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To the boy who cries 'nerf' and the devs that listen

yeruneyerune Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited May 2013 in General Discussion (PC)
Please don't.

I just spotted a dev-post stating they would take player-feedback into consideration for class-balancing.

But as far as I can tell, there hasn't been any player-feedback on these forums. What there is in abundance, are posts of people that cry 'nerf'.

- they only provide anecdotal 'evidence' (I got oneshot killed by that class, so it must be OP)
- they compare skills without playing the class (Class X can CC, crit, heal, fly, do one-handed-backflips and I can't, so X is OP)
- they play PvP solo (just try to look for the word 'team' in their posts, it won't be there, it's all about "I lost to X, nerf X"
- their experience with PvP is (sometimes) below level 60, where balance is just messed up due to upscaling, not OPness of any one class.

So, to the boys, please, if you really think a class is OP, proof it. Logs, screenshots and play the class yourself.
To the devs, please don't consider the vocal minority's personal grievances as a solid base for class-balance.

There will always be greener grass on the lawn of another class, and no shortage of herde to moan about it.
Post edited by yerune on
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Comments

  • ceonnynceonnyn Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Um... we've been posting feedback for a long time now. They just haven't done anything.

    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?200182-Sticky-Please-Currently-bugged-broken-GF-powers-amp-feats
  • azuregateazuregate Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Devs listen in this game?
  • capgarnascapgarnas Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 500 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    yerune wrote: »
    Please don't.

    I just spotted a dev-post stating they would take player-feedback into consideration for class-balancing.

    But as far as I can tell, there hasn't been any player-feedback on these forums. What there is in abundance, are posts of people that cry 'nerf'.

    - they only provide anecdotal 'evidence' (I got oneshot killed by that class, so it must be OP)
    - they compare skills without playing the class (Class X can CC, crit, heal, fly, do one-handed-backflips and I can't, so X is OP)
    - they play PvP solo (just try to look for the word 'team' in their posts, it won't be there, it's all about "I lost to X, nerf X"
    - their experience with PvP is (sometimes) below level 60, where balance is just messed up due to upscaling, not OPness of any one class.

    So, to the boys, please, if you really think a class is OP, proof it. Logs, screenshots and play the class yourself.
    To the devs, please don't consider the vocal minority's personal grievances as a solid base for class-balance.

    There will always be greener grass on the lawn of another class, and no shortage of herde to moan about it.

    Did you know i'm a real life mentalist. I'm going to work out with my mind what class you play.

    Give me a moment




    Is it a Rogue!
  • aronwenaronwen Member Posts: 102
    edited May 2013
    capgarnas wrote: »
    Did you know i'm a real life mentalist. I'm going to work out with my mind what class you play.

    Give me a moment




    Is it a Rogue!
    or CW...

    to op- I don't know why you bother denying how unbalanced pvp is, no one has to waste their time screen shotting every time a rogue crits for 30k, or when a CW instagibs someone with an easy to pull combo or the fact that teams with a cleric facing one without a cleric is almost going to always win. Defense is useless in pvp and damage in general is just way too high and too many people don't find games that have pvp systems that involves killing someone in 1~4 hits enjoyable. There is a reason why in many games damage is toned down and cool downs are increased for pvp specifically. Rewards in pvp aren't even balanced either.
  • rhoricrhoric Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    PvPers look behind you and see that door. Go through it and don't come back. PvPers kill games that are primarily PvE.
  • marzattakzmarzattakz Member Posts: 48
    edited May 2013
    Honestly who cares what class the OP plays, take off your LOLZ DA ROGUE glasses and actually READ what he's saying.

    If more than one sentence is hard to comprehend I'll summarise for you: Collate factual proof taken outside of a solo context, then post your findings for the dev team to look at.
  • genryu20genryu20 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 2
    edited May 2013
    Maybe classes arent OP its just the fact of another exploit thats been found for cheating. And devs have been notified now.
  • rangurenranguren Member Posts: 4
    edited May 2013
    now that somebody mention this, I'm really curious, why the GWF got power nerf? what the GWF look like before nerf? because I feel so much damage in CW, of course it is the only glass canon, but why not GWF? isnt GWF should be 2nd power house in town, because from what I saw till now it isnt punch that much power.
  • ganjaman1ganjaman1 Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Who cares about PvP anyways , you gain nothing from it = pointless .
  • jn2002dk1jn2002dk1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    While you're absolutely right that people should post proof of their claims i think you're severely underestimating the devs here

    They have access to all the numbers and obviously they're not going to tweak class balance based on people just crying nerf with no evidence at all
  • rawsome83rawsome83 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Silverstars Posts: 27 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    If you usually don't pvp, then don't pvp.. I know, it's a grim viewpoint, but hey.. The game is in a broken state. So let the pvp'ers have a go at it, and let them figure out what class is OP or not.

