Why will dps-player never be satisfied until their chosen class deals the most damage out of all classes, in all situations? It's always the same story. There are single-target dps classes and there are AoE-dps classes. GWF is the latter. They will never out-damage single-target dps classes on single targets.
Maybe so. But they also shouldnt match a rogues dps only when that damage is added up from hitting 4 targets at once.
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jezeen5Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
The problem here is not that GWF dosnt do enough damage or that TR's do too much. Personally I think it's because CW's can replace the GWF's AoE damage and control at the same time. Take out the CW's damage but keep their Control and the GWF becomes the most useful character choice for most dungeons whilst still keeping the essence and intentional use for each class.
Fighters can still do good-excellent damage in 4e though. Right now GWFs sacrifice all their nice survivability perks for really, really, really lackluster damage.
This class relies on brute strength alone to overcome the enemies. They are warriors who sacrifice shields in favor of large two-handed weapons. this is the manual of 4a -.- warrior is a defender not the gwf path...
Paragon paths don't change the role of the classes, what are you talking about? I'm very confused. No one said he doesn't do damage. No one said he's defensive-specced or weak. I'm just saying he's a defender. Which he is.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
Why will dps-player never be satisfied until their chosen class deals the most damage out of all classes, in all situations? It's always the same story. There are single-target dps classes and there are AoE-dps classes. GWF is the latter. They will never out-damage single-target dps classes on single targets.
Thats the problem. Everyone says we are AOE - we are not. We do less damage over multiple targets. Considering that we do hardly any real dps on single, when we do less on multiple its horrendous. Why do you think everyone complains about Dungeons adds are so overpowered? Because the GWF is not able to take them down in resonable order as is inteded.
AOE is a LARGE circle... like the ROGUE (and more so CW) AOE function. It' NOT standing in the middle of several mobs and swinging in less than a 3/4 arc (thats not 360 degreed duh) while putting yourself at combat DISADVANTAGE to do so.....
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olcas73Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited June 2013
From Dungeons and Dragons Player's Handbook 4th Edition
CHAPTER 2 | Making Characters
(information on page 16 along w/ability scores)
Defender (Fighter, Paladin) Defenders have the highest defenses in the game and
good close-up offense. They are the party’s front-line
combatants; wherever they’re standing, that’s where
the action is. Defenders have abilities and powers that
make it difficult for enemies to move past them or to
ignore them in battle.
Striker (Ranger, Rogue, Warlock)
Strikers specialize in dealing high amounts of damage
to a single target at a time. They have the most concentrated
offense of any character in the game. Strikers rely
on superior mobility, trickery, or magic to move around
tough foes and single out the enemy they want to attack.
Paragon Path for GWF currently in game is SWORDMASTER (page 88 of PHB 4E)
GWF isn't a striker. It is a defender since it is a Fighter. GW is simply the weapon, (which is a two-handed weapon instead of traditional sword and board or even dual wield). Doesn't really matter because as long as the class is a Fighter it will always be (according to the rules used here 4e) a Defender role. If paladins ever come in they too will be Defenders. Barbs will be the only striker using a 2 hander per 4e.
(Barbarians are covered in Player's handbook 2 for 4e starting on page 48).
It is a silly argument when it is all too easy to find a copy of the PHB to either prove or disprove the matter but to sit and continually argue fighters are strikers is silly when the PHB states otherwise.
Provide the material for 4e that changes this and then things change but since no proof/evidence has been submitted other than claims of "fighters have always been strikers". Fighters have always been fighters, a class that is offense and defense.
Rant all you want but the WotC material is what counts not anyone's opinion of what a class should be.
Yes that is a quote from the 4E PHB. We're not playing 4E D&D though. We're playing an mmo called Neverwinter. While based off of or inspired by it, Neverwinter incredibly obviously does not follow the pen and paper rules.
Neverwinter describes the GWF as striker primary, defender secondary, specializing in damaging multiple enemies.
