While I totally agree with the original poster that games are probably hurting their profits in the long run when they release too early, at some point we the gamers also have to realize what we are getting into. I have never played a game at release that did not feel like I was paying to beta test. I have never played a game at release that felt like it was anywhere near ready for release (except for Perfect World International, but that game had already been out for years in Asia and was just being released on new servers over here so it was not really a new game).
After Anarchy Online and Dark Age of Camelot I told myself I would never pay to beta test a game again and I have stayed true to that promise. This is the first game I have bothered to play so close to release since that time (and I am not paying anything as long as the product is not fit for release).
The real path to happiness is to not touch a game until 6 months to a year after it is released. Then you get a finished product. Whenever I see someone say, "This game sucks and is unready for release. I am out of here as soon as the next game is released" I know that they will just be doing the same thing to themselves again. If you don't like paying for buggy beta tests don't play games that were just released. If you really want to play games that were just released, make sure they are F2P and don't pay a cent until you are sure that you are satisfied with the product (which I am not in the case of this game). I truly am an open beta tester. Those that paid money already have unfortunately only encouraged future designers to release games too early because it has been proven time and again that you can get a quick buck if you do so.
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tanglethornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
I think think the Open Beta argument is getting old. For a lot of us, Open Beta gave the impression that the game is in its final stages and is about to be released. (Which supposedly it is) This was further in-forced by the fact the cash store is open. I, like many players felt the game was awesome during the first week. Leveling was a blast, combat while questing was awesome, the general vibe of the atmosphere was great.
They did a great job in those aspects.
However, the game quickly breaks down around 30-40. Suddenly those dailies get tiring real quick because they up the amount of times you need to do them for the turn ins and some of the Skirmishes are very long. Party leader abuse is making many of so angry its hard to get motivated to log back in. The GF and GWF players are frustrated for good reason.
I didnt buy the $200 dollar Founder pack, which was a good decision on my part. But I did buy the Hero of the North pack and a few items in the Zen store, because I was having a blast leveling to 30-40. After that is when I realized the game becomes almost unplayable for me as a GF.
I don't mind coming back later when the game is in a better shape, but unfortunately a lot of players came to the open beta for a good time and the experience may have soured a lot of players from coming back.
This is where I question PWE in regards to the "open beta" decision. I think its giving a lot of players a negative impression of the game. It should have remained closed beta until some of the basic stuff was fixed. (loot system, party leader abuse, class imbalance, etc...)
Just a really bad decision IMHO. This game has the potential to rock the socks off these other MMOs, but the damage may have already been done.
A lot of MMOs that had great potential failed because of how the launch was executed, (ie. Too early).
NW is following that same path by allowing an "Open Beta". Despite some players defending the Open Beta argument, its still having the same effect as if it were a game that was released too early.
The exact same thing happened with Warhammer Online and Star Wars Old Republic. They were released way too early. The games were incomplete, missing content (classes, dungeons, features, etc...), major class imbalance, etc. Both games, which had major potential flopped.
SWTOR flopped? Perhaps there's another SWTOR game none of us are aware of which has in fact flopped.
You're complaining about being "duped" by a game you can easily check out for free before dropping one thin dime on it?
Cryptic has already earned millions from the people that wasted their money for mounts companions,gear and cosmetics. These people are casuals and most of them haven't even reached level 60 yet. The patch will come only when people stop buying shiiit from the zen store. This is simple economics. This will take long though because people that spent 200 dollars for things that can be earned in game in about 4 T2 runs are usually thick have a lot of money. So yea . They have nothing to learn.. Cryptic knows exactly what's going on. The ones that have to start learning are the players
A lot of assumptions and opinions.Mind backing that up with some facts ?
EDIT:Actually never mind,after reading the entire thread,I've come to the conclusion it's wasted 5 minutes of my life I'll never get back.
Plenty of other free games play....go try some.
Have a nice day
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tanglethornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
SWTOR flopped? Perhaps there's another SWTOR game none of us are aware of which has in fact flopped.
You're complaining about being "duped" by a game you can easily check out for free before dropping one thin dime on it?
