Here's the deal Impervium...This IS NOT D&D, it's an MMO based on D&D world, as one other poster pointed out in another post, Minus the place names, the NPC names and some basic game mechanics it's just another MMORPG.
With all due respect, that poster might have the right to say that, but he didn't have the ownership rights to say it, and neither do you. If you'd go catch up on developer interviews, you'd learn that WotC's and Cryptic's Neverwinter share the exact same canonical universe, and changes in one universe will effect the other--this is why the two entities have been working closely together.
You CAN NOT build a MMORPG that follows the rules of D&D religiously, it wouldn't work.
I know some folks and their house rules who would claim WotC CAN NOT build a play guide that follows the rules of D&D religiously. And you know what's even funnier? The D&D play guide claims that you can't follow the rules of D&D religiously. Every class, race, feat, power, and monster in the D&D game breaks the rules in some way. From minor to significant, the game is built upon exception-based rules design.
I will say this, though, if you look at the 4E rules without simply making assumptions based on forum gripes, you'll see they did a pretty good job of translating an RPG's setting and rules--or at least the principles underlying those rules--into an MMORPG. If you want something closer to tabletop, go here. But Neverwinter is aiming for something more visceral, which is exactly why WotC gave the job to Cryptic. (That link is to the same digital tabletop that was being developed for WotC by the way--WotC dropped it but allowed its devs to continue on with it and license D&D materials for use with it. )
I also think you only pulled the "well it's not D&D anyway!" argument out of your hat because I backed you into a corner.
So, on that note, the developers should focus on building a game that foster enjoyeable entertainment and a challenge. This loot situation should not be a part of that challenge, it takes away from the game.
You know what takes away from the game for me? Characters named BOOBELFLOL. Look, I sympathize there's people doing things you don't personally like, but this is a social experience and for better (and worse), it's filled with strangers. Add me to your friend list if you're on Mindflayer (my @global is in my signature). I guarantee you that I'll never roll a need on something you'd rather have, and if I do, I'll give it to you. Like I said earlier, I don't roll a need on things (and sell them) because I'm a jerk. In fact, I can almost guarantee you that I've rolled Need on teams when you would have not blamed me for taking and selling a blade or orb that might have been claimed by someone who was being nothing but offensive to the rest of the team.
BTW I never felt you were trolling, I apologize if you thought I was directing my responses to the trolls at you. You were simply suggesting an alternative way to view the situation not attacking my RL character, upbringing, or mental state.
I generally just don't respond at all to those types. There is only one troll on these forums who I respond to, he/she is kind of my pet troll and I enjoy watching them get aggravated when they don't get a rise out of me.
_
[SIGPIC]Captain Electric and the Sapien Spider[/SIGPIC]
krahctMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Impervium, what I was trying to state in that area of the post was something along these line (which I obviously failed miserably at conveying)
An MMO is a huge player base, with people from all walks of life. For a game to be enjoyeable to all of them it has to be built in a manner that equalizes game play to a degree. Hardcores want things...well hardcore. In this day and age a game design company and their title game won't survive if they cater only to the hardcore. We all want this game to be around for a long time. Like it or not that will require Cryptic to consider things such as policing loot. I know in the right environment with the hardcore D&Ders this would be blasphemy and contrary to the whole concept of evil/good etc..
One could argue the two players that rolled need for that dagger were just role playing their chaotic evil disposition, but in massively online game world this will cause problems for many.
I just don't think loot should be a part of this as it will create alot of distaste towards the game and could lead to lost players, which ultimately could be detrimental to the game's future.
"I never make mistakes, I once thought I did but I was wrong"
I get what you're saying--honestly I was getting those vibes off of you to begin with, which is why I explained how I don't allow heroes to trip over their own feet and make fools of themselves in campaigns: house rules and exceptions are there for those DMs who are more interested in fun than in making sure their players feel grief-played by an unfair universe where the gods obviously do play with dice.
