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50 Trickster Rogue / Infiltrator Skill Guide and mini review
tgnalfen
Member Posts: 18 Arc User
UPDATED - see http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?216251-UPDATED-60-Trickster-Rogue-Guide&p=2909541#post2909541
Hey everyone, after playing through BW4 and trying every skill build imaginable (i respec a lot) i figured i could give out some info on the skills/builds and my personal take on them.
Current state of the Rogue has us as top damage on single target situations and worst damage in AoE situations (yes even guardian fighters can out dps us on AoE) Overall damage contribution in groups has us on top at the same level as Control Wizards: They pull ahead if there is a ton of AoE or we do if it's a lot of single target. Other classes are further behind and do not compare in damage.
Overall the class works but our skill tree is one of the worst around because of the many useless/redundant skills and pitfalls in it. This is probably what prompted me to write this guide.
Everything listed here is from a Trickster Rogue - Infiltrator Paragon perspective.
The Infiltrator is centered around Stealth and remaining in stealth as much as possible, most of the abilities given help you regain and under the right circumstances you can remain in Stealth indefinitely.
Races and Stats
when selecting a race your stat priority should be an even 50/50 split between Dexterity and Charisma and getting them as high as possible. When selecting your race just remember that 1 point in a stat is really not a big difference so if you want to play a Dwarf thief for the Lulz then go for it.
Dexterity is a no brainer for rogues.
Charisma over Strength is because it is point for point more effective as long as you always have combat advantage; something the Infiltrator excels at. If you are not in stealth, flanking or hitting knocked down, Dazed etc targets then Strength is a better sub stat. When other paragon paths come out i expect to see Dex/Str based Rogues.
Gear
In gear you will look for pure Power > Power + Critical > Power + HP
Why pure Power? Because no other stat scales as well on a Rogue.
Power over Crit really? Yes, power over crit because critical hits cannot reach a high enough percentile to beat plain base damage. The crit build can work if you get a lucky string but will not be as consistent whereas damage is never wasted.
I tried other stats builds like Defense, Deflection, Recovery, life steal and regen but none of those work: We are not defensive enough to make good use of Defense, Deflection or Regen. Life steal will not help you stay alive better then just killing the stuff and Regen doesn't affect cool down enough without being a high base Wisdom race/character.
How to play this?
Most of what i will write here is my personal opinion and my own playstyle, i will also give a little insight of what's it like for a Rogue at lvl 50.
The first thing to understand is how Stealth works:
Your stealth bar slowly regens on its own but dealing damage replenishes it faster. Taking any kind of damage lowers your stealth bar unless its full; when full your stealth bar stays full until activation.
You can activate Stealth at any time and the bar will slowly drain until you are out and reappear. Taking damage while in stealth does not break stealth but will cause your stealth meter to lose a portion proportional to the damage taken (this can break stealth if it is enough to empty your bar). Dealing damage while in stealth mode also replenishes the bar letting you stay in stealth longer (it takes a lot of damage to even counter the natural drain so you may not notice it early on).
Solo Difficulty Scaling
As you progress through the came you will notice that the content gets harder and harder. Bosses sub lvl 30 can be killed in seconds and most enemies deal very little damage or have long animations leading to their big skills. In the later levels, bosses will have substantial hit points and will not be easy to burst down (some are) forcing you on surviving the actual encounter for a few minutes instead of just bursting everything down instantly.
Enemies also hit a lot harder; for example i had 17 000 HP at lvl 50 and the average damage from enemies was around 1k on normal attacks with the skills (red patterns on the ground) doing upward of 4k to 10k. The only way to survive mob packs by that point is to abuse Stealth and the Infiltrator is the perfect role for that.
Another thing to note is that companions do not scale like the players do: Your companion will lose effectiveness as you tackle higher and higher content. Mine could barely stay alive 10 secs vs the lvl 50 content (max rank 20 companion). This means that by that point you need to have figured out a way to keep yourself alive without relying on outside help if you are solo.
The infinite Stealth method
This is what i use to basically stick to stealth 90% of the time.
