Voice your displeasure all you like. It will never change the fact of what stage this software is.
Oh I have...a quick glance at my posting history will make that evident quickly enough.
But you do have a point...it doesnt matter what I think the game is...it matters what their customers think the game is and if they are being misled. I've said it before, and I'll say it here....PWE is the same kind of business that a Payday loan, Rent to Own, Gold by the Foot businesses. They are deceitful, hiding behind semantics and double speak to lure in the uneducated or naive to take advantage of them. Hopefully people will see through this, and it appears that alot are, and some are even getting their eyes opened and the rose colored glasses taken off. (contray to kender legend, rose colored glasses do not reveal the truth)
I find that the only people who /like/ semantics tends to contrarian trolls, lawyers(redundant), and liars...I keep saying the same thing dont I, oh..and public relations/marketing people.
EDIT: and since semantics is important.....Perfect World Owns Cryptic....http://www.perfectworld.com/
According to Pefect World.....it's a live product. But that's just semantics I'm sure.
No.. but i bet a great ammount of em are.. Better safe than sry to me...
Please tell me why an exploiter would just leave necessarily if they can still possibly milk more exploits? Your comment is ridiculous. Just because someone leaves doesn't make them a exploiter.
Oh I have...a quick glance at my posting history will make that evident quickly enough.
But you do have a point...it doesnt matter what I think the game is...it matters what their customers think the game is and if they are being misled. I've said it before, and I'll say it here....PWE is the same kind of business that a Payday loan, Rent to Own, Gold by the Foot businesses. They are deceitful, hiding behind semantics and double speak to lure in the uneducated or naive to take advantage of them. Hopefully people will see through this, and it appears that alot are, and some are even getting their eyes opened and the rose colored glasses taken off. (contray to kender legend, rose colored glasses do not reveal the truth)
I find that the only people who /like/ semantics tends to contrarian trolls, lawyers(redundant), and liars...I keep saying the same thing dont I, oh..and public relations/marketing people.
EDIT: and since semantics is important.....Perfect World Owns Cryptic....http://www.perfectworld.com/
According to Pefect World.....it's a live product. But that's just semantics I'm sure.
This debate has been fun. But I have better things to do at the moment then beat a dead horse. I will leave you with one last and final semantic. Live product does not and never will mean an official launch. It means a live product and it just so happens that this live product is in beta form.
This debate has been fun. But I have better things to do at the moment then beat a dead horse. I will leave you with one last and final semantic. Live product does not and never will mean an official launch. It means a live product and it just so happens that this live product is in beta form.
Thanks for the fun. Have yourself a great day.
*chuckles*....so they have a icon for open beta and live....live = launched. PWE finally decided to let you off for day...welcome back tomorrow for more baghdad bobbing....
*chuckles*....so they have a icon for open beta and live....live = launched. PWE finally decided to let you off for day...welcome back tomorrow for more baghdad bobbing....
You really are that paranoid. I doubt they would let me call you a knucklehead.
But so far you've been way off on my profession which doesn't surprise seeing how far off target you have been on definitions.
just off top of my head, i was in beta for all them recently, i know they not the only ones that have all included paid for content during final beta stage, and have not had wipes on release date, i pretty sure they have been many others lately.
I can't comment on the other 2 but I was in open Beta for Planetside 2 and they most certainly DID wipe before release on that !! They wiped on November the 20th before the official launch.
Either way if you're right on the other 2 it's a pretty recent thing ? For many years they have done a complete wipe between Beta and release. I'd hardly think this game has proven to be a good reason not to ?
To me it's pretty bloody obvious a game should be fully tested through a stage...call it beta or whatever THEN wiped and started again. THEN start to take money. That's just common sense.
Would you like to buy a car then find out they are testing it for road safety ?
This game is a beta only in terms of the quality level. Other than that it is released.
I could simply define (for myself anyhow) a beta by whether or not they would even consider a wipe before "release" and they are definitely not going to wipe before the "release".
I noticed that mandatory data wipe was mentioned in none of those definitions.
"Over the course of my many years I have learned one thing: I don't know anything, I only think I do. And I'm not even sure about that." -- Rasgard the Wise
I noticed that mandatory data wipe was mentioned in none of those definitions.
