Yes, I edit my posts after I write them, but here's the thing, when you reply you quote the post as its written when you click the reply button, so if I make a claim you don't agree with, you have ample opportunity to reply to it based on what was originally written. Note that I didn't edit my post in response to anything you said. How do we know? Because you posted your response after I had already edited my post.
But regardless, the points I'm making don't become less valid because I edited my post. No one has been able to provide one piece of evidence of anyone demonstrating that they exploited prior to Saturday. Not a single one. Everyone who claims the exploit has been going on for weeks even as far back as closed beta doesn't have a leg to stand on.
I see a lot of people in this thread throwing around estimates on how much AD they believe is still in the game by precarious means. All of this is pure speculation. It is just a way of projecting fears on the rest of the community and is only providing a disservice. If anything the exploiters helped the economy. Here's how.
There has been such an overwhelming demand for trading zen into astral diamonds that even with the flood of exploited AD the value still continued to rise. Now what I have seen is people now referring to the current price as proof that there are too many AD in the marketplace. I do not believe such but have no way of proving anything. But I still understand that demand has to decrease when the Auction House is not open. It is just basic economics.
The consumer has less reasons to purchase AD therefore there will be less demand. When demand drops and supply remains the same prices will increase. Just look at the numbers of AD to Zen and it is easy to determine that there we far less people participating in this exploit and the ones who did had a very minimal effect if that.
This bug was out since the beginning of open beta. If the supply was effected in the drastic fashion AD buyers would have recieved more AD per zen from the start and would have spiked sharply on caturday. This never happened. I do not doubt that some have got away with it. Some have cheated to gain an edge. I do doubt that it affected the game economy in general.
I love how people claim counterfeiting helps an economy ...
/sigh ... knowledge of the basic principles of economics seems to be in short supply.
Quantitative Easing has the same effect as counterfeiting, there are lots of economists who think that it helps the economy under certain conditions. The idea isn't as far fetched as you'd like to believe. Hell, PW did some QE themselves by giving the founders AD at a level that is 25x and 80x what a person can refine in a day. They did this most likely not only as a method of selling packs but also a method of adding liquidity to the economy and allow for there to be a large amount of AD from the beginning for people to trade their Zen(which PW wants you to buy) for.
millacanoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 21Arc User
edited May 2013
Don't why people bother making postsabout this
The economy is broken
7 hours roll-back is not gonna fix this
In about 2-3 months the economy may fix itself. That being if in 3 months we have a lot of new players added to the game
Why would anyone think that the developer has a hands off approach to selling zen? They have it on their website for sale. If you are referring to artificially increasing or decreasing AD, this is possible. But it really wouldn't matter. If they lowered the AD into the marketplace Auction House prices would eventually drop as a result. If they increased the flow of AD into the marketplace Auction House prices would eventually go up. It would all balance out.
That's some utter made up stuff there and lots of false assumptions w/out any proof what so ever. Cryptic has never messed with the Exchange rate. It is all player driven. Perfect example is STO, the Exchange there deals with Zen/Dilithium. Rates have been steady since the game is well established and rates will change when there is increased demand for Zen or Dilithium, such as the new Legacy of Romulus (LoR) that just came out for STO. In STO, the rates did rise as the demand was up due to LoR, and people hoarded Zen so that they could later spend it in LoR. The exact same will happen when Neverwinter comes out w/ a significant expansion.
It's all stated to be player driven and if Cryptic did manipulate it then it would be price fixing and would be a serious legal liability and could destroy their reputation and the game. Also, you fail to acknowledge that their is a hard ceiling to the rate (500), which does put a cap on it of escalating out of control.
please dont post if you cant post real numbers in a sensible way
you come across as someone who cant make it in the 'outer' world so is trying to hack it on the internet
By your definition, those that says the economy is dying should be shove out of the air lock too since they are too just picking numbers out of thin air.
Op is just trying to explain an economic principle to the general public, most which has no idea what economic really means. The numbers put in there may be fictional, but the purpose is to help other understands the theory behind it, and by no means disrupts the theory.
First, there is no such thing as an "economy" in a game, there are people selling items for inflated prices and screaming "we price at what the market will bear", to be honest, only the weak minded keep people selling high by purchasing those inflated items, stop buying, and things drop in price. Either way everything is infinite in this game, it NEVER runs out, ergo, no economy.
An economy does not require a finite resource to function. Any resources that is deemed desirable and not easily obtained can and will be traded, and thus an economy will form based on that. The resources in an online game world can be vied as finite when you consider the constrain of time a player has, hence that limits his ability to obtain resources in the game, hence finite.
2) youre not an economist, noone who plays this game is an economist, economists dont even exist, "economist" is just a term that news anchors make up to attempt to give credence to their experts
3) something that ruins the economy for one person ruins the economy for everyone, since by definition an economy is based on trade.