At Wills:
Sly Flourish - trusty reliable damage you use 90% of the time
Duelist's Flurry - Used from stealth with lurkers assault to make bosses dead
(Sometimes Cloud of Steel instead of Duelist's Flurry if there is too many casters that love to stand in their AoE forever)
Encounter:
Wicked Reminder : I would normally use smoke bomb but lvl 50 cap meant it was that or invisible infiltrator and having an armor debuff helps vs thougher enemies
Bait and Switch: decoy that gives AP and refills stealth plays right into that build's strength
Shadow Strike: full stealth refill when i need it, lets me use wicked reminder then back to stealth
Daily:
Whirlwind of Blades - our best aoe damage skill, if there is a lot of minions and basic enemies this clears them nicelly
Lurker's Assault - when only the boss remains use this along with Duelist's Flurry to make it dead
Class Features:
Tactics - We have painfully slow AP generation this helps
Invisible Infiltrator - free full stealth bar after daily means more stealth goodness
It goes a little bit like this, run up to an enemy, stealth, beat on it, when stealth is low use Bait and Switch, re position away from the decoy (to not get hit) keep hitting your target, when stealth is low again use Wicked reminder, exit stealth, use Shadow strike to refill bar, wicked reminder if you have time otherwise stealth again, when stealth is low use Daily power for a refill, when low again wicked reminder etc
Basically you only exit stealth when Shadow strike is up to use the 3 charge Wicked Reminder. If you screw up, kite a little and repeat.
I also separate grades with PvE and PvP in mind
Grades:
0 - Garbage, no use whatsoever
1 - Situational, might work but there are better options available
2 - Good, nothing wrong here and if you like the skill then by all means use it.
3 - Amazing, skill that i cannot find anything wrong with fall into that category
Good - some of the good things you can expect out of the skill/feature
Bad - some of the things that prevent this skill from shining or things to watch out for.
At Wills
Sly Flourish - PvE 3 PvP 3
Your bread and butter attack, you will use this skill more than anything else.
Good - You start with it and throughout the game this will remain your best overall at will.
Bad - Nothing really, damage is average but its an at will with 0 drawback.
Cloud of Steel - PvE 1 PvP 3
This will probably be everyone's secondary at will at least until duelist flurry and even then its sometimes better to just keep this skill in case you need some range.
Good - Ranged attack and quick execution, good vs enemies that like sitting in their AoE damage fields.
Bad - low damage and limited charges (12), adding points does not increase charges only a bit of damage.
Duelist's Flurry - PvE 3, PvP 0
This skill cannot work as your main at Will due to the long animation but it makes good for secondary skill especially vs high HP targets.
Good - Highest DPS at will we have; amazing damage when the bleed is at 10/10 stacks.
Bad - Takes 2 sec to wind up and another 2 to execute, so you need a stationary target and usually a distraction like a tank etc. Bleeds have no synergy with anything Rogues get
Gloaming Cut - PvE 0, PvP 0
Slow attack with a little bit of forward momentum that deals average damage and gives a little stealth IF you get the killing blow with it.
Good - I can't say anything good about this skill, it fails to work in every possible way.
Bad - Long windup, bad damage, low stealth bar refill on killing blow makes this a pass for anyone.
Encounter Powers
Dazing Strike - PvE 2, PvP 3
Decent damage and daze is an amazing status effect, i would mark it as a 3 points for PvE but we eventually get better skills and have limited slots.
Good - Daze is always good, has a tiny AoE if you land it right
Bad - 1 sec animation to execute
Deft Strike - PvE 0, PvP 3
This really had no use in PvE with a limited encounter bar but for PvP this lets you catch anyone and provides excellent mobility.
Good - Instant teleport to your targets back, the range while stealth-ed is HUGE. Great top catch runners.
Bad - Low damage, relatively long cool down, short duration slow.
Lashing Blade - PvE 2, PvP 2
A good low level skill that sadly got nerfed hard due to its burst potential (used to do 50% extra dmg from stealth). This skill gets replaced by Wicked Reminder later on since its damage just isn't worth the cool down.
Good - Instant burst damage, only source of instant direct damage for a long while.
Bad - Long Cooldown, the new guaranteed crit from stealth is totally not worth breaking stealth for.
Bait and Switch - PvE 3, PvP 1 (for the stealth refill only)
Anytime you are soloing this skill is great providing you with a decoy that takes hits for you and giving you a full stealth bar refill if used in stealth. This skill is almost mandatory for solo play.
