Art is all about rules and breaking them when you know what the heck you're doing.
There's a great book on SciFi writing that's filled with rules, then short stories that break those rules WELL.
If you don't have an overwhelming reason to break a rule... don't.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
As for dialog/exposition... I think it has several purposes:
Buy-in
This is #1, and a failing of almost every mission I've played. Who is this guy, and why is he bad? Who are these people, and why do they need to be saved? Why should I care?
Actually spending a modest amount of time giving the player some information and emotional connection to what's going on will vastly improve the story.
Otherwise, it's run through Corridor 91b, insert sword into gnoll #5, monster pi
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I agree 100%. This is NEVERWINTER. It is part of the Forgotten Realms, a campaign system that's been in existence for about 30 years. There is PLENTY of background material available to tie a quest or campaign in to the actual world of Toril. Forgotten Realms has it's own wiki. Please USE IT.
Figure it out for yourself or obey without question.
Also, unless the exposition is life-or-death important at that moment, you can break it up further by having bits of it found in journals or notes lying around, by "random" conversations of npcs in the staging area, etc. A video game is more like a tv show than a book, storywise.
Figure it out for yourself or obey without question.
As for dialog/exposition... I think it has several purposes:
Buy-in
This is #1, and a failing of almost every mission I've played. Who is this guy, and why is he bad? Who are these people, and why do they need to be saved? Why should I care?
The funny thing is this is the ONLY reason I have any story/dialogue at all. I don't really care that much about telling any particular or specific story, but it drives me nuts if I don't feel like there's a self-consistent reason for me to be out slaughtering things.
4. Keep it simple. 'Get' instead of 'retrieve'; 'happy' instead of 'ecstatic', 'help' instead of 'assist'. Unless of course you intentionally want your character to sound formal and/or pompous.
I think it depends on the audience the author wants to appeal to. Using words tailored to the vocabulary of a third grader certainly ensures that everyone understands what is going on, but for players who value rich, descriptive language this is like an omelette cooked without salt: devoid of flavor and forgettable.
The opposite of restricting yourself to shallow basic words like "get" is not sounding like a thesaurus. There is quite a bit of ground in the middle that allows text to be descriptive and expressive without striking the reader as artificial or pompous. There is a fundamental difference between "happy" and "ecstatic" -- those emotions are simply not the same --, and "help" conveys a different meaning than "assist", for example. Why would you use a boring two-hundred-meanings-in-one word like "get" if "fetch", "obtain", "recover", "retrieve", etc. describe the task so much more accurately?
Dumbing down one's writing is not the way to improve the experience for at least a portion of the potential players. It is a way to drive them off.
I have taken to RPing with someone face to face prior to actually writing the dialog as much as possible. If they can come up with a response to a particular situation I try to recreate it in the dialog options, even if it's simply exactly what they said.
I do something sort of similar, but not specifically in a 1-on-1 dialogue to make the quest. A good number of the NPCs I use are based around players I've DMed for, and how they would play this or that character. It's easier to have them sound somewhat different when someone else's personality is in play. I found that if I try to just make characters on the fly on my own, everyone starts sounding exactly the same.
TL;DR: I'm too lousy a writer to make every NPC have a unique personality on my own, so I borrow personalities/attitudes from actual D&D players.
Dumbing down one's writing is not the way to improve the experience for at least a portion of the potential players. It is a way to drive them off.
There are different nuances with different words that have similar meanings, of course. Perhaps my examples are not so good, given the lack of context.
I'm not suggesting 'dumbing' down, but rather to avoid using big words when simple language would suffice.
Like you said, sounding like a thesaurus is bad. But you might be surprised how many writers equate the number of syllables per word with 'good' writing.
0
delthaninMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 188Bounty Hunter
I agree 100%. This is NEVERWINTER. It is part of the Forgotten Realms, a campaign system that's been in existence for about 30 years. There is PLENTY of background material available to tie a quest or campaign in to the actual world of Toril. Forgotten Realms has it's own wiki. Please USE IT.