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olcas73Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited June 2013
The combat disadvantage can be reduced through feats...I have a GWF and have no problems sitting in the middle of mobs using only wicked strike, and if its up slam for daily(and I didn't take the feat to reduce CA). For single targets I use flourish, restoring strike, takedown, and sure strike. And that was before the patch today. My GWF is only level 45 (had zero problems at low levels also). Going destroyer path so far.
Using unstoppable increases swing speed. Steel Blitz is worthless, I only use weapon master and destroyer for class feature.
And the less damage argument is somewhat true but I've not experienced it. I've got a very low crit on my GWF and still kick them out pretty often, most likely due to the class features used than anything else.
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olcas73Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited June 2013
Where does it describe it as a striker? please show proof...
ok i know nothings going to change, but i have to say it, i dont mind the rogue being on par with the gwf for dmg, but when i go on pvp, and a trickster rogue comes out of stealth and 1 hits me three times in a row right out of the campsite, thats disgustingly overpowered.
and meanwhile running through dungeons with my friends, my cleric buddy out damages me, my guardian buddy out damages me, two classes that are definitely not supposed to be more dps than a two handed warrior class.
i understand that the mages and the rogues are better dps because thats their class type, but a tank and healer out damages a dps/tank is not ok.
guardians have better health and defense, rogues and mages have better damage and survivability. and what do great sword fighters have? aoe atks that do very little damage, where the only advantage we have is being able to damage multiple targets. and even the mages have that with better dps.
bottom line, gwfs need a damage buff, im tired of being outclassed by tanks and healers in damage. and tired of being 1 hitted multiple times by rogues that gwfs cant even damage because of all the dodging, bunny hopping, and stealth.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
GWF has three specs, not 1. And two of them are not really off-tank-ish. :rolleyes:
Well its just too lol 90% gwfs make fully glass cannon dps builds and complaining about unstopable is too weak.
It is indeed if you have low HP and no dr, defense at all and none sentinel feat...
what is a off tank in this case.. lets see the class discription?
"The Great Weapon Fighter is an unstoppable force of damage and steel, skilled in using the weight of a greatsword to dispatch those that stand in the way. The epitome of strength, the Great Weapon Fighter is also resilient enough to defend allies in need."
that is... the inate part of the class is: gwf is a brute guy. to be brute generate threat (damage) and, when are attacked, dont need run because is tough. BUT dont have the normal tank tools. that is, your tank side is a accident created by your primary side: how this class do your damage (being a epitome of strength).
ps: sentinel description:
"The Sentinel uses innate strength to entice the aggression of monster and mitigate blows that would otherwise devastate allies."
ps2: w/o a super buff to the ac of FIGHTERS, only will work give to gwf a lot of defensive debuffs/self buffs, but inferior to gf. that is, be a bad defender=be a secundary defender.
that is... the inate part of the class is: gwf is a brute guy. to be brute generate threat (damage) and, when are attacked, dont need run. BUT dont have the normal tank tools. that is, your tank side is a accident created by your primary side: how this class do your damage (being a epitome of strength).
That's a lot of wishful thinking involved, heavily influenced by the role the GWF used to play prior to the recent changes IMO.
In the traditional sense (at least in D&D terms) a "brutish" class of combatants wielding two-handed swords may have certain types of defenses and utilities to withstand combat, but is in no way comparable to a fighter/paladin fully set for defense and equipped with a shield.
Yes, the GWF is certainly a brutish class of a fighter geared more towards the offensive (at least in concept). But that doesn't mean it doesn't need to run. That doesn't mean its as resilient as a real tank, and the "off tank" role is usually defined by how the class is actually utilized, rather than what spec/skill it has.
A typical "classic" fight in a D&D-ish environment would have sword-and-shield equipped combatants as the unparalleled tank. If for any reason it may fail in grabbing the aggro of every major enemy entity engaged in combat, which may slip past and start targeting the rear-lines of more fragile support classes, the "off tank" role would fall back to engage them as a temporary measure until it is dealt with, or the tank role re-grabs aggro.