Good - Free dodge, a full stealth refill from stealth and bonus AP when tank gets hit.
Bad - long cooldown and at high level the decoy has very little HP.
Blitz - PvE 2, PvP 1
It's an AoE, something we lack badly. On any other class i would overlook this skill completely but since we have so very little AoE potential this one is a good buy and will serve its purpose.
Good - It has AoE something we totally lack, the jump back can also serve as a ghetto dodge.
Bad - Average damage, average cool down, if it wasn't for our lack of AoE's this would never be used.
Impossible to Catch - PvE 2, PvP 3
Mandatory PvP skill but for PvE it competes with the 3 spots in our encounters bar; if you know in advance that there will be a ton of AoE to dodge then go for it otherwise slot in something else.
Good - Only way to break CC and used from stealth it becomes amazing.
Bad - Long cool down limits its PvE usage but would otherwise make it OP for PvP.
Path of the Blade - PvE 1, PvP 0
If you really need more AoE encounter powers this might be an option to use along with Blitz but dont expect to be using this skill often.
Good - Its an AoE of sorts
Bad - low damage, long cooldown.
Impact Shot - PvE 0, PvP 1
Another range skill with charges; this one doesn't make the list because none of the things it does cannot be done by another skill in an improved way. Plus the knockback is annoying at best.
Good - The stun from stealth is nice
Bad - average damage, limited charges not increased by adding mastery points and Deft Strike is better at catching runners anyway.
Shadow Strike - PvE 3, PvP 3
The redeeming skill for the infiltrator Paragon Path; this is what makes everything work and should be included in almost every build.
Good - Full stealth refill every ~12 secs from range if needed.
Bad - meaningless damage and adding mastery points is a waste for 10% dmg.
Wicked Reminder - PvE 3, PvP 0
This is what you replace Lashing blade with; it deals a little less damage but debuff's armor and is on a sub 4 sec cool down. I kinda wish that this was an at will with lower damage but at least its a good skill. The damage bonus from the armor debuff felt like ~5% per stack
Good - Short cool down, decent damage, armor debuff and stealth effect is useful
bad - Will have to compete for one of your 3 encounter slots.
Smoke Bomb - PvE 3, PvP 3
I kinda wish i could have tried the 3 point version of this amazing skill but even at 1 points this was awesome, AoE Daze rocks.
Good - Daze is an excellent effect, it's an AoE and Slow effect from stealth on top of that is awesome for PvP
Bad - Long cool down, rather small effect.
Daily Powers
Bloodbath - PvE 0, PvP 3
This skill is the first daily power you will have access to, it looks cool, sounds cool and falls short in potential for PvE. In PvP this lets you deal some damage while being completely immune to damage.
Good - Looks cool and you are invulnerable during this power, single target damage is good.
Bad - AoE damage is low as you have no way of controlling what it will hit and this may also move you to places you don't want to go to.
Lurker's Assault - PvE 3, PvP 3
This lets you keep stealth for a loooong time and gives you 60% damage bonus to boot, need i say more?
Good - Great damage boost, good utility
Bad - World turns black and white making red aoe areas very hard to see use with caution.
Whirlwind of Blades - PvE 2, PvP 1
This skill is a little bland at first because we have bad AP generation early on and it doesn't do that much damage but in the later levels it will clear an entire room of minions for you.
Good - Large Aoe centered on you with excellent damage potential
Bad - you will need to be in the center of everything if you want a good hit out of this
Courage Breaker - PvE 1, PvP 0
While a 90% damage reduction sounds appealing we cannot maintain something like that to really make a difference.
Good - Gains a ton of potential from putting points into it.
Bad - Doesn't last long enough to make use of a Daily Power.
Shocking Execution - PvE 1, PvP 1
I may reserve judgement of this skill for later since i could only try the lvl 1 version, maybe 200% extra damage will make it shine but at lvl 1 it was not good enough to be a daily power.
Good - Long range burst potential
Bad - Damage was low at lvl 1
Class Features
Sneak Attack PvE 0, PvP 2
Dunno what they were thinking when they made this but even the name doesn't seem to work...