Star Was didn't suffer the same fate as Warhammer Online, but it didn't meet its own expectations in regards to player subscriptions. I know they lost tons of subscribers with the first 6 months and the actual numbers were posted. So the bottom line is that they screwed up and they paid big in losing a lot of players. They went free to play to try and repair the damage. I know its recently picked up some steam, but Im fairly certain its still not where they hoped and a lot of friends that I know who used to play lament on how the game could have been great.
So yeah, Star Wars did kind of flop. Is this something you weren't aware of? We can probably find the numbers if you want.
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balthezar2Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 151Arc User
I thought NWN actually did very well when it released.
It's still going, 10 yrs later. You can still get in servers if you know where.
And as far as this is open beta, it is for finding bugs, and fixing them, so that it will be better in the long run, All the whiners, quit whining or go play mario bros.
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tanglethornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's still going, 10 yrs later. You can still get in servers if you know where.
And as far as this is open beta, it is for finding bugs, and fixing them, so that it will be better in the long run, All the whiners, quit whining or go play mario bros.
This thread has clearly went over your heard. We are discussing the implications of releasing NW as Open Beta and how purchasing Cash Shop Items turns players into customers who may have the right to have opinions and voice concern in regards to the state of the game and its launch.
This thread has clearly went over your heard. We are discussing the implications of releasing NW as Open Beta and how purchasing Cash Shop Items turns players into customers who may have the right to have opinions and voice concern in regards to the state of the game and its launch.
NWN seems to be heading in that direction as well. They tried to guise it as an open beta, but its obvious that investors were tired of waiting for the profits to trickle in.
Obviously according to the OP we are talking about Neverwinter Nights, which released ~10 years ago.
There will always be tools who spend money without doing the research. If you can make money and the potential return makes the investment worth it then you have a business.
Join responsible gamers and boycott the Xbox One Don't be a fool, Open Beta with working cash shop=Live Release
MMO developers have learned that they can release an unfinished game, call it beta, include a cash shop, and they'll make a fortune in 6 weeks.
Sad but true. Look at Dragon's Prophet, which has even less polish than Neverwinter. People are pumping cash into that game too and it's in "open beta." But to play the devil's advocate here: gamers have the right to spend their hard earned parents' money on whatever they want. If they want to pump it into an unpolished, underdeveloped, exploitable and buggy game, that's their prerogative, even if it sends the wrong kind of message to developers and publishers. Let's hope we at least start to see some of that money get put back into the game and not just the cash shop.
Also... this game is free to play, that doesn't excuse it's flaws. All being free to play ever means is... that it's free to play.
Flawed reasoning is flawed. Still amazes me how many times you have to point out that simple logic on a game forum only to have the SAME people repeat it again, and again ad tedium.
Its not really investers its the IP and the studio executives that want to see profit flow. You then also take into account the game has a budget. When you go over budget, or getting close to your end budget and the executives and people that pay the paychecks start gettin alittle pissed off. Then the studio say hey well we can start an open beta but open the zen store and we can make money as we try to fix the issues in the far future. Executives arnt always in for giving out extra cash to throw at a product if they arnt sure it will succed. Thats why things have budgets and not an endless supply of cash flow.
This is true thats why my thread about this issue was closed probly. It wasnt off topic it was a general question
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tripjacksMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2013
I can understand investors pushing developers to get a product to market, that's what they put their money into it for, without the investor there'd be no product. And it's not completely a bad thing, because the desire for perfection delaying release can leave them without capital to finish. But without getting into the beta/launch argument yet again, I have to agree that this public release may indeed be somewhat of a premature presentation. For myself, I am for the most part enjoying the game as far as the game goes. I am put off by most of the z-store pricing, and find the customer support available through their contact site ridiculously inaccessible, (I've already become familiar with PWE customer support by playing Champions, so I'm used to abuse), but the game itself is ok.
Sadly, as the OP indicates - a lot of people (a lot that I know anyway) are becoming quickly dissatisfied with the pricing, number & level of exploits, and inability to get reasonable customer service. I can say this because of my guild of more than a dozen friends, mature-non exploiting gamers who play simply for the enjoyment & mutual companionship, who've played together for years and across several games, who transferred here because of the first impressions, only 3 of us remain - and the others say they won't be back.
