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Here's some feedback on the last boss on Wolf Den.

diggotdiggot Member Posts: 40 Arc User
edited May 2013 in General Discussion (PC)
You devs can take all those adds and constant spamm of AoE's and shove them
where the sun never shines. We had a team running the entire dungeon without
much problem, and then STONEWALLED on the final boss.

Adds adds adds AoE AoE adds adds AoE adds...

Is this the only way you can create hard-to-kill bosses?, by making an army of
adds coming out of nowhere, and also making the event spamm AoEs everywhere...
Post edited by diggot on
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Comments

  • abradaxabradax Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 64
    edited May 2013
    diggot wrote: »
    You devs can take all those adds and constant spamm of AoE's and shove them
    where the sun never shines. We had a team running the entire dungeon without
    much problem, and then STONEWALLED on the final boss.

    Adds adds adds AoE AoE adds adds AoE adds...

    Is this the only way you can create hard-to-kill bosses?, by making an army of
    adds coming out of nowhere, and also making the event spamm AoEs everywhere...

    As fun as I think this game is, their boss designs blow.
    If my DM kept spawning creatures instead of making a boss that could present a challenge without the need to keep fighting minions, I'd end up punching him in the mouth.

    I am in a holding pattern, logging in to evoke and doing my trade skills until the fix cleric/ GF threat or learn how to tune an encounter without using the spawn_random_enemy button.
    Lieutenant Johnathan "Seven" Abradax
    Liberated Borg -Captain USS Solstice
    Member of Starfleet Borg Task Force - Tactical Unit
  • morbynmorbyn Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Same thing happened to me. I was pretty irate after spending like an hour and a half attempting him.

    Then I decided to do some research.

    Seems the adds only spawn when the bosses melee attack hits someone, at which point two wolves spawn per person hit. I guess the strategy is to have a GF who is quick on his toes tank the boss and for everyone else to be pretty much constantly moving about to avoid his aoe attacks.

    I haven't actually gone back to try this out, but it might be worth a shot if you've got an organized group you can run with.
  • lonnehartlonnehart Member Posts: 846 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    So what's next? A "SuperUltraUltimateDietylike" boss that within the first seconds of battle turns the entire fight area red then comes out with a Oneshot Overkill attack? :)
    *sings* "I like Gammera! He's so neat!!! He is full of turtle meat!!!"

    "Hah! You are doomed! You're only armed with that pathetic excuse for a musical instrument!!!" *the Savage Beast moments before Lonnehart the Bard used music to soothe him... then beat him to death with his Fat Lute*
  • renegademarshalrenegademarshal Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 83
    edited May 2013
    I don't get it. People whine about bosses spawning too many adds. People whine about bosses not being difficult enough without the use of add spamming.

    And now people are whining about the one boss that doesn't spawn a ridiculous amount of adds and requires good reactions, smart movement, and knowledge of her mechanics to beat.

    Is there no pleasing you people? What's your ideal boss fight, a boss from Super Mario?
  • nojo2211nojo2211 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 35
    edited May 2013
    morbyn wrote: »
    Seems the adds only spawn when the bosses melee attack hits someone, at which point two wolves spawn per person hit. I guess the strategy is to have a GF who is quick on his toes tank the boss and for everyone else to be pretty much constantly moving about to avoid his aoe attacks.

    ^^^ This ^^^.

    I actually respected their design a lot more when I learned this. Just wish there was a better indicator in the game so people realized.
  • xeromus20xeromus20 Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    How is your summary of wolves den any different to any other boss? why single out that dungeon.
    Paradigm - Instigator Great Weapon Fighter - Mindflayer - 13k GS
    Instigate and Eradicate
    Alek Silverkin - Sentinel Great Weapon Fighter - Mindflayer - 11k GS
    How do you kill that which gets tankier the more you hit it?
  • abradaxabradax Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 64
    edited May 2013
    lonnehart wrote: »
    So what's next? A "SuperUltraUltimateDietylike" boss that within the first seconds of battle turns the entire fight area red then comes out with a Oneshot Overkill attack? :)

    That would actually be awesome if done right. Add some mystical stones that you have to attune to or you get one shotted, keep people on their toes.

    Make them elemental. The boss begins to summon a water attack, you have to attune to fire to counteract it.
    Lieutenant Johnathan "Seven" Abradax
    Liberated Borg -Captain USS Solstice
    Member of Starfleet Borg Task Force - Tactical Unit
  • oxydumoxydum Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    abradax wrote: »
    As fun as I think this game is, their boss designs blow.
    If my DM kept spawning creatures instead of making a boss that could present a challenge without the need to keep fighting minions, I'd end up punching him in the mouth.

