Why are you so set on having characters wiped? CALM DOWN. Exploiters are bad, they should be banned, sure. Why take the situation WAY out of hand and wipe all characters? It's like saying "Oh no, someone stole bread from my neighbors house, lets go kill everyone in the entire world."
Because this game is in beta still, its ok to do a wipe in beta, and it is needed and justified considering the magnitude of the exploiting going on. Banning exploiters won't help, they will use mule accounts to keep their ill gotten gains. Checking logs for these trades to mule accounts won't help that much, how are the devs going to have enough people that can look over every single trade done since open beta and decide with 100% certanty that this was a trade to a mule account and not legit trades? What about people that had no idea they were doing business with an exploiter but trade logs might implicate them?
These exploiters are devious, they have all kinds of ways to launder their loot. Only way to reverse the damage is wipe.
Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
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nexxisssMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited May 2013
If they wiped everything but you keep your level and get back and AD that were purchased that would be fine. Starting my characters again would not be fine and I would probably stop playing.
Numbers are just as I thought, even with a wipe, they will still retain around 60% of customers who will potentially be prepared to reroll and spend RL money on the cash shop.
Sample size of almost 300 is relative enough.
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silknightMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 199
edited May 2013
Sample size of 300 people is nothing if not skewed, it's a tiny portion of the actual population playing the game. It's like 1% of nothing.
Numbers are just as I thought, even with a wipe, they will still retain around 60% of customers who will potentially be prepared to reroll and spend RL money on the cash shop.
Sample size of almost 300 is relative enough.
It's funny I look at the numbers and see a 50% reduction in people willing to pay. Sample size is small but still you are counting people that would still play but never ever pay again as a pro for your proposal when it's not. Even if you look at your interpretation of 60% being ok with it that's still a 40% reduction in paying customers. How is that remotely a good thing for the game or the company?
You must not realize the effect it has on the economy. It's more like saying, "Hey, that guy figured out how to make pure gold from water. Wow, all that time I was mining for it, now the market is inflated with it and it makes my gold pretty worthless since it's so common."
"Hey, that guy figured out how to make pure gold from water. Wow, all that time I was mining for it, now the market is inflated with it and it makes my gold pretty worthless since it's so common. Lets kill everyone in the world!"
ROFL if you even think a significant amount of the playerbase even reads the forums.....
Let alone this one thread.....
Let alone vote on it (which even I haven't).....
It's funny I look at the numbers and see a 50% reduction in people willing to pay. Sample size is small but still you are counting people that would still play but never ever pay again as a pro for your proposal when it's not. Even if you look at your interpretation of 60% being ok with it that's still a 40% reduction in paying customers. How is that remotely a good thing for the game or the company?
The people who play for free but still play are still potential revenue earners, nothing different to how free to play players play right now.
F2P games are like a fishing game, or carrot game, dangle the carrot in thier face, bait the hook and see if they take it.
Now if they leave out right, well, thats another story.
Also, the 8% of those who are on the fence can be coaxed around to stay also.
Just depends on what they do and how they handle it for those people that will determine wether they stay or leave.
ROFL if you even think a significant amount of the playerbase even reads the forums.....
Let alone this one thread.....
Let alone vote on it (which even I haven't).....
Even if you take it as only losing 30% that's a huge loss, divisions of companies have been shut down for that kind of revenue decrease.
But you can't determine wether or not they are paying customers OR are F2P customers.
If they have paid and quit out right, they still made money from them, 50 bux seems to be what most people have generically spent, thats the equivalent of a 3 month subscription, but again, that 30% of players who would leave cannot be 100% proven that they have spent something, so we can't pretend to put any kinds of figures on it.
What we do know is pretty simple, of that 30% some are free to play players and some may very well be people who have already paid something.
Point being, that it is not truely a direct 30% loss, it is simply 30% of lost *potential* ongoing revenue which is still a gamble that they might or might not spend anything at all.