My whole argument is based around the premise that if the devs want to remove the rough edges from the Need rolling issue, that's their call but it comes down to what I'd equate to more "house rules" of Neverwinter (like the way I wasn't able to accidentally fall off that broken stairwell in the Plague Tower last night--thanks devs!). I won't argue against it if that's what they decide. I don't think the situation is currently horrible...but sure, fine, maybe a lot of players feel like you do.
The system as it stands appears to have been designed the way it is quiet deliberately though. I.E. as a feature, not as a bug. I'd recommend making friends and playing with them if you want great loot passed along to you, whether you would have successfully rolled for it or not. (But I'd recommend making and playing with friends over strangers in any case.)
Let me tell you another story. One of the last things I rolled Need for ended up in my bank so that I could sell it later. But I ended up giving it to a friend who wasn't with me when I rolled Need.
Do you think I was being a jerk?
_
[SIGPIC]Captain Electric and the Sapien Spider[/SIGPIC]
...Let me tell you another story. One of the last things I rolled Need for ended up in my bank so that I could sell it later. But I ended up giving it to a friend who wasn't with me when I rolled Need.
Do you think I was being a jerk?
I bet the guy that needed it in the dungeon run thought so.
"I never make mistakes, I once thought I did but I was wrong"
Well, all I can say is to keep suggesting it, but don't be a pest about it. You're likely to collect some supporters over time, but I doubt it's going to be a priority leading up to launch, I doubt it's going to be a priority leading up to Module 1, and I doubt it'll ever be a priority if enough people don't get on board with you. Coding changes to the rolling system might involve making changes to other systems--stuff like that usually does. So you're asking them to spend resources (time, money, developers, which almost always equates to sacrificing something else that would have been in the developmental pipeline). It needs to be for something that is a pretty substantial pet peeve, otherwise you're in the same bucket as I am with BOOBELFLOL. Yeah, sucks to be us, but ultimately, we've got to shoulder some of our pet peeves in life and move on.
For what it's worth, I'd be willing to support your cause if it becomes obvious that it's a significant pet peeve for the Neverwinter community of fans. Your issue isn't a big deal to me, but if you're right about it impacting the game's future, OK, I'd consider that important. I'd come into threads and make persuasive arguments on your behalf.
What I don't support is devs turning the car around for a pet peeve that belongs to 0.5% of the player base or something (random figure out of my hat obviously).
_
[SIGPIC]Captain Electric and the Sapien Spider[/SIGPIC]
Is this what you're referring to? If so, and that's going to address my concerns then I'm satiated and will shut up.
"As always, you can keep an eye on our latest changes in the Patch Notes. We've made a lot of progress and still have a long way to go. Here’s a short list of some of the top things our team has been working on lately — things we hope to have updates on very soon:
Network performance and overall connection stability
Queue system issues (wait times, teleportation issues, group composition) Party Loot issues (better allowing players to win the items they legitimately need)
Making gear progression feel more visually and mechanically meaningful
Improving the PvP system to better reward participation
Aggro and threat balancing
Auction house bug fixes and UI improvements
Monitoring the economy to ensure that appropriate actions are taken to remove any remaining illegitimately gained currency and items"
That is indeed what I was referring to. Many of the top issues in the game which I have an issue with are, according to that article, in the works as we speak.
The thread has been cleaned.
Next time don't respond to the trolls or post in the thread for the mods to delete but rather user the report icon:
Hey Krahct, I was the guy you debated this with. See the front page of the website--big patch incoming!
Including the "Need" button being grayed out for classes that can't use it.
This isn't just to say "you were right and I was wrong", but it's true, I didn't expect them to implement this change so soon, if ever.
I also want to congratulate you on sticking to your points and keeping it civil. I think a lot of people are going to disagree with this new "house rule" of Cryptic's, but where you and me agree is that it is the kind of change that will smooth out the game's rougher edges where the social aspect is concerned. I think more people will agree with it than disagree with it.
Congrats on seeing your feedback put into the game.
_
[SIGPIC]Captain Electric and the Sapien Spider[/SIGPIC]
Hey Krahct, I was the guy you debated this with. See the front page of the website--big patch incoming!
Including the "Need" button being grayed out for classes that can't use it.
This isn't just to say "you were right and I was wrong", but it's true, I didn't expect them to implement this change so soon, if ever.