    Pretty much this.

    Boss encounters should be more boss focused.
  • nojo2211nojo2211 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 35
    edited May 2013
    lonnehart wrote: »
    So what's next? A "SuperUltraUltimateDietylike" boss that within the first seconds of battle turns the entire fight area red then comes out with a Oneshot Overkill attack? :)

    Hah, first time I did the boss for Dread Vault, when the whole floor turned red I thought that's exactly what they were doing.
  • nevfenevfe Member Posts: 214 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    morbyn wrote: »
    Seems the adds only spawn when the bosses melee attack hits someone, at which point two wolves spawn per person hit. I guess the strategy is to have a GF who is quick on his toes tank the boss and for everyone else to be pretty much constantly moving about to avoid his aoe attacks.

    And how on earth is a PuG group supposed to work this out at the time? Does the boss offer any clues? Do the wolves burst out of people's chests as they are hit?

    It's not even as though the mechanic makes much sense, unless perhaps the boss gets an emote like:

    "ahhhh... my magic sword draws the lifeforce from you so that I may summon more wolves!!!! Each time I hit you I get stronger!!!! MUwahahahah!!!"
  • randomone777randomone777 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    abradax wrote: »
    As fun as I think this game is, their boss designs blow.
    If my DM kept spawning creatures instead of making a boss that could present a challenge without the need to keep fighting minions, I'd end up punching him in the mouth.

    I am in a holding pattern, logging in to evoke and doing my trade skills until the fix cleric/ GF threat or learn how to tune an encounter without using the spawn_random_enemy button.

    I have to admit, I agree with this. As a result of the abysmal encounter in the Wolf's Den, I'm pretty much just holding those quests until I out level and can solo them. Or they fix them. Or, eventually, probably just toss them and forget about them all together.

    Sorry to say it (since I know it is a common theme today), but when I think of a heroic boss encounter, I just don't think of "so you think you can dance" as what it should be like.

    Recurring waves of adds make sense for a mage boss or even a necromantic one, but even here, there should be limits. Recurrent adds plus massive AoE plus the need to dodge every 2-3 seconds is just.... well, ludicrous, frankly.

    I'd much prefer seeing boss encounters that require team work rather than forcing players to essentially forgo teamwork in the name of dance or die. This is especially overt in relation to the issue with effective hate table management.

    In fairness, it makes a certain sense for melee to need to pay attention to positioning (i.e., combat advantage, etc) and for ranged to do the same... AT RANGE... but the idea that a boss can toss an AoE that covers so much of an area that you can't possibly dodge OR that any melee hit spawns adds on top of everything else is... well, see above.

    For the person trolling about whiners... my idea of a good boss fight is one where you can actually deduce what is being required without dying 20+ times; specifically, a fight in which mechanics are introduced and then, accelerated over duration (as opposed to being dropped on you in such a manner that the only way you can figure it out is to die repeatedly to it).

    If I wanted to spend hours at a go trying to get a single instance completed or a single boss defeated, I'd still be running 90+ man EQ 1 raids. The notion that a balanced group with tank, healer, and dps at level consistently cannot defeat this encounter tells its own story and no, it's not that silly, elitist "lrn2play" <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, either.
    Maniacal mage making magical messes; mercifully, made mostly of menaces.

    Helpful links:

    Morbic's channel list
    - Guide - Custom Channels and List
  • grinningsphinxgrinningsphinx Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    diggot wrote: »
    You devs can take all those adds and constant spamm of AoE's and shove them
    where the sun never shines. We had a team running the entire dungeon without
    much problem, and then STONEWALLED on the final boss.

    Adds adds adds AoE AoE adds adds AoE adds...



    Is this the only way you can create hard-to-kill bosses?, by making an army of
    adds coming out of nowhere, and also making the event spamm AoEs everywhere...





    Its all the boss fights are....Its much harder to manage the adds then anything else....Cryptics always been rather clueless. Oh, wait, the boss is down to 75...here come the adds.....50, adds, 25, adds...5 is the last add rush.

    ****ing yawn..
  • xhivenxhiven Member Posts: 110 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    I wasn't aware this was a problem boss. Always beat him no problem in pugs. I think the key is to literally not have any fighters in the group. Every time I've done it its been with rogues, CW's and clerics. All classes interested in not getting hit by the boss. Heck, did this last night with a cleric, 2 rogues and 2 CWs. Had a ton of adds, sure, but we still beat it on the first go.

    Long story short: Fix fighters. -.-
  • vagdushvagdush Member Posts: 52
    edited May 2013
    As mentioned before, he only makes wolves when he hits with his melee attack (usually after catching someone with his pounce). Everyone should move all the time except for a pause after he pounces and after you move out of the red circle for the hands [Edit: This is when you hit him once or twice only, then move again]. Without letting him make wolves, he only summons two very manageable waves of helpers.