I'd be willing to bet that most of the people in that 30% bracket atm, haven't paid anything at all.
But you can't determine wether or not they are paying customers OR are F2P customers.
If they have paid and quit out right, they still made money from them, 50 bux seems to be what most people have generically spent, thats the equivalent of a 3 month subscription, but again, that 30% of players who would leave cannot be 100% proven that they have spent something, so we can't pretend to put any kinds of figures on it.
What we do know is pretty simple, of that 30% some are free to play players and some may very well be people who have already paid something.
Point being, that it is not truely a direct 30% loss, it is simply 30% of lost *potential* ongoing revenue which is still a gamble that they might or might not spend anything at all.
I'd be willing to bet that most of the people in that 30% bracket atm, haven't paid anything at all.
I'd put a wager that the people that stay are more likely to be f2p than people that leave.
For one thing, I don't play the game. I'm getting more enjoyment reading the forums. It's like an improv filled with well-timed tragedy, irony, and betrayal. Cryptic/PWE is truly an underdog story where you can't really decide whether to root for them or not, but their actions (or lack of) are more entertainment than any celebrity scandals.
And I posted to try and help keep things in perspective. It was a nice idea for a poll, one that might even be reviewed later. But there are other variables, such as people that don't go to the forums that could make up a HUGE percentage that's missing. You could also be right that the numbers MIGHT not change much. There's no way to know for sure....
For one thing, I don't play the game. I'm getting more enjoyment reading the forums. It's like an improv filled with well-timed tragedy, irony, and betrayal. Cryptic/PWE is truly an underdog story where you can't really decide whether to root for them or not, but their actions (or lack of) are more entertainment than any celebrity scandals.
And I posted to try and help keep things in perspective. It was a nice idea for a poll, one that might even be reviewed later. But there are other variables, such as people that don't go to the forums that could make up a HUGE percentage that's missing. You could also be right that the numbers MIGHT not change much. There's no way to know for sure....
Of course, but a sample size of 300 when the, lets say for sake of argument, the total people on these forums would be maybe around 30'000, is more then enough to get an indicative result.
Indicative results are all thats needed when it comes to poll,s you don't need 30'000 votes from 30'000 people to determine wether or not you following choices will be wise or not.
I'd put a wager that the people that stay are more likely to be f2p than people that leave.
We addressed that in the poll, Stay but play for free and Stay but keep on paying RL money for zen. 42% will stay and pay RL money for zen and 18% will stay and play for free which have the potential to pay for zen and almost 10% are still deciding which still have the potential to be coaxed around depending on the actions of PW.
30% would leave out right. This value however can be broken up as we said.
I would continue playing and supporting the game with shop purchases if there were a roll back.
I really do enjoy the game. I have my complaints but they're very limited in nature and quite a few would be resolved with a full fix of the exploits that have been found so far as well as additional testing to find more.
I have not spent any money in the game so far but would if the game proved that it could withstand the test of time and be something that I play for longer than a month.
We addressed that in the poll, Stay but play for free and Stay but keep on paying RL money for zen. 42% will stay and pay RL money for zen and 18% will stay and play for free which have the potential to pay for zen and almost 10% are still deciding which still have the potential to be coaxed around depending on the actions of PW.
30% would leave out right. This value however can be broken up as we said.
That portion of it can be read different ways. The way I read it when reading
1. I agree with the wipe and would keep playing
2. I'd keep playing but it would anger me to never again paying
3. I'd be angered and leave the game
4. Not sure / Undecided
You're lumping 1 as I've payed and would continue to, and 2 as I haven't payed and still won't but I'll keep playing creating an artificial sense of agreement with you.
That portion of it can be read different ways. The way I read it when reading
1. I agree with the wipe and would keep playing
2. I'd keep playing but it would anger me to never again paying
3. I'd be angered and leave the game
4. Not sure / Undecided
You're lumping 1 as I've payed and would continue to, and 2 as I haven't payed and still won't but I'll keep playing creating an artificial sense of agreement with you.