I also want to congratulate you on sticking to your points and keeping it civil. I think a lot of people are going to disagree with this new "house rule" of Cryptic's, but where you and me agree is that it is the kind of change that will smooth out the game's rougher edges where the social aspect is concerned. I think more people will agree with it than disagree with it.
Congrats on seeing your feedback put into the game.
Yeah, nice to see player community comments and issues are being addressed. I'll need to look closer at it.
I still think that this should apply only on Boss fights however I haven't read the whole patch notes yet to see how they implemented it.
"I never make mistakes, I once thought I did but I was wrong"
now can you implement a Astral diamond Deposit for the guild bank and make it like the zen sale exchange once deposited it cant be withdrawn then people could help purchase guild tabs rather then having to play the auction house
Comments
You made me smile
My most hostile poster coming to my defense..thank you.
Revision: Oops..sorry Impervium..confused you with the other fella....Ignore this one.
Now back to the debate.
With all due respect, that poster might have the right to say that, but he didn't have the ownership rights to say it, and neither do you. If you'd go catch up on developer interviews, you'd learn that WotC's and Cryptic's Neverwinter share the exact same canonical universe, and changes in one universe will effect the other--this is why the two entities have been working closely together.
I know some folks and their house rules who would claim WotC CAN NOT build a play guide that follows the rules of D&D religiously. And you know what's even funnier? The D&D play guide claims that you can't follow the rules of D&D religiously. Every class, race, feat, power, and monster in the D&D game breaks the rules in some way. From minor to significant, the game is built upon exception-based rules design.
I will say this, though, if you look at the 4E rules without simply making assumptions based on forum gripes, you'll see they did a pretty good job of translating an RPG's setting and rules--or at least the principles underlying those rules--into an MMORPG. If you want something closer to tabletop, go here. But Neverwinter is aiming for something more visceral, which is exactly why WotC gave the job to Cryptic. (That link is to the same digital tabletop that was being developed for WotC by the way--WotC dropped it but allowed its devs to continue on with it and license D&D materials for use with it.
I also think you only pulled the "well it's not D&D anyway!" argument out of your hat because I backed you into a corner.
You know what takes away from the game for me? Characters named BOOBELFLOL. Look, I sympathize there's people doing things you don't personally like, but this is a social experience and for better (and worse), it's filled with strangers. Add me to your friend list if you're on Mindflayer (my @global is in my signature). I guarantee you that I'll never roll a need on something you'd rather have, and if I do, I'll give it to you. Like I said earlier, I don't roll a need on things (and sell them) because I'm a jerk. In fact, I can almost guarantee you that I've rolled Need on teams when you would have not blamed me for taking and selling a blade or orb that might have been claimed by someone who was being nothing but offensive to the rest of the team.
I generally just don't respond at all to those types. There is only one troll on these forums who I respond to, he/she is kind of my pet troll and I enjoy watching them get aggravated when they don't get a rise out of me.
[SIGPIC]Captain Electric and the Sapien Spider[/SIGPIC]
"YES, PLEASE"
Vote YES for the Foundry in Champions Online.
@Captain-Electric | CoH/Virtue veteran | Proud new Champion
An MMO is a huge player base, with people from all walks of life. For a game to be enjoyeable to all of them it has to be built in a manner that equalizes game play to a degree. Hardcores want things...well hardcore. In this day and age a game design company and their title game won't survive if they cater only to the hardcore. We all want this game to be around for a long time. Like it or not that will require Cryptic to consider things such as policing loot. I know in the right environment with the hardcore D&Ders this would be blasphemy and contrary to the whole concept of evil/good etc..
One could argue the two players that rolled need for that dagger were just role playing their chaotic evil disposition, but in massively online game world this will cause problems for many.
I just don't think loot should be a part of this as it will create alot of distaste towards the game and could lead to lost players, which ultimately could be detrimental to the game's future.
My whole argument is based around the premise that if the devs want to remove the rough edges from the Need rolling issue, that's their call but it comes down to what I'd equate to more "house rules" of Neverwinter (like the way I wasn't able to accidentally fall off that broken stairwell in the Plague Tower last night--thanks devs!). I won't argue against it if that's what they decide. I don't think the situation is currently horrible...but sure, fine, maybe a lot of players feel like you do.