No-one has anywhere stated it's the definition of Beta that there be a mandatory wipe. Just it has been until relatively recently the usual practice. Of course the fact that is much of this bad feeling would have been avoided had it happened how it used to.
Ie Beta test - Wipe - official launch (take money)
But of course you're too busy nit picking about definitions to have given that any real thought aren't you......
This issue it seems comes down to ethics. Some companies like to twist words or use them. It still makes them an unethical company. All the arguing over what the word beta means is actually mute because the said company can find any loopholes! You can debate what a word technically means forever to put it simply as well because of those loopholes.
I don't believe I'm nitpicking. It has been said repeatedly by many users on this forum that the game is not a beta specifically because they will not wipe the character data. A perusal of this thread, and others like it, will bear that out. I was merely trying to point out the fallacy of that argument.
"Over the course of my many years I have learned one thing: I don't know anything, I only think I do. And I'm not even sure about that." -- Rasgard the Wise
So the only difference between a launch and a beta test is the label? Thanks. We knew this already...
No, this is incorrect.
One thing that changes after the beta ends is the frequency with which updates to the game are released. During the beta period, it's not uncommon to receive patches on an almost daily basis as defects are identified and addressed.
Once the product achieves "Release" status, it goes into a far more formal release cycle, in which the development cycles are planned, scheduled, and delivered according to a carefully maintained schedule that frequently coincides with holidays, marketing events, and so on. In a typical scenario, you will see something like one update per quarter (if that).
So there is a difference, and it's not insignificant.
"Over the course of my many years I have learned one thing: I don't know anything, I only think I do. And I'm not even sure about that." -- Rasgard the Wise
My view of it is that if it were truly a "beta test" (as in opening the servers up for mass testing), they should have enabled tools for us to actually TEST things. For instance, if there are broken feats/abilities/powers/etc, they should be reported, but they should also have the ability to quickly and easily respec to test something else out -- they should NOT be trying to charge money for "beta testers" to test their software for them. Classes whose entire mechanics are broken/missing (GF taunt/aggro management) should be quickly addressed -- hell, those things should have been noticed in CLOSED testing. They shouldn't have propagated this far.
The moment a company starts treating the game as though it were live (everything is permanent, charging money on the cash shop, etc), the game IS live. They can call it 'open beta' all they want, but it doesn't change the fact that they're pushing an unfinished game out onto the mass market, calling it a beta, and getting people to pay them money for the cash shop.
Consider it this way: if the game were a subscription game, and they wanted you to pay your $15 for the first month already despite it being "open beta", would you still call it a beta?
HEY FORKTARDS STOP WHINGING THIS IS OPEN BETA FFS!!!
YOU BUNCH OF WHINGING WHINING BABIES!!!
YOU SHOULD FEEL PRIVILEDGED TO BE TESTING THIS AWESUM GAME!!!
Its forking beta so do your forking *jobs* and report the farking bugs you stupid pigs!!!!
If you have suggestions that will make the game better make suggestions but all this pitiful pathetic whinging hurts my farking eyeballs you useless farking sods!!!
So some of you pay money to farking play test this awesome game so stfu and who actually cares?
WE all know that your not good enough to even lick the devs and companies left ball sacs !!!!
Hey devs thank you soooooo much for this awesome game anytime you need a BJ or anything just let me know!!!!
whether or not real money transactions should been included in an open beta release, is debatable, but it concurs with the ethic of a beta release, in that these systems NEED to be tested for bugs. You lot should be grateful that it has occurred in Beta and NOT the end product.
You signed up for a beta product, you are playing the beta product, it is YOUR responsibility to test and report bugs. THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF A BETA. If you find a bug, whether its exploitative or not, Press H and click report a bug - dont tell the whole shard. The more people that actually understand the objective of a beta release the better because there will be less bugs/exploits in the final release
To be honest, think PW are in a bit of "damned if they do, damned if they dont' position, same as Blizzard were with the D3 AH exploit. Blizzard did not roll back and faced huge amounts of criticism and QQ from the community, but they had the resources to be able to handle the situation without a rollback - resources I doubt PW has.