    The bad part about this is, anyone getting a nerf ain't getting a nerf i pvp only... It carries through to pve in 90% of the cases.. So think about that too when whining..
    Mayor of herp derp town.
  • covencoven Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Nerfing is bad! Very bad. Starting nerfs begins a vicious cycle. Once it starts it just keeps going and never ends. Classes aren't supposed to be equal in power(s). If they were, what would be the point in different classes. Most people who cry nerf just don't like the fact that another player's character/class can best them, No-one likes to be beat down. Or simply one player doesn't quite know how to play their class as well as another player might know how to play a different class.

    "- they play PvP solo (just try to look for the word 'team' in their posts, it won't be there, it's all about "I lost to X, nerf X"
    {Quote by: yerune} And a very poignant, truthful quote.

    Nerfing is just another way to mess up a good game. How about instead of going backwards and nerfing, look forward and do something proactive in order to obtain what is perceived as "balanced", if really necessary.
  • sallee132sallee132 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 2
    edited May 2013
    GF is little underpower but not if u know to play well with him,rest of classes are good
  • rs2965rs2965 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    ganjaman1 wrote: »
    Who cares about PvP anyways , you gain nothing from it = pointless .

    Actually, it's the skirmishes which are pointless to play if rewards are what you're looking for.

    I don't play a DPS class and I agree with the OP. The answer shouldn't always be a nerf.

    They could take a moment or two to help out the GF though...
  • rawsome83rawsome83 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Silverstars Posts: 27 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    coven wrote: »
    Nerfing is bad! Very bad. Starting nerfs begins a vicious cycle. Once it starts it just keeps going and never ends. Classes aren't supposed to be equal in power(s). If they were, what would be the point in different classes. Most people who cry nerf just don't like the fact that another player's character/class can best them, No-one likes to be beat down. Or simply one player doesn't quite know how to play their class as well as another player might know how to play a different class.

    "- they play PvP solo (just try to look for the word 'team' in their posts, it won't be there, it's all about "I lost to X, nerf X"
    {Quote by: yerune} And a very poignant, truthful quote.

    Nerfing is just another way to mess up a good game. How about instead of going backwards and nerfing, look forward and do something proactive in order to obtain what is perceived as "balanced", if really necessary.

    Agree.. Know what I do when I realize another class is better than mine? Re-roll. If only all ppl did that instead of whine
    Mayor of herp derp town.
  • yeruneyerune Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    aronwen wrote: »
    or CW...

    to op- I don't know why you bother denying how unbalanced pvp is, no one has to waste their time screen shotting every time a rogue crits for 30k, or when a CW instagibs someone with an easy to pull combo or the fact that teams with a cleric facing one without a cleric is almost going to always win.

    Instead you waste your time whining about it? How is that more productive than supplying actual footage and data?

    I'm not saying the classes are perfect and balanced, some need more tweaking than others. But please, NOT based on hearsay and biased frustration.

    And yes, the devs read. I'm just worried what they'll do with it.

    To the others, thanks for the support. Facerolling the berfbat is bad for everyone.
  • calaminthacalamintha Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    coven wrote: »
    Nerfing is bad! Very bad. Starting nerfs begins a vicious cycle. Once it starts it just keeps going and never ends.

    The opposite is also true. Constantly buffing classes leads to power creep but doing nothing leads to no one playing those underpowered classes.
    rawsome83 wrote: »
    Agree.. Know what I do when I realize another class is better than mine? Re-roll. If only all ppl did that instead of whine

    And that's the worst possible end result of this.
  • danck1234danck1234 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I only have 1 real balance concern, which makes both PvP and PvE really wierd. It is the way the Cleric's Astral Shield stack with eachother. Astral Shield is a good ability, but it becomes fairly silly when it can be twice as effective if you have 2 Clerics. Makes alot of PvE encounters far too easy and it makes for some wierd situations in PvP.
  • borneolborneol Member Posts: 174 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    yerune wrote: »
    Instead you waste your time whining about it? How is that more productive than supplying actual footage and data?

    I'm not saying the classes are perfect and balanced, some need more tweaking than others. But please, NOT based on hearsay and biased frustration.

    And yes, the devs read. I'm just worried what they'll do with it.

    To the others, thanks for the support. Facerolling the berfbat is bad for everyone.

    Providing evidence is great and all but it's not always realistic when it comes to balance. You could do video about how long you can CC someone or how much you can crit, and stuff like that. But balance is much more complex and it can't all be captured in a video. Numbers would help but good stats are extremely difficult to produce unless the developer provides them.

    If it feels wrong and a lot of people agree that it feels wrong, then it probably is wrong. Not everything can or should be just about raw data.
  • jmerithewjmerithew Member Posts: 137 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    yerune wrote: »
    Please don't.

    I just spotted a dev-post stating they would take player-feedback into consideration for class-balancing.

    But as far as I can tell, there hasn't been any player-feedback on these forums. What there is in abundance, are posts of people that cry 'nerf'.