So, this means that we'll probably all be gone within a week or two, other than a casual ftp presence, and will be looking ahead for the next long-term gaming platform. I actually hate to see it happen, because NW held such promise.
This is what a disaster looks like in the MMO market kids, hope you are making a mental note for the future. TESO better be good, all I am saying!
Join responsible gamers and boycott the Xbox One Don't be a fool, Open Beta with working cash shop=Live Release
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tanglethornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
I think another sore point like one of the previous posters pointed out was the zen prices. I think its a little unreasonable to charge for respecs, especially during Beta. There are a lot of feats, powers, etc... that people don't quite understand because of poor descriptions or game mechanics, yet we have to fork over...what is it, 600 zen to respec after we've learned that the feats\powers dont do what we interpreted.
That's another flaw in the current beta/pay system.
SWTOR flopped? Perhaps there's another SWTOR game none of us are aware of which has in fact flopped.
You're complaining about being "duped" by a game you can easily check out for free before dropping one thin dime on it?
TOR was in development for over 5 years and was pushed back almost a year when it originally was going to launch so it wasnt rushed. These are businesses first and foremost and they have deadlines they have to meet with investors or a board of directors. If you dont think its a good game thats fine but its not because it was rushed.
That being said this company does rush its products out. There are some serious exploits. They would of been better off using dummy zen to test the store and wiping characters after the beta. It would get alot better press than it is now
I didn't buy the founders pack, but 11 of my friends did. 3 did not, we had something like a 20 man guild within our 'little circle'.
It's now down to 2 people that don't even really play anymore, and everyone that bought founders charged-back. I asked them why they charged back, and it was almost unanimous 'I'm not paying to beta test a game' .
The other's who quit basically said they'll try it in a year once the economies fixed.
Also, it's a beta, soooooo, why are you here talking right now?
if this is beta I would expect a wipe after any patches of any "game braking bugs/exploits"
not only does "beta" mean that there is bugs/exploits that may need fixed, so "don't complain about those"
it also means "expect random wipes"
________
yes the staff did say there will be no wipe between beta and launch, BUT......... by your and the staff's own words... "this is still beta" therefore.... it's not launch yet, and wipes can STILL HAPPEN.
It was also common knowledge that the world was flat........Correct,he doesn't have to supply fact with his opnion.But without data,that's all it is ... an opinion.I'll respect his opinion,so long as he respects others opinions.
While I'm not thrilled at the current state of the game,so much work needs to be done,and it's best players without the stomach to see it through and take the good with the bad find something more to their liking.
I've invested in the game,time and money and I'm not going anywhere,maybe non founders and disgruntled Founders should cut their losses and move on.
If people regret spending their hard earned cash and spending their valuable time playing in an unfinished game,it's their own fault for buying into it.I for one don't regret spending money on a HotN and a Guardian pack because regardless of the problems the game currently has,I've more than had $250 worth of entertainment since the betas and headstart.
It was also common knowledge that the world was flat........Correct,he doesn't have to supply fact with his opnion.But without data,that's all it is ... an opinion.I'll respect his opinion,so long as he respects others opinions.
While I'm not thrilled at the current state of the game,so much work needs to be done,and it's best players without the stomach to see it through and take the good with the bad find something more to their liking.
I've invested in the game,time and money and I'm not going anywhere,maybe non founders and disgruntled Founders should cut their losses and move on.
If people regret spending their hard earned cash and spending their valuable time playing in an unfinished game,it's their own fault for buying into it.I for one don't regret spending money on a HotN and a Guardian pack because regardless of the problems the game currently has,I've more than had $250 worth of entertainment since the betas and headstart.
lol, simply reading the forums, has been worth it to me. there's some amuseing stuff here.
This is not the first MMO that does action combat right... Maybe outside of your little WoW circle it is, but you should probably consider broadening your MMO experience a bit.
I havent played wow in over 3 years.
The only other mmo's with action combat i know are:
Vindictus, Tera and Raiders
None of those got it right.