No, you are simply taking it out of context.
The results are simple:
Yes, I will stay and spend RL money on Zen = 42%. Self explanatory.
Yes, but only for free = 18%. This value can include current free to play players AND people who have already spent money on the game. You can't determine peoples emotional reasoning behind why they would choose this one, people might simply be waiting to see if it will become worth spending money on, people may just be playing for free while waiting for the next game, what ever, it can be hardly treated as an angered reason.
Not sure, have to sleep on it = 9%. This value can include all the above.
No, I wouldn't = 30%. This value can include all the above. This is the only one that could include an angered emtional reasoning.
So you can read in to it and skew those emotions somehow in to it all you like, it is all self explanatory.
Yes, I will stay and spend RL money on Zen = 42%. Self explanatory.
Yes, but only for free = 18%. This value can include current free to play players AND people who have already spent money on the game. You can't determine peoples emotional reasoning behind why they would choose this one, people might simply be waiting to see if it will become worth spending money on, people may just be playing for free while waiting for the next game, what ever, it can be hardly treated as an angered reason.
Not sure, have to sleep on it = 9%. This value can include all the above.
No, I wouldn't = 30%. This value can include all the above. This is the only one that could include an angered emtional reasoning.
So you can read in to it and skew those emotions somehow in to it all you like, it is all self explanatory.
Every single human being on the planet has a bias when reading something like this though and your claim that it's self explanatory is well false as there are different ways different bias's will read it. You've explained yours, I've explained mine, I'm sure there are several that voted that would agree with either of us and several that will have come up with even some otherway of reading it. Unless you spell out exactly 100% what you mean you can't make the claims you have without someone reading the results a different way.
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smkymtndudeMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
You guys are all getting mad because why? Somebody else got to steal a bunch of stuff and you didn't? You're just jealous, you're not missing out on anything. This isn't a government, it won't ruin the economy of the game. PWE can do anything they want, they can take the money, items, AD, etc. back, they can ban offenders, they can even buy stuff off the auction with imaginary money and destroy it if that's what it takes they have complete control. I don't need my toon wiped, I haven't done anything wrong. I've used no exploits and I'm not rushing through the experience. I'm having fun, and you should too, it is a video game after all...
Every single human being on the planet has a bias when reading something like this though and your claim that it's self explanatory is well false as there are different ways different bias's will read it. You've explained yours, I've explained mine, I'm sure there are several that voted that would agree with either of us and several that will have come up with even some otherway of reading it. Unless you spell out exactly 100% what you mean you can't make the claims you have without someone reading the results a different way.
This isn't physc class 101.
If you say yes and I am still willing to pay Zen, you are pretty much saying you enjoy the game.
The only selection that can even remotely be treated as a angered emotional response is No, I wouldn't.
You guys are all getting mad because why? Somebody else got to steal a bunch of stuff and you didn't? You're just jealous, you're not missing out on anything. This isn't a government, it won't ruin the economy of the game. PWE can do anything they want, they can take the money, items, AD, etc. back, they can ban offenders, they can even buy stuff off the auction with imaginary money and destroy it if that's what it takes they have complete control. I don't need my toon wiped, I haven't done anything wrong. I've used no exploits and I'm not rushing through the experience. I'm having fun, and you should too, it is a video game after all...
For the past week I have been advocating this entire issue, I could of been ingame exploiting it.
Fix the exploits, roll everyone back to their original position and I would continue to play. And BTW, Ive got way more than 24-48 hours of play. Rough estimate is closer to 150+ hours. I have a lot invested in this game in time, money and passion. So, yes I would continue to play after a reset. In fact if they don't reset and most certainly if they don't fix the afk pvp'ers soon I won't be playing at all. I have spent close to $1,000 usd on this game. They will feel it when I leave.
