to all future leader classes as well?

As it stands Cleric healing is pretty lackluster. Before the patch, it was all pretty much about AS, now that this ability has been nerfed hard, the other worthless healing tools aren't making up the difference, and to add insult to injury, and for no good reason, clerics have the pointlessly punishing righteousness debuff as a class feature FFS.

If you fix everything else that is wrong with clerics, I still wouldn't bother playing one as long as righteousness exists. That just needs to go away, and if it or something like it should become standard on any leader class that heals, then I won't be playing those either. Seriously this is ridiculous.

If it is a PVP issue, just please balance PVP separate from the rest of the game. It is a no win, impossible, WOW can't even do it, Kobayashi Maru situation to try to balance pvp and pve in class based RPGs period.

So I am imploring you Cryptic, please buff cleric healing and abandon Righteousness so that clerics are worth playing. Thanks.
Post edited by dominemesis on

Comments

  • rnewton8rnewton8 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 131 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Agreed. Rightousness is total bullkitten.. 40% reduction.. it should be the otehr way around.. if anything it should increase our outgoing healing to ourselves since we are squishy as hell. and we dont too many self heals.. say i run AS and FF, well neither one of those is going to be healing me because i wont be close enough to where those are going off.
  • kiraliakiralia Member Posts: 383 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Righteousness isn't about pvp, its about making sure we use plenty of potions because during the early betas apparently some idiots complained we didnt use enough.
  • huas31rhuas31r Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    kiralia wrote: »
    Righteousness isn't about pvp, its about making sure we use plenty of potions because during the early betas apparently some idiots complained we didnt use enough.

    Actually it was because in closed Beta Clerics could solo everything because they could heal tank everything. (which made them better tanks than Guardian Fighters). So they nerfed self healing so clerics couldn't pull double duty.

    So technically it's not a nerf. It was a class fix. So gonna go out on a limb here and say something childish, "Deal with it."
  • ramzay81ramzay81 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    huas31r wrote: »
    Actually it was because in closed Beta Clerics could solo everything because they could heal tank everything. (which made them better tanks than Guardian Fighters). So they nerfed self healing so clerics couldn't pull double duty.

    So technically it's not a nerf. It was a class fix. So gonna go out on a limb here and say something childish, "Deal with it."

    A class fix would be to actually fix how aggro works in this game, rather than nerfing the healing classes' heals. Could also do what most other smart games do, which is make clerics squishier than GFs.
  • tahera1tahera1 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    kiralia wrote: »
    Righteousness isn't about pvp, its about making sure we use plenty of potions because during the early betas apparently some idiots complained we didnt use enough.

    I agree it's not about PvP but it's not about any posts on any forums either. Call me cynical, but AFAICT it's part of the business model. Players who play Cleric aren't meant to be exempt from needing to use potions(/healthstones.) Powerful direct heals aren't likely to come, as they would be directly competitive. Hence the focus on mitigation rather than regeneration; i.e. the best you can do is reduce how many potions you'll need, not eliminate the need entirely.
    From a business standpoint it makes perfect sense.
  • torridtempertorridtemper Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I don't think it's so bad to need to use a potion here and there, but the reduction makes us all the more reliant upon our teammates. Trying to support them and ourselves is hard to balance already. This makes it tougher.
  • zephryl1zephryl1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 220 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Actually, I believe it's a part of the DC class in 4th edition that their Heals are less Effective on themselves. I dunno about 40%, but it's a legit thing.

    It is, however, frustrating as all hell. At least with the Aggro fixed it shouldn't be a huge problem anymore, just an annoyance.
  • yuinojiyuinoji Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    heh, righteousness isn't a big issue as long as aggro issue is fix

    ya know, adds spam . . we got aggro with no reason -_-'
  • kiraliakiralia Member Posts: 383 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/249375

    An extract from the Q & A with developer Grant Allen ("Cryptic_LordAzrael) from the above link

    "Regarding Cleric self heals, they will likely remain fairly minor for the Cleric. This is to help balance the fact that Clerics don't need to use as many health potions as other classes. Before the self heal reduction, Clerics would pretty much always have more gold than all other classes.

    It was also creating situations where Clerics would just self heal tank through encounters.

    So as unfortunate as the reduction is, it does make you a more concerned with taking damage in combat, which hopefully leads to a more satisfying experience at the end of the day."

    So yeah nothing to do with pvp, lots to do with wanting them to use more potions (and health stones!) and a side nod towards self healing tank avoidance which gave me the distinct impression the pot chugging was the main reason.