4) heres the thing about the economy that you and pretty much noone else understands. the economy is not a physical object. the market is not a place or person and it is not being controlled by some dude in the sky with 99999 trillion AD. the market exists when one individual trades a good or a service to another individual for a set price. That price can be anything. there is no way, that has been discovered as of yet by any human, to hurt or hinder the market. trade occurs by everyone on earth and will always occur until scarcity is eliminated.
however, there are ways to hurt the market/economic process. unstable rules of the game for instance, slow the market process.
is that happening in this case though?
no.
people still trade at the AH, people still trad in AD, gold, and zen. people still trade based on the EULA. The EULA, or the rules of the game, have not changed.
what is happening then?
as i said before, inflation/deflation, with something that looks surprisingly like QE is occuring, as an arbiter is attempting to change the price of AD. Does this help or hurt the economy or the economic process? not really. This shifts the price of AD/zen/gold but that shift is just an exaggerated event of what would have already happened. the bubble will naturally bust as most people do not have 9999 and will not be able to afford the new prices, causing the seller to adapt back to prices that buyers can afford.
this stuff isnt really that hard to understand though.
You'll be surprised how many students sleep in an economics class, then come posting in forums about economics (not you)...so yes, to some it is a very abstract concept.
That's some utter made up stuff there and lots of false assumptions w/out any proof what so ever. Cryptic has never messed with the Exchange rate. It is all player driven. Perfect example is STO, the Exchange there deals with Zen/Dilithium. Rates have been steady since the game is well established and rates will change when there is increased demand for Zen or Dilithium, such as the new Legacy of Romulus (LoR) that just came out for STO. In STO, the rates did rise as the demand was up due to LoR, and people hoarded Zen so that they could later spend it in LoR. The exact same will happen when Neverwinter comes out w/ a significant expansion.
It's all stated to be player driven and if Cryptic did manipulate it then it would be price fixing and would be a serious legal liability and could destroy their reputation and the game. Also, you fail to acknowledge that their is a hard ceiling to the rate (500), which does put a cap on it of escalating out of control.
You really are in dire need of reading comprehension. Lets break this down for you to make it easier.
First part I wrote. Why would anyone think that the developer has a hands off approach to selling zen? They have it on their website for sale.
This statement is true. Yes you can buy zen on their website that is one of the ways you can get zen in this game.
Second part I wrote. If you are referring to artificially increasing or decreasing AD, this is possible. But it really wouldn't matter.
Let me explain what the word "if" means. It is the introduction of a conditional clause. "If" does not refer to fact, but instead conditional states a premise. I also used the word "possible". This is also conditional which says there is a chance it could be true but never states it as fact. Now if I wrote You are referring to artificially increasing or decreasing AD, I know for a fact that is happening. You would be correct. But I did not write that did I?
Now I am not a lawyer. I also doubt that you are as well. I also seriously doubt price fixing could be applied to this circumstance. I do not believe you understand what price fixing is so I will clear that up for you also. Price fixing occurs between MULTIPLE BUYERS or SELLERS. So in order for Cryptic to be liable for price fixing. They would have to be working together with plat farmers. And setting there prices in conjunction with the people they are trying to kick out. But since we are talking about AD that would be an even further stretch since AD must first be traded for zen which in most cases is bought with a real world currency.
Now once again I am going to use that if word so read very carefully. If Cryptic decided to manipulate the amount of AD into the game. That is by their choosing. I doubt there would be legal repercussion. But I believe you would have been better served reading what I was referring to rather than taking a clip out of context and trying to manipulate it.
Ultimately I give you an F for reading comprehension. And a D- for spunk and effort.
If the economy was "Destroyed" astral diamonds would be worthless. For anyone playing legitimately purchasing ANYTHING will be impossible. See D3 and it's 1000+ irl dollar items or 90,000,000,000 gold gear.
I love how people claim counterfeiting helps an economy ...
/sigh ... knowledge of the basic principles of economics seems to be in short supply.
Really? I expected more from a Lawyer in real life. Explain how my knowledge of economics is lacking. I broke down supply and demand as easy as I could for common folk. Why the one line out of what I wrote?
Propaganda seems to be in large supply on this forum.
You really are in dire need of reading comprehension. Lets break this down for you to make it easier.
First part I wrote. Why would anyone think that the developer has a hands off approach to selling zen? They have it on their website for sale.
This statement is true. Yes you can buy zen on their website that is one of the ways you can get zen in this game.
Second part I wrote. If you are referring to artificially increasing or decreasing AD, this is possible. But it really wouldn't matter.
Let me explain what the word "if" means. It is the introduction of a conditional clause. "If" does not refer to fact, but instead conditional states a premise. I also used the word "possible". This is also conditional which says there is a chance it could be true but never states it as fact. Now if I wrote You are referring to artificially increasing or decreasing AD, I know for a fact that is happening. You would be correct. But I did not write that did I?
