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Dungeons are too hard for casual players
leeford
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 157 Bounty Hunter
Man I know I am going to get some flames and shrill shrieks from the elitists, but seriously, the dungeons post L30 or so are just too hard for casual players.
I have not finished a final boss in any queued pickup group since craigemire crypts. After several dozen fails on several characters, I have pretty much just stopped queueing dungeons. I will be the first to admit, I can not always get out end boss AE. A second hesitation usually gets me knocked down inside a red circle and burned down to 25% health. But even if I somehow make no mistakes in a 20 minute fight, there are 4 other casual players who have to remain alive.
The average group will give it 3 goes before people rage quit or run out of pots/kits. I am normally against dumbing down a game to make it EZ mode, but I have to say these dungeons seem like EPIC hard mode encounters without much margin for error.
I really like to see them tuned down.
I have not finished a final boss in any queued pickup group since craigemire crypts. After several dozen fails on several characters, I have pretty much just stopped queueing dungeons. I will be the first to admit, I can not always get out end boss AE. A second hesitation usually gets me knocked down inside a red circle and burned down to 25% health. But even if I somehow make no mistakes in a 20 minute fight, there are 4 other casual players who have to remain alive.
The average group will give it 3 goes before people rage quit or run out of pots/kits. I am normally against dumbing down a game to make it EZ mode, but I have to say these dungeons seem like EPIC hard mode encounters without much margin for error.
I really like to see them tuned down.
Post edited by leeford on
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they aint too hard believe me, you just need a bit of practice with dedicated players. i mean it, get in a guild
edit, oh and ... i am an elitist, we aint all flamers and bad guys !
You may get lucky, but you'll have better luck doing it with a guild that communicates properly.
Thank you for the polite response. Yeah, I know a guild run would be more successful. But I kind of feel you need that sort of organization for epic T2 runs and such. Casual runs, especially in mid-level dungeons, should be doable by amateur groups so long as they are not completely incompetent. i.e. Leeroy Jenkins
I'm playing rogue by myself mostly with my friend who plays mage. I have like 5 fps for most of the time in instances and even tho im doing like 75% of team total DMG (when im not playing with my friend).
Example? Good would be the normal case in almost every dungeon. I dealt 500k dmg, in same moment another mage & rogue havent even passed 150k dmg dealt. Situation get worse and worse after the time ... When i usually have 2M dmg dealt they are barely hiting 800k-1M. My friend who plays mage is usually like 100k under me or sometimes higher than me (depends mostly if there is lots of aoe or not).
Another example would be spider dungeon we made just yday. We picked up 60 lvl rogue with purple item sets etc (it was pve gear). He had over 2,5k more attack in stats than I did. Whats more i had dc for like 5 mins (they were keep going during this time), and at the end of the instance I had over 400k dmg dealt more than him and 100k more than my friend (that one who plays mage).
I dont have to say that with this dps most of the time when I play with friend we just nuke the boss down in matter of seconds. It leads to situation when we mostly dont have to deal with adds and another stuff.
Ofc I dont expect everyone to do same dmg I do, cause not everyone is that good in games and stuff. Eventho the gap in dmg dealt between me and average players is just so HUGEEEE.
The only dungeon I had problem with (and still didnt make it) was Lair of the Mad Dragon (the last boss). Its mostly due to fact that ppl realy dont know what to do, and raw dps might not work during this fight. Its important to kill adds very fast (and i tried to do this alone) and it wasnt possible when i was alone with the ammount of stuns and aoe to dodge there.
Dungeons before 30 lvl are just fine, or even too easy. For eg. I did Cragmire Crypts with my friend mage + healer (we all were at 31 lvl). To be honest with 3 players it wasnt even hard.
In few first instances I had also problems with bad healers but past lvl 35-40, the healers were pretty good so far. With good healer you dont even need a tank most of time.
You might have think that I'm bragging or something. It wasnt the intention, just pointing out whats going on. I have pretty good expearience in past games, and I understand that not everyone will play on the same lvl in first lvls of completly new game.
I played wow for almost 3-4 years (gladiator few times etc), I'm Diamond 1 on both servers in League of Legends, etc etc.
I just want to point out that most of the instances can be done if ppl wouldnt want that hard. Or if they would at least read some guide how to make boss (which realy helps out if you arent so smart to think by yourself a great strategy, sometimes nether do I'm).
I would like if the game could stay as it is. Its not very like (for eg. like WoW during classic was), and its not that easy (how WoW is for eg. now during lvling).
well mmo gaming gather a wide range of ppl since 2004, young and old, casual and hardcore, capable or not. there s enough variation in content in most game so that this wide variety of gamers will find something to do, solo & story-driven questing, pvp, skirmishes, 5-man dungeons, raids and so on...
i believe dungeoning has to remain challenging, and if you can't find the dedication and / or needed skill to clear a dungeon, their s other things to do... until you ll find these other 4 casual players that will go through and add em to your friend list, and some others and so on.
i admit to elitism, but the above opinion has been forged by years of dwelling in mmo's and i have seen the difficulty drop drastically since my first games.
this, i cant count the number of groups where ppl wont even answer any of your question, advice, emergency afk message or anything
doesnt help a bit indeed
Helpful.
you are, with such poor game references besides
The difficulty of Dungeons shoots up very suddenly and makes it crazy hard for pug groups to be successful. I don't believe Neverwinter is the kind of game that is going to attract hardcore players/raiding guilds, so pug should remain a viable option. At the moment it isn't.
- finding yourself in a group with inexperienced players (particularly painful if its a healer) and when I say inexperienced I mean people who have not played MMOs for a good long while. I can pretty much tell an experienced MMO player by their playstyle and persistence (ahh for the times when my guild wiped 14 times on Shade of Aran in one evening).