The fact is, the more players have invested in time and money, the less likely they are to pull out just over a wipe. But when I can't play my character of choice because some afk-pvp farmer has it locked up, when I get kicked out of pvp teams because I am a legitimate pvper then I can assure you--I will cease to play and pay!
I reported my issues to a GM... I have been ignored. I wont pay to be ignored for very long.
I am pissed off because I enjoy playing a game. AFK pvp locks up a legitimate character and it can't be played for awhile. (Presumably until the afk pvp'er decides to log in and check his loot, find he is still in party and releases that party.) Another experience is when a legitimate character logs into a pvp match and really starts working hard to win the game. The afk pvper tells him to stop and stay in the spawn point. When the legitimate player refuses to do that he is kicked from the party. He doesn't get to finish the match.
In otherwords.... these afk pvpers are interfering with my game play... and you bet Im pissed.
Id certainly want xp boosts or similar for the time ive spent
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rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
edited May 2013
Not bothering to vote as this is a useless poll. No wipes means no wipes. Now if they want to ban the most egregious exploiters they have my vote to do that.
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starkaosMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
strip all those exploiters its the right thing to do
We are looking into various solutions internally. We have a team of designers looking at game logs and determining what specifically can be done to ensure that the game remains fair and balanced. Thank you for voicing your concerns! Keeping the game fair is a high priority for us.
Fixed an issue where the Guardian Fighter was able to do significantly more damage than was intended.
PvP
Players will now be removed from PvP for being AFK.
Clarification: The change to Guardian Fighters is not a balance change and does not affect damage output for that class under normal circumstances. This fixes a very rare circumstance where damage would be calculated incorrectly to a significant degree. Most players have never experienced this, however, those who have know that it was significant enough to warrant a fix ASAP. Thanks to all the players who requested clarification on this!
It is a very good start and this patch comes out today. AFK PvP farming is removed, but there are certain ways around it like putting an encounter ability on auto by messing with the keyboard. Also Guardian Fighter's no longer one-shotting bosses makes this exploit meaningless. All that is needed is how they will deal with the exploiters. A person that stumbled into this exploit should be punished less than someone that farmed bosses. I would hate to get my account banned just because I did not know the armor I was using was giving a too high damage bonus.
Comments
Because this game is in beta still, its ok to do a wipe in beta, and it is needed and justified considering the magnitude of the exploiting going on. Banning exploiters won't help, they will use mule accounts to keep their ill gotten gains. Checking logs for these trades to mule accounts won't help that much, how are the devs going to have enough people that can look over every single trade done since open beta and decide with 100% certanty that this was a trade to a mule account and not legit trades? What about people that had no idea they were doing business with an exploiter but trade logs might implicate them?
These exploiters are devious, they have all kinds of ways to launder their loot. Only way to reverse the damage is wipe.
Bravo Cryptic/PW
Sample size of almost 300 is relative enough.
Let alone this one thread.....
Let alone vote on it (which even I haven't).....
The people who play for free but still play are still potential revenue earners, nothing different to how free to play players play right now.
F2P games are like a fishing game, or carrot game, dangle the carrot in thier face, bait the hook and see if they take it.
Now if they leave out right, well, thats another story.
Also, the 8% of those who are on the fence can be coaxed around to stay also.
Just depends on what they do and how they handle it for those people that will determine wether they stay or leave.
You could make that sample size 3000 or 30000, I'd be willing to bet that it will stay somewhat the same +/- maybe a few % from each statistic.
Actually, 300 IS a large enough sample. The problem is that the sample is not representative of the population due to forum bias.
http://www.measuringusability.com/survey-sample-size.php
This is an open beta. Start treating it like one.
So why post then? Pretty simple to just vote.
But you can't determine wether or not they are paying customers OR are F2P customers.
If they have paid and quit out right, they still made money from them, 50 bux seems to be what most people have generically spent, thats the equivalent of a 3 month subscription, but again, that 30% of players who would leave cannot be 100% proven that they have spent something, so we can't pretend to put any kinds of figures on it.