Now I am not a lawyer. I also doubt that you are as well. I also seriously doubt price fixing could be applied to this circumstance. I do not believe you understand what price fixing is so I will clear that up for you also. Price fixing occurs between MULTIPLE BUYERS or SELLERS. So in order for Cryptic to be liable for price fixing. They would have to be working together with plat farmers. And setting there prices in conjunction with the people they are trying to kick out. But since we are talking about AD that would be an even further stretch since AD must first be traded for zen which in most cases is bought with a real world currency.
Now once again I am going to use that if word so read very carefully. If Cryptic decided to manipulate the amount of AD into the game. That is by their choosing. I doubt there would be legal repercussion. But I believe you would have been better served reading what I was referring to rather than taking a clip out of context and trying to manipulate it.
Ultimately I give you an F for reading comprehension. And a D- for spunk and effort.
My mistake. I was actually referring to post by:
Quote Originally Posted by possum440 View Post
"As for the ZEN mechanic, this is manipulated by the developers themselves. Like GW2 this game has to manipulate loot or convenience. The trick is to get people to buy ZEN using any means. This is done by developers artificially raising or lowering prices to make either the Ad or ZEN look more appealing. Anyone that thinks the developers have a 100% hands off approach to selling ZEN is mistaken. Anything that has to do with how this Free to Play game makes money for the developers is monitored and adjusted by those developers."
I misadvertantly replied to your post instead of that posting I quoted. So, yes, I deserve an F for reading comprehension. LOL.
"As for the ZEN mechanic, this is manipulated by the developers themselves. Like GW2 this game has to manipulate loot or convenience. The trick is to get people to buy ZEN using any means. This is done by developers artificially raising or lowering prices to make either the Ad or ZEN look more appealing. Anyone that thinks the developers have a 100% hands off approach to selling ZEN is mistaken. Anything that has to do with how this Free to Play game makes money for the developers is monitored and adjusted by those developers."
I misadvertantly replied to your post instead of that posting I quoted. So, yes, I deserve an F for reading comprehension. LOL.
That makes a lot more sense. Ya this thread appears to be riddled with theorist nutjobs that won't let facts get in the way of a good argument. For some reason they think stating something as a fact won't be questioned. Like the guy claiming there are billions of counterfeit AD that players are hording just waiting to manipulate the game economy.
Now, a portion of the population are hoarding hundreds of millions of ad they use to control/skew the economy.
Ew, I think it's that Dr. Evil guy. He's hoarding all the AD and just sitting on the sidelines waiting to ruin the game economy. Just wait because it hasn't happened before or after the bug, but it's coming. You'll see.
The in game economy won't recover. PWE may not realize how big this exploit was. I only did this exploit for about a week and I acquired over 45 trillion AD. Most of it was in the one day panic, when everyone learned about the Gateway's incorrect coding for Chrome and Firefox. Honestly you could get 100 billion at once because that's the max bid. It's not like we had to continually do it. If you do this 1000 times you've made a trillion. Most of that AD is still out there, they only tracked the money transfers to the next account. We spread them throughout several (8-9 accounts) and then make it one look normal end game.
I don't care, I'm done with this trash game. I think most people would agree that if you start asking for money on a game while it's still in beta, they are saying "We know it's not going to last but maybe if you paid me it will." Some people turned this exploit into a Zen dump for cash and I don't blame them. I couldn't do that, just seems immoral. Alas, 13 trillion AD sits in accounts, not tied to this one, obviously.
So about the economy...
80+ with over 10-30 trillion AD duped and ready to spend. All they have to do is buy everything once the AH goes back up and then resell those items for 100billion AD each. You couldn't afford anything, and they could afford to buyout whatever price you ask for an item for the sole purpose of holding the gear in demand as to create a very low return on owning an account to this game once you reach level 60. Get used to your PvP gear if you already don't have good gear for your 60s, it's the best you'll get unless you farm and wait for drops. Doesn't sound so fun, does it? You see that's the point, destroy the game from within the game. I applaud the genious but wish I didn't contribute. I'm sorry, this game did have some potential and I'd imagine it will stay afloat for a while as there are many people who play very lightly and approximately 8% of the users participate on the forums. Once they get there and see how the end game is destroyed, that will be when this game sinks.
The in game economy won't recover. PWE may not realize how big this exploit was. I only did this exploit for about a week and I acquired over 45 trillion AD. Most of it was in the one day panic, when everyone learned about the Gateway's incorrect coding for Chrome and Firefox. Honestly you could get 100 billion at once because that's the max bid. It's not like we had to continually do it. If you do this 1000 times you've made a trillion. Most of that AD is still out there, they only tracked the money transfers to the next account. We spread them throughout several (8-9 accounts) and then make it one look normal end game.