    When the advice is that everyone keeps moving, it really means everyone. Also, not 100% on this, but I think he gets wolves if he smacks your companion, so it is easier to just dismiss them. The only mobs that should hit anyone repeatedly is the archers and they have <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for life, so it's not much of an issue.
  • willowbeanwillowbean Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    vagdush wrote: »
    As mentioned before, he only makes wolves when he hits with his melee attack (usually after catching someone with his pounce). Everyone should move all the time except for a pause after he pounces and after you move out of the red circle for the hands [Edit: This is when you hit him once or twice only, then move again]. Without letting him make wolves, he only summons two very manageable waves of helpers.

    When the advice is that everyone keeps moving, it really means everyone. Also, not 100% on this, but I think he gets wolves if he smacks your companion, so it is easier to just dismiss them. The only mobs that should hit anyone repeatedly is the archers and they have <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for life, so it's not much of an issue.

    Boss is easy. Like above stay away from his swing. And yes Melee adds do create wolves all should have out is heal or wiz pets :) we do it with no pets out then there is only 2 wolves from the tank
  • prometheusenprometheusen Member Posts: 63 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I thought the Wolf's Den wasn't so bad. Now, the Mad Dragon... what the hell is that?? If there was a pattern to the adds I'd love to know what it is. That fight is unreasonable with the frequency of adds, the pools of AoE <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> juice, and the constant floor dodging.
  • chintaechintae Member Posts: 110 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    It's not so much that the end boss is too hard. Its that the rest of the dungeon is easy cake walk, rofl easy mode that you just plow through the dungeon with no serious worries to your red bar. Not only can one cleric heal it, they can do it without Astral Shield 9/10.

    Then you get to boss mob and you get a few adds...ok, ok. We're fine. They die, back to boss, dodge an AoE. Ok, ok, we're fine. Kill adds, dodge a few more AoE's. Ok, we're.....HOLY FYACKING SHARTBALLS ON A SHISH-KA-BOB SKEWER BATMAN!!!!!!!! It goes from challenge to way out of the park difficult when you have 2 stormcallers, enforcers and shadow wolves in addition to trying to dodge AE's that you can barely see because the two stormcallers have crossed streams while the adds are playing the cleric like a pair of Japanese kettle drums. And you have 0.00000000000025 secs to respond if you DO see the Boss' AE as even the slightest amount of lag, which has been prevalent in the game since the last two recent patches have rendered lag and reaction times to a fraction of what they were.....

    ...And you have the most insane encounter of all time.

    At lease with the Mad Dragon, each and every boss is hard and overloaded with adds and is difficult from beginning to end, but not so with Grey Wolf Den.

    I'm sorry you DEVs think this is fun, but you are out of your flipping minds.
  • nuncainvernonuncainverno Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    When the original poster reaches the Lair of the Mad Dragon (epic) he will create another thread crying about the boss mechanics by telling the story of how his team failed badly.

    Why don't you simply get better gear and improve your tactics? It isn't that hard, you know.
  • lethizorlethizor Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    chintae wrote: »
    two stormcallers have crossed streams.

    Well here is clearly a problem... NEVER cross the streams. :|


    Ah no, I have nothing really super relevant to post here excepting that yes, we need more creative mechanics.
  • bowtie8bitbowtie8bit Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    So your expert team running the dungeon couldn't figure out the trick? My goodness..

    Don't get hit by the hands that come up from the ground and you wont spawn shadow wolves. Those shadow wolves are the ones that will kill you.

    And don't miss your dodge/dash.

    Easy.
  • nojo2211nojo2211 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 35
    edited May 2013
    bowtie8bit wrote: »
    So your expert team running the dungeon couldn't figure out the trick? My goodness..

    Don't get hit by the hands that come up from the ground and you wont spawn shadow wolves. Those shadow wolves are the ones that will kill you.

    And don't miss your dodge/dash.

    Easy.

    Actually its not the hands that spawn the adds, its his sword attack. It's two adds per person hit by his frontal AOE sword attack. This includes companions, so use a ranged one or dismiss them.
  • suxip01111suxip01111 Member Posts: 217 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I ran the dungeon 9 (yes, 9) times with PUGs, I ran it until I had levelled up too much and could no longer queue for it, and then a couple of times more by making parties in the zone.