What we do know is pretty simple, of that 30% some are free to play players and some may very well be people who have already paid something.
Point being, that it is not truely a direct 30% loss, it is simply 30% of lost *potential* ongoing revenue which is still a gamble that they might or might not spend anything at all.
I'd be willing to bet that most of the people in that 30% bracket atm, haven't paid anything at all.
For one thing, I don't play the game. I'm getting more enjoyment reading the forums. It's like an improv filled with well-timed tragedy, irony, and betrayal. Cryptic/PWE is truly an underdog story where you can't really decide whether to root for them or not, but their actions (or lack of) are more entertainment than any celebrity scandals.
And I posted to try and help keep things in perspective. It was a nice idea for a poll, one that might even be reviewed later. But there are other variables, such as people that don't go to the forums that could make up a HUGE percentage that's missing. You could also be right that the numbers MIGHT not change much. There's no way to know for sure....
Of course, but a sample size of 300 when the, lets say for sake of argument, the total people on these forums would be maybe around 30'000, is more then enough to get an indicative result.
Indicative results are all thats needed when it comes to poll,s you don't need 30'000 votes from 30'000 people to determine wether or not you following choices will be wise or not.
We addressed that in the poll, Stay but play for free and Stay but keep on paying RL money for zen. 42% will stay and pay RL money for zen and 18% will stay and play for free which have the potential to pay for zen and almost 10% are still deciding which still have the potential to be coaxed around depending on the actions of PW.
30% would leave out right. This value however can be broken up as we said.
I really do enjoy the game. I have my complaints but they're very limited in nature and quite a few would be resolved with a full fix of the exploits that have been found so far as well as additional testing to find more.
I have not spent any money in the game so far but would if the game proved that it could withstand the test of time and be something that I play for longer than a month.
1. I agree with the wipe and would keep playing
2. I'd keep playing but it would anger me to never again paying
3. I'd be angered and leave the game
4. Not sure / Undecided
You're lumping 1 as I've payed and would continue to, and 2 as I haven't payed and still won't but I'll keep playing creating an artificial sense of agreement with you.
No, you are simply taking it out of context.
The results are simple:
Yes, I will stay and spend RL money on Zen = 42%. Self explanatory.
Yes, but only for free = 18%. This value can include current free to play players AND people who have already spent money on the game. You can't determine peoples emotional reasoning behind why they would choose this one, people might simply be waiting to see if it will become worth spending money on, people may just be playing for free while waiting for the next game, what ever, it can be hardly treated as an angered reason.
Not sure, have to sleep on it = 9%. This value can include all the above.
No, I wouldn't = 30%. This value can include all the above. This is the only one that could include an angered emtional reasoning.
So you can read in to it and skew those emotions somehow in to it all you like, it is all self explanatory.
This isn't physc class 101.
If you say yes and I am still willing to pay Zen, you are pretty much saying you enjoy the game.
The only selection that can even remotely be treated as a angered emotional response is No, I wouldn't.
It is simply, self explanatory.
For the past week I have been advocating this entire issue, I could of been ingame exploiting it.
Nice try though.
The fact is, the more players have invested in time and money, the less likely they are to pull out just over a wipe. But when I can't play my character of choice because some afk-pvp farmer has it locked up, when I get kicked out of pvp teams because I am a legitimate pvper then I can assure you--I will cease to play and pay!
I reported my issues to a GM... I have been ignored. I wont pay to be ignored for very long.
In otherwords.... these afk pvpers are interfering with my game play... and you bet Im pissed.
It is a very good start and this patch comes out today. AFK PvP farming is removed, but there are certain ways around it like putting an encounter ability on auto by messing with the keyboard. Also Guardian Fighter's no longer one-shotting bosses makes this exploit meaningless. All that is needed is how they will deal with the exploiters. A person that stumbled into this exploit should be punished less than someone that farmed bosses. I would hate to get my account banned just because I did not know the armor I was using was giving a too high damage bonus.