I don't care, I'm done with this trash game. I think most people would agree that if you start asking for money on a game while it's still in beta, they are saying "We know it's not going to last but maybe if you paid me it will." Some people turned this exploit into a Zen dump for cash and I don't blame them. I couldn't do that, just seems immoral. Alas, 13 trillion AD sits in accounts, not tied to this one, obviously.
So about the economy...
80+ with over 10-30 trillion AD duped and ready to spend. All they have to do is buy everything once the AH goes back up and then resell those items for 100billion AD each. You couldn't afford anything, and they could afford to buyout whatever price you ask for an item for the sole purpose of holding the gear in demand as to create a very low return on owning an account to this game once you reach level 60. Get used to your PvP gear if you already don't have good gear for your 60s, it's the best you'll get unless you farm and wait for drops. Doesn't sound so fun, does it? You see that's the point, destroy the game from within the game. I applaud the genious but wish I didn't contribute. I'm sorry, this game did have some potential and I'd imagine it will stay afloat for a while as there are many people who play very lightly and approximately 8% of the users participate on the forums. Once they get there and see how the end game is destroyed, that will be when this game sinks.
see the thing about this.
were not talking about real money. were not talking about a real economy. were not even talking about real people.
what were dealing with here, is a game. its what people spend their free time to have doing. is it fun to sit in front of an AH with all of your exploited cash and buy literally everything and just horde it all? maybe. is it something that most people will do? no.
is it fun to even play after you have full end game gear, a trillion AD, and literally nothing to do because the content is so tedious and broken that its painful to continue playing? no.
the truth of this is this: the people who exploited are all going to quit NWN, if not when they were banned then in a week, or two weeks, or a month. and when they do quit theyre going to take all of their exploited AD with them, because why would they give it all away for nothing?
even if they do give it away for nothing, that does no actual harm to the economy. it just causes an inflationary bubble.
you see, the real problem with this game isnt the "broken economy", its the terrible design decisions, the novice level development, the absolutely horrible optimization, and last not not least, the bugs. those are the things that will kill the game, and they are vastly more important than this most recent issue. yet here everyone is, talking about the AH exploit rather than the real issues about the game.
it leads me to think that this whole thing was dev run from the start, trying to get attention off the real problems so people stayed for just a little bit longer.
in the end, this game is just a cash grab, or maybe an ineptly run experiment. but itll keep going for at least a couple years, cuse thats what mmos do, they never die.
On Dragon i still see people buying stacks of 20-30k AD and listing it at higher price every day. If thats exploited AD they are controlling the market right now. If you control the market with Cheatmoney isnt the economy destroyed?
And if it is not cheatmoney then the possibility itself to control the market by having 50 Million AD and being able to trade currency without having to pay any fee is weird too.
2)
True, there was exploiting since day 1, so there's still a lot fake AD out there. Let's be negative and assume there's a LOT fake AD out there, maybe 1 billion AD - in numbers:
1.000.000.000 AD. But actually I think there's a lot less fake AD out there...
This is your negative? It takes 5seconds to get 100mil with the exploit, some guy on Reddit have bragged about having 2.7billion by himself alone. Whether or not it's true, it certainly isn't impossible.
This is your negative? It takes 5seconds to get 100mil with the exploit, some guy on Reddit have bragged about having 2.7billion by himself alone. Whether or not it's true, it certainly isn't impossible.
yeah it depends how well he schemed, if he stashed away his 2.7 billions on lvl 1 chars its easy to spot and delete it, if he created 100 accounts changes IP on every relog and even lvld those chars on em with xp exploit traded it into items and made it seem like those chars are legit, I doubt they catch more then 60%.
Then he just has to wait til everything calmed down, reclaim his stuff, sell it to gold sellers and make those 6000 dollars too.
Perhaps my 100 billion counterfeit estimate was low. The only way to fix this is to have a wealth wipe.
I am a Lawyer in real life, but I try to roleplay an honorable character
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realonechoiceMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited May 2013
Nobody talks about the Gold after you get to lvl 60 as if you've reached 60 for awhile now you will notice that potions cost gold and repair kits cost gold and you burn allot of them in Dungeons !
What I want to say is how easy is to get gold ?
It's not that easy, actually is very very very very hard to get gold ingame either by selling potions, identified or unidentified items but that takes ages so unless you are ready to spend weeks to get 5 or 10 gold in lower lvl areas (below lvl 60), what else can be done there to get some gold at a good rate ?!
When I say a good rate I mean not to waste a month to get some gold so you can buy 60 or 80 lvl 60 potions so you can go in dungeons and so on.
If I am not getting ingame gold as fast as someone else than tell me what am I doing wrong!
I find a very hard time in getting gold by any means in this game.
If I am to go in Dungeons everyday from my point of view there is no way I can realy get enough gold for that !
Help me out and please leave your opinion regarding the gold earning in game and how can this be aquired faster !