While I prefer things based on Forgotten Realms lore, I don't mind people trying to do their own thing separate from the official setting. A few people can get pretty creative with it. I just wish they'd say at the very top that they weren't based around FR.
0
runis12Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I knew very little about Forgotten Realms lore before I started playing Foundry. The wiki has been so helpful! Spent hours researching some elven history to "fit" my story in somehow. I /facepalm at the cosmology trees though. And which god is dead or alive or whatever. Like delthanin, I prefer quests tied into FR lore and I want to keep mine tied to it, MAINLY because there are many people in Neverwinter who speak English as a second, third, fourth language like myself - those FR names and terms kind of help close in that aspect of the language barrier/gap. Kind of like medical language, it's universal. Another reason I like to keep my dialogue short, sweet, and impactful and leave the heavy stuff to optional lore NPCs. I hope I'm not trying to sound like I'm "dumbing" stuff down. /rant /rant /eat jello
edit: There's nothing wrong with going off of it too, of course! I'd just like the "not a part of FR lore" tag too. /endrant
I disagree....for one DnD is story driven, the campaigns are lore laden, and everything is based off good quality scripting. If these are not in tune with your gaming style then you should NOT be playing a DnD game in general. Other MMO's are better suited to this shallow rpg style.
Lore/story riddle campaigns are precisely what drives DnD and has for last 30 years, and I have been playing/dming for almost that long.
Mind you a DM or foundry author would be well advise to notify NWO players of a heavy script laden campaign before the plunge, but ideally every DnD savvy person knows better than to expect short(bland)not interactive scripts....which are not of DnD nature. As you are aware many of the DEV content material comes with fairly long script content and lengthy dialogue at times. This helps generate the living world and community around you as the player and create a symbiotic feel to it all.
To play DnD is to truly enjoy every facsimile of data, lore, history, and nuances that the concept and material generates.
I disagree....for one DnD is story driven, the campaigns are lore laden, and everything is based off good quality scripting. If these are not in tune with your gaming style then you should NOT be playing a DnD game in general. Other MMO's are better suited to this shallow rpg style.
I happen to believe that the majority of those who play this game have a very shallow knowledge of the lore. Considering that, a more generic fantasy tale might be passable. It might even be more relatable. To say one should not even use the foundry if they don't respect the lore and use it, I think that is wrong thinking.
Consider thy audience not thy critics-I just made that up.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] NW-DMIME87F5
Awaiting a serious response from the developers on the abuse of the review system by other authors. Video Preview
I happen to believe that the majority of those who play this game have a very shallow knowledge of the lore. Considering that, a more generic fantasy tale might be passable. It might even be more relatable. To say one should not even use the foundry if they don't respect the lore and use it, I think that is wrong thinking.
Consider thy audience not thy critics-I just made that up.
I thought it was a quote from the bible?
Anyway, I agree with you. I know very little about the lore of DnD, I simply haven't ever played it and nor do I want to. However, I do enjoy Neverwinter (including the Foundry) which appeals to a wider/ different audience. Upshot is I have no intention of learning something that only vaguely interests me in order to write someone elses quest rather than my own.
Another reason I like to keep my dialogue short, sweet, and impactful and leave the heavy stuff to optional lore NPCs. I hope I'm not trying to sound like I'm "dumbing" stuff down. /rant /rant /eat jello
Choosing accurate, expressive words instead of generic ones like "get" is what makes dialogue impactful! You don't need a pound of salt to make that omelette taste deliciously. It's the absence of any spice that causes your taste buds to fall asleep.
English isn't my first language, either, and you'll find plenty of flaws in my posts and stories, but I never have, and never will, subscribe to the theory that you can't appreciate verbal finesse only because you read something in a "foreign" language or because you are not perfect at it. I actually feel that it makes you more aware of detail and meaning, not less.
Choosing accurate, expressive words instead of generic ones like "get" is what makes dialogue impactful! You don't need a pound of salt to make that omelette taste deliciously. It's the absence of any spice that causes your taste buds to fall asleep.