Good - Will make you walk at half mount speed when in stealth great to catch someone
Bad - Name doesn't feel right and wtf just give us back the old version
First Strike - PvE 0, PvP 1
15% damage for only the first hit in a fight doesn't make for a useful feature.
Good - Nothing!
Bad - 15% for 3 points once per fight does not work no matter how you look at it.
Tenacious Concealment - PvE 3, PvP 3
This is something that you should pick up along the way, it helps when dealing with situations with a ton of AoE damage flying around.
Good - 90% reduction almost removes the penalty we get from taking damage.
Bad - Unless you are taking damage this does nothing for you
Tactics - PvE 3, PvP 0
We have painfully slow AP generation, 15% from this helps a little and makes for a useful class feature.
Good - Helps AP, we really need more AP
Bad - 15% is a little low
Infiltrator's Action - PvE 0, PvP 0
This might be useful if we had a hard time gaining combat advantage but we do not so this goes to the useless pile.
Good - at least adding points into it actually does something useful.
Bad - everything this does is done better by invisible Infiltrator.
Skillful Infiltrator - PvE 3, PvP 3
Passive 15% speed 3% crit and 3% deflect, this is always good, all the time, also makes Sneak Attack look bad.
Good - Always useful no matter what you do
Bad - its kinda of an uninspired passive stat boost, still good though
Invisible Infiltrator - PvE 2, PvP 2
This has amazing synergies with the infiltrator paragon; giving you a 3rd way to refill a full stealth bar (4th if you count Gloaming Cut) as well as some extra damage
Good - Another way to regain stealth, the bonus damage is great too
Bad - Situational due to Daily power requirement
FEATS
I will go over them later, basically anything that improves AP generation > Stealth duration > damage (rest is not worth it)
Hey everyone, after playing through BW4 and trying every skill build imaginable (i respec a lot) i figured i could give out some info on the skills/builds and my personal take on them.
Current state of the Rogue has us as top damage on single target situations and worst damage in AoE situations (yes even guardian fighters can out dps us on AoE) Overall damage contribution in groups has us on top at the same level as Control Wizards: They pull ahead if there is a ton of AoE or we do if it's a lot of single target. Other classes are further behind and do not compare in damage.
Overall the class works but our skill tree is one of the worst around because of the many useless/redundant skills and pitfalls in it. This is probably what prompted me to write this guide.
Everything listed here is from a Trickster Rogue - Infiltrator Paragon perspective.
The Infiltrator is centered around Stealth and remaining in stealth as much as possible, most of the abilities given help you regain and under the right circumstances you can remain in Stealth indefinitely.
Races and Stats
when selecting a race your stat priority should be an even 50/50 split between Dexterity and Charisma and getting them as high as possible. When selecting your race just remember that 1 point in a stat is really not a big difference so if you want to play a Dwarf thief for the Lulz then go for it.
Dexterity is a no brainer for rogues.
Charisma over Strength is because it is point for point more effective as long as you always have combat advantage; something the Infiltrator excels at. If you are not in stealth, flanking or hitting knocked down, Dazed etc targets then Strength is a better sub stat. When other paragon paths come out i expect to see Dex/Str based Rogues.
Gear
In gear you will look for pure Power > Power + Critical > Power + HP
Why pure Power? Because no other stat scales as well on a Rogue.
Power over Crit really? Yes, power over crit because critical hits cannot reach a high enough percentile to beat plain base damage. The crit build can work if you get a lucky string but will not be as consistent whereas damage is never wasted.
I tried other stats builds like Defense, Deflection, Recovery, life steal and regen but none of those work: We are not defensive enough to make good use of Defense, Deflection or Regen. Life steal will not help you stay alive better then just killing the stuff and Regen doesn't affect cool down enough without being a high base Wisdom race/character.
How to play this?
Most of what i will write here is my personal opinion and my own playstyle, i will also give a little insight of what's it like for a Rogue at lvl 50.
The first thing to understand is how Stealth works:
Your stealth bar slowly regens on its own but dealing damage replenishes it faster. Taking any kind of damage lowers your stealth bar unless its full; when full your stealth bar stays full until activation.
You can activate Stealth at any time and the bar will slowly drain until you are out and reappear. Taking damage while in stealth does not break stealth but will cause your stealth meter to lose a portion proportional to the damage taken (this can break stealth if it is enough to empty your bar). Dealing damage while in stealth mode also replenishes the bar letting you stay in stealth longer (it takes a lot of damage to even counter the natural drain so you may not notice it early on).
