Flipping : How to control the AH.

maximilious
maximilious Member Posts: 54 Arc User
edited May 2013 in General Discussion (PC)
What is flipping?

Flipping is when a group of money hungry individuals want to control the economy of a certain game and use it to gain maximum profits.

How do I begin?

Well, if you have a small group of individuals that are already rich this work the best but can also work with large number of players just with small profits.

What do you do?

You have the select few that will scout prices and items OR currency in the game, they will proceed to tell all the flippers to start buying item / currency X for Y amount of price. This process will continue until the flippers have gained total control of said item or currency.

Next comes the easy part, once supply of such X item or currency is on demand prices will increase. You will have some of the flippers helping with such stability as well until a certain price is met the scouts will proceed to tell the flippers to drop all their X amount of item or current into the market, in this process everyone that has not sold any of their goods will keep them until the next flipping is done.

Want to be rich in this game the easy way? play the Auction House!
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Post edited by maximilious on
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Comments

  • lyokira
    lyokira Member Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Important note: Make sure whatever you've picked is both desirable, and hard to obtain. If it's not desirable, it's hard to sell the item anyway. If it's easy to obtain, people may opt to just get the item without using the AH, by barter trade or getting it normally.
  • maximilious
    maximilious Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    lyokira wrote: »
    Important note: Make sure whatever you've picked is both desirable, and hard to obtain. If it's not desirable, it's hard to sell the item anyway. If it's easy to obtain, people may opt to just get the item without using the AH, by barter trade or getting it normally.

    What he said, scouts have to be very selective, don't just pick any stupid item.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • pilf3r
    pilf3r Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Which is why if they don't get all the mules...lol
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Neverwinter Thieves Guild
  • maximilious
    maximilious Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Maybe now playing the AH will be somewhat more challenging.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • lyokira
    lyokira Member Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    pilf3r wrote: »
    Which is why if they don't get all the mules...lol
    This has nothing to do with mules, and can even be done by individuals. It's basically a monopoly on the market of the specific item.

    Also be warned that the developers can very easily punish this practice, simply by making the item easier to obtain.
  • zagrim#6754
    zagrim#6754 Member Posts: 144 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    lyokira wrote: »
    This has nothing to do with mules, and can even be done by individuals. It's basically a monopoly on the market of the specific item.

    Also be warned that the developers can very easily punish this practice, simply by making the item easier to obtain.

    Think you missed the point, what he was refering to was the mules of people exploiting the auction house and sent hundreds of millions of AD's onto mule accounts that did not exploit just to safeguard their exploited AD since the exploiting accounts are 100% certain to get banned.

    So if you have a few hundred millions of AD (or even billions) its way easier to start controlling the market because you have the funds to do so.
  • lyokira
    lyokira Member Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Think you missed the point, what he was refering to was the mules of people exploiting the auction house and sent hundreds of millions of AD's onto mule accounts that did not exploit just to safeguard their exploited AD since the exploiting accounts are 100% certain to get banned.

    So if you have a few hundred millions of AD (or even billions) its way easier to start controlling the market because you have the funds to do so.

    All which has nothing to do with this topic, which is why I missed the point, apparently.
  • maximilious
    maximilious Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Think you missed the point, what he was refering to was the mules of people exploiting the auction house and sent hundreds of millions of AD's onto mule accounts that did not exploit just to safeguard their exploited AD since the exploiting accounts are 100% certain to get banned.

    So if you have a few hundred millions of AD (or even billions) its way easier to start controlling the market because you have the funds to do so.

    If you had 30 founders in one guild that's 60 Million AD (not accounting AD which they might have made in the process hitting 60 selling epics and such) which is enough to control an specific epic item.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • castertroyt79
    castertroyt79 Member Posts: 58
    edited May 2013
    First, it requires a large amount of capital to control the market of a particular item
    Second, said amount of capital must be able to create an impression that the item's price is going up with the finite capital that you have.

    Forming a coalition of players to do this is easier said than done...so usually it's only done by a small tight group of wealthy players...so we shouldn't see a lot of them. Then again, it's their total capital against the collective capital of all the players in the shard.

    Then, we have the risk:
    1) The supply of the item needs to not increase throughout the period in which you are trying to "corner" the market
    2) The demand of the item needs to not decrease throughout the period in which you are trying to "corner" the market.

    Any violation of these two risk would probably result in a heavy lost to the players trying such maneuver.

    If they actually manage to pull it off, that means they have a firm grasp on the forecast supply and demand of the item, and willing to risk losing their money/AD doing so...they deserve the profit.