    The boss is simply too hard for randoms, the boss requires a few wipes for everyone to get the hang of it, but after a couple of wipes, everyone gets bored/tired/etc and leaves. This is a boss designed for a group of people who know each other, speak on mic, and are prepared to practice the hell out of it until they get it right.
  • xhivenxhiven Member Posts: 110 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    suxip01111 wrote: »
    The boss is simply too hard for randoms, the boss requires a few wipes for everyone to get the hang of it, but after a couple of wipes, everyone gets bored/tired/etc and leaves. This is a boss designed for a group of people who know each other, speak on mic, and are prepared to practice the hell out of it until they get it right.

    I have never run this dungeon with anyone I knew. Only pugs via the dungeon queue. Never wiped on the boss. I didn't even know how his add spawn mechanic worked until this thread. So knowledge of it obviously isn't that important.
  • cloud990plcloud990pl Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    When the original poster reaches the Lair of the Mad Dragon (epic) he will create another thread crying about the boss mechanics by telling the story of how his team failed badly.

    Why don't you simply get better gear and improve your tactics? It isn't that hard, you know.

    this
    I had problems with wolf den mostly because elite adds showed up and went berserk at cleric and it seems like GF don't have any skills to take aggro on himself (DC goes down and after him GF also CW would most probably fail if we had one). Only 3 of TR were left and after 3 tries we managed to kill boss/adds with tactical approach (bait & swith, stealth and another skill name I don't remember helped a lot).
    GF just needs skills that would prevent team (and mostly DC) from being pwned by adds
    PS Wolf Den boss itself is pretty easy but thoose adds...
  • srazysrazy Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 207 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    bowtie8bit wrote: »
    So your expert team running the dungeon couldn't figure out the trick? My goodness..

    Don't get hit by the hands that come up from the ground and you wont spawn shadow wolves. Those shadow wolves are the ones that will kill you.

    And don't miss your dodge/dash.

    Easy.

    Actually the hands only do damage, it the melee hits that spawn shadow wolfs (2 per player hit), since u get prone long enough for boss to melee u , people assume its the hands.
    That boss is super easy, u need to just kite, a direct approach will end in wipe like 90%, if u have a CW it needs to get near the boss pull him back then if u have rogues or another DC/CW use max range to hit, while at the same time having reflexes to avoid its pounce/hands since it will pounce back and forth, after a while the kiter will need help to get the adds of him, kill adds, win.
    Not a quick fight since u cant exploit like bugging the mobs or standing on the edge of a ship.
    Also the kiter needs to use quick cast spell like weaken ray or ice chill, any other spell will most likely end up on getting hit by melee.
  • diggotdiggot Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Well. If bosses in this game is going to continue to be about adds more then the boss itself... i'm moving on, there's plenty of other game out there. I enjoyed it up until now, despite its flaws. But having to deal with stupid non-logical cheap mechanics on bosses isn't my type of tea.
  • itheryelitheryel Member Posts: 335 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    I found this boss quite enjoyable, did it yesterday with me (gwf) +1 gf +2cw so 4 persons and no cleric, and we beat it.
    I dont understand what the fuzz is about '-.- (normal GWD btw not epic if that exist's not lvl 60 yet :) )

    My advice for dungeons is always , make ure own group, check everybody is social, and everybody wants boss dead 100%...
    .then roll on
    Petram Sacram - I am no devine cleric, i am a Gaurdian fighter in disguise with better threat and supportive spells -
  • postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    xeromus20 wrote: »
    How is your summary of wolves den any different to any other boss? why single out that dungeon.

    It might be tied to their level meaning they've not done higher places or the fact that the adds hit for a good deal more than the boss himself.
  • silence1k1llsilence1k1ll Member Posts: 148 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Haven't run a dungeon since Lair of the Mad Dragon. Wipe a bunch of times because clerics auto aggro all mobs, tanks aren't allowed to tank in this game, group gets frustrated, everyone drops.

    Got my PVP set, all is well for normal PVE content now.
    I ENJOY PLAYING NWO
  • ausdoerrtausdoerrt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    diggot wrote: »
    You devs can take all those adds and constant spamm of AoE's and shove them
    where the sun never shines. We had a team running the entire dungeon without
    much problem, and then STONEWALLED on the final boss.

    Adds adds adds AoE AoE adds adds AoE adds...

    Is this the only way you can create hard-to-kill bosses?, by making an army of
    adds coming out of nowhere, and also making the event spamm AoEs everywhere...

    Lol I love this encounter, one of my favorite bosses so far. Maybe you should try different builds and strategies before you slam the game. Funny enough, this boss is a bit different than the ones before it, so naturally that'd cause some difficulty on the first try.

    A little secret: groups wipe when they are inflexible and unable to cooperate properly. Run this with a good group and feel the difference. Just because you successfully zerged the rest of the dungeon, doesn't mean your group was any good.
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