    - they only provide anecdotal 'evidence' (I got oneshot killed by that class, so it must be OP)
    - they compare skills without playing the class (Class X can CC, crit, heal, fly, do one-handed-backflips and I can't, so X is OP)
    - they play PvP solo (just try to look for the word 'team' in their posts, it won't be there, it's all about "I lost to X, nerf X"
    - their experience with PvP is (sometimes) below level 60, where balance is just messed up due to upscaling, not OPness of any one class.

    So, to the boys, please, if you really think a class is OP, proof it. Logs, screenshots and play the class yourself.
    To the devs, please don't consider the vocal minority's personal grievances as a solid base for class-balance.

    There will always be greener grass on the lawn of another class, and no shortage of herde to moan about it.
    I wouldn't worry too much about this, the "we're listening" is pretty much just the canned generic response to everything. In the case of class balance I saw it mostly thrown at the current pve situation where it's more efficient to drop the tank for another healer. Considering they haven't made any considerable changes I think you're probably safe with your broken game, so no worries!
  • darkylorddarkylord Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 19
    edited May 2013
    A few things on this topic :

    - Balancing classes should not be based only on PVP. PVE is a major part of this game and at this point it is where the major class fixes should be focused on in order to make every class able to perform it's role correctly.

    - This game is not really about class power but about it's part in a team. Everything important here happens in teams after all. If they try to make everyone more and more powerful/weaker to balance things out the game will fail. Instead they should try to make the classes better and better into their role (sometimes it may even mean weaking them a little in one area and upgrading them in an other).

    - I don't think any class needs nerfing, I think GF and GWF just need some balance to what their are supposed to do. But that may also be mostly a different kind of problem (argo issues).

    - Something a lot of people don't seem to realize is that pvp is not about kills, it's domination. Well, for now anyway. Unfortunatelly that means that teamwork is critical to win.

    - Again, I don't think there should be balance based on power but if that was the case, they shouldn't all be equal anyway. A rogue should be able to kill a wiz, a guardian should be able to kill a rogue etc etc.


    Anyway my point is, I don't feel like there is a need for balance. I feel like some classes can't perform their role well enough and that's where the fixes should focus.
  • chai23chai23 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Nerfing doesn't make the game better, buffing does. If one class is better than another, whats the better option, to make the good class less desirable to play or to make the bad class more desirable to play. Once they buff the bad class, now theres more options, rather then less. The people who leveled the good class don't believe their time was wasted doing so like they may after a nerf.
  • borneolborneol Member Posts: 174 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    chai23 wrote: »
    Nerfing doesn't make the game better, buffing does. If one class is better than another, whats the better option, to make the good class less desirable to play or to make the bad class more desirable to play. Once they buff the bad class, now theres more options, rather then less. The people who leveled the good class don't believe their time was wasted doing so like they may after a nerf.

    It's not that simple usually. If one class out of six is overpowered then the only rational solution is to nerf that one class. Otherwise you have to buff all of the other five classes equally, which is hard, and for PvE you have to also buff the content because everyone is suddenly more powerful. It just isn't practical at all.
  • frost168frost168 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I'll wager 10x Cats that the OP is a Rogue.
  • iamdoctordeathiamdoctordeath Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    GFs are OP and need a nerf, I keep getting stunlocked by them to death.

    OP must be a GF who wants his instawin class to stay super OP forever.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • jmerithewjmerithew Member Posts: 137 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    frost168 wrote: »
    I'll wager 10x Cats that the OP is a Rogue.
    I'll raise you an overflow bag full of epics, and say the he's a CW
  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Balancing a PVE centric game for PVP is never ever a good idea, just like balancing a PVP centric game where PVE is an after thought (WAR for example) isn't.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • aronwenaronwen Member Posts: 102
    edited May 2013
    yerune wrote: »
    Instead you waste your time whining about it? How is that more productive than supplying actual footage and data?

    I'm not saying the classes are perfect and balanced, some need more tweaking than others. But please, NOT based on hearsay and biased frustration.

    And yes, the devs read. I'm just worried what they'll do with it.

    To the others, thanks for the support. Facerolling the berfbat is bad for everyone.
    For a start I am not whining, I simply stated facts about level 60 pvp and MMOs based around pve that just happen to have pvp added to it. Every MMO that I've played that has had pvp attached to it had pvp specific balances that would stop the whole killing in 3 hits, due to competition and well, simply being able to kill your opponent without effort is not exactly skill or fun unless all you care about is winning. Now there was one game that went from a combo based pvp to a messy instakill fest and guess what, now no one pvps there now and the game is dead. PvP is just simply more enjoyable when there's actual fighting, not hit 3 keys and someone is dead. As I said in my first post, it's damage in general that needs to be toned down and defense actually being noticed, not just specific classes.
  • ashenrustashenrust Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    my suggestion to any one afraid of a nurf to their class ..get in ther eand help the classes that are curretnly broken be bought up to snuff
  • wingofbenuwingofbenu Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    genryu20 wrote: »
    Maybe classes arent OP its just the fact of another exploit thats been found for cheating. And devs have been notified now.

    Maybe its that th devs cant design combat encounters worth **** and nearly half the classes are useless.
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