Guild wars 2 combat was fun but it wasnt 100% action combat
Sad but true. Look at Dragon's Prophet, which has even less polish than Neverwinter. People are pumping cash into that game too and it's in "open beta." But to play the devil's advocate here: gamers have the right to spend their hard earned parents' money on whatever they want. If they want to pump it into an unpolished, underdeveloped, exploitable and buggy game, that's their prerogative, even if it sends the wrong kind of message to developers and publishers. Let's hope we at least start to see some of that money get put back into the game and not just the cash shop.
Yeah but their is a big different about the developers and their patch politic, DP developer is Runewalker which product ROM is the biggest mountain of bugs and miss balance in MMORPGS history and still their are nerds who pay for it.
What I want to say is even their are some miss balance and bugs most of them from my experience from STO, will be fixed so the money is only lost if you throw the game in the garbage and yeah this game is still beta
Comments
After Anarchy Online and Dark Age of Camelot I told myself I would never pay to beta test a game again and I have stayed true to that promise. This is the first game I have bothered to play so close to release since that time (and I am not paying anything as long as the product is not fit for release).
The real path to happiness is to not touch a game until 6 months to a year after it is released. Then you get a finished product. Whenever I see someone say, "This game sucks and is unready for release. I am out of here as soon as the next game is released" I know that they will just be doing the same thing to themselves again. If you don't like paying for buggy beta tests don't play games that were just released. If you really want to play games that were just released, make sure they are F2P and don't pay a cent until you are sure that you are satisfied with the product (which I am not in the case of this game). I truly am an open beta tester. Those that paid money already have unfortunately only encouraged future designers to release games too early because it has been proven time and again that you can get a quick buck if you do so.
They did a great job in those aspects.
However, the game quickly breaks down around 30-40. Suddenly those dailies get tiring real quick because they up the amount of times you need to do them for the turn ins and some of the Skirmishes are very long. Party leader abuse is making many of so angry its hard to get motivated to log back in. The GF and GWF players are frustrated for good reason.
I didnt buy the $200 dollar Founder pack, which was a good decision on my part. But I did buy the Hero of the North pack and a few items in the Zen store, because I was having a blast leveling to 30-40. After that is when I realized the game becomes almost unplayable for me as a GF.
I don't mind coming back later when the game is in a better shape, but unfortunately a lot of players came to the open beta for a good time and the experience may have soured a lot of players from coming back.
This is where I question PWE in regards to the "open beta" decision. I think its giving a lot of players a negative impression of the game. It should have remained closed beta until some of the basic stuff was fixed. (loot system, party leader abuse, class imbalance, etc...)
Just a really bad decision IMHO. This game has the potential to rock the socks off these other MMOs, but the damage may have already been done.
A lot of MMOs that had great potential failed because of how the launch was executed, (ie. Too early).
NW is following that same path by allowing an "Open Beta". Despite some players defending the Open Beta argument, its still having the same effect as if it were a game that was released too early.
You're complaining about being "duped" by a game you can easily check out for free before dropping one thin dime on it?
A lot of assumptions and opinions.Mind backing that up with some facts ?
EDIT:Actually never mind,after reading the entire thread,I've come to the conclusion it's wasted 5 minutes of my life I'll never get back.
Plenty of other free games play....go try some.
Have a nice day
Star Was didn't suffer the same fate as Warhammer Online, but it didn't meet its own expectations in regards to player subscriptions. I know they lost tons of subscribers with the first 6 months and the actual numbers were posted. So the bottom line is that they screwed up and they paid big in losing a lot of players. They went free to play to try and repair the damage. I know its recently picked up some steam, but Im fairly certain its still not where they hoped and a lot of friends that I know who used to play lament on how the game could have been great.
So yeah, Star Wars did kind of flop. Is this something you weren't aware of? We can probably find the numbers if you want.
It's still going, 10 yrs later. You can still get in servers if you know where.
And as far as this is open beta, it is for finding bugs, and fixing them, so that it will be better in the long run, All the whiners, quit whining or go play mario bros.
This thread has clearly went over your heard. We are discussing the implications of releasing NW as Open Beta and how purchasing Cash Shop Items turns players into customers who may have the right to have opinions and voice concern in regards to the state of the game and its launch.
Was it too early for open beta, probably...
Obviously according to the OP we are talking about Neverwinter Nights, which released ~10 years ago.