    Where in 4th edition are you finding anything about self heals being weaker btw?
  • g0ld3n4c3g0ld3n4c3 Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    tahera1 wrote: »
    I agree it's not about PvP but it's not about any posts on any forums either. Call me cynical, but AFAICT it's part of the business model. Players who play Cleric aren't meant to be exempt from needing to use potions(/healthstones.) Powerful direct heals aren't likely to come, as they would be directly competitive. Hence the focus on mitigation rather than regeneration; i.e. the best you can do is reduce how many potions you'll need, not eliminate the need entirely.
    From a business standpoint it makes perfect sense.

    I so love you now. Yes, the company want DC players to use cash shop items. That's P2W.
  • arutha336arutha336 Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    So the big thing about righteousness is clerics having more gold and not having to use potions....Oh no clerics would have more gold in game than others...NOO...cause I mean..gold is just so overly useful, you can buy so many useful things with it...almost never need AD.......right. LOL. So clerics would never want for scrolls of identification and potions..which they don't use...makes perfect sense in a Perfect World.
  • zzzzzdankzzzzzdank Member Posts: 180 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    arutha336 wrote: »
    So the big thing about righteousness is clerics having more gold and not having to use potions....Oh no clerics would have more gold in game than others...NOO...cause I mean..gold is just so overly useful, you can buy so many useful things with it...almost never need AD.......right. LOL. So clerics would never want for scrolls of identification and potions..which they don't use...makes perfect sense in a Perfect World.

    The funny thing is my GF used far less potions then any other class I've leveled.. Like a total of maybe 10 0-60 and those were used mostly 55-60.
  • frznvimesfrznvimes Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Meanwhile, every class including cleric uses the cleric companion to solo until they get a cat or ion stone.
    >.<
  • tarannon1tarannon1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    kiralia wrote: »
    http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/249375

    An extract from the Q & A with developer Grant Allen ("Cryptic_LordAzrael) from the above link

    "Regarding Cleric self heals, they will likely remain fairly minor for the Cleric. This is to help balance the fact that Clerics don't need to use as many health potions as other classes. Before the self heal reduction, Clerics would pretty much always have more gold than all other classes.

    It was also creating situations where Clerics would just self heal tank through encounters.

    So as unfortunate as the reduction is, it does make you a more concerned with taking damage in combat, which hopefully leads to a more satisfying experience at the end of the day."

    So yeah nothing to do with pvp, lots to do with wanting them to use more potions (and health stones!) and a side nod towards self healing tank avoidance which gave me the distinct impression the pot chugging was the main reason.

    Where in 4th edition are you finding anything about self heals being weaker btw?

    This is just plain silly. Most people will be doing groupcontent at lvl 60, so DC's went from using less potions than others, to using more potions than others, as we don't receive the same amount of healing they do in a groupsetting. Remove righteousness while grouped with others, and keep it while soloing. This is the only reasonable fix in my opinion.
  • dominemesisdominemesis Member Posts: 269 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    frznvimes wrote: »
    Meanwhile, every class including cleric uses the cleric companion to solo until they get a cat or ion stone.
    >.<

    This is part of what prompted the post, more than any other character I have, my healer ends more fights more injured than any other, so much so I have to take a cleric companion on my cleric...that is just dumb that it is the case.
  • dominemesisdominemesis Member Posts: 269 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    tarannon1 wrote: »
    This is just plain silly. Most people will be doing groupcontent at lvl 60, so DC's went from using less potions than others, to using more potions than others, as we don't receive the same amount of healing they do in a groupsetting. Remove righteousness while grouped with others, and keep it while soloing. This is the only reasonable fix in my opinion.

    No other game suffers this issue with their healers, and it frankly is a non-issue here. What solo content can't be tanked through by anyone else using the cleric companion and pots that isn't tantamount to the exact same thing? My cleric uses more pots than any other character unless he too brings a cleric companion, which is really stupid.

    This "fix" didn't repair an imbalance it created one instead. Also how long does it take any of the classes to level to 60? a few days? This whole argument about clerics having more gold, the most useless currency in the game atm, is ridiculous, severely overstated, and doesn't nearly justify the existence of Righteousness.
  • frznvimesfrznvimes Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    The more I think about it the more this irritates me. I think I'll stop using consumables for healing altogether on all of my characters until righteousness goes away. My cleric has less damage, defenses, and cc than the other classes in exchange for... healing that's only supposed to help other players (but not enough that they shouldn't be chugging pots too)?
    Screw that.
  • rangurenranguren Member Posts: 4
    edited June 2013
    huas31r wrote: »
    Actually it was because in closed Beta Clerics could solo everything because they could heal tank everything. (which made them better tanks than Guardian Fighters). So they nerfed self healing so clerics couldn't pull double duty.