PW have handled this well - as many devs will tell you, a system rollback is the LAST thing they want to do - but in this case it was necessary.
you are NOT playing a released game, you are playing beta.
stop the QQ and do your JOB, TEST THE GAME...FEEDBACK ANY ISSUES OR SUGGESTIONS YOU MAY HAVE!
Open betas serve the dual purpose of demonstrating a product to potential consumers, and testing among an extremely wide user base likely to bring to light obscure errors that a much smaller testing team might not find.
whether or not real money transactions should been included in an open beta release, is NOT debatable by your own definition. Note the word POTENTIAL in the definition youre posting. POTENTIAL consumers have not spent money yet.
THe minute money changed hands, by your own definition, the word beta became irrelevant.
Oh, and...the obligatory: Someone posted it on wikipedia, which is on the internet, so it must be true right?
But really in the end none of this matters, it's just a word. If there are no wipes then all the consequences that problems cause will carry over to the foreseeable future. It doesn't matter if it is titled beta or release, it won't change any of the facts, it doesn't give any excuse.
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zeddakisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
whether or not real money transactions should been included in an open beta release, is debatable, but it concurs with the ethic of a beta release, in that these systems NEED to be tested for bugs. You lot should be grateful that it has occurred in Beta and NOT the end product.
You signed up for a beta product, you are playing the beta product, it is YOUR responsibility to test and report bugs. THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF A BETA. If you find a bug, whether its exploitative or not, Press H and click report a bug - dont tell the whole shard. The more people that actually understand the objective of a beta release the better because there will be less bugs/exploits in the final release
To be honest, think PW are in a bit of "damned if they do, damned if they dont' position, same as Blizzard were with the D3 AH exploit. Blizzard did not roll back and faced huge amounts of criticism and QQ from the community, but they had the resources to be able to handle the situation without a rollback - resources I doubt PW has.
PW have handled this well - as many devs will tell you, a system rollback is the LAST thing they want to do - but in this case it was necessary.
you are NOT playing a released game, you are playing beta.
stop the QQ and do your JOB, TEST THE GAME...FEEDBACK ANY ISSUES OR SUGGESTIONS YOU MAY HAVE!
Well...If it came from the holy wiki it must be true!
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zeddakisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I have a dog, but I have labeled him as a cat. Everyone keeps telling me that it is a dog and not a cat, but I keep answering that it is my pet, so it is whatever I label it.
Wikipedia states a cat is a "small, usually furry, domesticated". That sounds like my pet to me. Who are these people to argue with me that my cat is a dog. I own the cat and it is whatever I call it.
I have a dog, but I have labeled him as a cat. Everyone keeps telling me that it is a dog and not a cat, but I keep answering that it is my pet, so it is whatever I label it.
Wikipedia states a cat is a "small, usually furry, domesticated". That sounds like my pet to me. Who are these people to argue with me that my cat is a dog. I own the cat and it is whatever I call it.
Exactly this. That's why the debate over a word can be argued forever.
I have a dog, but I have labeled him as a cat. Everyone keeps telling me that it is a dog and not a cat, but I keep answering that it is my pet, so it is whatever I label it.
Wikipedia states a cat is a "small, usually furry, domesticated". That sounds like my pet to me. Who are these people to argue with me that my cat is a dog. I own the cat and it is whatever I call it.
Well I am a priest/rabbi/Ulama of the holy wiki and what you are saying is Blasphemy!!!!!
Prepare yourself for a Divine *** whooping. Thou shall not call a cat a dog!!!
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zeddakisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well I am a priest/rabbi/Ulama of the holy wiki and what you are saying is Blasphemy!!!!!
Prepare yourself for a Divine *** whooping. Thou shall not call a cat a dog!!!
I am not scared! I'm a Wiki agnostic. While I believe it is a great source of knowledge, I am not certain that we can be certain of it's possible divine powers.
I am not scared! I'm a Wiki agnostic. While I believe it is a great source of knowledge, I am not certain that we can be certain of it's possible divine powers.
You will be scared when I rouse up the mob to all come and stone you................... prepare to pay for your evil misguided beliefs.
You will be scared when I rouse up the mob to all come and stone you................... prepare to pay for your evil misguided beliefs.
Faamalosiblue: Zeddakis, son of Deuteronomy of Gath...
Zeddakis: Do I say yes?
Guard: Yes.