Thank you allot!
I wish you a nice run on Neverwinter Lands !
Perhaps my 100 billion counterfeit estimate was low. The only way to fix this is to have a wealth wipe.
I dont really like a wipe, because ive invested tons of time too, but it may be the only way to get this flaw out of the system. Just imagine what 50 Chinafarmers working together in a criminal enterprise could have done knowing about that exploit since day 1. Im talking about thousands of accounts with stashed away stuff. Income of several k $$ during like half a month. Some that exploit AD and stash it away each day some that sell it through goldshops some that lvl accounts to make em seem legit. Those guys know their stuff in every new game thats released and with that exploit going on I would have put all my assets to working on this, because through bugs you can earn faster then normal ways.
I dont really like a wipe, because ive invested tons of time too, but it may be the only way to get this flaw out of the system. Just imagine what 50 Chinafarmers working together in a criminal enterprise could have done knowing about that exploit since day 1. Im talking about thousands of accounts with stashed away stuff. Income of several k $$ during like half a month. Some that exploit AD and stash it away each day some that sell it through goldshops some that lvl accounts to make em seem legit. Those guys know their stuff in every new game thats released and with that exploit going on I would have put all my assets to working on this, because through bugs you can earn faster then normal ways.
It's not us Chinese peoples' fault! It was the cats! The cats, I tell you! And Lord Neverwipes!
It's not us Chinese peoples' fault! It was the cats! The cats, I tell you! And Lord Neverwipes!
Yeah wasnt really meant as saying something about chinese people either. For me Chinafarmers is more a term now for people that sell ingame currency in a professional manner
I dont really like a wipe, because ive invested tons of time too, but it may be the only way to get this flaw out of the system. Just imagine what 50 Chinafarmers working together in a criminal enterprise could have done knowing about that exploit since day 1. Im talking about thousands of accounts with stashed away stuff. Income of several k $$ during like half a month. Some that exploit AD and stash it away each day some that sell it through goldshops some that lvl accounts to make em seem legit. Those guys know their stuff in every new game thats released and with that exploit going on I would have put all my assets to working on this, because through bugs you can earn faster then normal ways.
While I was originally for a complete wipe, I have been convinced a total wipe would do more harm than good.
But, they could do a wealth wipe which would get most of the counterfeit AD and exploited items out of the system. The only way I know to do it is to set a limit on the AD you can have per account. My suggestion is to set an account limit of 2 Million (if a founder) plus 250k AD per level of the highest level character on the account. Also, make the most hoarded items (Purple armor, Cats, Nightmares, etc.) BoP.
That would take billions of counterfeit AD out of the economy, and allow things to come to some equilibrium quickly..
I am a Lawyer in real life, but I try to roleplay an honorable character
You also don't factor in AD sinks. Things that cost flat AD that the server sells, Auto Complete crafting, auto level companion, etc. That will lower the overall AD gained per person per day.
Also, can't a player only generate 24000 AD a day from rough AD? If you do 1 profession auto complete you use 10 - 50k AD for just that.
It personally doesn't matter to me because I don't farm purples, I buy lockboxes so as long as the market adjusts with the AD value, I have no determent from it.
Example:
There is 100,000,000 AD in the economy
Inferno Nightmare sells for 1 million AD
I sell mine for 1 million AD
Normal Purple Item that I want sells for 300k AD
There is 200,000,000 AD in the economy
Inferno Nightmare sells for 2 million AD
I sell mine for 2 million AD
Normal Purple Item that I want sells for 600k AD or less
The value of AD stayed the same, the only people effected are those that:
A: do not spend real money thus have no artifical gains on AD
B: do not sell on the auction house to eat up the new prices
C: people who generate AD from server to user transactions, praying, questing, etc where the AD value will not scale with the market value.
Again, I don't quest for AD, nor do I pray for my AD as a primary means, so no the economy would not effect me. However, if an exploiter was sitting on 100 million AD and decided to crash the economy by randomly overloading it with purchases (buying all the purple gear I need for 300k and relisting it for 5 million AD, while leaving inferno mounts at 1 million AD) that would effect me.
It doesn't seem like the exploiters are / were crashing the economy though, they were just playing like they had a lot of AD.
While I was originally for a complete wipe, I have been convinced a total wipe would do more harm than good.
But, they could do a wealth wipe which would get most of the counterfeit AD and exploited items out of the system. The only way I know to do it is to set a limit on the AD you can have per account. My suggestion is to set an account limit of 2 Million (if a founder) plus 250k AD per level of the highest level character on the account. Also, make the most hoarded items (Purple armor, Cats, Nightmares, etc.) BoP.
That would take billions of counterfeit AD out of the economy, and allow things to come to some equilibrium quickly..
Great idea except, what about the $1200 + I spent on lockboxes ?