Solo Difficulty Scaling
As you progress through the came you will notice that the content gets harder and harder. Bosses sub lvl 30 can be killed in seconds and most enemies deal very little damage or have long animations leading to their big skills. In the later levels, bosses will have substantial hit points and will not be easy to burst down (some are) forcing you on surviving the actual encounter for a few minutes instead of just bursting everything down instantly.
Enemies also hit a lot harder; for example i had 17 000 HP at lvl 50 and the average damage from enemies was around 1k on normal attacks with the skills (red patterns on the ground) doing upward of 4k to 10k. The only way to survive mob packs by that point is to abuse Stealth and the Infiltrator is the perfect role for that.
Another thing to note is that companions do not scale like the players do: Your companion will lose effectiveness as you tackle higher and higher content. Mine could barely stay alive 10 secs vs the lvl 50 content (max rank 20 companion). This means that by that point you need to have figured out a way to keep yourself alive without relying on outside help if you are solo.
The infinite Stealth method
This is what i use to basically stick to stealth 90% of the time.
At Wills:
Sly Flourish - trusty reliable damage you use 90% of the time
Duelist's Flurry - Used from stealth with lurkers assault to make bosses dead
(Sometimes Cloud of Steel instead of Duelist's Flurry if there is too many casters that love to stand in their AoE forever)
Encounter:
Wicked Reminder : I would normally use smoke bomb but lvl 50 cap meant it was that or invisible infiltrator and having an armor debuff helps vs thougher enemies
Bait and Switch: decoy that gives AP and refills stealth plays right into that build's strength
Shadow Strike: full stealth refill when i need it, lets me use wicked reminder then back to stealth
Daily:
Whirlwind of Blades - our best aoe damage skill, if there is a lot of minions and basic enemies this clears them nicelly
Lurker's Assault - when only the boss remains use this along with Duelist's Flurry to make it dead
Class Features:
Tactics - We have painfully slow AP generation this helps
Invisible Infiltrator - free full stealth bar after daily means more stealth goodness
It goes a little bit like this, run up to an enemy, stealth, beat on it, when stealth is low use Bait and Switch, re position away from the decoy (to not get hit) keep hitting your target, when stealth is low again use Wicked reminder, exit stealth, use Shadow strike to refill bar, wicked reminder if you have time otherwise stealth again, when stealth is low use Daily power for a refill, when low again wicked reminder etc
Basically you only exit stealth when Shadow strike is up to use the 3 charge Wicked Reminder. If you screw up, kite a little and repeat.
Rogue and Infiltrator skills
I also separate grades with PvE and PvP in mind
Grades:
0 - Garbage, no use whatsoever
1 - Situational, might work but there are better options available
2 - Good, nothing wrong here and if you like the skill then by all means use it.
3 - Amazing, skill that i cannot find anything wrong with fall into that category
Good - some of the good things you can expect out of the skill/feature
Bad - some of the things that prevent this skill from shining or things to watch out for.
At Wills
Sly Flourish - PvE 3 PvP 3
Your bread and butter attack, you will use this skill more than anything else.
Good - You start with it and throughout the game this will remain your best overall at will.
Bad - Nothing really, damage is average but its an at will with 0 drawback.
Cloud of Steel - PvE 1 PvP 3
This will probably be everyone's secondary at will at least until duelist flurry and even then its sometimes better to just keep this skill in case you need some range.
Good - Ranged attack and quick execution, good vs enemies that like sitting in their AoE damage fields.
Bad - low damage and limited charges (12), adding points does not increase charges only a bit of damage.
Duelist's Flurry - PvE 3, PvP 0
This skill cannot work as your main at Will due to the long animation but it makes good for secondary skill especially vs high HP targets.
Good - Highest DPS at will we have; amazing damage when the bleed is at 10/10 stacks.
Bad - Takes 2 sec to wind up and another 2 to execute, so you need a stationary target and usually a distraction like a tank etc. Bleeds have no synergy with anything Rogues get
Gloaming Cut - PvE 0, PvP 0
Slow attack with a little bit of forward momentum that deals average damage and gives a little stealth IF you get the killing blow with it.