Don't be a fool, Open Beta with working cash shop=Live Release
MMO developers have learned that they can release an unfinished game, call it beta, include a cash shop, and they'll make a fortune in 6 weeks.
Don't be a fool, Open Beta with working cash shop=Live Release
Sad but true. Look at Dragon's Prophet, which has even less polish than Neverwinter. People are pumping cash into that game too and it's in "open beta." But to play the devil's advocate here: gamers have the right to spend their hard earned parents' money on whatever they want. If they want to pump it into an unpolished, underdeveloped, exploitable and buggy game, that's their prerogative, even if it sends the wrong kind of message to developers and publishers. Let's hope we at least start to see some of that money get put back into the game and not just the cash shop.
http://www.dotallyrad.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/1912-so-much-win_inline.jpg
Also... this game is free to play, that doesn't excuse it's flaws. All being free to play ever means is... that it's free to play.
Flawed reasoning is flawed. Still amazes me how many times you have to point out that simple logic on a game forum only to have the SAME people repeat it again, and again ad tedium.
^exactly so
Sadly, as the OP indicates - a lot of people (a lot that I know anyway) are becoming quickly dissatisfied with the pricing, number & level of exploits, and inability to get reasonable customer service. I can say this because of my guild of more than a dozen friends, mature-non exploiting gamers who play simply for the enjoyment & mutual companionship, who've played together for years and across several games, who transferred here because of the first impressions, only 3 of us remain - and the others say they won't be back.
So, this means that we'll probably all be gone within a week or two, other than a casual ftp presence, and will be looking ahead for the next long-term gaming platform. I actually hate to see it happen, because NW held such promise.
Don't be a fool, Open Beta with working cash shop=Live Release
That's another flaw in the current beta/pay system.
TOR was in development for over 5 years and was pushed back almost a year when it originally was going to launch so it wasnt rushed. These are businesses first and foremost and they have deadlines they have to meet with investors or a board of directors. If you dont think its a good game thats fine but its not because it was rushed.
That being said this company does rush its products out. There are some serious exploits. They would of been better off using dummy zen to test the store and wiping characters after the beta. It would get alot better press than it is now
Problem is, alot of players dont. Well <snikkers> 100k+- didn't.
It's now down to 2 people that don't even really play anymore, and everyone that bought founders charged-back. I asked them why they charged back, and it was almost unanimous 'I'm not paying to beta test a game' .
The other's who quit basically said they'll try it in a year once the economies fixed.
if this is beta I would expect a wipe after any patches of any "game braking bugs/exploits"
not only does "beta" mean that there is bugs/exploits that may need fixed, so "don't complain about those"
it also means "expect random wipes"
________
yes the staff did say there will be no wipe between beta and launch, BUT......... by your and the staff's own words... "this is still beta" therefore.... it's not launch yet, and wipes can STILL HAPPEN.
He doesnt have to, its common knowledge.
It was also common knowledge that the world was flat........Correct,he doesn't have to supply fact with his opnion.But without data,that's all it is ... an opinion.I'll respect his opinion,so long as he respects others opinions.
While I'm not thrilled at the current state of the game,so much work needs to be done,and it's best players without the stomach to see it through and take the good with the bad find something more to their liking.
I've invested in the game,time and money and I'm not going anywhere,maybe non founders and disgruntled Founders should cut their losses and move on.
If people regret spending their hard earned cash and spending their valuable time playing in an unfinished game,it's their own fault for buying into it.I for one don't regret spending money on a HotN and a Guardian pack because regardless of the problems the game currently has,I've more than had $250 worth of entertainment since the betas and headstart.
lol, simply reading the forums, has been worth it to me. there's some amuseing stuff here.
I havent played wow in over 3 years.
The only other mmo's with action combat i know are:
Vindictus, Tera and Raiders
None of those got it right.
Guild wars 2 combat was fun but it wasnt 100% action combat
Yeah but their is a big different about the developers and their patch politic, DP developer is Runewalker which product ROM is the biggest mountain of bugs and miss balance in MMORPGS history and still their are nerds who pay for it.
What I want to say is even their are some miss balance and bugs most of them from my experience from STO, will be fixed so the money is only lost if you throw the game in the garbage and yeah this game is still beta