The system as it stands appears to have been designed the way it is quiet deliberately though. I.E. as a feature, not as a bug. I'd recommend making friends and playing with them if you want great loot passed along to you, whether you would have successfully rolled for it or not. (But I'd recommend making and playing with friends over strangers in any case.)
Let me tell you another story. One of the last things I rolled Need for ended up in my bank so that I could sell it later. But I ended up giving it to a friend who wasn't with me when I rolled Need.
Do you think I was being a jerk?
[SIGPIC]Captain Electric and the Sapien Spider[/SIGPIC]
"YES, PLEASE"
Vote YES for the Foundry in Champions Online.
@Captain-Electric | CoH/Virtue veteran | Proud new Champion
I bet the guy that needed it in the dungeon run thought so.
Well, all I can say is to keep suggesting it, but don't be a pest about it. You're likely to collect some supporters over time, but I doubt it's going to be a priority leading up to launch, I doubt it's going to be a priority leading up to Module 1, and I doubt it'll ever be a priority if enough people don't get on board with you. Coding changes to the rolling system might involve making changes to other systems--stuff like that usually does. So you're asking them to spend resources (time, money, developers, which almost always equates to sacrificing something else that would have been in the developmental pipeline). It needs to be for something that is a pretty substantial pet peeve, otherwise you're in the same bucket as I am with BOOBELFLOL. Yeah, sucks to be us, but ultimately, we've got to shoulder some of our pet peeves in life and move on.
For what it's worth, I'd be willing to support your cause if it becomes obvious that it's a significant pet peeve for the Neverwinter community of fans. Your issue isn't a big deal to me, but if you're right about it impacting the game's future, OK, I'd consider that important. I'd come into threads and make persuasive arguments on your behalf.
What I don't support is devs turning the car around for a pet peeve that belongs to 0.5% of the player base or something (random figure out of my hat obviously).
[SIGPIC]Captain Electric and the Sapien Spider[/SIGPIC]
"YES, PLEASE"
Vote YES for the Foundry in Champions Online.
@Captain-Electric | CoH/Virtue veteran | Proud new Champion
That is indeed what I was referring to. Many of the top issues in the game which I have an issue with are, according to that article, in the works as we speak.
The thread has been cleaned.
Next time don't respond to the trolls or post in the thread for the mods to delete but rather user the report icon:
Including the "Need" button being grayed out for classes that can't use it.
This isn't just to say "you were right and I was wrong", but it's true, I didn't expect them to implement this change so soon, if ever.
I also want to congratulate you on sticking to your points and keeping it civil. I think a lot of people are going to disagree with this new "house rule" of Cryptic's, but where you and me agree is that it is the kind of change that will smooth out the game's rougher edges where the social aspect is concerned. I think more people will agree with it than disagree with it.
Congrats on seeing your feedback put into the game.
[SIGPIC]Captain Electric and the Sapien Spider[/SIGPIC]
"YES, PLEASE"
Vote YES for the Foundry in Champions Online.
@Captain-Electric | CoH/Virtue veteran | Proud new Champion
wow ... nice argument, this game not even close with D&D rule, not even 1.0
Yeah, nice to see player community comments and issues are being addressed. I'll need to look closer at it.
I still think that this should apply only on Boss fights however I haven't read the whole patch notes yet to see how they implemented it.
I mean really, do you need a mechanic implemented when you should be monitoring this yourself?
If you don't like the way some one plays, kick them out of your group and don't play with them again - come on people - grow up.
Looting methods have been long established to what is fair for a group. It's been this way for years, now all of a sudden there is a problem? Really?
Now you have a new mechanic where only if the class can use a drop can they need it - satisfied now?
Any "Needed" gear is now account bound. Thus enabling rolling for alts if desired. If need roleld it cant be put up for auction or traded.
Will some people still need just to grief, sure they will, and get a bad rep too and will have a hard time getting groups if they continue to do so...
could still sell for gold