Good - I can't say anything good about this skill, it fails to work in every possible way.
Bad - Long windup, bad damage, low stealth bar refill on killing blow makes this a pass for anyone.
Encounter Powers
Dazing Strike - PvE 2, PvP 3
Decent damage and daze is an amazing status effect, i would mark it as a 3 points for PvE but we eventually get better skills and have limited slots.
Good - Daze is always good, has a tiny AoE if you land it right
Bad - 1 sec animation to execute
Deft Strike - PvE 0, PvP 3
This really had no use in PvE with a limited encounter bar but for PvP this lets you catch anyone and provides excellent mobility.
Good - Instant teleport to your targets back, the range while stealth-ed is HUGE. Great top catch runners.
Bad - Low damage, relatively long cool down, short duration slow.
Lashing Blade - PvE 2, PvP 2
A good low level skill that sadly got nerfed hard due to its burst potential (used to do 50% extra dmg from stealth). This skill gets replaced by Wicked Reminder later on since its damage just isn't worth the cool down.
Good - Instant burst damage, only source of instant direct damage for a long while.
Bad - Long Cooldown, the new guaranteed crit from stealth is totally not worth breaking stealth for.
Bait and Switch - PvE 3, PvP 1 (for the stealth refill only)
Anytime you are soloing this skill is great providing you with a decoy that takes hits for you and giving you a full stealth bar refill if used in stealth. This skill is almost mandatory for solo play.
Good - Free dodge, a full stealth refill from stealth and bonus AP when tank gets hit.
Bad - long cooldown and at high level the decoy has very little HP.
Blitz - PvE 2, PvP 1
It's an AoE, something we lack badly. On any other class i would overlook this skill completely but since we have so very little AoE potential this one is a good buy and will serve its purpose.
Good - It has AoE something we totally lack, the jump back can also serve as a ghetto dodge.
Bad - Average damage, average cool down, if it wasn't for our lack of AoE's this would never be used.
Impossible to Catch - PvE 2, PvP 3
Mandatory PvP skill but for PvE it competes with the 3 spots in our encounters bar; if you know in advance that there will be a ton of AoE to dodge then go for it otherwise slot in something else.
Good - Only way to break CC and used from stealth it becomes amazing.
Bad - Long cool down limits its PvE usage but would otherwise make it OP for PvP.
Path of the Blade - PvE 1, PvP 0
If you really need more AoE encounter powers this might be an option to use along with Blitz but dont expect to be using this skill often.
Good - Its an AoE of sorts
Bad - low damage, long cooldown.
Impact Shot - PvE 0, PvP 1
Another range skill with charges; this one doesn't make the list because none of the things it does cannot be done by another skill in an improved way. Plus the knockback is annoying at best.
Good - The stun from stealth is nice
Bad - average damage, limited charges not increased by adding mastery points and Deft Strike is better at catching runners anyway.
Shadow Strike - PvE 3, PvP 3
The redeeming skill for the infiltrator Paragon Path; this is what makes everything work and should be included in almost every build.
Good - Full stealth refill every ~12 secs from range if needed.
Bad - meaningless damage and adding mastery points is a waste for 10% dmg.
Wicked Reminder - PvE 3, PvP 0
This is what you replace Lashing blade with; it deals a little less damage but debuff's armor and is on a sub 4 sec cool down. I kinda wish that this was an at will with lower damage but at least its a good skill. The damage bonus from the armor debuff felt like ~5% per stack
Good - Short cool down, decent damage, armor debuff and stealth effect is useful
bad - Will have to compete for one of your 3 encounter slots.
Smoke Bomb - PvE 3, PvP 3
I kinda wish i could have tried the 3 point version of this amazing skill but even at 1 points this was awesome, AoE Daze rocks.
Good - Daze is an excellent effect, it's an AoE and Slow effect from stealth on top of that is awesome for PvP
Bad - Long cool down, rather small effect.
Daily Powers
Bloodbath - PvE 0, PvP 3
This skill is the first daily power you will have access to, it looks cool, sounds cool and falls short in potential for PvE. In PvP this lets you deal some damage while being completely immune to damage.
Good - Looks cool and you are invulnerable during this power, single target damage is good.