Interesting to note the differences in the reality of combat between NW, and the more "classic" CRPG type fights, now that games that are reminiscent of the "classics" such as Pillars of Eternity from Obsidian, is out in the market. O boy, the nostalgia.
I still think that tge "classic role-diversification" is the way to go, and these series of "experiments" that dabbled with "omnipotent all-in-one class/characters", that ran between the early 2000's ~ current, have ultimately failed. It's done nothing but spoil the people into thinking that any class that needs to rely on others for any possible role in combat is "gimped"... which is a bad thing in a RPG -- as in 'role playing game'.
If you're so powerful as to not require assistance from any other roles, then what good is a "RPG"? Everybody just wants to play the hardest hitting + easiest to survive in.
Please refrain from posting to excessively old threads, as the information contained therein may be outdated or obsolete. Also, the Rules of Conduct forbid it.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Comments
Maybe so. But they also shouldnt match a rogues dps only when that damage is added up from hitting 4 targets at once.
A personal attack was not nessecary at all. There was no need to call them a moron.
Fighters can still do good-excellent damage in 4e though. Right now GWFs sacrifice all their nice survivability perks for really, really, really lackluster damage.
Paragon paths don't change the role of the classes, what are you talking about? I'm very confused. No one said he doesn't do damage. No one said he's defensive-specced or weak. I'm just saying he's a defender. Which he is.
Thats the problem. Everyone says we are AOE - we are not. We do less damage over multiple targets. Considering that we do hardly any real dps on single, when we do less on multiple its horrendous. Why do you think everyone complains about Dungeons adds are so overpowered? Because the GWF is not able to take them down in resonable order as is inteded.
AOE is a LARGE circle... like the ROGUE (and more so CW) AOE function. It' NOT standing in the middle of several mobs and swinging in less than a 3/4 arc (thats not 360 degreed duh) while putting yourself at combat DISADVANTAGE to do so.....
CHAPTER 2 | Making Characters
(information on page 16 along w/ability scores)
Defender (Fighter, Paladin)
Defenders have the highest defenses in the game and
good close-up offense. They are the party’s front-line
combatants; wherever they’re standing, that’s where
the action is. Defenders have abilities and powers that
make it difficult for enemies to move past them or to
ignore them in battle.
Striker (Ranger, Rogue, Warlock)
Strikers specialize in dealing high amounts of damage
to a single target at a time. They have the most concentrated
offense of any character in the game. Strikers rely
on superior mobility, trickery, or magic to move around
tough foes and single out the enemy they want to attack.
Paragon Path for GWF currently in game is SWORDMASTER (page 88 of PHB 4E)
GWF isn't a striker. It is a defender since it is a Fighter. GW is simply the weapon, (which is a two-handed weapon instead of traditional sword and board or even dual wield). Doesn't really matter because as long as the class is a Fighter it will always be (according to the rules used here 4e) a Defender role. If paladins ever come in they too will be Defenders. Barbs will be the only striker using a 2 hander per 4e.
(Barbarians are covered in Player's handbook 2 for 4e starting on page 48).
It is a silly argument when it is all too easy to find a copy of the PHB to either prove or disprove the matter but to sit and continually argue fighters are strikers is silly when the PHB states otherwise.
Provide the material for 4e that changes this and then things change but since no proof/evidence has been submitted other than claims of "fighters have always been strikers". Fighters have always been fighters, a class that is offense and defense.
Rant all you want but the WotC material is what counts not anyone's opinion of what a class should be.
Neverwinter describes the GWF as striker primary, defender secondary, specializing in damaging multiple enemies.
Using unstoppable increases swing speed. Steel Blitz is worthless, I only use weapon master and destroyer for class feature.