Where I got... you know 1000 jeweled idols that give me 40,000 AD per?
or the enchantments and mounts that I sold for 200k to 2 million AD per?
or how about people that sold their paid for ZEN for AD? Just disregard them? Screw it lets set it to 2 million / 250k right? That is a great answer?
I have to assume you are a free player, sorry.
*Edit* oh and I didn't even read the best part, you want to make nightmares BOP? Why? So that people like me no longer spend money on ZEN to open lock boxes? Yea I'd love to spend another thousand dollars and have like 40 nightmares that I can't sell or trade.
I really think you should be hired by some up and coming game company, you sir are a genius.
Comments
Yes, I edit my posts after I write them, but here's the thing, when you reply you quote the post as its written when you click the reply button, so if I make a claim you don't agree with, you have ample opportunity to reply to it based on what was originally written. Note that I didn't edit my post in response to anything you said. How do we know? Because you posted your response after I had already edited my post.
But regardless, the points I'm making don't become less valid because I edited my post. No one has been able to provide one piece of evidence of anyone demonstrating that they exploited prior to Saturday. Not a single one. Everyone who claims the exploit has been going on for weeks even as far back as closed beta doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Neverwinter Official Wiki - http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/
There has been such an overwhelming demand for trading zen into astral diamonds that even with the flood of exploited AD the value still continued to rise. Now what I have seen is people now referring to the current price as proof that there are too many AD in the marketplace. I do not believe such but have no way of proving anything. But I still understand that demand has to decrease when the Auction House is not open. It is just basic economics.
The consumer has less reasons to purchase AD therefore there will be less demand. When demand drops and supply remains the same prices will increase. Just look at the numbers of AD to Zen and it is easy to determine that there we far less people participating in this exploit and the ones who did had a very minimal effect if that.
This bug was out since the beginning of open beta. If the supply was effected in the drastic fashion AD buyers would have recieved more AD per zen from the start and would have spiked sharply on caturday. This never happened. I do not doubt that some have got away with it. Some have cheated to gain an edge. I do doubt that it affected the game economy in general.
I love how people claim counterfeiting helps an economy ...
/sigh ... knowledge of the basic principles of economics seems to be in short supply.
Quantitative Easing has the same effect as counterfeiting, there are lots of economists who think that it helps the economy under certain conditions. The idea isn't as far fetched as you'd like to believe. Hell, PW did some QE themselves by giving the founders AD at a level that is 25x and 80x what a person can refine in a day. They did this most likely not only as a method of selling packs but also a method of adding liquidity to the economy and allow for there to be a large amount of AD from the beginning for people to trade their Zen(which PW wants you to buy) for.
Neverwinter Official Wiki - http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/
The economy is broken
7 hours roll-back is not gonna fix this
In about 2-3 months the economy may fix itself. That being if in 3 months we have a lot of new players added to the game
That's some utter made up stuff there and lots of false assumptions w/out any proof what so ever. Cryptic has never messed with the Exchange rate. It is all player driven. Perfect example is STO, the Exchange there deals with Zen/Dilithium. Rates have been steady since the game is well established and rates will change when there is increased demand for Zen or Dilithium, such as the new Legacy of Romulus (LoR) that just came out for STO. In STO, the rates did rise as the demand was up due to LoR, and people hoarded Zen so that they could later spend it in LoR. The exact same will happen when Neverwinter comes out w/ a significant expansion.
It's all stated to be player driven and if Cryptic did manipulate it then it would be price fixing and would be a serious legal liability and could destroy their reputation and the game. Also, you fail to acknowledge that their is a hard ceiling to the rate (500), which does put a cap on it of escalating out of control.
By your definition, those that says the economy is dying should be shove out of the air lock too since they are too just picking numbers out of thin air.
Op is just trying to explain an economic principle to the general public, most which has no idea what economic really means. The numbers put in there may be fictional, but the purpose is to help other understands the theory behind it, and by no means disrupts the theory.
An economy does not require a finite resource to function. Any resources that is deemed desirable and not easily obtained can and will be traded, and thus an economy will form based on that. The resources in an online game world can be vied as finite when you consider the constrain of time a player has, hence that limits his ability to obtain resources in the game, hence finite.
Human behavior is also part of the economy.
You'll be surprised how many students sleep in an economics class, then come posting in forums about economics (not you)...so yes, to some it is a very abstract concept.
You really are in dire need of reading comprehension. Lets break this down for you to make it easier.
First part I wrote. Why would anyone think that the developer has a hands off approach to selling zen? They have it on their website for sale.
This statement is true. Yes you can buy zen on their website that is one of the ways you can get zen in this game.
Second part I wrote. If you are referring to artificially increasing or decreasing AD, this is possible. But it really wouldn't matter.