Bad - AoE damage is low as you have no way of controlling what it will hit and this may also move you to places you don't want to go to.
Lurker's Assault - PvE 3, PvP 3
This lets you keep stealth for a loooong time and gives you 60% damage bonus to boot, need i say more?
Good - Great damage boost, good utility
Bad - World turns black and white making red aoe areas very hard to see use with caution.
Whirlwind of Blades - PvE 2, PvP 1
This skill is a little bland at first because we have bad AP generation early on and it doesn't do that much damage but in the later levels it will clear an entire room of minions for you.
Good - Large Aoe centered on you with excellent damage potential
Bad - you will need to be in the center of everything if you want a good hit out of this
Courage Breaker - PvE 1, PvP 0
While a 90% damage reduction sounds appealing we cannot maintain something like that to really make a difference.
Good - Gains a ton of potential from putting points into it.
Bad - Doesn't last long enough to make use of a Daily Power.
Shocking Execution - PvE 1, PvP 1
I may reserve judgement of this skill for later since i could only try the lvl 1 version, maybe 200% extra damage will make it shine but at lvl 1 it was not good enough to be a daily power.
Good - Long range burst potential
Bad - Damage was low at lvl 1
Class Features
Sneak Attack PvE 0, PvP 2
Dunno what they were thinking when they made this but even the name doesn't seem to work...
Good - Will make you walk at half mount speed when in stealth great to catch someone
Bad - Name doesn't feel right and wtf just give us back the old version
First Strike - PvE 0, PvP 1
15% damage for only the first hit in a fight doesn't make for a useful feature.
Good - Nothing!
Bad - 15% for 3 points once per fight does not work no matter how you look at it.
Tenacious Concealment - PvE 3, PvP 3
This is something that you should pick up along the way, it helps when dealing with situations with a ton of AoE damage flying around.
Good - 90% reduction almost removes the penalty we get from taking damage.
Bad - Unless you are taking damage this does nothing for you
Tactics - PvE 3, PvP 0
We have painfully slow AP generation, 15% from this helps a little and makes for a useful class feature.
Good - Helps AP, we really need more AP
Bad - 15% is a little low
Infiltrator's Action - PvE 0, PvP 0
This might be useful if we had a hard time gaining combat advantage but we do not so this goes to the useless pile.
Good - at least adding points into it actually does something useful.
Bad - everything this does is done better by invisible Infiltrator.
Skillful Infiltrator - PvE 3, PvP 3
Passive 15% speed 3% crit and 3% deflect, this is always good, all the time, also makes Sneak Attack look bad.
Good - Always useful no matter what you do
Bad - its kinda of an uninspired passive stat boost, still good though
Invisible Infiltrator - PvE 2, PvP 2
This has amazing synergies with the infiltrator paragon; giving you a 3rd way to refill a full stealth bar (4th if you count Gloaming Cut) as well as some extra damage
Good - Another way to regain stealth, the bonus damage is great too
Bad - Situational due to Daily power requirement
FEATS
I will go over them later, basically anything that improves AP generation > Stealth duration > damage (rest is not worth it)
Post edited by tgnalfen on
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It should be noted that a weapon's printed damage makes a HUGE difference. Probably in the same way that power increasing your damage does.
And Armor Pen shouldn't be neglected either, once you get over 1000 rating, dimishing returns starts noticeably kicking in. I tried to balance ArPen and Crit secondary to power.
If I HAD to pick a defensive stat (mostly in green sockets) I would take life steal (nickels and dimes add up) although one could argue that defense is better.
and for utility stats (yellow socket) I would take +movement. Being where you need to be is very important as a rogue.
I'm sorry a flat dmg % increase in all situations (Strength) will always be better than a situational dmg % increase, not to mention the dmg % increase in each ability score is "about even". This shouldn't be an argument, it's pretty obvious, strength over charisma.
Christ, it has a base timer of 10s (9.9s actual), of all the encounters, it has one of the shortest cool downs (only wicked reminder is quicker, 4s) and while it only lasts 3s ish? or so that's for all intents and purposes 1/3 of the actual CD the target spends in daze. You do realise how powerful daze is right? It being on a 10s timer is in effect short. No arguments on the animation length, however such a powerful disable has to have down sides right? I mean it already has decent damage on top of being one of the most powerful disable/CC (knock down being the best), if anything its pairing with stealth as a combo catches most unsuspecting opponents in PvP (proper timing for those that are expecting it makes it unstoppable) and totally disables PvE mobs (bar bosses).