English isn't my first language, either, and you'll find plenty of flaws in my posts and stories, but I never have, and never will, subscribe to the theory that you can't appreciate verbal finesse only because you read something in a "foreign" language or because you are not perfect at it. I actually feel that it makes you more aware of detail and meaning, not less.
I completely agree. I think we've all read stories over the years and come across words we hadn't seen before or couldn't remember the meaning of. Personally, I'd look it up later, or then and there, and bam, you've just added to your vocabulary. Of course, an excessive use of less commonly used terms is going to interrupt the flow of your story to those less versed in the language. It's a balancing act, and a difficult one at that. One of the things you have to pinpoint is who you want your audience to be. If you're aiming at non-English speakers, or for the general market, then yes, you may have to sacrifice a little in the eloquence department, but if you're aiming at well-read types, then they would be put off by simplified language. For the Foundry, a large percentage of players speak English as a second or third language, or care little for the eccentricities of dialogue. It's a matter of quantity over quality here, number of plays-wise. I really don't mind if my quests don't have 60 million plays, as long as those who do play them, enjoy it. I write how I would like to read. If that includes creative use of language, all the better in my eyes. It's a matter of preference at the end of the day. There are no wrongs or rights in art, just differing opinions.
I completely agree. I think we've all read stories over the years and come across words we hadn't seen before or couldn't remember the meaning of. Personally, I'd look it up later, or then and there, and bam, you've just added to your vocabulary. Of course, an excessive use of less commonly used terms is going to interrupt the flow of your story to those less versed in the language. It's a balancing act, and a difficult one at that. One of the things you have to pinpoint is who you want your audience to be. If you're aiming at non-English speakers, or for the general market, then yes, you may have to sacrifice a little in the eloquence department, but if you're aiming at well-read types, then they would be put off by simplified language. For the Foundry, a large percentage of players speak English as a second or third language, or care little for the eccentricities of dialogue. It's a matter of quantity over quality here, number of plays-wise. I really don't mind if my quests don't have 60 million plays, as long as those who do play them, enjoy it. I write how I would like to read. If that includes creative use of language, all the better in my eyes. It's a matter of preference at the end of the day. There are no wrongs or rights in art, just differing opinions.
I agree with this, and imivo's point completly. You have both been able to articulate somthing I was failing at, thank you.
Comments
There's a great book on SciFi writing that's filled with rules, then short stories that break those rules WELL.
If you don't have an overwhelming reason to break a rule... don't.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Buy-in
This is #1, and a failing of almost every mission I've played. Who is this guy, and why is he bad? Who are these people, and why do they need to be saved? Why should I care?
Actually spending a modest amount of time giving the player some information and emotional connection to what's going on will vastly improve the story.
Otherwise, it's run through Corridor 91b, insert sword into gnoll #5, monster pi
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
The funny thing is this is the ONLY reason I have any story/dialogue at all. I don't really care that much about telling any particular or specific story, but it drives me nuts if I don't feel like there's a self-consistent reason for me to be out slaughtering things.
I think it depends on the audience the author wants to appeal to. Using words tailored to the vocabulary of a third grader certainly ensures that everyone understands what is going on, but for players who value rich, descriptive language this is like an omelette cooked without salt: devoid of flavor and forgettable.
The opposite of restricting yourself to shallow basic words like "get" is not sounding like a thesaurus. There is quite a bit of ground in the middle that allows text to be descriptive and expressive without striking the reader as artificial or pompous. There is a fundamental difference between "happy" and "ecstatic" -- those emotions are simply not the same --, and "help" conveys a different meaning than "assist", for example. Why would you use a boring two-hundred-meanings-in-one word like "get" if "fetch", "obtain", "recover", "retrieve", etc. describe the task so much more accurately?
Dumbing down one's writing is not the way to improve the experience for at least a portion of the potential players. It is a way to drive them off.