And the less damage argument is somewhat true but I've not experienced it. I've got a very low crit on my GWF and still kick them out pretty often, most likely due to the class features used than anything else.
and meanwhile running through dungeons with my friends, my cleric buddy out damages me, my guardian buddy out damages me, two classes that are definitely not supposed to be more dps than a two handed warrior class.
i understand that the mages and the rogues are better dps because thats their class type, but a tank and healer out damages a dps/tank is not ok.
guardians have better health and defense, rogues and mages have better damage and survivability. and what do great sword fighters have? aoe atks that do very little damage, where the only advantage we have is being able to damage multiple targets. and even the mages have that with better dps.
bottom line, gwfs need a damage buff, im tired of being outclassed by tanks and healers in damage. and tired of being 1 hitted multiple times by rogues that gwfs cant even damage because of all the dodging, bunny hopping, and stealth.
BTW gwf can be top dps no easly.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
Stopped reading.
GWF is an offtank...
And our CW friends are controllers, aren't they? Yet they go, ba-dum-tiss on people in pvp.
Well its just too lol 90% gwfs make fully glass cannon dps builds and complaining about unstopable is too weak.
It is indeed if you have low HP and no dr, defense at all and none sentinel feat...
Honest question: what's a GWF sentinel now? lol
And it's not doing that either.
Go figure.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
what to define?
Helping main tank, draw off some mobs. Bringing some cover to weaker classes.
"The Great Weapon Fighter is an unstoppable force of damage and steel, skilled in using the weight of a greatsword to dispatch those that stand in the way. The epitome of strength, the Great Weapon Fighter is also resilient enough to defend allies in need."
that is... the inate part of the class is: gwf is a brute guy. to be brute generate threat (damage) and, when are attacked, dont need run because is tough. BUT dont have the normal tank tools. that is, your tank side is a accident created by your primary side: how this class do your damage (being a epitome of strength).
ps: sentinel description:
"The Sentinel uses innate strength to entice the aggression of monster and mitigate blows that would otherwise devastate allies."
ps2: w/o a super buff to the ac of FIGHTERS, only will work give to gwf a lot of defensive debuffs/self buffs, but inferior to gf. that is, be a bad defender=be a secundary defender.
That's a lot of wishful thinking involved, heavily influenced by the role the GWF used to play prior to the recent changes IMO.
In the traditional sense (at least in D&D terms) a "brutish" class of combatants wielding two-handed swords may have certain types of defenses and utilities to withstand combat, but is in no way comparable to a fighter/paladin fully set for defense and equipped with a shield.
Yes, the GWF is certainly a brutish class of a fighter geared more towards the offensive (at least in concept). But that doesn't mean it doesn't need to run. That doesn't mean its as resilient as a real tank, and the "off tank" role is usually defined by how the class is actually utilized, rather than what spec/skill it has.
A typical "classic" fight in a D&D-ish environment would have sword-and-shield equipped combatants as the unparalleled tank. If for any reason it may fail in grabbing the aggro of every major enemy entity engaged in combat, which may slip past and start targeting the rear-lines of more fragile support classes, the "off tank" role would fall back to engage them as a temporary measure until it is dealt with, or the tank role re-grabs aggro.
Interesting to note the differences in the reality of combat between NW, and the more "classic" CRPG type fights, now that games that are reminiscent of the "classics" such as Pillars of Eternity from Obsidian, is out in the market. O boy, the nostalgia.
I still think that tge "classic role-diversification" is the way to go, and these series of "experiments" that dabbled with "omnipotent all-in-one class/characters", that ran between the early 2000's ~ current, have ultimately failed. It's done nothing but spoil the people into thinking that any class that needs to rely on others for any possible role in combat is "gimped"... which is a bad thing in a RPG -- as in 'role playing game'.
If you're so powerful as to not require assistance from any other roles, then what good is a "RPG"? Everybody just wants to play the hardest hitting + easiest to survive in.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com