I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but really.... it's on a base 18s (17.8 actual) CD, it removes all CC's (except knock downs) and further makes you immune to any CC's up to 3s (based on rank) plus it has the benefit of invulnerability in stealth. You honestly can't expect it to be any shorter for its utility and out right usefulness, if anything some would say it needs to be at a minimum of 30s or same as the longest encounters (24.7s), preventing its multiple use in a single fight.
You want damage, utility, cc breakers, and to top it off you want them all to be reusable constantly? You want Cake, Pie, and the bakery? Sorry, there has to be some resemblance of balance.
You're missing the single most important factor that this daily brings in PvP, Invulnerability while dealing damage. This alone makes this daily leaps and bounds ahead of whirlwind of blades in PvP. In a close fight (defending a node for example), you need to finish an opponent or a bunch of them off and you have little or no HP left you pop it, you're invulnerable, they die, you don't. Sure you can pop whirlwind, but there's no guarantee you'll kill them before they kill you. Bloodbath is a guarantee.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ojdd13XAKw
You can see how devastating Dazing strike, Deft strike, Impossible to catch are already with their, according to you "long" timers, when used at appropriate times in this video. (Granted the opponents aren't all that skilled). If their CDs were any shorter...... just no...
Power/Feat List
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iftu3aLOMas
Well the combat advantage bonus damage is point for point more damage than strength. If i was writing for any other type of Rogue than the Infiltrator i would go for Strait Strength. Its very easy to have combat advantage pretty much all the time as an Infiltrator. Not to mention you can also add a feat that improves your bonus from Combat advantage by 25%.
I did rate is as a 3 for PvP and noted that Daze is amazing, the 2 out of 3 for PvE is just that it has to compete for slots with Smoke bomb and Wicked Reminder and those 2 are superior. For PvP its a must have. I was a little harsh with the long cool down comment and will probably modify that to : Cool down too long to be used as effective DPS
Once again the cooldown was from a PvE perspective, for PvP i already said this is a 3/3 skill and i have absolutely 0 complaints on this skill.
Where did i ask for improvement on the stuff we all know is already good? If anything the only skills i asked for improvement on are the ones i rated at 0 or 1. Even those can be fine as long as they have a use like good for PvP etc.
I will concede that point, the invuln is nice, i hate that you can't control where it goes but for a 1v1 situation this would indeed be amazing, i will revise my score for PvP and add that bit.
Thanks for the review
If you're talking about Underhanded tactics, its now 20% and costs 5 Paragon points... ... on a PvE basis you're right, but in PvP, sorry way too situational.
Here is the thing when comparing it to prone. It gives combat advantage while prone does not. It is true that they are immobilized with prone, but they cant really escape while dazed either. At least I've not had a problem getting my attacks in, this 15% extra damage kind of makes them even imo.
You can CC break Daze, you can't with prone. Be it latency issues or just generally bad hit registry, (lag/warping/sliding) dazing a target without using Deft strike as a follow up still allows the target to continue running at "normal" speed. If it's a target with passive speed increase, you won't catch them or rather Sly flourish (let alone Duelist's flurry - if you even use it :x) does not have the reach to keep up. The number of times I've had a CW/Cleric slide away, or hell me waltzing away from another TR (when I didn't pop Impossible to Catch) that didn't Deft strike me after Dazing strike resulting in me/them taking 0 damage is rather common. For that reason alone I would rate a total immobilise from one encounter which lets you deal some (perhaps less) damage over a disable that has a possibility of you dealing 0 damage.
In PvP, average consistency is more important than inconsistent excellence.
Ah, of course, I forgot about the CC breaking. Teach me more bro! I'll move to your thread though, don't want to derail this one. too much.
Question: How is shocking execution at rank 3 regarding PvE as well as PvP? Also same question with
Invisible Infiltrator.
Khaless nau uss mzild taga dosstan.
Dirty Business, NW-DBU9MXKXW
Had to make a new thread since i could not change the title