Zeddakis: Yes!
Faamalosiblue: ...you have been found guilty by the elders of the forum of uttering the name of our Lord, and so as a blasphemer...
Forum-Goers: Ooh...
Faamalosiblue: ...you are to be stoned to death!
Forum-Goers: Aah!
Zeddakis: Look, I'd had a lovely argument, and all I said in my post was: "Just because it was on Wikipedia doesn't make it true!".
Forum-Goers: Oooh!
Faamalosiblue: Blasphemy! He said it again!
Forum-Goers: Yeah! Yes! Yes!
Faamalosiblue: Did you hear him?!
Forum-Goers: Yeah! Yes! Yes!
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zeddakisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Faamalosiblue: Zeddakis, son of Deuteronomy of Gath...
Zeddakis: Do I say yes?
Guard: Yes.
Zeddakis: Yes!
Faamalosiblue: ...you have been found guilty by the elders of the forum of uttering the name of our Lord, and so as a blasphemer...
Forum-Goers: Ooh...
Faamalosiblue: ...you are to be stoned to death!
Forum-Goers: Aah!
Zeddakis: Look, I'd had a lovely argument, and all I said in my post was: "Just because it was on Wikipedia doesn't make it true!".
Forum-Goers: Oooh!
Faamalosiblue: Blasphemy! He said it again!
Forum-Goers: Yeah! Yes! Yes!
Faamalosiblue: Did you hear him?!
Forum-Goers: Yeah! Yes! Yes!
Ok...now I am getting a little scared. Blessed mother of Wiki please protect me and forgive me of my transgressions. Am I saved now?
Ok...now I am getting a little scared. Blessed mother of Wiki please protect me and forgive me of my transgressions. Am I saved now?
The god of wiki is a merciful god........ thou shall have a public flogging...... a 40 day enforced fast...... and pay a fine to the temple of 30 pieces of silver and 30 holy cats.
Comments
Oh I have...a quick glance at my posting history will make that evident quickly enough.
But you do have a point...it doesnt matter what I think the game is...it matters what their customers think the game is and if they are being misled. I've said it before, and I'll say it here....PWE is the same kind of business that a Payday loan, Rent to Own, Gold by the Foot businesses. They are deceitful, hiding behind semantics and double speak to lure in the uneducated or naive to take advantage of them. Hopefully people will see through this, and it appears that alot are, and some are even getting their eyes opened and the rose colored glasses taken off. (contray to kender legend, rose colored glasses do not reveal the truth)
I find that the only people who /like/ semantics tends to contrarian trolls, lawyers(redundant), and liars...I keep saying the same thing dont I, oh..and public relations/marketing people.
EDIT: and since semantics is important.....Perfect World Owns Cryptic....http://www.perfectworld.com/
According to Pefect World.....it's a live product. But that's just semantics I'm sure.
This debate has been fun. But I have better things to do at the moment then beat a dead horse. I will leave you with one last and final semantic. Live product does not and never will mean an official launch. It means a live product and it just so happens that this live product is in beta form.
Thanks for the fun. Have yourself a great day.
*chuckles*....so they have a icon for open beta and live....live = launched. PWE finally decided to let you off for day...welcome back tomorrow for more baghdad bobbing....
You really are that paranoid. I doubt they would let me call you a knucklehead.
But so far you've been way off on my profession which doesn't surprise seeing how far off target you have been on definitions.
I can't comment on the other 2 but I was in open Beta for Planetside 2 and they most certainly DID wipe before release on that !! They wiped on November the 20th before the official launch.
Either way if you're right on the other 2 it's a pretty recent thing ? For many years they have done a complete wipe between Beta and release. I'd hardly think this game has proven to be a good reason not to ?
To me it's pretty bloody obvious a game should be fully tested through a stage...call it beta or whatever THEN wiped and started again. THEN start to take money. That's just common sense.
Would you like to buy a car then find out they are testing it for road safety ?
I could simply define (for myself anyhow) a beta by whether or not they would even consider a wipe before "release" and they are definitely not going to wipe before the "release".
I noticed that mandatory data wipe was mentioned in none of those definitions.
No-one has anywhere stated it's the definition of Beta that there be a mandatory wipe. Just it has been until relatively recently the usual practice. Of course the fact that is much of this bad feeling would have been avoided had it happened how it used to.