Let me explain what the word "if" means. It is the introduction of a conditional clause. "If" does not refer to fact, but instead conditional states a premise. I also used the word "possible". This is also conditional which says there is a chance it could be true but never states it as fact. Now if I wrote You are referring to artificially increasing or decreasing AD, I know for a fact that is happening. You would be correct. But I did not write that did I?
Now I am not a lawyer. I also doubt that you are as well. I also seriously doubt price fixing could be applied to this circumstance. I do not believe you understand what price fixing is so I will clear that up for you also. Price fixing occurs between MULTIPLE BUYERS or SELLERS. So in order for Cryptic to be liable for price fixing. They would have to be working together with plat farmers. And setting there prices in conjunction with the people they are trying to kick out. But since we are talking about AD that would be an even further stretch since AD must first be traded for zen which in most cases is bought with a real world currency.
Now once again I am going to use that if word so read very carefully. If Cryptic decided to manipulate the amount of AD into the game. That is by their choosing. I doubt there would be legal repercussion. But I believe you would have been better served reading what I was referring to rather than taking a clip out of context and trying to manipulate it.
Ultimately I give you an F for reading comprehension. And a D- for spunk and effort.
Really? I expected more from a Lawyer in real life. Explain how my knowledge of economics is lacking. I broke down supply and demand as easy as I could for common folk. Why the one line out of what I wrote?
Propaganda seems to be in large supply on this forum.
My mistake. I was actually referring to post by:
Quote Originally Posted by possum440 View Post
"As for the ZEN mechanic, this is manipulated by the developers themselves. Like GW2 this game has to manipulate loot or convenience. The trick is to get people to buy ZEN using any means. This is done by developers artificially raising or lowering prices to make either the Ad or ZEN look more appealing. Anyone that thinks the developers have a 100% hands off approach to selling ZEN is mistaken. Anything that has to do with how this Free to Play game makes money for the developers is monitored and adjusted by those developers."
I misadvertantly replied to your post instead of that posting I quoted. So, yes, I deserve an F for reading comprehension. LOL.
That makes a lot more sense. Ya this thread appears to be riddled with theorist nutjobs that won't let facts get in the way of a good argument. For some reason they think stating something as a fact won't be questioned. Like the guy claiming there are billions of counterfeit AD that players are hording just waiting to manipulate the game economy.
What is your source for this factual statement counselor?
Ew, I think it's that Dr. Evil guy. He's hoarding all the AD and just sitting on the sidelines waiting to ruin the game economy. Just wait because it hasn't happened before or after the bug, but it's coming. You'll see.
Again we need a source. Where are you getting this number from?
The only thing evident is your lack of evidence counselor. Or do you consider the forums your opening statement.
I don't care, I'm done with this trash game. I think most people would agree that if you start asking for money on a game while it's still in beta, they are saying "We know it's not going to last but maybe if you paid me it will." Some people turned this exploit into a Zen dump for cash and I don't blame them. I couldn't do that, just seems immoral. Alas, 13 trillion AD sits in accounts, not tied to this one, obviously.
So about the economy...
80+ with over 10-30 trillion AD duped and ready to spend. All they have to do is buy everything once the AH goes back up and then resell those items for 100billion AD each. You couldn't afford anything, and they could afford to buyout whatever price you ask for an item for the sole purpose of holding the gear in demand as to create a very low return on owning an account to this game once you reach level 60. Get used to your PvP gear if you already don't have good gear for your 60s, it's the best you'll get unless you farm and wait for drops. Doesn't sound so fun, does it? You see that's the point, destroy the game from within the game. I applaud the genious but wish I didn't contribute. I'm sorry, this game did have some potential and I'd imagine it will stay afloat for a while as there are many people who play very lightly and approximately 8% of the users participate on the forums. Once they get there and see how the end game is destroyed, that will be when this game sinks.
see the thing about this.
were not talking about real money. were not talking about a real economy. were not even talking about real people.
what were dealing with here, is a game. its what people spend their free time to have doing. is it fun to sit in front of an AH with all of your exploited cash and buy literally everything and just horde it all? maybe. is it something that most people will do? no.
is it fun to even play after you have full end game gear, a trillion AD, and literally nothing to do because the content is so tedious and broken that its painful to continue playing? no.
the truth of this is this: the people who exploited are all going to quit NWN, if not when they were banned then in a week, or two weeks, or a month. and when they do quit theyre going to take all of their exploited AD with them, because why would they give it all away for nothing?
even if they do give it away for nothing, that does no actual harm to the economy. it just causes an inflationary bubble.
you see, the real problem with this game isnt the "broken economy", its the terrible design decisions, the novice level development, the absolutely horrible optimization, and last not not least, the bugs. those are the things that will kill the game, and they are vastly more important than this most recent issue. yet here everyone is, talking about the AH exploit rather than the real issues about the game.
it leads me to think that this whole thing was dev run from the start, trying to get attention off the real problems so people stayed for just a little bit longer.
in the end, this game is just a cash grab, or maybe an ineptly run experiment. but itll keep going for at least a couple years, cuse thats what mmos do, they never die.