I do something sort of similar, but not specifically in a 1-on-1 dialogue to make the quest. A good number of the NPCs I use are based around players I've DMed for, and how they would play this or that character. It's easier to have them sound somewhat different when someone else's personality is in play. I found that if I try to just make characters on the fly on my own, everyone starts sounding exactly the same.
TL;DR: I'm too lousy a writer to make every NPC have a unique personality on my own, so I borrow personalities/attitudes from actual D&D players.
There are different nuances with different words that have similar meanings, of course. Perhaps my examples are not so good, given the lack of context.
I'm not suggesting 'dumbing' down, but rather to avoid using big words when simple language would suffice.
Like you said, sounding like a thesaurus is bad. But you might be surprised how many writers equate the number of syllables per word with 'good' writing.
While I prefer things based on Forgotten Realms lore, I don't mind people trying to do their own thing separate from the official setting. A few people can get pretty creative with it. I just wish they'd say at the very top that they weren't based around FR.
edit: There's nothing wrong with going off of it too, of course! I'd just like the "not a part of FR lore" tag too.
Lore/story riddle campaigns are precisely what drives DnD and has for last 30 years, and I have been playing/dming for almost that long.
Mind you a DM or foundry author would be well advise to notify NWO players of a heavy script laden campaign before the plunge, but ideally every DnD savvy person knows better than to expect short(bland)not interactive scripts....which are not of DnD nature. As you are aware many of the DEV content material comes with fairly long script content and lengthy dialogue at times. This helps generate the living world and community around you as the player and create a symbiotic feel to it all.
To play DnD is to truly enjoy every facsimile of data, lore, history, and nuances that the concept and material generates.
I happen to believe that the majority of those who play this game have a very shallow knowledge of the lore. Considering that, a more generic fantasy tale might be passable. It might even be more relatable. To say one should not even use the foundry if they don't respect the lore and use it, I think that is wrong thinking.
Consider thy audience not thy critics-I just made that up.
NW-DMIME87F5
Awaiting a serious response from the developers on the abuse of the review system by other authors.
Video Preview
I thought it was a quote from the bible?
Anyway, I agree with you. I know very little about the lore of DnD, I simply haven't ever played it and nor do I want to. However, I do enjoy Neverwinter (including the Foundry) which appeals to a wider/ different audience. Upshot is I have no intention of learning something that only vaguely interests me in order to write someone elses quest rather than my own.
WIP
Choosing accurate, expressive words instead of generic ones like "get" is what makes dialogue impactful! You don't need a pound of salt to make that omelette taste deliciously. It's the absence of any spice that causes your taste buds to fall asleep.
English isn't my first language, either, and you'll find plenty of flaws in my posts and stories, but I never have, and never will, subscribe to the theory that you can't appreciate verbal finesse only because you read something in a "foreign" language or because you are not perfect at it. I actually feel that it makes you more aware of detail and meaning, not less.
I completely agree. I think we've all read stories over the years and come across words we hadn't seen before or couldn't remember the meaning of. Personally, I'd look it up later, or then and there, and bam, you've just added to your vocabulary. Of course, an excessive use of less commonly used terms is going to interrupt the flow of your story to those less versed in the language. It's a balancing act, and a difficult one at that. One of the things you have to pinpoint is who you want your audience to be. If you're aiming at non-English speakers, or for the general market, then yes, you may have to sacrifice a little in the eloquence department, but if you're aiming at well-read types, then they would be put off by simplified language. For the Foundry, a large percentage of players speak English as a second or third language, or care little for the eccentricities of dialogue. It's a matter of quantity over quality here, number of plays-wise. I really don't mind if my quests don't have 60 million plays, as long as those who do play them, enjoy it. I write how I would like to read. If that includes creative use of language, all the better in my eyes. It's a matter of preference at the end of the day. There are no wrongs or rights in art, just differing opinions.
A Friendly Reminder (NW-DAQN7H5GO) - Short, solo, story-driven quest.
Don't read China Mieville. He'll make your head freakin 'splode.
(Etiolated??)
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I agree with this, and imivo's point completly. You have both been able to articulate somthing I was failing at, thank you.