    It's is easier said than done, especially on a larger scale.
  • maximilious
    maximilious Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    First, it requires a large amount of capital to control the market of a particular item
    Second, said amount of capital must be able to create an impression that the item's price is going up with the finite capital that you have.

    Forming a coalition of players to do this is easier said than done...so usually it's only done by a small tight group of wealthy players...so we shouldn't see a lot of them. Then again, it's their total capital against the collective capital of all the players in the shard.

    Then, we have the risk:
    1) The supply of the item needs to not increase throughout the period in which you are trying to "corner" the market
    2) The demand of the item needs to not decrease throughout the period in which you are trying to "corner" the market.

    Any violation of these two risk would probably result in a heavy lost to the players trying such maneuver.

    If they actually manage to pull it off, that means they have a firm grasp on the forecast supply and demand of the item, and willing to risk losing their money/AD doing so...they deserve the profit.

    It's is easier said than done, especially on a larger scale.

    I know, I just wanted to shine some light that not all the people with "millions" of AD might be exploiters that used a stupid gateway bug to gain unbelievable amount of Astral Diamonds. Some people still here, with their millions of LEGIT diamonds.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • lyokira
    lyokira Member Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    There are however some items which are ripe for being targeted, because their very nature makes it hard for the developers to increase supply. Namely, Zen itself, and from there, any Zen-only items. (Zen is an even better target because of the lack of trade fees, however, it would also make you high-profile to the developers. Hence if done, should only be used as a sub-step to control Zen-only items.)

    On the separate note, you don't need to have complete control of the item. Having enough to manipulate the market is sufficient.
  • malakhglitch
    malakhglitch Member Posts: 55
    edited May 2013
    Playing the AH is much like playing the stock market. A wrong move or an unforeseen change in the market can cause you to crash, High risk with high returns.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • maximilious
    maximilious Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Playing the AH is much like playing the stock market. A wrong move or an unforeseen change in the market can cause you to crash, High risk with high returns.

    Is not for everyone that's for sure.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • castertroyt79
    castertroyt79 Member Posts: 58
    edited May 2013
    Well, personally I see this as natural...but off course some view it as unfair. I can only say that if I'm spending more time and have a better understanding of things, then I deserve to make more money/AD/gold than you.

    Funny thing is, GW2 actually tried to address this problem by having only 1AH and 1 server, so the market is quite huge and price of item are hitting the minimum fairly quickly...and then we have the same not so savvy traders complaining about the market.

    Sorry to sound smug or crude...but dumb people will always try to point fingers faulting another person rather than themselves.
  • lyokira
    lyokira Member Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Well, personally I see this as natural...but off course some view it as unfair. I can only say that if I'm spending more time and have a better understanding of things, then I deserve to make more money/AD/gold than you.

    Funny thing is, GW2 actually tried to address this problem by having only 1AH and 1 server, so the market is quite huge and price of item are hitting the minimum fairly quickly...and then we have the same not so savvy traders complaining about the market.

    Sorry to sound smug or crude...but dumb people will always try to point fingers faulting another person rather than themselves.
    Well, if the plans go smoothly, we are slated for one single shard (and hence one single AH).
  • ancientwolfgr808
    ancientwolfgr808 Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    This is all great, but this is also why smarter players invest in enough alts/accounts to alleviate the need for even opening up the AH to begin with.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Still trying to find a reference to AD in my AD&D Manuals.
  • uvirith1
    uvirith1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 124
    edited May 2013
    I once was a flipper, until I realized that all the money doesn

    /edit
    FIX THE FCKING FORUM ! I dont want to Post everything twice......
  • lyokira
    lyokira Member Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    On a separate note, a quick profit might potentially be made if someone scouts out the prices between the three different shards, and buys our the cheapest items of each shard just before merge to resell on merge, maybe.
  • castertroyt79
    castertroyt79 Member Posts: 58
    edited May 2013
    If enough players are smart and dedicated to do that...then by arbitrage theory, the prices of the cheap items will be bid up, and the prices of the expansive item would decline before the server merges. Even if that didn't happen due to various reasons, it is a 1 off thing...so no long term impact to the economy.
  • lyokira
    lyokira Member Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Not saying it would negatively effect the economy, in fact it's the opposite. Arbitrage pushes prices to equilibrium.
  • gaerolth
    gaerolth Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 289 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    First, it requires a large amount of capital to control the market of a particular item
    Second, said amount of capital must be able to create an impression that the item's price is going up with the finite capital that you have.

    Forming a coalition of players to do this is easier said than done...so usually it's only done by a small tight group of wealthy players...so we shouldn't see a lot of them. Then again, it's their total capital against the collective capital of all the players in the shard.