Ie Beta test - Wipe - official launch (take money)
But of course you're too busy nit picking about definitions to have given that any real thought aren't you......
Beta is the new release title
Alpha is the new Beta
It's like 40 years old is the new 30 and 60 years old is the new 50. Times, they are a changing.
No, this is incorrect.
One thing that changes after the beta ends is the frequency with which updates to the game are released. During the beta period, it's not uncommon to receive patches on an almost daily basis as defects are identified and addressed.
Once the product achieves "Release" status, it goes into a far more formal release cycle, in which the development cycles are planned, scheduled, and delivered according to a carefully maintained schedule that frequently coincides with holidays, marketing events, and so on. In a typical scenario, you will see something like one update per quarter (if that).
So there is a difference, and it's not insignificant.
The moment a company starts treating the game as though it were live (everything is permanent, charging money on the cash shop, etc), the game IS live. They can call it 'open beta' all they want, but it doesn't change the fact that they're pushing an unfinished game out onto the mass market, calling it a beta, and getting people to pay them money for the cash shop.
Consider it this way: if the game were a subscription game, and they wanted you to pay your $15 for the first month already despite it being "open beta", would you still call it a beta?
YOU BUNCH OF WHINGING WHINING BABIES!!!
YOU SHOULD FEEL PRIVILEDGED TO BE TESTING THIS AWESUM GAME!!!
Its forking beta so do your forking *jobs* and report the farking bugs you stupid pigs!!!!
If you have suggestions that will make the game better make suggestions but all this pitiful pathetic whinging hurts my farking eyeballs you useless farking sods!!!
So some of you pay money to farking play test this awesome game so stfu and who actually cares?
WE all know that your not good enough to even lick the devs and companies left ball sacs !!!!
Hey devs thank you soooooo much for this awesome game anytime you need a BJ or anything just let me know!!!!
What is that letter L next to Neverwinter? Use the brain you so clearly misuse and glance at the legend at the top.
NW is live. Stop making these threads and stop making excuses for it.
Nope. Because you see...
whether or not real money transactions should been included in an open beta release, is NOT debatable by your own definition. Note the word POTENTIAL in the definition youre posting. POTENTIAL consumers have not spent money yet.
THe minute money changed hands, by your own definition, the word beta became irrelevant.
Oh, and...the obligatory: Someone posted it on wikipedia, which is on the internet, so it must be true right?
Well...If it came from the holy wiki it must be true!
Wikipedia states a cat is a "small, usually furry, domesticated". That sounds like my pet to me. Who are these people to argue with me that my cat is a dog. I own the cat and it is whatever I call it.
Well I am a priest/rabbi/Ulama of the holy wiki and what you are saying is Blasphemy!!!!!
Prepare yourself for a Divine *** whooping. Thou shall not call a cat a dog!!!
I am not scared! I'm a Wiki agnostic. While I believe it is a great source of knowledge, I am not certain that we can be certain of it's possible divine powers.
You will be scared when I rouse up the mob to all come and stone you................... prepare to pay for your evil misguided beliefs.
Faamalosiblue: Zeddakis, son of Deuteronomy of Gath...
Zeddakis: Do I say yes?
Guard: Yes.
Zeddakis: Yes!
Faamalosiblue: ...you have been found guilty by the elders of the forum of uttering the name of our Lord, and so as a blasphemer...
Forum-Goers: Ooh...
Faamalosiblue: ...you are to be stoned to death!
Forum-Goers: Aah!
Zeddakis: Look, I'd had a lovely argument, and all I said in my post was: "Just because it was on Wikipedia doesn't make it true!".
Forum-Goers: Oooh!
Faamalosiblue: Blasphemy! He said it again!
Forum-Goers: Yeah! Yes! Yes!
Faamalosiblue: Did you hear him?!
Forum-Goers: Yeah! Yes! Yes!
Ok...now I am getting a little scared. Blessed mother of Wiki please protect me and forgive me of my transgressions. Am I saved now?
The god of wiki is a merciful god........ thou shall have a public flogging...... a 40 day enforced fast...... and pay a fine to the temple of 30 pieces of silver and 30 holy cats.