- at levels 30-50 new people have hardly begun to get a firm grip of their own classes (they are casual enough they dont spend hours perusing forums for builds/theorycrafting) and it shows.
- the tempo of levelling in Neverwinter is so high (especially if you throw in pvp/foundry dailies) that most people outlevel their gear pretty throughly or at least a goodly portion of it. The result being that they are actually undregeared for those dungeons.
- there is a huge qualitative difference between the first couple of dungeons and places like MD and GWD. That requires at least knowing boss behavior and key aspects of the encounter by everyone, staying alive and particular classes doing their jobs effectively.
- etc. etc.
There are more things like that and they are usually working in concert. It's not one or another. The antidote is to stick with it, update your gear steadily and find a group of like-minded friends to play with and explore
Idris is considerably easier, and so is Pirate King.
Um this is a level 2 cleric ability. Where are you getting your information O.o?
Astral Shield is that shield they place on the ground which in divine mode give healing an mitigation. non-devine gives just mitigation. This is a 50 points spent ability.
We have been playing together for more than 5 years, and we have completed dungeons in all the major MMO titles in past years.
For me, the problem is (and I posted about this in the gameplay section) that the END boss's are 500% more difficult than the rest of the bosses.
Example, me and my group of 5 did caversn or Karranax (or whatever its called) just last night and we walked it! Every boss was so easy they might as well have just died before we hit them.
Then we hit the dragon!
2 Hours later we had to quit out saying we will try again tonight (which we will)
Now whatever people say here, a guild situation is not the solution! We will, for a fact beat the dragon, we have never failed at any end bosses as a group before and we are not about to start now... However, this amazing level of difficulty for JUST the end boss's is ridiculous in a game that promotes the Pick up Group!
What happens is the PUG's play the dungeon having varying difficulty with the 'other' bosses because they are un-coperative and never even say as much as hello to each other!
Then they hit the end boss and rage quits ensue!
I just dont get this kind of game development, I really dont.
Nothing will change by us saying anything here of course, whenever does it! It's just nice to be able to at least vent about it for a while.
Art.
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There needs to be a serious rebalance to make dungeons a bit easier and broken game mechanics to be removed or toned down. Feels like the only viable way to clear most t2 is to cheese it up.
The thing is - when you include a "random queue" system in your game, you're strongly suggesting that the content one randomly queues for..... should have a reasonable chance of being completed by a random group thrown together by that queue.
If a game intends that dungeons should be "hard", or are balanced around forming set groups, then you shouldn't include a random queue system at all.
you are not suppose to use the que as an LFG tool... you are suppose to build a proper group before going into the dungeon and then quing as a 5 players... the que system is a "take a ticket, Wait inline tool" it will not build a proper group for that dungeon. use the tools the way they are ment to be used and you should be fine.
ALL bosses should be beatable on the FIRST try by an average-skilled group in average gear. I think most MMOs notion of 'you have to die repeatedly to learn the fight' is ***king moronic.
Really? Because nowhere are players told thats how the system works. "please premake your groups before using queue system". What 20% of players might think obvious, the other 80% of playerbase will be completely oblivious too.
and your the person that has made mmos decline in skill level since 2000... I like a good hard fight learn the mechanics of it and get a feeling of accomplishment when we finish it... whats the point going in to the dungeon and looking at the boss and it dies...
If you want easy hack and slash brainless boss fights go play an RPG...
I play a GF and my buddy plays a CW we cleared every dungeon leveling up with a pug group every time. we have also cleared every t1 and t2 even CN with only 1 cleric. Its to the point now that T2s are a joke if you know what to do. The key to every instances and im gonna say this now is a good CW... not the tank not the healer a good CW. Icy terrain, Steal time (in tab slot) Arcane Singularity and Shield.... My CW buddy controls the adds so well that they may move 1 time before they die.... At that point im holding the bigger adds that cannot be cc'ed... like the Maw in spellplague, makes the healers job easy...
its a dungeon que system... not a looking for group system... the name says it all. its a que whats a que... a line... whats a dungeon an instance to kill mobs and bosses get gear.. so its a line to get in side the instances.... Looking for group tool.. is a tool to build a group.. again what it is ment to be used for is in the name. X amount of groups can be in the instances at a time.. Ive had to wait 15min before in que with a pick up group of 5 people. This was because the instances was full and we were qued while the system waited for an opening in the dungeon. Its obv how the system works.
This down to a tee... its all about the control unfortunately the amount of CW's that actually do their job of control vs dps is minimal. PUG's are going to get harder with the Astral shield duration reduction and no discernible increase in healing although now the whole dungeon wont go running after the cleric as soon as they walk into the room.
Since 60, Ive run two cragmire crypts, each with ease. Maybe we just out gear it at epic difficulty, but I also think cragmire was easy to begin with.
exactly i have a knights valor once the fix that it will still be like having 2 astral shields for the party except for me ofc. But we been clearing t2s and t1s with 1 cleric right now anyways..as long as people dont stand in bad its all good
In a nut shell you add +X% bonus to damage, healing, hit points, etc for each member you add to your PUG team through the LFG Queue Tool. This helps balance the dungeon experience with those who run dungeons with friends, guild mates, etc.
For me, it's not about avoiding challenge. It's about the stupidity of a design that requires your character to DIE in order to learn.
Here's how I would do it: I would reduce the difficulty of everything by 50%. Then, every character gets ONE chance at every encounter, success or failure. That character can never again even attempt that content. Now we're getting closer to what D&D is all about.
Also, all deaths are permanent.