    Then, we have the risk:
    1) The supply of the item needs to not increase throughout the period in which you are trying to "corner" the market
    2) The demand of the item needs to not decrease throughout the period in which you are trying to "corner" the market.

    Any violation of these two risk would probably result in a heavy lost to the players trying such maneuver.

    If they actually manage to pull it off, that means they have a firm grasp on the forecast supply and demand of the item, and willing to risk losing their money/AD doing so...they deserve the profit.

    It's is easier said than done, especially on a larger scale.

    This. However, flipping isn't just profitable to people who have control of the market. There's always someone out there who wants a very quick sell or puts in an item for the wrong price (more difficult to do on this game than others.) but still happens. With patience and buying low/selling high anyone can make a profit.
  • malakhglitch
    malakhglitch Member Posts: 55
    edited May 2013
    Is not for everyone that's for sure.

    Of course, but then some people might enjoy the relatively risk-free option of playing in a virtual market as opposed to the real world market. It is a volatile world out there. :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • korttiapina
    korttiapina Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    In EQ2 the market was controlled for rare farm nodes, especially blacksmith nodes. So I'd farm my *** off for those rares and put them on the AH for just 1 copper less than the flippers were pricing them at. Sold all of them in something like 2 hours and was able to twink my toon lol.

    I've got nothing against monopoly on the market. Personally I think it's too much of a hassle but good for you if you have the attention span for the tedious AH scrolling.

    [edit] EQ2 had probably the best working economy out of the MMOs I've played. I wish it was so in here but alas it's not.. :(
  • baylen76
    baylen76 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Deleted by baylen76.
  • fasthands23
    fasthands23 Member Posts: 48
    edited May 2013
    playing AH is for losers who don't actually play video games.

    scum.
  • castertroyt79
    castertroyt79 Member Posts: 58
    edited May 2013
    well...everyone needs some justification for their deficiency...as long as it's not they themselves that causes it.
  • skalt112
    skalt112 Member Posts: 1,089 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The problem with this is, if another group sees what you are trying to do, they can steal your profits from you and you take a huge loss. The major flaw here is that your group isn't the only one watching trends and capitolizing on them. You can't know what the total supply of an item is. Someone could be sitting on enough supply of an item you are trying to corner to totally wreck your plans.
  • marzattakz
    marzattakz Member Posts: 48
    edited May 2013
    Well, personally I see this as natural...but off course some view it as unfair. I can only say that if I'm spending more time and have a better understanding of things, then I deserve to make more money/AD/gold than you.

    Funny thing is, GW2 actually tried to address this problem by having only 1AH and 1 server, so the market is quite huge and price of item are hitting the minimum fairly quickly...and then we have the same not so savvy traders complaining about the market.

    Sorry to sound smug or crude...but dumb people will always try to point fingers faulting another person rather than themselves.

    And the GW2 market has never, ever been manipulated, especially in winter? Any game with an AH or player driven economy is going to be subject to manipulation. The difference is that in context of Neverwinter your actual real life wallet makes it so much easier to do.
  • maximilious
    maximilious Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    marzattakz wrote: »
    And the GW2 market has never, ever been manipulated, especially in winter? Any game with an AH or player driven economy is going to be subject to manipulation. The difference is that in context of Neverwinter your actual real life wallet makes it so much easier to do.

    Founders pack helped a lot.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • castertroyt79
    castertroyt79 Member Posts: 58
    edited May 2013
    marzattakz wrote: »
    And the GW2 market has never, ever been manipulated, especially in winter? Any game with an AH or player driven economy is going to be subject to manipulation. The difference is that in context of Neverwinter your actual real life wallet makes it so much easier to do.

    I never said it can't be manipulated. The challenge of developers designing the economy is such that the economy cannot be monopolized by a rich few for any significant length of time. One way to do it is by having a single market which pit the speculators against every players. That diminishes the capital advantage rich speculators, and puts greater risk at them for trying to manipulate the market. The liquidity provided by the mass of players significantly reduces the window where they are able to generate abnormal gains.

    In neverwinter, you can convert real money into AD and start playing the market. For a short time where you're the richie rich of Neverwinter, you will have control of the market. Once you start making purchases, this wealth is going to flow into the economy, increasing the amount of AD in the system, which leads to an inflation to the price of things. In time, even a tier 1 iron ore can sell for a higher value that it does now as the wealth of other player increases (reference monetary theory). So the ability to control is not sustainable...unless the player has unlimited real money to keep pumping into the system, and the cost is going to increase exponentially.