And if it is not cheatmoney then the possibility itself to control the market by having 50 Million AD and being able to trade currency without having to pay any fee is weird too.
This is your negative? It takes 5seconds to get 100mil with the exploit, some guy on Reddit have bragged about having 2.7billion by himself alone. Whether or not it's true, it certainly isn't impossible.
yeah it depends how well he schemed, if he stashed away his 2.7 billions on lvl 1 chars its easy to spot and delete it, if he created 100 accounts changes IP on every relog and even lvld those chars on em with xp exploit traded it into items and made it seem like those chars are legit, I doubt they catch more then 60%.
Then he just has to wait til everything calmed down, reclaim his stuff, sell it to gold sellers and make those 6000 dollars too.
What I want to say is how easy is to get gold ?
It's not that easy, actually is very very very very hard to get gold ingame either by selling potions, identified or unidentified items but that takes ages so unless you are ready to spend weeks to get 5 or 10 gold in lower lvl areas (below lvl 60), what else can be done there to get some gold at a good rate ?!
When I say a good rate I mean not to waste a month to get some gold so you can buy 60 or 80 lvl 60 potions so you can go in dungeons and so on.
If I am not getting ingame gold as fast as someone else than tell me what am I doing wrong!
I find a very hard time in getting gold by any means in this game.
If I am to go in Dungeons everyday from my point of view there is no way I can realy get enough gold for that !
Help me out and please leave your opinion regarding the gold earning in game and how can this be aquired faster !
Thank you allot!
I wish you a nice run on Neverwinter Lands !
I dont really like a wipe, because ive invested tons of time too, but it may be the only way to get this flaw out of the system. Just imagine what 50 Chinafarmers working together in a criminal enterprise could have done knowing about that exploit since day 1. Im talking about thousands of accounts with stashed away stuff. Income of several k $$ during like half a month. Some that exploit AD and stash it away each day some that sell it through goldshops some that lvl accounts to make em seem legit. Those guys know their stuff in every new game thats released and with that exploit going on I would have put all my assets to working on this, because through bugs you can earn faster then normal ways.
It's not us Chinese peoples' fault! It was the cats! The cats, I tell you! And Lord Neverwipes!
Yeah
While I was originally for a complete wipe, I have been convinced a total wipe would do more harm than good.
But, they could do a wealth wipe which would get most of the counterfeit AD and exploited items out of the system. The only way I know to do it is to set a limit on the AD you can have per account. My suggestion is to set an account limit of 2 Million (if a founder) plus 250k AD per level of the highest level character on the account. Also, make the most hoarded items (Purple armor, Cats, Nightmares, etc.) BoP.
That would take billions of counterfeit AD out of the economy, and allow things to come to some equilibrium quickly..
Also, can't a player only generate 24000 AD a day from rough AD? If you do 1 profession auto complete you use 10 - 50k AD for just that.
It personally doesn't matter to me because I don't farm purples, I buy lockboxes so as long as the market adjusts with the AD value, I have no determent from it.
Example:
There is 100,000,000 AD in the economy
Inferno Nightmare sells for 1 million AD
I sell mine for 1 million AD
Normal Purple Item that I want sells for 300k AD
There is 200,000,000 AD in the economy
Inferno Nightmare sells for 2 million AD
I sell mine for 2 million AD
Normal Purple Item that I want sells for 600k AD or less
The value of AD stayed the same, the only people effected are those that:
A: do not spend real money thus have no artifical gains on AD
B: do not sell on the auction house to eat up the new prices
C: people who generate AD from server to user transactions, praying, questing, etc where the AD value will not scale with the market value.
Again, I don't quest for AD, nor do I pray for my AD as a primary means, so no the economy would not effect me. However, if an exploiter was sitting on 100 million AD and decided to crash the economy by randomly overloading it with purchases (buying all the purple gear I need for 300k and relisting it for 5 million AD, while leaving inferno mounts at 1 million AD) that would effect me.
It doesn't seem like the exploiters are / were crashing the economy though, they were just playing like they had a lot of AD.
Great idea except, what about the $1200 + I spent on lockboxes ?
Where I got... you know 1000 jeweled idols that give me 40,000 AD per?
or the enchantments and mounts that I sold for 200k to 2 million AD per?
or how about people that sold their paid for ZEN for AD? Just disregard them? Screw it lets set it to 2 million / 250k right? That is a great answer?
I have to assume you are a free player, sorry.
*Edit* oh and I didn't even read the best part, you want to make nightmares BOP? Why? So that people like me no longer spend money on ZEN to open lock boxes? Yea I'd love to spend another thousand dollars and have like 40 nightmares that I can't sell or trade.
I really think you should be hired by some up and coming game company, you sir are a genius.