    So technically it's not a nerf. It was a class fix. So gonna go out on a limb here and say something childish, "Deal with it."

    it is a nerf, because mostly Cleric can tank, whats wrong with cleric tanking anyway??
  • warsirenwarsiren Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    ranguren wrote: »
    it is a nerf, because mostly Cleric can tank, whats wrong with cleric tanking anyway??

    That would be a Paladin, different class. Clerics in DnD are not meant to be tanks.
    Thori-Siggy-2_zps2ccf70bd.png
  • kiraliakiralia Member Posts: 383 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    They are supposed to have good healing and decent dps though.
  • indolo238indolo238 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 51
    edited June 2013
    My cleric is low level (24), but takes way more damage while soloing than my CW (27) and TR (20) due to the control and/or damage they can do. My TR can daze and my CW can disable as well as shield herself. It's kinda silly that the cleric uses more pots. Maybe I should get a cleric companion.

    The other night I heard players in a level 20ish zone talking about how they don't carry potions. My first thought was the CW and TR that died in the last 2 dungeon runs I did, but then it reminded me how much more reliant I am on pots than my other characters.

    Of course that's just low level perspective.
  • skrootooskrootoo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    The side effect here is that in pvp a cleric can't self heal through ... much of anything. 1v1 a healer should be able to hold a control point vs a dps for a long time, if not forever. A single dps shouldn't be able to nuke down a healer this fast in any game.
  • sirxluissirxluis Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    healers always solo everything its a mmo rpg thing theres no way to avoid it besides making the class useless therefore may as well not have it
  • souleshasoulesha Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    indolo238 wrote: »
    Maybe I should get a cleric companion.

    I'm level 35. I never use potions unless I'm in a 5 man dungeon and off-tanking adds / the boss. If you're on Dragon and you want to see how I play, drop me a line. That said, I definitely noticed a difference in soloing when turned 16 and got my cleric companion. Her heal does wonders on top of your own abilities that heal you & damage your enemies at the same time.

    As far as PvP goes, I think clerics need more/better ways to remove CC. It's not so much that I can't heal through a little burst (eventually I WILL die if I'm alone)... it's that I can't do ANYTHING at all. Chain frozen, chain stunned, chain ability locked, chain knockbacked... chain chain chain. Give me a break already :p
  • aenuuaenuu Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 48
    edited June 2013
    soulesha wrote: »
    I'm level 35. I never use potions unless I'm in a 5 man dungeon and off-tanking adds / the boss. If you're on Dragon and you want to see how I play, drop me a line. That said, I definitely noticed a difference in soloing when turned 16 and got my cleric companion. Her heal does wonders on top of your own abilities that heal you & damage your enemies at the same time.

    As far as PvP goes, I think clerics need more/better ways to remove CC. It's not so much that I can't heal through a little burst (eventually I WILL die if I'm alone)... it's that I can't do ANYTHING at all. Chain frozen, chain stunned, chain ability locked, chain knockbacked... chain chain chain. Give me a break already :p

    Once you get to Ebon Downs you'll start using healing potions. Until then, I very rarely used healing potions except a couple dungeons. Once you get to Whispering Caverns, you will not be able to solo that map without using healing potions (given the current state of things).
    Edit: if you can, I'd love to see a video of the hardest fights :)

    Now at level 60, I use them religiously (no pun intended).
  • traveliantravelian Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    warsiren wrote: »
    That would be a Paladin, different class. Clerics in DnD are not meant to be tanks.

    Yes they are, they get shields and medium armor. Until the barbarian class was introduced they had the second highest hit die. Get out of the WoW dress wearing priest mindset and remember D&D clerics are chain mail wearing mace bashing holy warriors.
  • onehappygnadeonehappygnade Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Ya, I have a cleric as well who hardly ever uses Pots and that's only because I concentrated on a Regen armour set. Level 58 and nothing bug Regen/Recovery items so I can regen 12% of my missing health. That's the only way I can actually be on par against GWF And Rogues who get the idea that I'm easy picking. I shouldn't have to go out of my way to sacrifice so much like Crit for Regen just to make something survivable.
  • knightfalzknightfalz Member Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    travelian wrote: »
    Yes they are, they get shields and medium armor. Until the barbarian class was introduced they had the second highest hit die. Get out of the WoW dress wearing priest mindset and remember D&D clerics are chain mail wearing mace bashing holy warriors.

    Devoted Clerics, however, do not get to bash things with a mace and as such are not akin to holy warriors.

    Adjust your mindset to the cleric we currently have, not the one you perhaps wish we had.
  • kiraliakiralia Member Posts: 383 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I think the cleric we have is still fun, I just wish it did what it does a bit better.
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